So most Jews do not believe Christ was the son of God

[Erika]

and yet the fundies think the Jews are the chosen ones?

What kind of doublespeak/doublethink is this?

Why would Christian fundies desperately defend those Jewish who do not believe in the New Testament?

Very curious.

[MnFats]

1. they need to convert them for the rapture to get going.

they also have to restore the temple Mount, which is also sacred to Muslims.
you see where this convoluted goofiness is leading us already...

[jobycom]

2. The Bible says that God will bless those who bless the Jews and curse

those who curse them, and there are all kinds of prophecies tied up in the Jews being around at the end of time. So Fundie Christians feel they have to support them. That support turns into a support of Israel, because the prophecies also require the Jews to be in Israel. It's a purely utilitarian support, of course, because Fundie leaders from George Bush to Pat Robertson to Billy Graham have proven to be strong personal anti-Semites while still supporting Israel to bring on the Apocalypse.

[Phx_Dem]

3. according to revelations

something like 3/4 of all jews will die in the end of times war and the rest will accept jesus or die. Jews referred to as the "chosen ones" simply means that they have to follow a special set of rules, doesn't mean their special.

[Erika]

11. Why would they have to follow special rules?

Is everyone intrigued about this religious dogma?

[Phx_Dem]

15. there is a midrash that speaks to this

I don't remember which one. Jews were chosen to follow the Torah, and all 613 commandments contained within.

[MnFats]

13. no, it does mean they're special. "God's Chosen."

Read some of the old testament.
God tells Abraham and Moses that He will exalt the Nation of Israel above all others.
then, of course, as Jon Steward said, nothing bad ever happens to the Jews again.
but seriously....God does say he'll free them from Pharoah and make them a nation that will be his elect.

[NMMNG]

4. To the Fundies, Jews are merely a tool in the quest for the Rapture

If it weren't for the Rapture the Fundies would hate the Jews as much as they hate everyone else.

[Erika]

7. So they act in defense of Jews because of fear of hell?

For a religion who believes Christ is not the son of God?

How about the fundies refusal to feed the poor or offer health insurance to the most needy? Don't they fear these behaviors?

These people must have logic circling in their heads.

[NMMNG]

17. Something about the rules of the Rapture

The Jews have to recapture the Holy Land for the Rapture to occur, so the Fundies are doing all they can to make that happen. So essentially the balance of the ME, if not the world, rests on the wild fantasies of a segment of the fundies. :scared:

[Erika]

5. The fundies believe only thru Christ can you obtain heaven

But they support and defend to the death a nation who doesn't believe in Christ?

These people are truly goofy. (To be polite and sensitive).

[charlie]

9. Like everyone's said

They need Jews to get their Apocalypse on. Israel too. They love Jews like some ne'er-do-well "loves" his Grandma with the big inheritance. Jackpot only happens when all but 144,000 Jews are dead.

[VPStoltz]

6. How strange...

I was having this very same conversation with my partner today. Christian fundie would rather support a nation that does not even believe in Christ as anything more than a nice guy than even recognize that two people of the same gender, devout Christians themselves, could even love each other. Even Muslims hold Jesus in high esteem as one of the 12 prophets don't they? The hypocrisy is sickening.

[Erika]

8. The Iraqi government is now hunting gays

How much they, indeed, share with fundies.

Wonder what Christ would think.

Yes, Muslims acknowledge that Mohammed and Christ share the same paternal lineage...Abraham.

[pretzel4gore]

23. i doubt this...

foxnews etc has to demonise iraq, even the iraq of their own making, cuz sympathy for iraq is growing the more we know about bush and his greasy mediawhore. from what i've been reading, iraq is a hell on earth, cooking in 100 plus degree heat, and rent by sectional fighting, murder squads and a crazed semi-stoned occupational army.....1/2 of iraq's population is under 15 years of age - gayness is probably an issue only the racists at foxnews/cnn etc think about (and only in terms of painting the innocent little country as some kind of bigoted monster, which is a good description of them hypocrites at foxnews/cnn ie the pigmedia)

[countmyvote4real]

10. Fundies believe Jews get a "do over" come the Rapture.

I think they have another name for this bogus phase, but it all starts with the Rapture myth.
"If you don't know me by no-ow... then you'll be unchosen and burn in hell." Oh, and in that event, if you are not a Jew, but suddenly realize that the guy on the white horse coming from the sky is Jesus, there is no "do over" for you. Sorry.

This is clearly BS constructed to cow the masses, much like the * administration's "war on terror."

[Erika]

12. The Mormons are in constant trouble for baptizing the Jews

after their deaths.

Whatever happened to doing good while here and just hoping you made the world a little better place without religion playing a role? And never asking for tax credits for charitable or religious giving? Oops that must be an atheist thing.

[countmyvote4real]

14. "secular" is preferred over "atheist" in these modern times. n/t

[Erika]

16. Thanks for the PC reminder

I certainly don't want to raise the hackles of the religious. W gave them a megaphone.

Us, atheists (oops I mean secularists) just want to do good, and don't even expect a tax break. If you know what I mean, the tax breaks, cheapens the good intended. It should be part of our caring out of the heart, not for tax breaks to increase our bottom
line profits. I know, I know, I should be strung up and hung for such anti capitalism views.

[Zhade]

24. It's not really a PC thing, it's an accuracy thing.

There are many believers who also advocate a separation of church and states, thus making them secularists.

That Raw Story hate screed a while back conflated the two to great, and insulting to both, effect.

[nealmhughes]

19. Actually, a lot of Christians believe EVERYONE get a do over after death!

It comes from the belief that Christ "harrowed hell," that is to say, while in the tomb, he preached and showed his power to those who had never known monotheism, and that those who were repentant, he allowed into heaven.

Now everyone since then is open game or else gets their own redo.

[Crunchy Frog]

18. Because fundies are biblical literalists

and the OT is part of the Bible (in fact, their preferred part). Their beliefs about Jews are pretty much what one would expect from biblical literalists who count the OT as part of their Bible.

They of course think that the Jews are ultimately going to be condemned to an eternity in hell unless they accept Jesus, but while they're here, they are God's Chosen People, because the Bible says so. They support Israel because it is scheduled to host the Apocalypse.

[aasleka]

20. Information about religion

Jewish by definition means that you believe in God but that Jesus was not the son of God.

Also Muslims Christians and Jews believe in the same God. It is the covenant of Abraham that is the foundation, it is also why Jeruselem is claimed by Jews, Muslims and Christians.

It is unfortunate that brothers (decsendants of Ishmael and Isaac) have fought so very long.

Search and read up.

[aasleka]

21. Also Goda law was liberal

"How about the fundies refusal to feed the poor or offer health insurance to the most needy? Don't they fear these behaviors?"

So true. Jewish law (Gods law) in the Bible was to leave the edges of the field for the widow, the poor and the traveler. I think it is one of the first examples of socialism.

[Zebedeo]

31. May I respectfully suggest

that you contradict yourself?

This statement:

Also Muslims Christians and Jews believe in the same God. It is the covenant of Abraham that is the foundation, it is also why Jeruselem is claimed by Jews, Muslims and Christians.

contradicts this one:

Jewish by definition means that you believe in God but that Jesus was not the son of God.

In the Christian religion, the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are all one and the same God. So if anyone does not believe in the divinity of Jesus, that person does not "believe in the same God" as Christians do.

You also said:

It is unfortunate that brothers (decsendants of Ishmael and Isaac) have fought so very long.

On that point, I wholeheartedly agree with you. :)

[nick303]

22. correction

Should read "ALL" Jews do not believe Christ was the son.

[davidinalameda]

25. I was thinking the same thing

Jews by definition don't believe that Jesus was the messiah

if they did, they would be Christians

[SPKrazy]

27. Messianic Jews Believe Jesus Was The Messiah

hence the name Messianic Jews


now other Jews may not consider them to be Jews

but Messianic Jews consider themselves Jewish and Christian

[Meshuga]

28. There might be Jews who become Christians

But Messianic "Judaism" is mostly composed of non-Jews who call themselves Jews. And the religion was created (in the 1960's) in order to attempt to convert Jews.

I have no beef with Jews who become Christians. People should believe in whatever they think it is true to them. The problem I have is with this group with members who dress like Jews, use Jewish symbols, follow some traditions (sometimes in the wrong way out of pure ignorance about Judaism), to draw Jews to their congregations and try to convert them.

Hell, you are new in town and you want to go to a Shabbat service, you find this nice "synagogue" and think you are going to a REAL Jewish synagogue and when you get there... They start preaching that "Yeshua is lord"!

It's like a heterosexual guy who goes to a night club, hooks up with an extremely hot chick to later find out that the lady has something extra in between "her" legs. You know what I mean? :-)

[davidinalameda]

30. culturally Jewish is one thing

but if you believe that Jesus is the messiah, you're Christian

[Hoping4Change]

33. My understanding of Messanic Jews is that they believe in a

Messiah but do not in any way believe Jesus is it.

[cosmik debris]

29. Jesus was a Jew

Does he count?

[SPKrazy]

26. Biblical Literalists (Selective Ones At That)

thinking that they need to defend the right of Israel to exist, not for the people so much as the need for Israel to exist to "fulfill" prophecies that they have interpreted to mean that the end times are coming. (The establishment of the state of Israel plays a big part in this)

[Hoping4Change]

32. What a brilliant observation. Kudos. nt

[The Straight Story]

34. There are/were two paths which join the two

In the OT the jews carried the torch, as it were, of having the messiah come from them. For this, and what all they went through, God blessed them but also noted many would reject the messiah.

The early jews who converted took up that torch and worked to show the other jews that the messiah had come (most early christians were jews). God did not forget his promises to the Jews - to redeem them and give them back their land, even though many rejected the messiah God was good at his word and promised to finally bring them home and eventually peace.

Christians have a seperate promise from God.

There were those bound to the old covenant (Jews) who still honor God in the way they were taught, and God will deliver his promise to them. It does not mean they are superior, it was just that this one group on the earth was called for a mission (and were punished a lot for slacking on it). Now all mankind is part of the same promises, just with a newer covenant not so restrictive (Jesus rejected much of the general stuff).

God did reveal himself to other peoples and cultures (Indians, Japanese, etc and so on) and even mentioned that some heathen nations paid him more respect then the jews. The core ideal was to bring one unifying force in and let mankind know that the one thing that they feared most, death, was no longer something to worry about.

There are some in the various churches who believe you don't have to be christian to partake of this, the idea was to go out and spread the good news, tell people to quit killing each other and doing other crappy things, and live together well as we will all be together someday in eternity.

The jews suffered a lot in the OT days and since, but god promised them a blessing. So christians have a deep bond to their fellow folks who follow the same being.

If one rejects the good news, and says they don't believe it or want it, then they are not bound to live their lives under god's rules, nor are they guaranteed they will partake of the rewards (that is up to God, not me to decide).

Would type more but would hate to bore ya :)