Theists: What are your beliefs reguarding Hell?

[catbert836]

I'm reading Dostoevsky's "The Brothers Karamazov", and in it there's a very powerful passage where the elder of a monastery dies, but before he does, he relates his beliefs regarding God, love, Earth, and hell to his friends who are by his deathbed. He states that he believes that Hell is not a place of fire and brimstone, but that those who go to Hell suffer from an inability to love.

This made me curious: I know that conservative believers have a very cut-and-dried view of Hell, but how do religious liberals believe? Do you guys think hell is even real? If so, is it a place where the damned suffer eternally? Why would God send people there?

Thank you in advance.

[Lost-in-FL]

1. Hell is what we are living here now...

the product of bad decisions made by us that make us suffer. I don't believe in hell.

[BrklynLiberal]

2. I believe that we each make our own Hell inside our own minds.

Each of us has our own unique version of what hell is based on our own worst fears.

Winston Smith's Hell involved rats.

[frankly_fedup2]

25. To me Hell is our time on Earth. You can make decisions regarding

actions and consequences; however, there are outside factors that can literally make Hell on Earth. You cannot escape a lot of things that happen in your life or those your love. We will all die eventually, which I believe death is a "deep sleep" that our spirits are in even though our bodies are deterorating and returning to dust.

A lot of people at funerals will say, "She/he is in a better place now." If that is true, that the spirit leaves the body immediately at the time of death and goes "somewhere," then what is the point of the Rapture, the Judgement, and the return of Christ?

No one has ever answered that question for me.

[frankly_fedup2]

35. Obviously, no one can answer the question now. I thought there would

be some clergy people on this board and might give it a try. Not only did no one give it a try, they completely ignored me as per usual whenever I asked this to any other clergy or peeps. I know no one can answer it 100% but c'mon ppl, somebody surely has an opinion about this????? Anybody?????

[mrcheerful]

3. Church fear tactics been in use from the day the church found out they got

higher church attendence when they talked about sinners being punished by a vengeful god then they got when sermons talked about love and peace. So far humans haven't gooten that far out of the dark ages as they thought. Remember in Christs own words all a person had to do was believe in him. That was latter changed to god wants a dog and pony show and mankind has to jump thru hoops to enter into the good after life.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

7. "god wants a dog and pony show and mankind has to jump thru hoops

to enter into the good after life."

Don't forget about the money part!

[msongs]

4. hell is a concept of fear to keep the sheeple in line

if you don't do what I say you will go to hell etc

back in the days of nearly universal ignorance (not stupidity, just ignorance) the learned people kept the masses
in line by threatening them with hell, or some other equivalent, excommunication, etc.

due to lack of scientific understanding and knowledge, superstitions were used to explain the natural world.
in our era, we understand the science behind natural phenonema yet many people still believe the unsubstantiated
superstitions of religion.

the primary religions of the earth have not evolved to meet current understanding. They are CONSERVATIVE, that is to say,
conserving the old ways despite new knowledge.

thus we still have hell for all you non-believers, heathens, infidels, etc. I don't believe god has anything to do with hell.

Msongs
www.msongs.com
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Get your pics on shirts!

[I_Make_Mistakes]

5. This was my response to another Du'er as to my opinions of the

last judgement!

I am a symbolic person, so I will give my general view in
>general terms that are symbolically representative of eternal
>justice.
>
>You know the near death experiences reported, where your life
>flashes before your eyes, I think this is an is an insight
>into our spiritual reckoning, seeing the good and bad
>repercussions of the decisions we have made (kinda of like
>book/movie "The Five People You Meet in Heaven". I think it
>was written by the same person as "Thursday's with Maurie" (is
>that right)?
>
>In my opinion, it is not an externally imposed Hell, but
>rather an internally imposed Hell.
>
>Just to give an ex., imagine Bush having to face all the
>people that have been killed, maimed, or harmed in some way by
>his reckless decisions as Gov., Pres., businessman, man etc.
>I try to live in a way that I will not have too many souls
>asking me, "Why did you not help me when I asked or didn't,
>(fill in the blank), etc.
>
>I have no idea what the outcome is, because as a human, I have
>no way to truly know God, but, I do suspect that our souls do!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. Master of the Day of Judgement

I think your concept of the Day of Judgement and Hell fits well into my concept. If we do, indeed, face all those who we have hurt, with no veils of delusion to seperate us from the true nature of our actions--we could, indeed, create our own Hell through the remorse which we feel.

Ah! To truly know God! This is the Sufi's goal-to die before death, that we can look the Beloved full in the face! I have had glimpses-true bliss beyond anythng else--ah, truly the only paradise is there--to veil onesself from God the only Hell!

[catbert836]

15. How does one "veil themselves from God"?

eom

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. I'll use an analogy

You're watching a TV show, but you're also reading your email, talking to someone, perhaps even listening to some music in the background. Can you really say you have given the TV program your full attention?

People veil themselves from God in a lot of different ways. One of the big ones is worry. Another is anger, another fear of what is going to come. We can get so wrapped up in the minutae of our lives we can't see beyond it. Think of times something at work has you so stressed out you feel you're gonna have a heart attack-your whole world is gonna come crashing down on you. And then, something happens-maybe you're invited to go for a hike in the woods-you go there, things slow down, the oppressive feeling leaves, and you find yourself at peace. Somehow you know that everything will work out. The world suddenly has a clarity and serenity you hadn't noticed in a long while.

That peaceful calm feeling is really a wonderful one, one that I feel gets us closer to That which we are seeking. It is beyond happiness, beyond bliss. You'd think that it would be easy to maintain, but those other feelings and thoughts can get in the way so very easily. Living in the world and trying to keep a spiritual perspective is a continuous, interesting balancing act.

[catbert836]

19. I think I see what you mean.

Obviously, I don't believe in the Christian god, but possibly in some type of pantheistic "life force". When I'm out in nature, as you say, it does seem easier to percieve.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. Yeah

my concept of God is different than the Christian concept. It is definately pantheistic-Sufis believe all paths lead to Unity. In other words, "La illha il Allah" means "There is nothing but God".

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

6. I'm not a theist, but the idea of hell is what completely turned me away

from Christianity when I was a kid.

The idea that someone like my dad could be a good guy, and live a good life with the good done far outweighing any bad, but because he either chose not to accept the idea of God or Jesus or lived somewhere where he never heard of Christianity, and would therefore burn in hell for all eternity, made no sense to me at all and the idea of it really bothered me.

Same idea for some guy living in a remote culture with no exposure to Christianity. Basically good guy, the usual minor league sins, but burns in hell for all eternity because no one ever told him about the word.

Even though I think the idea of hell is precisely what is supposed to make you turn to some religions through fear (the next step beyond fear of death), it had the opposite effect on me, the idea was repellent to me and made me reject the religion, deep inside somewhere.

[catbert836]

9. Me too!

It doesn't make any sense that a compassionate, loving God would punish human beings for eternity for transgressions over a short lifespan.

Much less if the only real sin was not believing in that god.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. The very things you wondered about were discussed in my home

when I was growing up. My mother said, "How can God, who is a kind loving Father, be less forgiving and merciful than my own dad?" She also continually argued with our fundamentalist relatives on being "saved by grace"-that it didn't make sense that someone who never heard of Christianity (like your remote culture guy) would be condemned to hell because of it. She showed me that what matters is to walk your talk-to say one thing and do another is hypocrisy. Interestingly, both of us left the protestant church-she to become a Unitarian, me to be a Sufi initiate.

[Zhade]

38. That's what led to my BRIEF stint as a Mormon.

Right after 9/11, when I was at a very low point in my life - hell, ON 9/11, when I was scared and confused, and got down on my knees to pray (an activity I have always seen, and likely always will see, as nothing more than wishful thinking that does nothing but maybe calm you down) - I turned to Mormonism for a couplefew months, specifically because of its claim that those who had never heard of Jesus could still "be saved from Hell".

You gotta admit, that's an attractive concept that alleviates doubt that 'god' really loves mankind. Good marketing on the part of old Joseph "Known fraud in his own time" Smith, eh?

[jeff30997]

8. We're already in hell.But ask 6 millions Jews for confirmation.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Hell is a concept

and a creation of one's own beliefs, I think. And yes, you can have hell right here on earth-bet you know of folks who never see the bright side of things, only the dark cloud inside the silver lining, as it were.

I heard this story about Heaven and Hell, and feel it quite good, too:

A man had a dream, in which he went to Hell. There was a huge dining room, with a large table covered with every delightful food imaginable. The people seated at the table were in agony, however; long spoons were attached to their hands in such a way that they couldn't get the spoons to their mouths to eat. The people were starving.

The next night, the man had a dream of Heaven. Same scenerio-but the people were smiling and content, for the people were feeding each other.

[catbert836]

12. That's a very nice parable.

It seems to resemble the beliefs of Zosima in "The Brothers Karamazov".

[struggle4progress]

26. Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, 114:

Pen, tablet, heaven and hell I looked to see
Above the skies, from all eternity;
At last the master sage instructed me,
"Pen, tablet, heaven and hell are all in thee. "

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/omarkhayyam-rub2.html

[Lost-in-FL]

11. Christians weapon of mass deception

[Proud_Democratt]

42. A 2000 year old

scare tactic.

[AnnieBW]

14. I'm In Hell Now

It's called "Graduate school".

[brokensymmetry]

18. It depends on what you mean by Hell.

I think that when we graduate - die, if you prefer -
we're pretty much the same as we were in life. The
same attitudes, loves, hates, whatever.

Like attracts like, so we'll be around others that
are a lot like we are.

So, nice, generous, kind people will be around the same
kind of people. Sounds like a taste of heaven, doesn't
it?

Those who are cruel and hateful will be around others
just as bad or worse. Sounds hellish, eh?

Of course, one could change and get out of Hell. But
with no model of behavior other than the one you're stuck
in, it might take awhile.

[ThoughtCriminal]

20. Heaven and Hell may be the same place

I you love only yourself, if you want power, if you get pleasure from the suffering of others, if you are only happy if have more than everyone else, then Heaven may be a terrible place.

Learning to be a good person, even when it means sacrifice, is not a way to get to Heaven, it may be essential to appreciating it. I think many people who are very "Religious" might be initially dissapointed to find that Heaven is not an eternal vacation resort. People who value love of others above all else, will be delighted.

[catbert836]

22. That's a very interesting viewpoint.

Thanks. I've never thought of that before. :hi:

[tulsakatz]

23. the other day, I read a message from a conservative...

....that referenced Satan. When I first read it, I just started to laugh!!!

The concept of hell or Satan is just too fundamentalist to me. I just don't believe in it.

If God is love and God created me, why would he choose to punish me?

Another term I object to is 'God-fearing'. Why should I fear God? We should love God, not fear what he will do to us if we don't! A person can't love and fear at the same time.........it's one or the other but you can't do both at the same time.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

24. First all, I believe the fearing of God comes from another language

and means "Awe stricken!". It does not mean Be afraid, be very afraid in our vernacular of today, but to be in AWE!

I once had a discussion with my pastor about the Biblical translations of today, this is a direct quote and very funny in today's terms. I said (summarizing) "Pastor, there are so many arguments today as to what is the true Bible, the translations, words, meanings etc. She said, "We have to interpret the meaning of the words in the KJV in todays culture with the understanding of the old worlds meanings of those words, because can you imagine (the direct translation for a marriage gift", and they "Give him an ass!".

All, I could think of was Chinese fire drills, and flipping the moon to people (it was a younger persons indiscretion as Bush supporters would put it!".

I am a Christian who takes offense to anyone who says that Christianity teaches anything other than what I have espoused. The God of the OT is not the God/Lord that I follow, and it is not the same GOD of the Major Muslim/Judaic groups also.

Don't mess with my beliefs and I won't with yours! There are to many people who have every right to diss our beliefs, why? , because too many people build mansions sectioning to those who need clear directions! They, (the calf's being fatted for the slaughter are to naive to get it!"

[WhiteTara]

27. hell fire and brimstone

are all christian concepts.

but then of course the other idea is that hell is a state of mind. That hell is seperation from the beloved, being "God" and that earth has both its hellish and heavenly aspects. The Hindu say that is suka/duka or the pleasure pain syndrome

Hell was a primorial goddess who cradles people during their death and takes them back into the earth.

I think the devil dressed in his red comes from the use of bright red for the Catholic cardinals. During the torturing of witches they were constantly asked what the devil looked like and the tortured woman could look at the man and call him her devil through satire on his robes.

Inanna, the goddess of Sumaria, voluntarily decended into the afterworld where her sister Ershkigal was goddess of the underworld. Through the the help of a beetle, Inanna was revived and walked out of death world back into the light. But because of the rules of underworld, she had to send someone back in her place...but that's another story.

John Lennon said it best

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

But who's to say...maybe death really is the wages of sin; only Oral Roberts can save me now :shrug: :rofl:

[JerseygirlCT]

28. I do not believe in the standard idea of hell

as a place where some are sent, while others are not.

I believe that hell may be a willful separation of oneself from God's love. Love that is willingly and openly given to every single person -- (and for me, that means no strings attached, no "loyalty oaths" no particular profession of belief required). I imagine there are some people who will simply be unwilling and unready to simply accept being loved. Being outside of that might be considered hell.

But I also don't think that's a static position. That is, choose now or be doomed, sort of thing. I imagine a loving God who is always ready to love God's children. I think it may be hard to even learn to BE loved for some people. Perhaps some of us need more time. Time doesn't matter to God, however.

I think the "traditional" view of hell is more about a human need to separate out "us" and "them". What good is it being a member of the club if just anyone can join?

[kwassa]

29. Amen.

Complete agreement.

[morningglory]

30. I believe hell is here on earth, during our lifetimes, we can make our own

hell. Don't you think * is living in hell, complete with the aforementioned "inability to love".

[SPKrazy]

31. I Don't Know But I Think It Is Reserved For Genocidal Maniacs

mass murderers, people who do everything they can to hurt others.

Maybe it is like Robin Williams movie "What Dreams May Come" where hell is something we create for ourselves where even in death there is a repetition compulsion that our spirit doesn't get out of.

But really I just don't know. I often doubt the existence of hell. But then I see truly "evil" or bad people in the world (Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, etc.) who destroy others, cultures, and religions, and I doubt that they could go anywhere with the darkness that would have to encompass their spirit.


just my 2 cents

[ladjf]

32. Hell is a fairy tale.

[TreasonousBastard]

33. The well known Chistian hell is an invention...

based on older ideas of the afterlife, and popped up as a great marketing tool.

Curiously, the Old Testament talks of hell quite a bit, but Jewish belief doesn't go nearly as far as the fire and brimstone Christians like to talk about. Hell is more of a distancing from God, and not a punishment as such.

Personally, I have no idea what or where Hell is, or if it even exists. It's the present life that is important, and the afterlife will take care of itself.

[Meshuga]

41. Jewish afterlife

Hell or the idea of burning in hell is a Christian idea and not all theists believe in a hell or heaven or even in an afterlife.

Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. Many even believe in reincarnation. I personally believe there isn't an afterlife.

In general, Jewish thinkers have focused on the ways to lead a good life on Earth and improve this world, leaving concerns about death and beyond until the appropriate time. Judaism has stressed the natural fact of death and its role in giving life meaning. Since God is seen as ultimately just in Judaism, the seeming injustice on Earth has propelled many traditional Jewish thinkers into seeing the afterlife as a way to reflect the ultimate justice of human existence.

Traditional thinkers considered how individuals would be rewarded or punished after their deaths. There are a few rare descriptions of life after death. Traditionalists gave the name Gehenna to the place where souls were punished. Many Jewish thinkers noted that since, essentially, God is filled with mercy and love, punishment is not to be considered to be eternal. There are, similarly, many varying conceptions of paradise, such as that paradise is the place where we finally understand the true concept of God. It is also possible that there is no separate Heaven and Hell, only lesser or greater distance from God after death. In addition, punishment might be self-determined on the basis of suffering in kind the suffering the person brought about. That is, Judaism doesn't have a clear sense of Heaven and Hell, with different places in Hell for different punishments. Rather, the idea is that God uses the afterlife to provide ultimate justice and for the wicked to seek some sort of final redemption.

[Igel]

34. Moderately, simple,

but some has little textual support and isn't really all that crucial.

Hell 1: 'The grave.' When you die, you're dead; you're not conscious, you're dead. And you're buried. Or not. But that's 'hell' #1, and is what the original Germanic word meant. Hebrew she'ol, and what the NT use of 'aides (the invisible place) stands for. Oddly, for a good long time this was neatly a chamber under the place where bodies were put to decompose; when the bodies were reduced to skeletons, the bones would be gathered and chucked into the lower bone pit, so the OT 'gathered to his fathers' phrase is actually reasonably apt.

Hell 2: A temporary place where people that finally aren't acceptable to Jesus--when he's Judge, not the non-judgmental sacrifice. They're pitched in; they're destroyed. That's the end of them. No eternal suffering, just final destruction.

Supplementing that admittedly minority view is the even more minority view that everybody that hasn't had sufficient opportunity before death will have sufficient opportunity. This includes, presumably, Amorites and Canaanites.

I'm not sure this is necessarily a 'religious liberal's' view, but there you have it.

On edit: the second is ge'ena, a garbage dump in Jesus' day where trash was burned, and some could usually be found burning.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

36. It doesn't fit in with my views of God

however, I don't know. If there is a hell, then God is a white guy with a beard and a nightgown.

I think perhaps hell might be exclusion from God.

I don't worry about it, however.

[Dorian Gray]

37. Hell is more of a theological/philosophical

construct in my opinion. It's not a physical place, but an absence of God's love found through the personal rejection of His love. So, if I denied God, I would be Nothing. It's a sort of Nothingness.

I find the Faustian and the Dostoevskian philosophies to be quite apt, actually. Of course, I have no way to prove this belief, but I don't believe in fire and brimstone so much. More of an empty absence. A spiritual malaise. A melancholic nothingness.

[nemo137]

39. I'm not sure.

I'm honestly not sure. On the one hand, I cannot believe that a truly loving God would sentence any of his children to eternal torment. On the other, there's a very human part of me that wishes everlasting torment on some people. I think where I stand now is that there's either a sort of purgatory, where we see the effects of our inability to love our neighbors, or that we choose something, but then I don't know what.

I wish I could give you a more solid answer.

(all of that said, the Inferno is a really neat thing to read, and my friends and I who had it forced on us in high school play little games about where we'd end up.)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. My own beliefs are tending closer and closer to universalism as

I grow older. There are a few people of exceptional goodness and virtue in each generation, but most muddle along as best they can, no matter what their worldview is.

However, there are clearly those who deliberately choose evil and scoff at good. I'm undecided about what happens to them.

One of my former priests, a former Roman Catholic, said that the doctrine of purgatory made more sense to him than the doctrine of hell.

In fact, the doctrine of hell seems disproportionate.

There was a case in Oregon several years back of a man who beat his eight-year-old daughter to death. He claimed that she had "been bad."

As one sad and disgusted commentator said, "What could an eight-year-old girl have done that was so bad to have deserved the death penalty?"

That's how I feel about hell. Burning in unquenchable fire for all eternity sounds like a disproportionate punishment for anything that a mere human, even the worst human, could do.

[manic expression]

43. The concept itself is quite flawed

I don't think it exists. In fact, I would posit that it cannot exist period.

First, the thought that beings (people, among others) can be created from nothing, live a flash of a life and then be thrown into two categories according to that life forever more is absolutely laughable. Nothing, I repeat nothing, can appear and then go somewhere and stay there. All things begin, live and end only to begin once again; you can test this out in any way and it will work. To claim that something begins, lives and then goes to either an all bad place or an all good place is simply ignorant of existence itself.

Furthermore, such a concept is in defiance of any notion of justice. Doing bad things during a life that is in comparison astonishingly short does not equal being thrown into a fiery pit (or even a "love-less" pit) forever more at all. Therefore, it is impossible for such a thing to happen. To every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction; heaven and hell, once again, is rendered illogical by reality.

This is not to mention the ridiculousness of the concept of an omnipotent creator who is separate from everything else. Or that whole part about the immorality of such a predicament.

That's what I think about that flawed concept.

[skyblue]

44. Hell is Knowledge

When Eve bit the Apple she became Aware. If she did not Know she would be in paradise.

She probably also saw other people suffering and knew there was little she could do about it. Lots was up to God.