An early apology

[hyphenate]

I have come to apologize. Not to anyone specifically, nor even to those who are here on DU, but a general apology to almost all Christians. I want to spare myself some grief later down the line when the passion inside of me explodes and I say something completely and totally nasty and malicious.

I won't mean it when it happens....well, I will mean it, but really only to a small group of Christians for whom I have nothing but contempt. And unfortunately, it might be worded such that many Christians will feel it's aimed at them as well, and I really don't want people to hate me or think that I am normally saying such horrid things about all Christians.

The trouble is, we really need to have more nicknames for the bad Christians. I call them the RRR most of the time, while qualifying it when I can to fundies, evangelicals or creationists. But as some are aware, not all evangelicals are nutcases, and some fundies and even some creationists (not a whole helluva lot, tho) are completely harmless. And so because of different meanings and different connotations, something gets lost in the translation and someone gets offended who shouldn't be.

I hate the RRR. There--I said it. No, you're right. I shouldn't "hate" anyone. I should be a good secular humanist and treat all people the same, regardless if they're good or bad. I mean, I would, but there is always this little voice in the back of my mind that says, "They would just as soon stick a shiv in your ribs if you gave them half a chance." Well, granted, that is a possibility, and yes, their tendentiousness does make me want to run them over with a tank, but they're people, just like you and me. And while they might not give a fuck about everyone else if their orgasmic dream of the rapture should ever take place, they do constitute human beings, I suppose. And while they do have a very nasty habit of being complete and utter hypocrites, with narrow-minded thinking, intolerance and complete and utter disregard for the feelings of others, they aren't aliens from some other planet who are here to eat our brains and turn us into their slaves.

I doubt if there are very many of such Christians here at DU. But they might be here, somewhere, afraid to come out and admit that they are part and parcel of the RRR. But there ARE lots of other Christians here, from moderates to very religious, from Unitarians to Catholics and every other denomination in between. And it is to them that I apologize, right now, right here, for anything you might construe as a possible flame or snarky comment. Because it isn't aimed at you. Really.

The true liberal (of which I believe I am one) doesn't expect anyone to change their religion to please anyone, and that is the solid truth. I don't care if someone worships Satan, God, Buddha, Kali, Zeus, Diane, Loki, Merlin or someone else. I don't care if someone finds great delight in incantations, potions, howling at the moon on a well lit night, or even if they drink blood and only come out at night. That's their prerogative. That's their freedom of religion at work, and it's nothing to me ultimately--people have to live with their own beliefs, and as long as they're not harming me, I don't care. As long as I don't have someone shoving a book into my face and telling me that they will be praying for my soul. When someone starts that shit, I want to grab something big, heavy and most likely metal and ram it into their heads. I am not, however, that violent a person, so I tend to stifle my anger and wreak havoc on the board after such an instance instead.

It's funny in a way: many fled Europe centuries ago to find religious freedom in the United States, just a colony at the time. And now, centuries later, much of Europe is secular and comfortable with it, and the U.S. is faced with scum sucking pigs who are trying to force THEIR religions down the throats of the rest of us! If I were just a smidgen more action oriented, a fist might suffice in any future incidents I have with the RRR, but I'm not. The Type A personality forces me to suppress the anger and disgust and try to use the energy for something less physical. Of course, that scenario doesn't work. :shrug:

Anyhow, here's my apology. And please forgive me when I rant about the soulless assholes in the RRR who just don't get it. We don't WANT to hear about your goddamned fucking asshole of a god. We don't want to hear about your "love of God" which works out fine for some things, and not so well for other things. We don't want to hear you climaxing with "his" name on your lips. We don't want to here you trying to make the universe look like a crib for a wicked child god who is as temperamental as his benighted followers. We don't want to hear you whine or protest when the rest of us are fed up with your immature baiting, and we don't want to hear from you--period. Go fuck yourselves. You might enjoy the orgasm more that way when you actually know what you're doing.

[MADem]

1. RRR??

Did I miss it? I read it twice...

Rotten Religious Right?

Religious Right Rejects?

Rigid Religious Right?

Ridiculous Religious Right?

[hyphenate]

2. Most of them will work

But it stands for "Radical Religious Right."

[hootinholler]

7. Personally I prefer talibornagain...

But I'm an odd duck.

-Hoot

[hyphenate]

14. That's a good one, too

It's just shorter for me to type 3 letters. :D

[Maat]

55. I knew it stood for "Radical Religious Right,"

but I like "Rigid Religious Right."

I'm one of the believers (non-Christian, panentheist, universalist, and Religious Scientist), who wants to unite with progressive non-believers and believers to ADDRESS the RRR.

Maybe it should be the RRRR - Radical AND Rigid Religious Right.

I understand the anger at the RRR these days; mine is particularly acute.

I'm near the Mt. Soledad Cross. Most Liberal Christians I know, as well as other believers and non-believers, believe in a strong separation of church and state, and want the cross gone. It's a two-to-one ration of hardrighties to progressives, though, and we have our work cut out for us.

Let's unite to address the RRR.

In Solidarity,

[beam me up scottie]

3. Wow!

Outstanding essay!!!

And an apology I have made here more than once, I feel your pain.:hug:

Recommended, hell yeah.

[hyphenate]

15. Thanks!

I appreciate it. I just decided I didn't want to ruffle any more feathers than I needed to right now!

[Wheezy]

4. ...

"We don't want to hear you climaxing with "his" name on your lips."

I find it's best not to have sex with them, then. ;)

[roguevalley]

5. Around my house we call the RRR 'square heads'. Old family

term for these people.

[Jamastiene]

32. That term just makes me think

of SpongeBob. I KNOW he ain't one of them. He's a gay sponge, remember. :P

[hyphenate]

16. Ewwww!

You planted a truly nasty mental picture in my mind. Now it's going to take some doing to get rid of it. Ick!

[Random_Australian]

6. This thread may well help bring peace to the forum, so K&R.

[Lerkfish]

8. wonderful post, thanks!

as a liberal christian, I am in agreement with most of it.

especially when you say: The true liberal (of which I believe I am one) doesn't expect anyone to change their religion to please anyone, and that is the solid truth. I don't care if someone worships Satan, God, Buddha, Kali, Zeus, Diane, Loki, Merlin or someone else. I don't care if someone finds great delight in incantations, potions, howling at the moon on a well lit night, or even if they drink blood and only come out at night. That's their prerogative. That's their freedom of religion at work, and it's nothing to me ultimately--people have to live with their own beliefs, and as long as they're not harming me, I don't care.

I am a liberal christian, and I feel the same way. IF someone wants to talk to me about religion, I'm all set, but I find getting in people's faces is counterproductive. Also, I respect the myriad of beliefs that the human species adopts, I think they are all ways of trying to understand the infinite.

good post, thanks!

if you're looking for a term, I call what your refer to as "RRR" christians "modern pharisees". It fits because they think themselves holier than everyone else and in a fascist way enforced their views on everyone else before Christ came along.

[Jo March]

12. I agree, Lerkfish

There are only a handful of DUers - on both sides - who get ugly. I'm ashamed to say that I have gotten ugly in the heat of the moment.

I'm like you - if you are wanting to talk to me about my beliefs, then I'm more than happy to do so. I won't ram anything down anyone's throat or try to force convert anyone.

I cannot abide the name-calling, the anger and the hatred that bubbles up in the R/T forum. It gets nasty and I just get so depressed reading it.

I use "pharisees" as well. It fits those on the religious right perfectly.

Most on this forum just want to discuss R/T and not start some kind of holy jihad to convert everyone to religion or to atheism.

DUers are some of the most intelligent folks on the Internets (even when the tubes get clogged up) and I love reading some of the discussions. I just hope that we (myself included) can remember to stay civil during the heat of the discussion.

Love and peace, :loveya:

Arnie

[hyphenate]

18. You have a point

That I would like to explore to some degree. I was raised a Catholic, but found it completely suffocating and couldn't really get into the whole church scene as I was growing up. The clincher was when I was getting confirmed and they wouldn't let me choose the name I wanted for my confirmation name because it wasn't "a saint's name." (For the record, the name was "Lee" and not some bizarre or strange one) I failed to get the difference, and to this day think that there are often more rules than we really need, and since most of them (in the Catholic faith) were made up by the religious leaders and not Jesus or the Apostles, I felt the restrictions were compltely unwarranted.

Over the years, I've dabbled in learning something about quite a number of other faiths and beliefs. I was quite interested in other philosophies, and eventually found some comfort in a diverse number of specific ideas, but not one set of beliefs. I decided that, for me, if something could be drawn out to a conclusion without any laws of nature being broken, it was worth investigating. Thus, I find myself believing in a spiritual existence, the possibility of reincarnation and its link to Karma, and other such similar things. I realize these things are more of a metaphysical belief system than a religious one, but that's fine--I don't question what others have come to accept, so they should allow me that same privilege.

This doesn't mean that I'm not curious sometimes as to what others believe, because I am. It has always been a real mystery to me the differences between the many branches of Protestantism, and how those differences are manifested in the actual practice of the group. To an outsider like myself, the differences appear to be nominal, and hardly worth fighting wars over, but to those who are in that group, there must be something I'm missing to make it worthwhile.

For that reason, I would find myself asking questions, not to change my beliefs, but to understand the beliefs of others. Unfortunately, the only ones who seem willing to "share" are the ones I don't want to listen to! It's difficult to "like" those who are so bold that they are more than happy to tell you that you are going to hell if you don't listen to them! And I "do" know what they believe in, and know that they are wrong to the point of absurdity.

It is always a good thing to be polite and considerate when you are interested in something that someone else is saying, and I think here at DU we have the intelligence and common sense to inquire on a polite basis about things we are want to know more about.

[hyphenate]

17. To me

That's the major point I guess I was aiming for--acceptance. I guess that's one of the reasons I'm so hell bent on denouncing these hypocrites--their need to interfere with the rights of everyone else. My fundie (now ex-)friend spits out that I'm an "evolutionist" and "non-believer" as though she were swearing, without even considering that what I believe is my own choice. And she insists that her fundie friends "pray" for me. I'd been tolerant of her extreme beliefs with nary a critical word for a long time, and even went so far to accommodate her request not to use "goddamn" in front of her. But when I realized she was infringing on MY rights, I decided the gloves had to come off, and I needed to show her that she was wrong in criticizing my choices. She said I "deeply hurt" her when I referred to her type as "fucking Christian fundies" and it was at that moment that I knew I had lost my long time friend forever. Since I suggested she see a shrink, I have yet to hear back from her.

[Jamastiene]

33. I like your term mostly because

it is nonspecific. I posted something the other day with a nasty quote in the headline to get Christians on DU to read, but I honestly didn't know how to get Jewish people on DU to read it as well. The nasty headline was a quote by a right wing Christian, but the story involved right wing Jewish people as well. The only thing about the right wing Jewish people in the story was that they made no really eye catching headlines in what they said.

I agree that we need a term to describe people who use religion to hurt other people. I just don't know what term would be best.

[William769]

9. Just differentiating between good Christians & bad Christians

will make me happy. :)

[neebob]

10. Why hate them?

They've been brainwashed and swindled. And you want to run over them with tanks and stick metal spikes through their heads? You could kill them all, you know, and their leaders, and still be left with millions of narcissisociopsychopathic assholes who'd just dream up new ways to fool the credulous for purposes of amassing wealth and power.

[hyphenate]

19. You are right

about not hating them, but it's difficult when someone is repudiating everything you have to say as though you were devilspawn, shoving a bible into your face and telling you that you are going to be "left behind" for not believing that the earth was created just 10,000 years ago, and that one must believe every single word in the bible as literally from the lips of Jesus Christ. At that point, the solid metal object (like a lamp, for instance!!) seems a more reasonable weapon of choice. :D (j/k of course!)

[neebob]

26. I have a hard time imagining people who don't shut up

and leave you alone when you ask them to, because I'm surrounded by people you don't have to ask in the first place. Even my Mo-mom leaves me alone, for the most part, in her way. You have asked the Bible-shoving repudiater(s) to leave you alone, yes?

If they bug you that much, then I think you should do whatever it takes to get it out of your system - within the law, of course. Maybe instead of writing a book, you could create a video game where you get to bean the fundies with lamps - kinda like whack-a-mole, only with fundies and lamps - and tanks, too, if you want.

[hyphenate]

29. You have an idea

there, Maybe someone with gaming experience can come up with something. :)

[Jamastiene]

34. Oh to Whack A Fundy.

I can just see it. Fred Phelps pops up and we get to whack his wooden little head, then Falwell next, then Pat Robertson. The pattern could change. There are so many fundies we could whack over their wooden thick skulls in a game like that. That's a kickass idea.

[neebob]

47. Well, I could be wrong, but

I'm pretty sure their Left Behind game has killing. So why couldn't we have one where we jump out of a tank and hit them with a lamp? I don't know about running over them with the tank - maybe just run over their toes to immobilize them, and then, "Kakunnnggggg!" with the lamp.

And the more fundies you clobber, the bigger and more elaborate the lamps get. Maybe you start out with a flashlight, and work your way up to like chandeliers and street lights and those big searchlight things like they used at the World Trade Center.

Oh, and you also get superhuman strength to pick up the bigger lights.

[Jamastiene]

48. Wow, you just inspired another weapon.

Back when I took the electrical classes, the teacher would joke about wiring a lamp backwards. He called it the "Mother in Law Lamp," meaning basically that if your mother-in-law asks you to wire a lamp for her, you can do away with her by wiring it backwards. I know. It's sick humor, but it could be a guerilla warfare item in the game. The Fundy Lamp would shock them when they tried to turn it on. :evilgrin:

[EVDebs]

11. Read Donald Miller's Blue Like Jazz

Even those IN the church can't stand some who act hypocritically. How do you love people like that ? Keep trying. My freeper bro in law for example is very hard for me but I'm working on it and looking on the bright side daily.

[bloom]

13. You could refer to the "Christian Zionists"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x84791

I guess that would be CZs for short.

As is described on Democracy Now!'s show today - these are the people who are loyal to Bush* no matter what he does.

And now they have a new lobby - Christians United for Israel (CUFI) - but they have been a force for 20+ years.


And they don't necessarily support the Jews of Israel - as much as the idea of Israel - for rapture purposes, etc. :yoiks:

[hyphenate]

20. That's exactly

the subject of discussion I once had with the fundie. She said that Israel had to control the Holy City if the Rapture and "end times" were to come. And GWB and this administration has made it perfectly clear that they're willing to let that happen. I've seen it as just another crazy and utterly ridiculous scenario, but we can no longer discount the nutcases when it appears that they have set up a self-fulfilling situation which is dangerous to us all.

[Jamastiene]

35. That may be divisive for the Jewish people on DU though.

I'm not sure and I am definitely not speaking for them, but the whole anti "zion" angle may just alienate them.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. Lovely rant!

Now I have a question, if you care to share. Do you come across many RRR's in your daily life, or are these folks simply the ones you read about online...the ones making themselves very vocal in our political life?

This is a real question, not a hypothetical snark. I'm interested in what folks are experiencing with these people face to face. I'm trying to get a grip on what is going on.

While I live in the Bible Belt, I really don't have much contact with RRR's. I'm a teacher, and my colleagues are rather laid back. I do get the occasional parent, however.

Care to share?

[Finder]

22. Hey Grannie...

I think those who live in the bible belt are rarely targeted by the RRR since it is the norm to be Christian down there. Up here in the Northeast we have been targeted for assimilation/conversion.lol

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. Good point

I was born and raised in NJ but that was BEFORE the rapture folks. I wonder what it is like up there now?

[Jamastiene]

37. Not true, actually.

I live in the Bible Belt and do not consider myself Christian. As a matter of fact, many of us do not consider ourselves Christian here. We do get targeted and ganged up on by those types of conversion bent right wing Christians on a regular basis.

It is precisely the reason I am hoping to move one day. Many of my friends found a way to move already. Some are still here and suffering through the same daily barrage of insults and outright hatred that I am. I have learned to hang my head down and trudge on with my all too easy to shatter hopes and dreams anyhow. Some have turned to drugs and alcohol to numb the pain, but still live here and still go through it on a daily basis as well. The only difference is that some of us hope for better. The rest have been destroyed by those type of people and the habits they started using to cope with it only make matters worse. As a matter of fact the drug subculture here is mostly made up of people who are sick and tired of the daily hatred they have to endure for being nonChristian in an obviously Christian nation.

The right wing fundy Christians may be the majority down here in the Bible Belt, but I'd say there are quite a few nonChristians AND progressive Christians down here as well. Oddly enough, both the liberal Christians and the nonChristians seem to be routinely called satan worshippers and heathens and worse.

[hyphenate]

25. Well, I used to be able to say

it was all the idiots out there like Falwell, Robertson, Graham and their ilk. But it's not. My now former best friend, Barb, went fundie several years ago and has grown more and more nuts. I've written about her in GD, but just this month she went down to Kentucky to meet this guy she'd been corresponding with for six months, and she married him the first day, August 1. She didn't tell anyone except her daughter--the rest of her family was left completely in the dark, and I only found out about it when she and I went on our camping trip the last week in July. I told her if she was going to marry this idiot, I wanted nothing else to do with her, and I told her she was a fool. He's been married three times already, and supposedly runs his own ministry at the local prison.

So, yeah; I have had to deal with it on a continuing basis. There was also someone on another board I knew who was as fundie as you can get--middle class, Bible college, her father is a doctor who works with people like Randall Terry.

Barb swallowed the whole shebang. She is/was an intelligent woman who worked in the school system, but since her "rebirth" she has come to disrespect anyone who doesn't share her newfound views. She spits out the word "secular" as though it were a swear, and brands me an "evolutionist and believer in abortion." To me, those aren't a big deal, but to her, it's anathema.

She's tried to tell me that evolution is the devil's way of testing God's believers, because the devil put all the fossils there, and that the earth really is only 10,000 years old. She says that the Rapture is coming and only those who have accepted God will be taken. She believes every single word in the bible as literally from the lips of Jesus, and that nothing else matters. She's gotten tattoos on various parts of her body, including one on her neck with the word "adhonai" there, and across her whole back, all related to Jesus and God. And heaven forbid that you say "goddamn" in front of her!

Anyhow, I decided that I couldn't deal with her narrow-mindedness anymore and her complete self-involvement, and even though we've been friends for 22 years, she obviously didn't care enough to let me know what was going on in her life, so I said goodbye. I needed to give myself a break from all the drama she had contributed to it at one time or another, and life might ease up some now that I've decided to free up the portion formerly devoted to Barb and her piousness.

[Jamastiene]

36. I can't speak for the OP but I live in

a small town called Rockingham, NC. I have been through some horrible situations with those types of people. I have been alienated so much in this place that I have been withdrawn for most of my adult life because of it.

Like I said, I don't know about the OP, but the horrible stuff I have been through is available through many of my past posts. If you find a way to read them and start from my first rabble rousing anti-ALL-Christian posts on DU to my more recent reconciliatory tone, you will see that many Christians on DU have changed my views from all bad to some may be good. This is not to say that I won't still argue with some Christians on DU, because I do feel that some on here are really not that compassionate toward those of us who have had to go through bodily harm at the hands of right wing Christians. It's way more complicated than I could ever possibly explain in one or two posts.

My posts haven't been deleted a lot lately, so I must be progressing in my view of Christianity as...well...more complicated than that too.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

40. Would it upset you

if I asked for a couple specific examples? I'm in no way arguing, but trying to feel what it would be like. First, how do people know you aren't Christian? Are these folks at work on where you live, or in the stores, or what? Is it a cultural thing, like you don't dress the way they think you should?

My son and daughter-in-law don't attend any church and she is an atheist. I don't think they feel the same level of discrimination that you do, though. Maybe Tallahassee is more metropolitan because of the universities?

Can you share any without getting too bummed out about it?

[Jamastiene]

43. That makes a big difference.

I live in a rural area. Everybody knows everybody. I don't dress the way they think I should dress for sure, but none of what has happened to me had to do with how I dress other than comments that have been made. To that, I say "sticks and stones."

The worst thing that happened was that I was raped in the name of God years ago. Long story short, my boss was on me day after day about wanting me to date this guy and that guy (customers who would come and go.) She did it day after day and I finally had had enough. I told her I was gay.

You would have thought I told her I was the anti-Christ. I honestly think she would have had more respect for the anti-Christ. I guess you have to understand the version of Christianity that is common in this area. When I told my boss that though, all hell broke loose. She told anyone and everyone what I said. I have since learned to be oppressed and keep my head down.

I had preachers calling my house preaching at me, telling my I was choosing a lifestyle that would send me to hell. How they got my number, I don't know. I had people stopping me in the grocery stores telling me I needed to make myself straight or go to hell. For years after the rape, that sort of harrassment continued until I damn near killed myself to try to get away from them.

Then my boss insisted I go to a strip show with her and some of her friends. Like I said, you have to understand the version of Christianity that is the predominant form here. Everything is find except being gay or being a feminist. Everything else is fine with them. I was only 20 years old and a very innocent 20 years old at that. I knew most Chip n' Dale type dancers were gay though, so I thought it would be no big deal to humor the woman just to shut her up. I had no idea what they were going to do next. The "strip show" turned out to be a block building in the middle of nowhere.

Without sharing too many of the gory details or reliving the Hell I experienced that night, I was raped and my boss started a chant of "All she needs is the right man to straighten her out" and "rape that lesbian, show her the love of God." while it was happening. She didn't stop there. As her business was only a small time business and I was being paid under the table, I felt as if I had no choice but to stay there and continue to work. I started drinking and doing drugs as hard as I could; anything to numb the pain. I did it for years. The internalized homophobia they instilled in me from those experiences nearly destroyed me. It became like a poison. I forced my own self later to try sex with a guy who was halfway nice to me. It felt so mechanical and wrong. I realized later that I was really raping myself by forcing myself to try to change my orientation. Reparative therapy is no laughing matter.

Needless to say, I want nothing to do with Christianity, personally, as a result of that experience. I have zero tolerance right back at someone who uses terms or phrases like: "sexual preference" or "chooses to be gay" or "hate the sin, lover the sinner" or anything else I see as homophobic. Like I said, there are a few great loving Christians on DU and I will listen to them and talk to them, but my experience where I live and grew up has been horrendous and even if I don't directly bring up the subject, it is all around me. I hear people making comments every day. They may not be talking directly to me, but I still have to hear it all the time. Talking about who is going to hell and who is not seems to be their favorite pastime around here.

I think someone else posted further down who is a Christian and lives in rural NC too. Her details about how they are are much better said than mine. I urge you to read what she said. I am beginning to believe that metro vs. rural argument when it comes to how crazy or how fundy or how right wing people really are. You have less choices in rural areas. I think that may be the difference. I'm not so sure though.

I don't want to relive much more of it than that. I almost died the night I tried to force myself after the rape. That was all I needed to snap me out of trying to make myself straight. I took 17 valium (all I had left in the bottle) and drank a fifth of Schmirnoff. Later, I couldn't breathe and my body felt like it was floating up toward the ceiling. I could feel the prickly texture of the ceiling on the side of my face even though in the back of my mind that I wasn't really up there. I'll never forget the feeling (emotional) that gave me. I must say I don't attribute it to God or the Devil, just maybe a part of me that was trying to tell me that I could die if I didn't take care of myself and learn to ignore them. They would have me suffer needlessly. If I go to hell when I die for being gay, then so be it. It sure beats not knowing and wasting my life in an unhappy marriage to someone I could never really love. I won't do it.

[Finder]

49. Wow, what an ordeal...

Have any of the group been prosecuted that you know of? Doesn't sound like you were the first or the last they did this to.

[Jamastiene]

52. We had/have no hate crimes law in NC

for sexual orientation. That would automatically get them off the hook anyhow. The local police here are corrupt and the courts are even worse. They routinely slap violent offenders on the wrist, depending on what they did. After thinking about it and how I didn't do the right thing after it happened (go to a hospital) I realized that I didn't stand a chance. The boss was a respected member of the community around here. It would have been my word against hers and I would have been mentally raped all over again.

I finally went through my own hell on earth and then started to recover when I found a good therapist. From what I have heard, karma or whatever it is called, has gotten her now. I'm satisfied with that.

In the meantime, I plan on concentrating on my education and moving forward to get out of here one day. The mentality my boss displayed toward me is the average mentality around here. You can find a few people who don't share that sort of mentality, but they are few and far between.

[Maat]

56. That's the worst abuse of power that I've ever seen.

As the Vice President of the local PFLAG (Parents, Family, Friends of Lesbians and Gays, I support you on your life's journey fully. I'm sending positve, healing energy your way! Good things to you!

Take care,

[Jamastiene]

58. I am grateful for your positive, healing energy.

I need all I can get as I try to continue to piece my life back together again.

Btw, I love the "peacemonger" phrase in your sigline. I have never heard that one before. That's a great one.

[Maat]

59. I turned into a sincere peacemonger when I became a parent.

At that moment, I could not imagine the horror of any government taking my beloved child away from me, or any VALID reason for it doing so (other than perhaps if U.S. territory was invaded, and Americans were in danger from imminent deadly force on a mass scale). I want to spread the idea of peaceful conflict resolution, like rightwingers spread aggression around.

Take care!!

[hyphenate]

45. It appears your situation

is more dire than my own. Living in Massachusetts and being raised here as well, I have not had to endure any nightmares regarding my beliefs. Growing up, I was raised a Catholic, until my confirmation, and then it was "goodbye, church!" I had--and have--no desire to becomes involved in that kind of organized religious group ever again.

When I learned of Barb's involvement, first with Joyce Meyer and then with this ultra-conservative bible group, I wasn't sure what to expect, but now I realized none of it is good. I thought perhaps it might be good for her to one extent and that was to get her out of a deep depression, but the narrow-minded thinking and intense intolerance have only aggravated her already deep seated low self esteem, and this is one reason I can not view the RRR as anything more than another cult. It might be larger than many other cults, but the thinking is definitely of that caliber. Any group that forces you to give up questions, to follow the rule of the church so rigidly and doesn't allow for any wavering of any kind can not be looked at as a church with any purpose other than to enslave the minds of its congregation.

I really hope you are able to get the hell out of NC as the oppression you're suffering from can only get worse as long as this regime is in office. My best wishes for that.

[Jamastiene]

46. Thank you for your kind comments.

What you said about the low self-esteem problem: I agree. Your friend will not recover from low self esteem as long as she is involved with intolerant hateful people like that. I didn't even begin to see myself as human again until I had the near death (?) experience. Later, I started talking to RevCheesehead and yes, atheists and agnostic and others on DU. Eventually, I started to realize that yes, I am human after all. Not perfect, but still not exactly horrible.

[Shipwack]

24. I think of them as "White Coffin Christians"...

From the phrase in the Bible that describes how some people seem pure on the outside, but inside they are rotten.

[ms liberty]

27. I call them the Rapture Cult...

when I'm speaking of them as a group, and Rapture Cultists when I speak of them individually. I live among them, here in (very) rural NC. I'm past the point where I'm nice about it anymore. They'd snatch my rights away in a heartbeat if they could, just because I'm not as wacked out as they are. I'm a Christian, but I'm not one of "them" - and that's the bottom line. If you don't agree with them completely, you're not a "good" Christian, and you're going to hell, and they'll smugly tell you so with a sanctimonious, self-righteous attitude. Of course, I am generalizing, not EVERY christian person in the county is that way, but enough of them are that it feels like some bizarre neo-con religious prison sometimes. I am way too liberal for this place.

[salvorhardin]

28. Is dispensational pre-millennialism too specific?

As a atheist I try not to broad-brush all Christians but I really struggle sometimes to separate the religious extremists who would have theocracy from the liberal Christians or even the normal run-of-the-mill evangelical Christians. Certainly those are all forms of Christianity but most Christians will shy away from the extremists and state that they do no believe the extremists are practicing Christianity as they know it. So it really helps to have specific labels. So I'm wondering if you think dispensational pre-millennialism is too specific.

[Jamastiene]

39. You must live in Richmond County.

It's the same exact way here. I have quit trying to be a Christian at all, but I get what you are saying. I totally and completely understand where you are coming from in talking about their attitudes. They are so pompous and self righteous. They honestly think they get to decide who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell and if you dare try to point out that it's not their decision, they say the Bible says you are bad and you are going to Hell for not agreeing with them.

I sure am glad someone else lives in a county similar to Richmond County in that respect. Maybe we can compare notes sometime. It sounds like your situation is very similar to mine.

[NAO]

30. You must learn to love the Christian, while hating the Christianity

[Jamastiene]

38. LOL

:rofl:

That sounds fair enough in some cases.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

41. Ouch!

[Jamastiene]

31. It just amazes me that some Christians on DU

understand that when someone is ranting about Christians, in general, they really mean right wing Christians most of the time. Yet others refuse to see it that way even if you try to explain it to them that you were not talking about all Christians. It is almost as if those certain ones are right wing Christians and only pretend not to be for some reason.

In order to properly rant about the Christians with the "Praise God, pass the ammo, rape that lesbian, kill that gay man, beat that Jew into submission, vote Republican, beat any wives who who happen to disagree on anything ever, molest children and blame the gays again, and date only inside own race" type mentality, we nonChristians have to repeatedly type "right wing" or "religious right" or "fundy" or "so-called" in front of the word "Christian." There seems to be no one standard of how to address those specific Christians when we try to show our pain and/or anger at the latest assault we have had to endure at their hands.

Maybe our better bet would be to take a poll in ALL the religious forums to decide what would be the best word to use in describing people who use religion to hurt people. That way it would stop the perceived persecution felt by many Christians on DU and embolden all of us to fight together against the real enemies of democracy, the right wingnuts.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

42. I like the word radical

I use it a lot. Works for me. There are radical Xtians and radical Muslims and radical Jews and radical Wiccans and radical atheists.

They all harsh your mellow, you know?

[Jamastiene]

44. That could possibly work, but

sometimes people can believe some pretty radical stuff and no declare war on half the country with their hared. :hi:

Maybe if we keep brainstorming, we could come up with something that will work. Radical is probably close though. The only thing I can come up with is right wing Christians or right wing Jew, or right wing (fill in the religion or lack of religion.) There are right wing atheists too, so that is why I included lack of religion in there.

[Goblinmonger]

51. But there are left-wing Christians

that scare me, too. There are some that are still anti-gay because their religion tells them to be (though they may mask it under "hate the sin, love the sinner" BS) as well as other prejudices. Perhaps we need to identify the Christians we (well, at least that I) like as progressive Christians which would make the "others" (man, I can't wait for Lost to start again), non-progressive, or--in an effort to give people here someone else to bash--aprogressive Christians.

Just so you know, that use of asides above is often how my Literature classes go--though my claim to fame with students is that I NEVER forget where I was and where I was heading. NEVER. Of course I turned 40 this summer, so perhaps that skill will be leaving me soon.

[Jamastiene]

53. I understand the asides.

I can carry two lines of thought at the same time sometimes.

Well, one good one here is RevCheeseHead. She never says that whole "Hate the sin, love the sinner" crap. I hate it when people say that too, btw.
Off the top of my head, she is the best one I can name.

I'm leaning toward the RRR (as in Radical Religous Right) as of the moment. Just typing RRR is a whole lot easier than spelling out all the other qualifiers. After a while, spelling out one or the other gets tiresome.

[Goblinmonger]

54. Some kids like it

It is almost like the MTV generation they are trained to be. They don't miss a beat when I go from Huck Finn to Public Enemy to Family Guy and back to Huck Finn.

Anyway. There are great theists on here. Lots of them. Grannie kicks ass. Even most of the ones I fight with (with the exception of 2-3 that have been silent lately) are pretty damn cool and make me think about the things I am saying.

[Jamastiene]

57. If only we could get them to form an alliance with us to

calm things down a bit and bring the discussions to a more civilized point.

[Evoman]

50. I just can't see how you would be a radical atheist, Grannie

I can see a liberal atheist be a radical liberal or a radical communist, but how can one be a radical atheist. Lol..is it someone who REALLY has no belief in god? I have never, in all my life, met someone who had a radical angenda based on atheism...its always been based on something else.

I'm not trying to say atheist are better or anything, mind you. I'm just saying that (and I am not trying to be offensive, but it illustrated my point) that be an atheist radical would be like being a A-Zeus or A-Santa radical...it doesn't make sense.

Have you ever met a christian radical? Have you ever met a liberal radical? Have you ever met a radical conservative? Have you ever met a communist radical? Have you ever met an atheist radical?

I have met all of the above, with one exception. Guess what the exception was?