"I'm tired of the 'Christian' public school bashers going unanswered."

[Cell Whitman]

This lady tells Franklin Graham, who proves daily he is a very small man, a very small man, that he is full of shit.

via the best blog on the net:
http://mainstreambaptist.blogspot.com/

from:

http://ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=7762

Franklin Graham Bashes 'Godless' Schools

A Kentucky educator criticized evangelist Franklin Graham for bashing public schools in a letter promoting a program aimed at equipping youth to share their faith.

Graham, president and CEO of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, began a June letter promoting a new ministry called "Dare to be a Daniel" like this:

"Are you saddened as you watch our country's public schools systematically eliminate any trace of God from the classroom? Are you sick and tired of the fact that students can barely even mention the Name of Jesus Christ without fear of punishment or the threat of lawsuit?"...

"It's a shame and a disgrace that our society has come to this. It seems the government lacks the moral will and vision to do anything. Many times, biased, liberal courts only make matters worse. School boards often bend and bow to secular forces that are hostile to God and His standards."

Graham said there is "no question, the moral foundation that was laid by our forefathers--based on God's laws and principles--is being destroyed." The solution, he said, is to train the nation's youth to be "salt and light" in "a morally dark and sick society."

The materials promoting "Dare to be a Daniel" take a more positive tone, prompting Mary Ann Blankenship, executive director of the Kentucky Education Association, to protest. ...

"You have unfairly castigated the millions of Christian adults who see one of the places of their ministry the public schools and who live their faith every day in public schools," she said. "You have further needlessly criticized countless students who likewise express their faith, both through their deeds and their words, in public schools."

Blankenship, nearly a 35-year veteran of public education in three different states, said she has had "not one shred of firsthand experience" that would cause her to agree with Graham's assessment that "a godless agenda is often pushed upon children."

"That's just not true," she said. "I don't doubt that there may be a public school somewhere or even a school district somewhere that may be doing things that I don't approve of. But to make the generalization that public schools are 'godless' is unfair and hurtful." ...

Blankenship circulated her comments in an e-mail copied to EthicsDaily.com, in which she said, "I'm tired of the 'Christian' public school bashers going unanswered."

Watch Franklin's dad being interviewed by Woody Allen in 1969 from a time before conservatives poisoned political debate with their GOPAC memos, their Atwaters, their Roves, their lies and propaganda.

Watch part three here:

http://tesla.liketelevision.com/liketelevision/tuner.php?channel=1106&format=movie&theme=guide

[mike_c]

1. this rather misses the point....

Public schools SHOULD be "godless" and I find it pretty damned disturbing to hear christians defending public education as a vehicle for "their ministry" and "expressing their faith." I'm am completely in favor of public schools having a "godless agenda." It's time for christians to get their faith out of other peoples' faces.

[and-justice-for-all]

2. God belongs in the buildings that were built for it....

The numorus Churches that have polluted every social orifice possible, built with Tax Exemptions and I bet they dont claim those tips, oops Donations. Not everyone on the planet is Christian or even believes in superstitions and fairy tales, I will be damned if I will let my tax money to be used to teach that rubbish in PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

The cultist have enough Tax Free income to build their own schools, private schools. I am pretty sure to of the most prominet shamen in the xtian cult have managed to open universities in Arkansa and Flordia.

Franklin Graham can kiss my ass.

[Random_Australian]

3. Sorry to sound like I am harping here a-j-f-a, but this is a kind of

meeting place for atheists and religious people of all types, so we need to not use 'fairy tales'.

Don't worry though, in the atheist and agnostic forum, feel free to let fly, just not here.

Thanks! Don't worry about it much though, everyone says religion is a fairy tale at least once in here, and it is not all THAT much a bother, but needs to be avoided.

[MercutioATC]

7. I agree that the "fairy tale" reference isn't constructive, but

I think ajfa has a point with the general thrust of the argument.

We pay over $100k/yr for visiting clerics to say a prayer at the opening of every Congressional work day. We quibble about how much god is "too much god" in our schools. We give tax breaks and federal funding to "faith based" enterprises.

The only answer in a true Democracy (yes, I know...we're not a Democracy, we're a representative republic) is to completely separate the government from faith-based issues.

[Random_Australian]

12. Oh yeah, the main argument is sound alright, I was just putting in an

aside about terminology.

[and-justice-for-all]

13. I will consider your suggestion...

But likely I will not conceed..

[stevietheman]

4. I object to the corrollary idea that private religious schools...

are somehow of a higher quality than public schools.

With all the religious instruction, the kids who go to these schools have much less time for academic or job preparation curricula.

Further, when has proof ever been presented that the quality of the public schools is "so much worse" in comparison? It seems like biased anecdotes is all we get.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. Coupla things...

I am a public school teacher. I wear a cross. I take religious holidays off. I have a poster in my classroom that is a scripture (though it doesn't identify itself as a scripture) and it says "Love is patient, love is kind." Nobody has ever said boo to me about it. I have Muslim kids, Hindu kids, Jewish kids, Mormon kids and who knows what else and we all learn and have a cool time together.

Now, the concept of religious schools being more academic..well, I think around here that is true. I taught in an Episcopal school and have observed in the Catholic school and the local Baptish academy and they are all about a year ahead of the public schools. They don't spend a lot of time doing religious stuff..they all do attend chapel a couple of times a week. But the classes move quickly for one huge reason. If you have a child who has special needs you can ask him to leave. Public schools have to teach everyone. Private schools get to pick and choose. Most of the schools around here take ESE kids, but if they get too distracting to the other kids, then they are asked to leave.

Here in the public schools, I have taught a number of children who were literally barely conscious. But we teach them anyway. I always feel that somewhere under there something is going on.

[squarepants]

6. What I always want to know when

people talk about public schools being Godless is where were all of these people when prayer was taken out of the school? They complain and complain that it ISN'T in the schools anymore because of "liberals", yet not one of them bothered to protest to keep it IN the schools. Seems to me if they were so serious about prayer being there, they would've fought to keep it in. Also, my thing is, there are tons of preachers who make all kinds of money fleecing...um, I mean, getting tithes from their congregates, and are able to buy jets and million dollar homes. Why can't they take some of that money and open more religious schools where they can have as much prayer as they want? Seems they don't want to let go of all that money, though. They would rather complain and make everyone else's lives miserable. As for me, I believe in God, but don't think that prayer or any other religious prayer for that matter, should be in public schools classrooms. Everybody doesn't believe in a god, or they may have a different god than someone else. However, I don't see a problem with religious clubs if people want to get together and do that, and I don't have a problem if someone in school wants to pray to themselves, as long as they aren't bothering anyone else with it.

[Igel]

9. A lot of people did.

They protested--not in the streets by and large, that's not their style. They had laws putting prayer back in the classroom. Mostly at the state level.

But the branch of government that took prayer out of the classroom has consistently removed it. After 150 (or 90, depending which amendment you look at) years of being Constitutional, suddenly prayer in the classroom was found to have violated the constitution. It took no amendment to find a new constitutional right. It took somebody reinterpreting what the text at the time it was written, and for a few generations after its writing, was understood to mean.

It's one of the situations that ultimately gave rise to the phrase 'activist judges'.

Now it's to the point where school board lawyers, in order to avoid litigation, interpret things more strictly at times than the courts do.

[squarepants]

10. Well, I'm surprised.

I didn't hear anything about them trying to fight to keep it in. :shrug:

[Igel]

18. The main fight happened a long time ago,

and unless you were around the people doing the fighting you didn't notice it. Low key, fought in courts and legislatures, not in the streets and newspapers. This is pre-Christian Coalition. (Christian Coalition? Is that what they called themselves?)

Anyway, it surfaces from time to time. The entire 'moment of silence' legislative push was part of it, and it still surfaces here and there. A student-led prayer at football games in some podunk town was the latest hassle over prayer in schools.

On edit: I was in school when the first wave of court decisions were still making their way to enforcement 'on the ground'. I remember one kid in it must have been 8th grade English sent to the principal's office. She dared to have a Bible sitting on her desk, and was told that she could leave it home or have it confiscated. (The district's lawyers were more draconian than the law/court decisions required, in order to avoid litigation.)

[madeline_con]

16. Prayer is still allowed in public schools....

Forcing everyone to participate is what was taken out. (I still don't get the prayer at the huge assemblies and sporting events, though.)


Students have the right to religious expression. They can discuss their faith with other students at any time they're allowed to talk, like the lunchroom or recess. No harrasing is allowed.

They can write about their faith in essays if it's relevent to the subject and content of the assignment. By law, playing "holiday" music that mentions Jesus at a school "winter party" is prohibited.

[MercutioATC]

8. Thank you!

Parochial and private schools test higher for two reasons:

1) They get to choose whom they admit. It's easy to test higher than a public school when you have the option of eliminating the bottom 10% or so, and

2) Most private and public schools require some sort of tuition to be paid. Children who care about learning generally have parents who care about learning. If the parents are willing to PAY to send their children to primary school, they value education...and, chances are, quite a few of their children will, too (that's not even taking into consideration the whole socioeconomic issue).

[SPKrazy]

14. This Is Also A Reason Why Other Countries Test Higher

take Germany for instance

they have schools for kids that do better and schools for kids who aren't doing as well academically

they don't have the philosophy (for better or worse) to put everyone together in schools and consequently their college bound schools score higher on tests than American schools do

[TreasonousBastard]

11. Spot on, and it's called "adverse selection" which..

shows up in the oddest places and never fails to screw up rational discussion.

Public schools can be, and are, excellent in some suburbs and even city areas. Long before charter schools, NYC had special high schools like Bronx Science and Music&Art that required admissions tests and would throw you out simply if your grades fell. Private achools, religious or not, often have similar entrance requirements and will throw you out if you won't learn or are a disciplinary problem.

Parents who send their kids to these schools have the desire and the means to send them there, and are often far more interested in the kids' education than others.

I went to a public elementary school in NYC in a very good neighborhood that was full of kids who wanted to learn.

Then, I went to a Lutheran high school, and we had chapel in the morning for the Lutherans and one religion course per term for a year or two, but religion never interfered with the academic courses, which were first quality. And, it was full of kids who wanted to learn.

I suppose I could go on, but you know the pattern...

[madeline_con]

17. "... the desire and the means ..."

What really sucks is the fact that those of us with the desire, who lack the means, are forced to send our kids to schools where badly parented little disrespectful buttwipes consume far too much class time acting out and being idiots, which takes away valuable learning time from the other kids.

[cosmik debris]

15. Fact or fiction: Public schools are better than some think

Public schools perform favorably with private schools when students' income and socio-economic status are taken into account, according to a new report from the U.S. Education Department. The findings counter a popularly held notion, that private schools outperform public schools.

But the report has generated controversy due to what some call its overly low-key release, on a Friday evening. That spurred critics to charge that the Bush administration, long a supporter of private alternatives to public schools, was playing politics by burying data it doesn't like.

Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings calls her critics' charges ridiculous, saying the administration strongly supports public education. But, she says, the administration also believes parents should have choices.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5584516

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard//pubs/studies/2006461.asp

http://www.npr.org/documents/2006/jul/private_public_schools.pdf