Thoughts and prayers for his Holiness, John Paul II, please.

[Cuban_Liberal]

I fear the end is near.

Ave Maria
Gratia plena
Maria, gratia plena
Maria, gratia plena
Ave, ave dominus
Dominus tecum
Benedicta tu in mulieribus
Et benedictus
Et benedictus fructus ventris
Ventris tuae, Jesus.
Ave Maria

Ave Maria
Mater Dei
Ora pro nobis peccatoribus
Ora pro nobis
Ora, ora pro nobis peccatoribus
Nunc et in hora mortis
Et in hora mortis nostrae
Et in hora mortis nostrae
Et in hora mortis nostrae
Ave Maria

:cry:

[JohnKleeb]

1. Sure man

He'll be united with his loved ones though in the end though.

[FarLeftRage]

2. He's got mine

And then some...

[ThorsHammer]

123. Mine too (nt)

[saracat]

3. Doesn't he just have the flu, or is it worse? I don't listen to MSM much

[JohnKleeb]

6. He has the flu but he's quite ill as is

[terrya]

10. If I were a cardinal, I'd start packing my bags for Rome.

I don't think he'll last out the week, personally. Yes, he's been in very ill health for a while.

[JohnKleeb]

18. I just hope the next pope aint opus dei

please let it be one of those liberation theology guys.

[Norbert]

19. At his age the flu can be a huge problem.

Hope he makes it through.

[RUDUing2]

138. he is suffering from secondary complications...accute respiratory distress

which is what usually kills in relation to the flu. Flu itself isn't the problem it is the secondary respiratory problems that occur that normally lead to death from the flu.

[Spider Jerusalem]

4. Hail Mary, full of grace...

the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

(And, I'm lapsed, but...I'll light a candle for him.)

[Thtwudbeme]

5. I wish you had posted this in the Religion Group

I am Episcopalian, and on my way to Divinity school....

I understand where you are coming from; but, talking about this man's work could very well start a flame war.

Stephanie

[JohnKleeb]

7. Yes thats what I am afraid of

[Thtwudbeme]

9. Yep.

I wanted to love him as a Pope; I wish we could discuss this in another forum.

[saracat]

12. I left the Church but I will light a candle.

And isn't it sad that some people would flame anyone's illness or passing? I disagree it belongs in Religion alone BTW. Ther Pope is, whether one agress with him or not, an International figure! And statesman.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

27. This isn't about being Catholic . It is about the pending demise

of a world figure. The poe is also a political head of state and a Nobel Prize winner. Sheesh. Does this mean no one who isn't black can post anything about Nelson Mandela?

[Thtwudbeme]

56. When a man has as much influence

over as many people as he did, then yes...this belongs in a different forum.

Sorry.

And I am sorry; I wanted to respect this Pope...you don't know the mixed feelings that I have for him.

[pres2032]

31. then don't read this thread

we're not forcing you to open this thread up

[Dookus]

39. as in real life

if people make religiosity a public event, they shouldn't be surprised when the public responds.

"Being offended is the natural consequence of leaving one's home." - Fran Lebowitz

[pres2032]

41. but does that mean we have to actually do what the public says?

as if the public is right all the time?

[Dookus]

who said you have to do anything?

But it's silly to think you can "pray" in a public forum and not be met with any comments from people who think it's an inappropriate activity.

[mondo joe]

66. So when the Pope is criticized in this thread don't get upset

No one is forcingyou to read it.

[LDS Jock]

70. I must have missed that in the rules

I'm not Catholic.. but we all share here.

[terrya]

91. Then what, exactly, is the point of all of these groups and forums?

The way I envisioned these groups were, to talk about issues relating to THOSE groups. For instance, I belong to the GLBT group...where issues pertaining to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people can be fully talked about and aired. And I think that's the case. For instnace, whatever is going on vis a vis gay marriage in Canada isn't brought up in the Lounge...it's brought up in the GLBT group.

And shouldn't that be the case for all things religion? We all know that there's a Relgion group....we can go there if we want.

The way I evisioned things, the Lounge would be a place just to hang out and bs. A fun kind of place.

[LDS Jock]

95. have you been to that religion group?

it is hardly a place for Christians.. it is the place for atheists to proselyte

[Thtwudbeme]

120. No. We do NOT all share here

Let me make myself perfectly fucking clear here.

I am spending YEARS...got that???? YEARS of my life, and my money, working shit fucking jobs to be a minister and watching this man...with kazillions of freaking dollars behind him convince people that he is a good person after putting down birth control, AIDS, homosexuals etc....

Oh my God.

You have no clue. No fucking clue how angry I am at what COULD have been for the people...

I wanted so badly to believe in this man...and it's over.

I will NEVER have the money or influence that he did/does.

NONE.

And I don't need to hear that I need to pray for him.

This is personal shit that needs to be in a Religion forum. NOW.

And Chavez...you should request that.

Immediately.

[blondeatlast]

8. Done. Please, DU, have a little respect. nt

[Thtwudbeme]

11. I want to have respect

I wish this were in the Religion forum.

Stephanie

[donheld]

14. Agreed

i belongs there not here.

[blondeatlast]

15. Agreed. I hope it's moved soon. nt

[Misunderestimator]

36. Agree

[pres2032]

20. yes, please respect him and those who will mourn him

[mondo joe]

75. The Lounge is not really the RESPECT forum.

If people, understandably, want a respectful and reverent discussion, there are forums better suited to it.

[Placebo]

13. I made a thread about this earlier...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2553479&mesg_id=2553479

Some DUers were...less than pleased.

[JohnKleeb]

16. Yes I saw that and thank you for posting that in the first place

He's a good guy.

[terrya]

23. I'm not going to gloat. But, dammit...he's said some hateful things...

about gay people, quite frankly. And they won't be forgotten anytime soon. Not by this gay man. He had the power to change things in the church...to help foster understanding, to show love towards gay people and the people they love...and, well, he didn't. And that will be an enduring legacy of this pope.

T

[pres2032]

25. then focus on how he helped end communism

and did more to unite the faiths and sects than any other pope in history.

[terrya]

34. I'm not saying that he didn't do good things.

But the last thing I want to see, because of his impending death, is a whitewashing of the church's policies towards gay people...again, something he had the power to affect. The blind singlemindness of this church of preaching hate towards homosexuality is a stain...a big one....on the legacy of this man.

[Misunderestimator]

86. I agree.

[matcom]

45. right. Communism is 100% bad

:eyes:

[pres2032]

57. soo....um, you supported the Soviet Union

and how they oppressed Eastern Europe?


I'm losing a ton of respect for you a second. I'm really sorry i ever had any for you to begin with.

[Dookus]

61. oh please

one could just as unfairly ask you if you support homophobia and oppose the use of condoms among people with HIV.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lex]

30. I'm with you on that, terry.

Everyone keeps saying "show him some respect" but when did he ever show me and my gay brothers and sisters any respect? Seriously.

[saracat]

40. I am not going to argue as I am not a fan of the Church but even if you

believe what you say , how does displaying that kind of feeling help your cause?It only makes you look small.

[Lex]

49. Once again, we should shut up and sit down and

not hurt anyone's feelings by speaking out, speaking the truth?

Sorry, no can do.

BTW, specifically what "display of feeling" is making me "look small?"

[saracat]

100. Hate.

[Lex]

109. Speaking the truth does not equal HATE.

No way, no how.

[mondo joe]

59. I pray the pope realizes how wrong he's been.

If I'm going to pray, that's it.

[Clarks_Babe]

55. He is an old man

Maybe the next one will be more enlightened. In the meantime those who care to should pray for him.

[Beaverhausen]

21. check out this thread about him

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1203707

yikes!

[saracat]

22. Thanks for posting.I wouldn't have known.

[Cuban_Liberal]

24. You're welcome.

:)

[matcom]

26. take this shit to a religion forum PLEASE

this is about the 100th thread on this.

WHY is it allowed to stay and WHY do i sign on DU for requests for prayer OUTSIDE a religion forum?

i won't waste your time with my feelings on WHY this is innapropriate as i have done so in other threads.

thanks

[Beaverhausen]

29. just what IS appropriate for this forum?

If you don't care about the Pope then don't read the thread.

[matcom]

33. i live in Boston

don't use the 'secular' Lounge here to ask me to pray for anyone. keep it in the religion forum.

i'll refrain from any "personal" observations i may have

[mondo joe]

54. I think the point is if you want a REVERENT thread don't post it

I think the point is if you want a REVERENT thread don't post it in the IRREVERENT lounge.

[saracat]

35. Then we shouldn't acknowledge when Duer's ask for prayers or light for

their families is inappropriate? Or for celebrities, as they often do? The Pope is also a political figure. And a Nobel Winner. Say what you want , many will take note of this and will want to know.This is NOT religious. It is just as relevant as Reagan.

[matcom]

37. i pissed on Reagan's death

deal

[pres2032]

38. matcom is anti-religion

but being that this is a FREE forum, we let him have his say and keep doing what we're doing.

[matcom]

42. i am anti-pedophile

and anti-harborer-of-pedophile

and PRO choice
and PRO woman
and PRO birth control
and PRO gay-marriage
and PRO human rights
and PRO gay-rights
and PRO child-rights

and your Pope is AGAINST all of these things

and tough shit if i think he is/was an asshole

[saracat]

44. He isn't my Pope. But he is a sick old man and has been for a long time.

as was Reagan. I do not support much of what they have done but I stillcan acknowledge their pain. Maybe they have paid a price we never will understand. Hate and disrespect never creates good.

[matcom]

50. according to the Pope it does

he hasn't paid his price yet, but it's coming. oh yes, its coming. as it is for Cardinal Law and the rest of the fucks

[pres2032]

47. the pope is a pedophile?

coulda fooled me. didn't know he was anti-human rights and anti-woman either. considering he was one of the main forces behind the fall of communism and is strongly against the war. I'm pro -life, do you want me out of the democratic party? do you want me to go to hell? I, and the pope, are also anti-death penality. we're consistantly pro-life across the board. but you see what you want to see. you are what you are.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[matcom]

93. "I'm pro -life, do you want me out of the democratic party?"

yup. no room in THIS tent for your "pro-life" ass

get out.

first you say your "pro-life" THEN you say your "pro-choice"

make up your mind and pick a platform

[Spider Jerusalem]

99. I never said I was pro-life.

Apparently reading comprehension os something else you're lacking in.

[matcom]

103. "I'm pro -life, do you want me out of the democratic party?"

sorry. thought my comprehension was pretty good. what in the above sentence am i not getting? :shrug:

maybe i'm "too smart" for my own good? :shrug:

[Spider Jerusalem]

108. Seems like it's piss-fucking poor...

or you'd have learned to look at the name of the poster who's responding.

[matcom]

112. i don't look (pay attention) to names

never have.

i look at substance.

doesn't tell me a thing

[Spider Jerusalem]

118. Yeah, well...

tells ME you must not be that bright, or you'd have twigged early on that you were talking to someone else. And how, precisely, pray tell, does "substance" tell you a damned thing when you don't even know who you're talking to?

[trotsky]

136. He didn't say the pope was a pedophile.

Matcom claimed that he himself was anti-pedophile, and that the pope was the opposite. And, based on the history of pedophilia and the church's (lack of) response to it, I believe his claim is entirely justified.

[RPM]

60. you go Matcom!

I'm with you!

[JVS]

64. Way to stick to your guns Matcom!

[Elidor]

98. That's what I like about you, Matcom

You call it like it is.

Though mostly in agreement with you, I think it's a little too simplistic to think of the Pope as just an asshole, and right now I'm reminded of how he could be a very sweet and humble man, which is what made him so dangerous.

And that's what's so amazing, really. Such a sweet and humble man can cause so much repression and ignorance to be spread. But his has not been an entirely negative life, any more than yours or mine.

He has spoken against Dubya and against the war and been ignored by many of his own followers. We could easily have had a worse Pope these last few decades, and I'm afraid that soon we will. JPII is about to meet his maker. I'll let God make the final judgement.

I'll still speak ill of him as a Pope, but as a human, I respect him. I think he was a nice old guy who was hopelessly conservative.

As for JPII himself, I say: iMazel Tov!

[Beaverhausen]

65. But no one is forcing anyone to read it

If anyone doesn't care about the Pope then they don't have to read this thread. But they don't have the right to decide for everyone else what is and isn't appropriate in the lounge.

Even if they come from Boston. :eyes:

[matcom]

67. the only reason Boston was mentioned is because

we have more fucked up grown men whose cocks were fondled by Catholic Priests when they were young per capita than probably anywhere else in the world (in the name of the father of course)

[Beaverhausen]

74. Uh- here in LA we had our share

it happens everywhere.

I understand you don't like the Pope. I don't either but obviously others are having a hard time with his illness. Why not let them alone and go to another thread? There are tons here that are way more fun.

[lpbk2713]

28. I confess I don't know much about this stuff and

I mean no disrespect to any Catholics, but .... why does he need prayers if he's God's right-hand man?

[Az]

32. I hope his suffering is eased

Difference of beliefs is no reason not to hope for the best for another.

[LDS Jock]

43. my prayers are with him

and I'm sickened by the hate shown on this site for him.

[Misunderestimator]

46. ...

I'm sickened by the hate that the Pope has shown women, gays and non-Christians... I hope he is not suffering as much as he has caused others to.

[Dookus]

51. you're not alone

misunderestimator. It's amazing how a hard-core right-wing conservative can be idolized because he wears a cross.

[sundog]

53. well said

and that's all I'm gonna say

[Longgrain]

48. Raised Catholic, Not practicing.

My sincerest thoughts and hope to our Holy Father.

I've never said a bad thing against the Church and I never will.

Here's my fondest well wishes to John.

Despite all the Catholic Church bashing, let's think of all the good things the Church has tried to do.

There are only three virtures...Faith Hope and Love.

But the greatest of these is Love.

[goodboy]

58. well said...make that two non-practicing Catholics...

[Longgrain]

113. Thanks, I'm not a prayerful person

or even very spiritual. I haven't even been inside a church since my sisters wedding 8 years ago. I would call myself a Catholic Agnostic, what ever that means.

I have turned my back from the Catholic Church somewhat, but it was also the Church I was raised in, I could never turn my back from it fully.

The news about the Pope renewed some of my old, warm feelings toward it...

Here's wishing the best.

[goodboy]

125. I know what you mean...

It's the hypocrisy I cannot stand. But I hope that if John Paul goes, he goes peacefully...and that he's rewarded with the knowledge of the universe and can influence the next Pope to be more tolerant and forward-thinking than he was (is).

[FarLeftRage]

62. Spot on!

You're right... but obviously there are others here who choose to be too narrow minded to realize this.

[matcom]

63. name some

my "narrow" mind can't soak it all in

[FarLeftRage]

71. Well, gee I just can't pull out my entire ignore list

now, can I?

I'd be banned from a political board for doing so...

And if YOU say that YOU have a narrow mind, that's your option to do so.

[Longgrain]

69. Thanks. It was part of my upbringing

So I still have a soft-spot for the Church in my heart.

My political beliefs do tend to get in the way sometimes. Those who like to criticize the Church often forget all the good things the Church does for the unfortunate.

Thanks for your thoughts. :hi:

[FarLeftRage]

80. You are quite welcome!

Usually I try my best to keep my religion from my politics.

However, this occasion has been very hard to do just that.

I certainly hope that all other DUers can understand... just for this one time.

[Longgrain]

87. I felt the same way when Mother Teresa died.

Mixed feeling between my upbringing and my personal feelings about the Church.

Of course it's somewhat different when it's the Pope we're talking about.

[FarLeftRage]

94. Yes it is different

And certainly in magnitude anyway...

[moobu2]

130. Did he ever actually do anything

other than ride around in that bullet proof car and wave at people? If there was something I missed, please tell me..

[DancingBear]

68. Another request to please move this!

It belongs in the Religion Forum - period.

I will refrain from commenting on the Pope, save to say religion masks many sins.

[terrya]

76. Have you altered the mods on this?

This thread is turning into a train wreck. Some people here seem to think there shouldn't be any criticism. But you shouldn't expect that when you post this in the Lounge.

[Misunderestimator]

83. Exactly.

[LDS Jock]

77. and I request.. don't

why the people who believe be sent to the back of the bus, away from the "real" DUers?

[mondo joe]

79. Believe what you like, But if you bring up a controversial figure

Believe what you like, But if you bring up a controversial figure don't get upset when people criticize him.

Deal?

[LDS Jock]

81. I'm not upset over him being criticized

I'm upset because people don't want religious believers to be part of the main stream at DU.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lex]

88. I think it's not so much the "religion" but

the fact that, at least as far as Catholicism and the Pope goes, the dogma is

Anti-Choice
Homophobic
Anti-Birth Control (even in desperately poor countries)
Anti-condom (in HIV plagued Africa)

and that's just not "mainstream" DU (or maybe it is--it's not up to me to decide what is "mainstream" DU).

[LDS Jock]

90. oh dear God

use it to disguise your religious bigotry all you want

[Lex]

97. MY "religious bigotry?"

What exactly is *my* religious bigotry?

Does, or does not, the Catholic dogma and the Pope stand for those things?

[mondo joe]

101. You see? Putting this in the Lounge is a demand for religious reverence

And if you're not reverent to an anti-gay asshole, you're a religious bigot.

Nice.

[LDS Jock]

102. ignore the fucking thread

its not that hard

[mondo joe]

106. Ignore the criticism.

Or don't post about controversial political figures in the lounge.

[saracat]

110. Talk to a Jesuit please. Andrew Greeley perhaps.

That is NOT what most educated Catholics believe. Think Georgetown, Fordham , Notre Dame all good Jesuit schools from which some of our greats intellects hail.And most of them are Democrats.Peace from an ex catholic.

[RUDUing2]

139. not true...I am a religious observant catholic and I am

Pro choice
Pro gay rights and completely non-homophobic
pro birth control
pro condom use (and the church allows condoms to be used to prevent spread of aids..along w/all birth control that is used for medical reasons...in that case they view the birth control as a secondary effect of the first reason).

Dont confuse the more conservative faction of the RCC w/THE RCC.

[DancingBear]

82. No one is saying anything of the sort

It is misplaced, and it belongs in the Religion Forum.

It is/was a call to prayer - doesn't belong here.

If a discussion of the Pope and his virtues/faults is to be undertaken, the Lounge is not the place for it.

Would a thread condemning the Catholic Church stand on gay rights be proper here? Of course not.

Neither is this.

Clear enough?

[LDS Jock]

85. everything in the fucking world goes in the lounge

why should this one topic be banned..

is that fucking clear enough??

[mondo joe]

92. The one topic that was banned was sex talk.

And the pope is more filthy, IMO, than any conceivable sex talk.

But the topic is fine with me.

[intrepid_wanderer]

107. WELL SAID

BZ... LDS ... BZ indeed!

[Dookus]

73. Matthew 6:5-6

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."

[Misunderestimator]

96. I love that.

[Clarks_Babe]

78. The best prayer I know

The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters, he restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.


Even though I walk through the darkest valley
I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.

Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

[intrepid_wanderer]

119. Religion?

... it's something that clashes with my ideas and ideals.

DESPITE THAT!! I sure wish even the majority of us could express something for a man who is suffering.

(isnt' use of the term 'deserve' way overused?)


Here's hoping that either thing improve for him... or his suffering ends soon enough.

[JohnnyCougar]

132. What Book/Chapter/Verse is that?

It's a very good one.

[Dookus]

134. It's the 23rd Chapter

of the Book of Psalms.

[Wat_Tyler]

104. He had hidden depths.

Wasn't he the Goalkeeper for Katowice FC at one point?

[JohnKleeb]

111. You know I think I Read he was an athlete yes

and actor and resistance fighter.

[Wat_Tyler]

116. He was a goalkeeper, and I think he was at one point Professional.

[JohnKleeb]

117. damn

I knew that he fought the Nazis in WWII.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

105. I think this thread is kind of asking for trouble...

The pope has made decisions that have threatened the lives of people simply for being who they are. Now the pope started out very progressive. It's just been the last decade that it seems things have gone badly. I think his mind is not in the right state anymore.

I know the world would be better without the anti-Catholic sentiment that is often found on DU, but unfornuately, the pope has made a lot of people angry by basically telling them they were going to hell for being who they are. Just like I wouldn't like it if someone were being praised who said Catholics were all going to hell, I understand some people being upset about this. The last few years, the statements given by the pope have been offensive, out of touch and just plain wrong. I'm angry at the pope for his statements against gays and his out of touch views on safe sex. I know many are.

I wish the pope peace. But then, I don't wish anyone pain and suffering in death, not even Reagan. However, I think that thread in the Lounge was asking for trouble. Just my humble opinion.

[terrya]

114. Frankly, I'm sort of surprised that a moderator STARTED it in the Lounge.

I'm really...really...puzzling over that one. Surely, said moderator KNEW what would happen here.

[mtnsnake]

115. I'm not very religious, but this thread in no way offends me being here

I don't understand how anyone can get so upset about this. Lots of bitterness here and overreacting, AFAIC. What a shame.

I might not agree with some of his principles, but my best wishes go out to the Pope and anyone else who needs some good vibes when in poor health. If the pope had it his way there would be peace in the world, so that's saying something.

I was born Catholic, BTW, but I haven't considered myself part of any organized religion for most of my life. Still, the lack of respect here for not only the pope, but each other, is sad.

Big deal so someone posted something with nice intentions, but in the wrong place according to some. It's not the end of the world.

[mondo joe]

121. Why should I respect the pope any more than I do GW Bush?

I have ZERO problem with this thread being in the lounge.

My only problem is that when people participate in the thread they'll be asked to show respect or reverence for someone who deserves none, and then there will be fireworks.

I respect the concern of my fellow posters - and that's why I think if they want a reverent thread they should place it in a forum that suits it.

If they don't mind a shitstorm, this is a great place for it.

[mtnsnake]

128. It's not so much the respect issue as it is the outright hostility

toward someone making a sincere gesture of good will.

So maybe it was a mistake for him to post it in the lounge. I'm not one to decide. I doubt if it was purposely put here for the sake of argument. I just think people got overly dramatic and resentful, that's all. I agree with you that threads belong in their correct forums, but geez, we all make mistakes.

People (not you in particular) are so touchy sometimes about religion around here that any little mistake in judgment is liable to set off a firestorm.

Peace, man :)

[intrepid_wanderer]

122. sorta a cliché now...

... but seriously!

Cannot we all just get along... and share ideas/thoughts/concerns////?

[Misunderestimator]

124. ...

I see my prayers were answered... and the thread was moved. thanks

[Zynx]

126. He has always done what he thought was right.

Whether you agree with him or not on somethings(I disagree on many of his stances) he has always acted in accordance with the true Christian spirit.

[Dookus]

131. and George W. Bush

does what he thinks is right. Reagan always did. Margaret Thatcher always did. Thinking you're right is no defense.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

135. But you gotta admit

the pope is a lot better than GWB or Reagan. At least the pope is antiwar, anti death penalty, and is in favor of economic justice. I agree that his views on gay marriage, abortion, etc. are regressive, but IMHO that doesn't cancel out all the things mentioned above.

[trotsky]

137. Hold on a minute.

The "true Christian spirit" is to always do what you think is right?

So G.W. Bush is exhibiting the "true Christian spirit"?

[JohnKleeb]

127. Glad this was moved thank god

[moobu2]

129. He's lived a long life, anyway, he isnt one of my favorite people at all

[sans qualia]

133. My thoughts are with him

No matter how different our beliefs are, he doesn't deserve to suffer.