Question for Southern Baptists re two acronyms

[Sapphocrat]

What do "LBT" and "IFB" stand for?

I keep seeing these acronyms on religious message boards, and I'm at a loss. (But I do get the idea that they describe two Southern Baptist factions at extreme odds with each other.)

[mzteris]

1. LBT

Licensed Belief Therapist

IFB - Independent Fundamentalist Baptist

[teach1st]

2. Not sure...

I see LBT used for "Licensed Belief Therapist" on some Southern Baptist web pages. Similarly, IFB is used for "Independent Fundamentalist Baptist."

[Charlie Brown]

3. I believe IFB= Independent Fundamental Bapitst

[ovidsen]

4. So who licenses an LBT?

The government? The church heirarchy?

And what exactly is an LBT supposed to do?

I'm not being a smartass, by the way... I'm really curious.

[charlie]

5. LBT could mean Longview Baptist Temple

an independent Baptist ministry/academy, publisher of Baptist magazine. There's some sort of internecine battle going amongst IFBs as to whether LBT's pastor Gray is "godly" or power mad.

[mzteris]

15. Licensed Belief Therapist

Belief Therapy ®
As A Christian Therapeutic Treatment Modality
Dr. Paul Carlin, who is a Scripturologist not a psychologist, introduced Belief Therapy to the public in November 1997. The modality was developed during his 20 years of restorative justice ministries in the Texas Prison System. He used the prisons as his laboratory and prisoners as his subjects.


Belief Therapy is a Biblical, faith-based, Scripturodynamic, Christian, cognitive analytical process based on Albert Ellis’ Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy with spiritual dynamics added. Belief Therapy rests upon the axiom that core beliefs are the gates through which thoughts originate, emotions are formed and behaviors are ultimately acted out. BT places the role of beliefs as the “sine qua non” of human addiction. According to the model, certain beliefs (lies people believe) drive and maintain even the addictive process. BT is a lie versus truth modality. With BT, knowing and appropriating the truth will progressively (and sometimes immediately) make a person free from any bondage, i.e., “You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:32) “And if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.” (John 8:36)



Belief Therapy is a Christian Counseling modality for professionals, non-professionals, and para-professionals. A Therapon Licensed Belief Therapist acts on his commission, brings people into the presence of Christ, helps people into the healing water, possesses a higher dignity, occupies a more confidential position, offers a free service and believes God!

http://www.therapon.org/lbt.html

The Therapon Institute does not grant degrees, nor are our licenses state credentials. However, we are endorsed by over 2,000 graduates in 12 states and three foreign countries, and we are an education provider for the State of Texas professional counselor licensure boards. The prestigious American Society of Christian Therapists endorses Therapon. We have graduates who are psychiatrists, medical doctors, nurses, school teachers, licensed professionals in counseling, social work, pastors and hundreds of lay people.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

16. Sounds like another fundamentalist scam to get money out of

desperate peoples pockets. Although I am surprised that they base their system on Albert Ellis. There's something not right there.

[mzteris]

17. yes and no

Yes - it's about the $$$$$$$$$$!

I don't think they *really* base their system on Albert Ellis. They just want to link to "respectable sounding names/processes" in order to bilk more of the gullible out of more of their $$.

[Sapphocrat]

20. Then they'd better work on the terminology...

"Ministry Caregivers Licensure For Human Development Paraprofessionals And Scriptureologists"...

"Paraprofessionals": If I recall my Greek prefices, "para-" means "beside," "beyond," and/or "against." (I'm reminded of those commercials and print ads for "gen-u-ine faux diamonds"; I'm guessing the marketers gamble on the premise that their target audience thinks "faux" either means "certified," or is a country in Africa.)

"Scriptureologists": There is one thing, and one thing only, this "word" brings to mind:

"They have one thing you haven't got: a diploma. Therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universitartus Committiartum E Pluribus Unum, I hereby confer upon you the honorary degree of ThD."

"ThD?"

"That's Doctor of Thinkology!"

[mzteris]

21. Truly educated people

recognize them for the scam artists they are and give 'em a wide berth.

[Sapphocrat]

23. Hey, I ain't got no book-larnin'!

I just ask a lot of questions. :D

And give such things a wide berth.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

34. That was my thought too, although I have only read one of

Eilis's books but I have a friend who has read many of his works, she's a real psychologist, and from our discussions I don't see how any of his principles could be intellectually linked to this scam.

But then again, for fundamentalist it's all about belief, facts are really not necessary components.

[NMMNG]

28. How very scientific....and ethical

Dr. Paul Carlin, who is a Scripturologist not a psychologist, introduced Belief Therapy to the public in November 1997. The modality was developed during his 20 years of restorative justice ministries in the Texas Prison System. He used the prisons as his laboratory and prisoners as his subjects.


He used captive subjects, possibly without their consent, and no control groups. He then generalized his "therapy" to the population as a whole from a very specific population. That speaks volumes for his scientific and ethical ideals.

[charlie]

30. Not to mention

the self-awarded title of Scripturologist. Not a Biblical scholar, but a scripturologist.

Makes me think of those management trainees sent to McDonald's U and awarded degrees in Hamburgerology that would be embarassing on any resume not submitted to a McDonald's.

[NMMNG]

31. That gives me an idea

I'll hang around, study DU and analyze posters based on their posts. Then I'll create an entire therapy based on it and call it DUology. I'll charge a very reasonable rate, I assure you. :rofl:

[charlie]

32. Cool

Since you've claimed this turf, I'll set up practice at freeperville. Call me a Doodoo-ologist.

[NMMNG]

33. More power to you

You'll be dealing with some hard core hatred and ignorance over there. I wouldn't want to be you. :scared:

[Sapphocrat]

6. Ohhhhhhhhhh!

Thank you all! And... you guys really aren't pulling my leg about "Licensed Belief Therapist"? Seriously? ("Licensed" by what?)

So am I right in assuming that IFB churches are non-mainstream So. Baptist -- they don't have to account to any central authority?

And LBT is the more "liberal" (if one can possibly use that word in the same sentence as "Southern Baptist") of the two factions? Is LBT any sort of organized group, or do less-fundamentalist fundamentalists just identify as LBT as they see fit?

And neither is condoned/endorsed by the SBC?

Reason for all the questions: I've just been fascinated lately by the back-and-forth on fundy message boards. I could never have a conversation with any of the participants, but it's quite an experience to eavesdrop on fundies not consumed by freeperism. (Did you all know there is a message board called "The Texas Baptist Underground"? This "underground" thing is awfully popular. LOL)


On edit: Spelling

[charlie]

7. At TB Underground

the LBT they're talking about is Longview Baptist Temple.

[Sapphocrat]

8. OK, that makes a lot of things clear!

Thanks, charlie, that helps!

[flyingfysh]

9. Baptists historically have no central authority

A congregation can join the Southern Baptist Convention (or other group) by choice, or be independent. They can continue to call themselves "Baptist".

[Ringo84]

10. Sapphocrat

"liberal" (if one can possibly use that word in the same sentence as "Southern Baptist")

There ARE liberal Southern Baptists. I'm one.

We're around. It's just that the fundies have hijacked our convention and become the "establishment". The SBC and its members do not represent me, just as * doesn't represent me politically.
Ringo

[Sapphocrat]

11. That's a very difficult concept...

...for me to wrap my brain around -- it's like the antithesis of a black, gay Republican (they DO exist, but the reality of it is almost beyond my comprehension). I do appreciate the clarification, though.

Sincere questions: Is there any specific church, or organized group, of liberal Southern Baptists? It seems to me that any stance even remotely (socially) "liberal" seems so far divorced from Southern Baptist doctrine (not necessarily SBC) that I'm compelled to ask: What makes (or keeps) you a Southern Baptist, as opposed to any other flavor of Protestantism? Say, is it that you adhere to a specific school of thought that isn't shared with any other church?

Non-believing minds want to know! :)

(This is why I'm fascinated by astronomy, too: I'll never live anywhere but Earth, but I want to know what other planets are all about.)

[Ringo84]

13. Re:

for me to wrap my brain around -- it's like the antithesis of a black, gay Republican (they DO exist, but the reality of it is almost beyond my comprehension).

I understand. The fundies have all but completely taken over.

Is there any specific church, or organized group, of liberal Southern Baptists?

Hmm... I would say that the closest is the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, or CBF. Though they're moderates, they're probably the closest to what we'd call "liberal".

It seems to me that any stance even remotely (socially) "liberal" seems so far divorced from Southern Baptist doctrine (not necessarily SBC)

I agree.

You know, the Baptist denomination is actually quite liberal and libertarian, if you think about it. Baptists are supposed to believe in autonomy - we're not a creedal denomination, meaning that individual churches can decide what they consider to be "sound doctrine" within reason. To me, Baptist has always meant that a person is free to find their own way. That the church isn't going to say, "this is a list of our beliefs. Sign on the dotted line or you don't believe in God". I don't believe that kind of BS, and I'm uncomfortable whenever an organization (whether secular or religious) tries to force its members or adherents to a certain set, rigid list of doctrine.

You'll like this: Baptists traditionally believed in church and state separation also. Another good reason to call myself Baptist!

So in those ways, the fundies aren't true Baptists. They took over the Southern Baptist Convention in 1979, replacing anyone they considered 'liberal' (ie: even slightly to their political/theological left) with dumbass fundies. There aren't any moderate or liberal Baptists in the SBC now - they've been completely routed out.

At the same time, they took over many of the denomination's top seminaries, such as Southern Seminary, replacing their so-called "liberal" directors and Presidents with fundies. They didn't bother to confront doctrinal differences and try to find middle ground; they just took over.

True Baptists would have left individuals to decide what they believe, instead of forcing them to adhere to legalistic guidelines. True Baptists would have fought for church/state separation, instead of forcing mandatory prayer and Bible reading into the school. In that way at least, fundies are BINOs (Baptists In Name Only).

Does that answer your questions? Hope I didn't ramble on too long. I also hope that that didn't come across as trying to "save" you; I was just answering your question.
Ringo

[Sapphocrat]

18. Thanks, Ringo, I appreciate this!

Don't worry, I didn't think you were trying to "save" me. I'd know it if you were -- my skin may be a bit thin, but it's all Teflon. LOL

I recall reading about the big fundie takeover of the SBC -- and the whole thing is a bloody shame. Yes, I have a vague awareness of So. Baptists once being big proponents of church-state separation; they really got the concept, where few others did, that if you don't want the government messing with your church, you have to keep religion out of civic affairs. Again, it is a bloody shame, the way the SBC was hijacked.

(And that's coming from a true infidel who shares precious little in common with most Christian churches. But, to touch on what must be the most often hashed-out question in the R/T forum -- "How can you respect another's beliefs if you don't believe in them yourself?" -- I'm living proof one can. It's just "live and let live.")

Yes, you have answered my questions, and again, I appreciate it, very much. May I reserve the right to bother you again with more when I think of them? And I will think of more -- you've given me a lot of food for thought. :)

[Ringo84]

25. Sapph

they really got the concept, where few others did, that if you don't want the government messing with your church, you have to keep religion out of civic affairs. Again, it is a bloody shame, the way the SBC was hijacked.

Absolutely!

I appreciate it, very much.

No problem at all. I'm actually glad you asked; I should have written that all down a long time ago.

May I reserve the right to bother you again with more when I think of them? And I will think of more -- you've given me a lot of food for thought.

Sure! Thanks for the compliment. I'm glad you liked what I wrote. I was thinking that it rambled a little.
Ringo

[charlie]

14. To give your brain a final twist

Bill Moyers is a Southern Baptist, a minister in fact. The leadership of the SBC was hijacked by a rightwing faction decades ago, kind of like what happened to the NRA around the same time. Before that, Baptists were largely active with the same concerns Moyers is today, looking out for the downtrodden and forgotten. Y'know, purportedly Christian matters.

[Sapphocrat]

19. Moyers! Wow!

You win the Brain Twist Prize, charlie!

But then, that makes perfect sense: The more freepy neocons become, the saner the few remaining paleocons sound. There's a parallel in there, somewhere, with revisionist CINOs (Christians In Name Only) and "true" Christians.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

24. Wow

I did NOT know that. I am going to have to re-examine some of his writing with that in mind. It really puts a different slant on it. I guess I assumed he was an atheist.

[charlie]

26. Yes, it would be easy to get that impression

because he's been so fiercely ecumenical it might sound like he argues only for goodness and ethics for their own sakes, apart from any religion. He can preachify as good as anybody when he has a mind to, though:

It is the vast difference between the religion about Jesus and the religion of Jesus.

Yes, the religion of Jesus. It was in the name of Jesus that a Methodist ship caulker named Edward Rogers crusaded across New England for an eight-hour work day. It was in the name of Jesus that Francis William rose up against the sweatshop. It was in the name of Jesus that Dorothy Day marched alongside auto workers in Michigan, brewery workers in New York, and marble cutters in Vermont. It was in the name of Jesus that E.B. McKinney and Owen Whitfield stood against a Mississippi oligarchy that held sharecroppers in servitude. It was in the name of Jesus that the young priest John Ryan - ten years before the New Deal - crusaded for child labor laws, unemployment insurance, a minimum wage, and decent housing for the poor. And it was in the name of Jesus that Martin Luther King Jr. went to Memphis to march with sanitation workers who were asking only for a living wage.

This is the heresy of our time - to wrestle with the gods who guard the boundaries of this great nation's promise, and to confront the medicine men in the woods, twirling their bullroarers to keep us in fear and trembling. For the greatest heretic of all is Jesus of Nazareth, who drove the money changers from the temple in Jerusalem as we must now drive the money changers from the temples of democracy.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/042306X.shtml

Edit: added a word ("only") I meant to include

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. Whoa

That last paragraphy is powerful mojo!

[Ian David]

12. Liberal Baptists

Members of the Association of Welcoming & Affirming Baptists (AWAB) are churches, organizations, and individuals who are willing to go on record as welcoming and affirming all persons without regard to sexual orientation or gender identity, and who have joined together to advocate for the full inclusion of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender persons within Baptist communities of faith.
http://www.wabaptists.org/




See also:

SBTC removes church over homosexuality controversy
Jan 17, 2006
By Jerry Pierce
Baptist Press

BAYTOWN, Texas (BP)-—The Southern Baptists of Texas Convention’s executive board has acted unanimously to disaffiliate a church for violating the convention’s constitutional provision concerning churches that “affirm, approve, or endorse homosexual behavior.”
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=22464


List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality

[Sapphocrat]

22. Great links, Ian...

Thank you!

Although now that re-raises the question for me: Once a branch of any organized religion (Christian or otherwise) is so far removed, ideologically, from a fundamentalist faction that -- well, with which I would think they would not want to be associated, and which, frankly, brings them down -- why hang on to so much as even the name (in this case, "Baptist")?

Oh yes, I do understand there's a huge schism (several schisms) among Baptists -- but it's a more general question than that. I wonder the same thing about American Catholics, who are by and large light-years apart from the Vatican version of Roman Catholicism.

I guess I can answer my own question: My mom is one of those ultra-liberal, American, Kennedy-style Catholics -- and no matter what the Church in Rome says or does, I doubt she could ever see herself as anything but Catholic (and a good Catholic, at that). Of course, I keep waiting, and waiting for an official split between American Catholics and the Vatican... But then, I keep hoping for equal rights in my lifetime, too. LOL

And then, I suppose, there's always the matter of refusing to give up what is rightly yours; why abandon a label when you believe you have a rightful claim to it?

Rhetorical question. Actually, all rhetorical questions -- I'm not putting you on the spot to answer them, Ian. LOL Just thinking out loud here.

Again, thanks for the links -- good stuff!

[TreasonousBastard]

29. Just to add to the mix here...

I'm not a Baptist, but am on the Baptist Peace Federation of North America (www.bpfna.org) listserve.

This is a small dedicated group that would like to, among other things, steer at least a part of the Baptist world back to its pacifist roots. It crosses over into the Welcoming and Affirming Baptists quite a bit and sponsors Christian Peacemaker teams, Every Church a Peace Church, and other ecumenical peace and human rights efforts.

I haven't asked anyone outright, but I'd hazard a guess that they, like Jimmy Carter, aren't going to dump their beliefs and the church they've spent their lives with simply because some dildos got control of a large part of it. Fighting to get the church back on the path of their grandparents seems more their way.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

35. if one can possibly use that word in the same sentence as "Southern Baptist

To use the word liberal in the same sentence with Southern Baptist is blasphemy my child. You will surely burn in hell. :sarcasm:

[Sapphocrat]

36. Oh, I know I'm going to burn in hell...

My pedophile priest told me so!

[Freedom_from_Chains]

37. Well, there you have, from unquestionable authority.

Repent now, while there is still time. Cause you know, the end is near.