Why is the Pope blaming God for the Holocaust?

[hedgehog]

To me as a Catholic, it is clear that the Holocaust represents the triumph of evil. If anything, it is a rebuke to those that think people never choose evil. It was never part of "God's mysterious plan"!

[Proud_Democratt]

1. Cause he's German.

[tocqueville]

7. the Pope or God ? nt

[varkam]

37. God is an American.

What a silly question!

:sarcasm:

[beam me up scottie]

38. !

:D

[tocqueville]

46. Got mit uns ?

[varkam]

50. Nein. Nein.

Es ist "God Bless America!"

Hast du nicht gehort?

edit for crappy deutsch

[JVS]

126. Both of course!

[pnwmom]

2. What did he say exactly? I haven't heard about this. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. (Translation of) his speech here

- Constantly the question comes up: Where was God in those days? Why was he silent? How could he permit this endless slaughter, this triumph of evil?

- When all is said and done, we must continue to cry out humbly yet
insistently to God: Rouse yourself! Do not forget mankind, your creature!

http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/8640

[Imagine My Surprise]

8. I don't know who I hate more: Rat Face Ratinger or Bush

[tocqueville]

11. what has he done to you, except not being a Protestant ?

[pnwmom]

17. Who is more of a threat to the whole world right now?

that should be your answer.

[Proud_Democratt]

35. I agree with you.

Many Roman Catholics are deeply influenced by him....especially in Europe.

[pnwmom]

40. I am deeply offended by Ratzinger but I think Bush is a far greater threat

And from what I understand, western European catholics, at least, are fairly lax in terms of church attendance and other markers of the pope's influence. Italy, for example, has an extremely low birth rate despite the high numbers of Catholics and the official prohibition on birth control.

[roguevalley]

34. because if God didn't do it, man did and man is a wanker. name

a human being that has taken responsibility for their actions in 200 years. It means that there was something deeply wrong with the German psyche during those years.

[Imagine My Surprise]

3. Remember, he was also in Hitler's Nazi Youth...

Imagine My Surprise

[tocqueville]

9. everybody was at that time - or else, big deal

this only serves as catholic bashing

[msongs]

14. catholics and lutherans loved the nazi party -

the facts are that NOT EVERYBODY was in the hitler youth.

the facts are that German catholics were enthusiastically in favor of nazi policies.

hardly bashing to say so.

Msongs
www.msongs.com
batik & digital art
shirts and mugs

[pnwmom]

18. Most of those who OPPOSED the Nazis were Catholic, Lutheran, or Jewish.

Just as most of those who supported the party were Catholics and Lutherans.

That's simply how the population was made up.

It is bashing to say that German Catholics, as a group, were "enthusiastically" in favor of Nazi policies. That would be similar to saying that American Catholics are enthusiastically in favor of Bush's policies. Many of us enthusiastically detest Bush and his policies.

[onager]

131. Actually, many who opposed the Nazis were Communists.

Of course, according to the logic of DU religious apologists, that would automatically make them...atheists!

:sarcasm"

[Che_Nuevara]

23. ALMOST ALL Germans are Catholics or Lutherans, braniac.

That's sort of like saying "White people were enthusiastic supporters of Nazism, because almost everyone who supported Nazism were white people".

[tocqueville]

42. to be a hero demands to be very brave in those times

or very cunning. What I meant is that the guy was in the Hitler youth, as most of the other children and teens at that time because the social and parental pressure told them to do so. They maybe even thought it was OK, because they didn't know better. It doesn't make the guy a conscious criminal.

If tomorrow Bush ends up at the Hague, will it turn EVERY Marine into a Waffen SS ? The freepers can be bashed because they ACTIVELY CHOSE to SUPPORT the President, but the Marines, despite some Haditha incident, were just sent and many times just thought they were avenging 9/11, which doesn't make everyone a "baby-killer"....

From Wikipedia:

"Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth as membership was legally required after December 1936. According to one of Ratzinger's biographers, the National Catholic Reporter correspondent John Allen, he was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings. His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, because he believed it was in conflict with their faith. In 1941 one of Ratzinger's cousins with Down's Syndrome was murdered by the Nazi regime."

[pnwmom]

54. Exacty, tocqueville. Whatever we say now could be used against us!

Before we start condemning 14 year old children, we should start examining our own complicity.

[Zhade]

179. Hold on a second!

Now, I agree that criticizing Ratzinger for this is not necessary - there's plenty he's done in his adult life to ensure he's seen as the evil bigoted fuck he is - but this is nonsense:

"According to one of Ratzinger's biographers, the National Catholic Reporter correspondent John Allen, he was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings."

Um, yeah. Right. An apologist for the RCC claims that Ratzinger refused to attend meetings? Does he think we're stupid?

IIRC, when the Nazis wanted you to do something, you did it, or you paid a heavy price. And this apologist thinks we'll buy that Ratzinger got away with blowing off the meetings?

Give us SOME credit.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

64. Along with every other young person

of his generation. Including my inlaws. No choice.

[SPKrazy]

4. Linky, or at least a Quote? n/t

[Imagine My Surprise]

6. Here's link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060528/wl_nm/pope_poland_dc_22

Pope asks why God was silent at Auschwitz

[BayCityProgressive]

10. God wasn't

silent. God gives each of us free will. What we decide to do with it is our own choice. What would be the point of God creating humans if he had total control over them? This view of God is a little simplistic in my opinion..

[BayCityProgressive]

13. I don't know

if anyone is familiar with the Chaos Theory...basically says a butterfly flapping it's wings in Japan could effect weather patterns in the US. Well I definately believe in a kind of spiritual chaos theory. All the negative and positive things we do effect way more people than we may think. An anti-semitic comment to a friend behind closed doors, racist jokes when you think no one else is around.....you may not see the effects of the seeds you plant but they definately spread like weeds.

[SPKrazy]

12. I Guess I Would Say Pope, God Did Do Something About It

by allowing humankind the freedom to choose he allowed Germans to choose to support that government, and then allowed other nations to intervene and kick the Germans ass!

Now that is an overly simplistic explanation, but why would a German, who was a member of Hitler youth, and lived during the time of the Holocaust even ask the question.

Evil exists, and it exists in the hearts of men (and women)in this world.

It just didn't happen before 6 million Jews, and a few million others were killed by a nation gone mad!

We as a nation in the US may be heading down that path if we don't wake up the masses soon.

[pnwmom]

16. I think it was a rhetorical question, but it is a question many people ask

[Proud_Democratt]

22. There was NO Godly intervention during the Holocaust!!!!

6 million Jews were murdered!!!!!!!!:wtf:

[Che_Nuevara]

25. Well, now that Proud_Democratt has succinctly,

once and for all divined the designs, desires, and workings of God for us all, we can give this conversation up.

Maybe God got caught napping, and didn't wake up until 1943.

[Proud_Democratt]

27. Nice idea.....you can worship the God that allows KILLING....

and I'll wait for a nicer one to come along. Deal????

[Che_Nuevara]

28. I actually don't believe in or worship any god,

but that's just me. Plenty of other people do, and I respect that.

So do us all a favor and get off your high horse and admit that you, not being a divine being but rather a lowly homo sapien sapien like the rest of us, don't know for a fact either.

Also, do us all a favor and be a little more conservative in your use of punctuation.

[Proud_Democratt]

32. I will punctuate HOW I want and when I want!!!!!! Got that???

[Che_Nuevara]

33. Yes, I figured that out, actually.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

65. Man!!!!!! What ARE we without

punctuation?????? WTF????!!!!



Back to the topic. I like the idea that the earth is the realm of the other guy. Kind of like a trial we have to get through.

[hedgehog]

66. On the other hand -

would you want to be a prisoner of a God who constantly interferes, forcing you to be a puppet? If you could walk off the edge of a cliff and nothing happened, life would be a cartoon.

[catbert836]

67. Plus 5 million more

of the Roma people, the mentally and physically disabled, homosexuals, communists and socialists, as well as a few Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Proud_Democratt]

114. I find it strange and ironic how God can create the heavens and

the Earth in 6 days, but cannot perform one, witnessed, mission of mercy like saving the religious tribe that supposedly raised his earth born son, Jesus.

[pnwmom]

15. Thanks Muriel and Southpawkicker for the links. As I read this, hedgehog,

the Pope isn't blaming God. He's saying that none of us, on a gut level, can understand why God wouldn't interfere with the Holocaust. He's expressing the question almost any religious person has asked -- which is why, if God is all good and all powerful, such evil can exist. This is such a fundamental problem to religion that it even has a formal name: "The Theological Problem of Evil."

The Catholic answer, if I remember correctly, is that God has given humans free will, and so they are free to do evil things.

[SPKrazy]

19. It Is A Hard Question To Answer Without Admitting

that since I'm not God, I have no idea other than what you said and the idea that we are given free will and evil exists

[smirkymonkey]

75. Maybe because there is no god?

:shrug:

[shain from kane]

77. And the Popes claim infallibility. How does that square with enabling

the Nazis to murder so many. Big mistake.

[Union Thug]

20. Well, if God is almighty and good, he should have stepped in.

But since his is not all powerful, good, or real, he's an easy target.

[xchrom]

21. he is displaying, to no surprise, a juvenile understanding of the faith.

that's completely in character for this pope who sets peoples hair on fire over issues that belong in the twelvth century.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

24. However, whenever someone asks "Why would God let this happen?"

Most of the time religious authorities either ignore it or say that you have to be strong in your faith. I think it's good that he at least addressed it - even though he didn't really say much.

[Che_Nuevara]

26. Let's put this Hitler Youth bs to bed.

From Wikipedia:


"Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth as membership was legally required after December 1936. According to one of Ratzinger's biographers, the National Catholic Reporter correspondent John Allen, he was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings. His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, because he believed it was in conflict with their faith. In 1941 one of Ratzinger's cousins with Down's Syndrome was murdered by the Nazi regime."

[beam me up scottie]

29. I dislike the guy

and I have major issues with the policies of the catholic church, but I agree with you.

[Che_Nuevara]

30. I also dislike Ratzinger aka Benedict for many

political and philosophical reasons. But he wasn't a Nazi. Just a dick.

[Zhade]

180. See upthread. The apologia isn't convincing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=72188&mesg_id=73458

I don't buy it.

[beam me up scottie]

183. Maybe not.

But I'd rather point out how, when he visited Auschwitz last Sunday, after asking the question "Where was God?", he laid the blame for the Holocaust squarely at our feet.

I'll quote http://www.neuralgourmet.com/2006/05/30/atheismusmarken_frei">Modem Butterfly from her blog at http://www.neuralgourmet.com/">NG:

Pope Benedict, when confronted with a horrifying rebuttal to the Xian god, asked the obvious question. But instead of pursuing an answer, Pope Benedict took the coward's way out: he blamed someone else.

"When all is said and done, we must continue to cry out humbly yet insistantly to God: Rouse yourself! Do no forget mankind, your creature! Let us cry out to God with all our hearts at the present hour, when new misfortunes befall us, when all the forces of darkness seem to issue anew from human hearts: whether it is the abuse of Gods name as a means of justifying senseless violence against innocent persons, or the cynicism which refuses to acknowledge God and ridicules faith in him.

Now it is a fact that Nazism, like every other -ism, arose from the human heart. But what is amazing to me is that Pope Benedict is a person who believes in a deity that not only works in people's hearts, but in fact, created them, with all their potential for good and for mind-numbing horror. If God were a pharmaceutical corporation, and the human heart a device which could malfunction and create an act of genocide, God would be sued out of existence (or maybe not, depending on how many politicians he was able to buy off). But here's the Pope, not only letting the manufacturer off the hook, but in fact, coming up with a convenient scapegoat, i.e., you and me, fellow free-thinkers.

At the end of the day, you can't really blame the Pope Benedict for not wanting the rubes to get wise to the character of the man behind the curtain. And he has a point about folks who use their god's name to justify all sorts of bullshit (although we can certainly wonder if he realizes the role played by the church in the Holocaust). But to stand in a place like Auschwitz and equate violence performed in the name of religion with simply not believing in the supernatural shows an absolutely stunning lack of understanding of the Holocaust.

I think Modem will once again take the honors at the next Carnival of the Godless.

How about you?

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

185. Have you noticed

that his supporters never stick around for long?

[Name removed]

186. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

188. He's something else, isn't he?

He is one of the reasons I enjoy this forum so much.

He calls them as he sees them.

And his vision is exceptional.

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

193. Wow - now mentioning the posts were deleted, gets deleted.

Stunning.

Let's see if this post, which (like the previous one) contained absolutely NO attacks or anything against the rules, gets deleted.

[kwassa]

187. Elucidate

[beachmom]

72. Well, not TOTALLY compulsory

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/hitler_youth.htm

Movements for youngsters were part of German culture and the Hitler Youth had been created in the 1920's. By 1933 its membership stood at 100,000. After Hitler came to power, all other youth movements were abolished and as a result the Hitler Youth grew quickly. In 1936, the figure stood at 4 million members. In 1936, it became all but compulsory to join the Hitler Youth. Youths could avoid doing any active service if they paid their subscription but this became all but impossible after 1939.



It is my understanding that you couldn't go to college or have any career if you didn't join the Hitler Youth. That's not the same as saying your family would be sent to a concentration camp. Big difference. My opinion is that Ratzinger and his family were typical Germans during that time -- they went along to get along. Understandable? Yes. Admirable? Not really.

[Che_Nuevara]

74. I never once in my life said that Ratzinger was admirable.

Just not a Nazi.

[Bill McBlueState]

31. it's a legitimate question

If you're going to devote your life to worshipping a god, you should hold it to some standards. I sure wouldn't worship a god who was either too weak or too evil to prevent the Holocaust. I might acknowledge that god's existence, but I wouldn't worship it.

Same deal for gods that couldn't or wouldn't prevent 9/11.

[pnwmom]

41. And yet most Jews managed to hold onto their faith, and no one was more

sorely tested.

[FloridaPat]

36. The Catholic Church was working with Hitler so that he wouldn't

go against the Catholics. Hitler was Catholic and had tried to become a priest. The Catholic church decided he wasn't their type. Hitler then tried to become an artist, but sucked at that too. Next try was a dictator. In his case 3rd time was the charm. But we have * who apparently isn't going to get anything right in his life.

[pnwmom]

43. According to this atheistic web site, Hitler was born Catholic

but became "virulently anti-Christian" when he saw the churches as a threat to his plans.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/sn-hitler.html

"Once Hitler had gained power, he began to see Christianity as a threat to the National Socialists' domination of Germany. After 1935 his speeches and writings became more and more virulently anti-Christian; he argued that Christian worship was a sign of weakness, and that it should be replaced by reverence for the nation and the state, and of course for the National Socialist Party. However, he retained his belief in reincarnation, and his conviction that there was some supreme creative force whose will he was enacting.

"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity ... The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity."

"I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews."

[beam me up scottie]

45. Uh, those quotes are from Table Talk.

Not a reliable source for information on Hitler's religious beliefs.

[pnwmom]

47. I've seen them elsewhere, but this was the first site I ran across. Are

the quotes not correct?

[beam me up scottie]

48. They're hearsay.

From notes edited by the notoriously anti-catholic Bormann.

Hitler never renounced his faith.

[pnwmom]

52. Very few "fallen-away" Catholics formally renounce their faith. They just

stop practicing, as he to all appearances did.

Plus, he might have made a political calculation that it wouldn't get him anywhere to publically renounce his faith.

[beam me up scottie]

55. He stated over and over that he believed in the christian god.

He never stopped practicing anything.

No doubt he leaned more towards being a protestant than a catholic, but either way, he considered himself a christian.

[pnwmom]

58. I am not aware that those statements continued throughout his life.

But people say anything they want. It doesn't mean they're being truthful. Sometimes they just think it's good politics.

[beam me up scottie]

59. Yes, keep telling yourself that.

[pnwmom]

62. I agree with the writer here: the answer to whether Hitler remained

a Christian or not is complicated.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

It is a long essay, because the writer shows both sides of the argument. But here's a bit of it:

"It seems Hitler, like many modern-day politicians, spoke out of both sides of his mouth. And when he didn't, his lackeys did. It may have been political pandering, just like many of our current politicians who invoke God's name to gain support.

"Also, it seems probable that Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn't fight the Christian churches and their members right off the bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church.

"In fact, Anton Gil notes in his book, An Honourable Defeat: A History of German Resistance to Hitler, 1933-1945: 'For his part, Hitler naturally wanted to bring the church into line with everything else in his scheme of things. He knew he dare not simply eradicate it: that would not have been possible with such an international organisation, and he would have lost many Christian supporters had he tried to. His principal aim was to unify the German Evangelical Church under a pro-Nazi banner, and to come to an accommodation with the Catholics.'"

All of which reminds me of what Bush is trying to do; to unite the evangelicals and fundamentalists under a Republican party banner, and to come to an accomodation with Catholics.

[beam me up scottie]

70. So you believe in opinion instead of history?

You have that option, of course, but calling that essay an answer is ridiculous since it's the opinion of someone who used faulty logic and bogus quotes to support his conclusion.

Personally, I prefer historical facts to the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Unless you can provide proof that Hitler denounced his faith, don't expect me to believe historical revisionists like the author of that essay who based his opinion on Table Talk.

These are from Mein Kampf:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

“For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’”

“Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.”

“The anti-Semitism of the new movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”

“Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.”

“What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.”

“he world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free…”

If you have any evidence that's NOT based solely on your personal belief or that of others, that can refute those declarations, I'd like to hear it.

Until then, I'll leave you with a sample from the DU archives where no christian has ever been able to prove that Hitler wasn't a christian and links to threads where they came up short:

Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity

A damaging blow to any apologist argument against Hitler's Christianity comes from the fact that nowhere in any known source does Hitler denounce his Christianity or Jesus.

If one is to use the Table-Talk as evidence against Hitler's Christianity, then where does it appear? Nowhere in Trevor-Roper's introduction does he argue that Hitler was not a Christian.

Nowhere in the conversations of Table-Talk, does Hitler denounce his Christianity or Jesus.

On the contrary, Hitler's (or Bormann's editing) aims to show that the Church form of religion produces lies, and that the original Christian religion was an incarnation of Bolshevism, from a falsification from St. Paul. But whenever he mentions Christ, Hitler has nothing but admiration:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who too up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore-- of a whore and a Roman soldier.
The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galiean's object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that's why the Jews liquidated Him.
-Hitler

Christ was an Aryan, and St. Paul used his doctrine to mobilise the criminal underworld and thus organise a proto-Bolsevism.
-Hitler



As tortured as Hitler's logic is, He never condemns Jesus. On the contrary, he sees Jesus as an Aryan, a liberator against Jewish oppression! If Hitler did not see himself as a Christian, then why doesn't he condemn Jesus? Why doesn't he accuse Christ as being a Jew? Why does he see Christ as a liberator?

Biographer John Toland explains Hitler's reason for exterminating the Jews:

Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, 'I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so,' he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God-- so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty.

Moreover, there are no known documents, speeches, or proclamations by Hitler where he even comes close to denouncing his belief in Christianity, or Jesus.

The Protestant and Catholic Churches in Hitler's time never accused Hitler of apostasy. Hitler's Christianity in Germany was never questioned until years after WWII and then only by Western Christians who are embarrassed to have him as a member of their faith-system.

The reasoning by the apologists in regards to the Table-Talk seems to be that because Hitler spoke against organized religion, then he must therefore be anti-Christian. But even if we take this simplistic approach and assume the Table-Talk as the actual thoughts and beliefs of Hitler, it fails for the simple reason that dismissing a religion of one's own faith does not exclude or excuse one from a personal belief as a Christian. A Christian is simply a person who believes in God and Jesus in some form or manner. Christianity, the body of believing people, simply does not require organized religion at all.

There are many examples of prominent Christians who denounced religions who opposed their own personal beliefs. Indeed, the Protestant reformer, Martin Luther who was once a Catholic monk, denounced the Catholic hierarchy as the work of the anti-Christ and establised by the Devil . Yet I have yet to see a Lutheran accuse Luther as being a non-Christian. The history of Christianity is filled with examples of people of differing Christian faiths denouncing each other. I have personally conversed with many Christians who have denounced all forms of religious organizations, yet they have a strong belief in God and Jesus Christ.

Indeed, even the Table-Talk has Hitler saying:

Luther had the merit of rising against the Pope and the organisation of the Church. It was the first of the great revolutions. And thanks to his translation of the Bible, Luther replaced our dialects by the great German language! -Table-Talk

If simply speaking against a Christian religion were enough to oust one from Christianity, then some of the most influential Christians would have to reside with Hitler.

The papacy is truly the real power and tyranny of the Antichrist.... As beautiful as it was to keep a state of virginity, in the early days of Christianity, so abominable has it now become, when it is used as a means of eliciting Christ's help and grace. -Martin Luther (Luther's Confession, March 1528)

We maintain that the government of the Church was converted into a species of foul and insufferable tyranny. -John Calvin (The Necessity of Reforming the Church, 1544)

If we used the same logic of the apologists against Hitler, then we should remove Luther, Calvin, and many other prominent so-called-Christians from membership of Christianity.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

Myth 1: Hitler was not a Christian


The entire section on Hitler's Christianity provides ample evidence for his brand of Christianity. The evidence itself destroys any opinions or beliefs about Hitler's alleged apostasy.

The evidence shows that:

Hitler was born and baptized into Catholicism

His Jewish antisemitism came from his Christian background.

His early personal notes shows his interest in religion and Biblical views.

He believed that the Bible represented the history of mankind.

His Nazi party platform (their version of a constitution) included a section on Positive Christianity, and he never removed it.

He confessed his Christianity.

He tried to establish a united Reich German Church.

Hitler allowed the destruction of Jewish synagogues and temples, but not Christian churches.

He encouraged Nazis to worship in Christian churches.

He spoke of his Christian beliefs in his speeches and proclamations.

His contemporaries, friends, Protestant ministers and Catholics priests, including the Vatican, thought of Hitler as a Christian.

The Catholic Church never excommunicated Hitler. He died a Catholic.

To ignore the evidence of Hitler's Christianity demonstrates how power of belief can obscure the facts.

****************************

The Christianity of Hitler revealed in his speeches and proclamations

Compiled by Jim Walker

Originated: 27 Feb. 1997

Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today's Church leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper, or a false Christian. However, from the earliest formation of the Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. In the 1920s, Hitler's German Workers' Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a "Programme" with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a "positive" Christianity:

24. We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession....




Hitler's speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of faith. The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveals the strength of his Christian feelings:


My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922

Note, "brood of vipers" appears in Matt 3: 7 & 12:34. John 2:15 depicts Jesus driving out the money changers (adders) from the temple. The word "adders" also appears in Psalms 140:3


It will at any rate be my supreme task to see to it that in the newly awakened NSDAP, the adherents of both Confessions can live peacefully together side by side in order that they may take their stand in the common fight against the power which is the mortal foe of any true Christianity.
-Adolf Hitler, in an article headed "A New Beginning," 26 Feb. 1925


Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933





The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933




We want honestly to earn the resurrection of our people through our industry, our perseverance, our will. We ask not of the Almighty 'Lord, make us free'!-- we want to be active, to work, to agree together as brothers, to strive in rivalry with one another to bring about the hour when we can come before Him and when we may ask of Him: 'Lord, Thou seest that we have transformed ourselves, the German people is not longer the people of dishonour, of shame, of war within itself, of faintheartedness and little faith: no, Lord, the German people has become strong again in spirit, strong in will, strong in endurance, strong to bear all sacrifices.' 'Lord, we will not let Thee go: bless now our fight for our freedom; the fight we wage for our German people and Fatherland.'
-Adolf Hitler, giving prayer in a speech on May Day 1933



This is for us a ground for satisfaction, since we desire that the fight in the religious camps should come to an end... all political action in the parties will be forbidden to priests for all time, happy because we know what is wanted by millions who long to see in the priest only the comforter of their souls and not the representative of their political convictions.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the men of the SA. at Dormund, 9 July 1933 on the day after the signing of the Concordat.


National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State.... The decisive factor which can justify the existence alike of Church and State is the maintenance of men's spiritual and bodily health, for it that health were destroyed it would mean the end of the State and also the end of the Church.... It is my sincere hope that thereby for Germany, too, through free agreement there has been produced a final clarification of spheres in the functions of the State and of one Church.
-Adolf Hitler, on a wireless on 22 July, the evening before the Evangelical Church Election

The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism is hostile to religion is a lie.
-Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party (quoted from John Cornwell's "Hitler's Pope"


We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933




I believe that Providence would never have allowed us to see the victory of the Movement if it had the intention after all to destroy us at the end.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to old members of the Party at Munich on 8 Nov. 1933


The German Church and the People are practically the same body. Therefore there could be no issue between Church and State. The Church, as such, has nothing to do with political affairs. On the other hand, the State has nothing to do with the faith or inner organization of the Church. The election of November 12th would be an expression of church constituency, but not as a Church.
-Adolf Hitler, answering C. F. Macfarland about Church & State (in his book, The New Church and the New Germany)


While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.
-Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message on 1 Jan. 1934


Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.
-Adolf Hitler, speaking in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1934


It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934


We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people.... It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the "Old Guard" of the Party at Munich on 19 March, 1934


The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavour to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren ), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of to-day.
-Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda


No, it is not we that have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine (Lehre ) of the Confessions or with their religious freedom (Bekenntnisfreiheit ), nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends....
National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934


So far as the Evangelical Confessions are concerned we are determined to put an end to existing divisions, which are concerned only with the forms of organization, and to create a single Evangelical Church for the whole Reich....
And we know that were the great German reformer with us to-day he would rejoice to be freed from the necessity of his own time and, like Ulrich von Hutten, his last prayer would be not for the Churches of the separate States: it would be of Germany that he would think and of the Evangelical Church of Germany.
-Adolf Hitler, in his Proclamation at the Parteitag at Nuremberg on 5 Sept. 1934



What we are we have become not against, but with, the will of Providence. And so long as we are true and honourable and of good courage in fight, so long as we believe in our great work and do not capitulate, we shall continue to enjoy in the future the blessing of Providence.
-Adolf Hitler, at Rosenheim in Bavaria, 11 Aug. 1935


Only so you can appeal to your God and pray Him to support and bless your courage, your work, your perseverance, your strength, your resolution, and with all these your claim on life.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Frankfurt on 16 March 1936


In this world him who does not abandon himself the Almighty will not desert. Him who helps himself will the Almighty always also help; He will show him the way by which he can gain his rights, his freedom, and therefore his future.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Hamburg on 20 March 1936


Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.
-Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism


I believe in Providence and I believe Providence to be just. Therefore I believe that Providence always rewards the strong, the industrious, and the upright.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to National Socialist women at the Nuremberg Parteitag of 1936 <11 Sept. 1936>


So long as they concern themselves with their religious problems the State does not concern itself with them. But so soon as they attempt by any means whatsoever-- by letters, Encyclica, or otherwise-- to arrogate to themselves rights which belong to the State alone we shall force them back into their proper spiritual, pastoral activity.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin on the May Day festival, 1937


We National Socialists, too, have deep in our hearts our own faith. We cannot do otherwise. No man can mould the history of peoples or of the world unless he has upon his will and his capacities the blessing of Providence.
-Adolf Hitler, to Nazi leaders on 2 June 1937, as reported by a correspondent of the "Daily Telegraph"


I will never allow anyone to divide this people once more into religious camps, each fighting the other....
You, my Brown Guard, will regard it as a matter of course that this German people should go only by the way which Providence ordained for it when it gave to Germans the common language. So we go forward with the profoundest faith in God into the future. Would that which we have achieved have been possible if Providence had not helped us?
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Regensburg on 6 June 1937


If we pursue this way, if we are decent, industrious, and honest, if we so loyally and truly fulfill our duty, then it is my conviction that in the future as in the past the Lord God will always help us. In the long run He never leaves decent folk in the lurch. Often He may test them, He may send trials upon them, but in the long run He always lets His sun shine upon them once more and at the end He gives them His blessing.
-Adolf Hitler, at the Harvest Thanksgiving Festival on the Buckeburg held on 3 Oct. 1937


This Winter Help Work is also in the deepest sense a Christian work. When I see, as I so often do, poorly clad girls collecting with such infinite patience in order to care for those who are suffering from the cold while they themselves are shivering with cold, then I have the feeling that they are all apostles of a Christianity-- and in truth of a Christianity which can say with greater right than any other: This is the Christianity of an honest confession, for behind it stand not words but deeds.
-Adolf Hitler, speaking of the Winter Help Campaign on 5 Oct. 1937


Remain strong in your faith, as you were in former years. In this faith, in its close-knit unity our people to-day goes straight forward on its way and no power on earth will avail to stop it.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Coburg on 15 Oct. 1937


In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His blessing to our work and our action, to our judgement and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained for the German people, and that He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any danger.... I am convinced that men who are created by God should live in accordance with the will of the Almighty.... If Providence had not guided us I could often never have found these dizzy paths.... Thus it is that we National Socialists, too, have in the depths of our hearts our faith. We cannot do otherwise: no man can fashion world-history or the history of peoples unless upon his purpose and his powers there rests the blessings of this Providence.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Wurzburg on 27 June 1937


National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a 'volkic' political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship.... We will not allow mystically-minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord.... Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.
-Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept. 1938.




The National Socialist Movement has wrought this miracle. If Almighty God granted success to this work, then the Party was His instrument.
-Adolf Hitler, in his proclamation to the German People on 1 Jan. 1939


Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:
1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views (Einstellung), nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted.... The Churches are the greatest landed proprietors after the State... Further, the Church in the National Socialist State is in many ways favoured in regard to taxation, and for gifts, legacies, &c., it enjoys immunity from taxation.
It is therefore, to put mildly-- effrontery when especially foreign politicians make bold to speak of hostility to religion in the Third Reich.... I would allow myself only one question: what contributions during the same period have France, England, or the United States made through the State from the public funds?
3. The National Socialist State has not closed a church, nor has it prevented the holding of a religious service, nor has it ever exercised any influence upon the form of a religious service. It has not exercised any pressure upon the doctrine nor on the profession of faith of any of the Confessions. In the National Socialist State anyone is free to seek his blessedness after his own fashion.... There are ten thousands and ten thousands of priests of all the Christian Confessions who perform their ecclesiastical duties just as well as or probably better than the political agitators without ever coming into conflict with the laws of the State.... This State has only once intervened in the internal regulation of the Churches, that is when I myself in 1933 endeavoured to unite the weak and divided Protestant Churches of the different States into one great and powerful Evangelical Church of the Reich. That attempt failed through the opposition of the bishops of some States; it was therefore abandoned. For it is in the last resort not our task to defend or even to strengthen the Evangelical Church through violence against its own representatives.... But on one point it is well that there should be no uncertainty: the German priest as servant of God we shall protect, the priest as political enemy of the German State we shall destroy.
-Adolf Hitler, a speech in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1939


If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbour, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians. For in these spheres the community of the people of National Socialist Germany has accomplished a prodigious work.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the "Old Guard" at Munich on 24 Feb. 1939


Sources:

Baynes, Norman H. Ed. "The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939," Vol. 1 of 2, Oxford University Press, 1942

Cornwell, John, "Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII," Viking, 1999

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=29436

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=29436

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=46721

[catbert836]

68. Hitler's religion is an interesting topic.

From is many public statements concerning his faith in Christianity, plus the fact that most to all of his allegedly anti-Christian comments he never said, we have to conclude that he remained a Christian throughout his life. However, his Christianity was influenced a great bit by Odinism, and he only reconciled worshipping Jesus, who was a Jew, by a theory that said Mary was impregnated by a Roman soldier, thus technically making him an Aryan. So, Hitler's Christianity was certainly warped, just like that of Robertson and Falwell, we can't say that he wasn't a Christian.

[kwassa]

69. I can say Hitler wasn't a Christian. It is quite easy to do.

It all depends on how you define a Christian, of course. To some, but not very many, anyone who says they are a Christian is one, regardless of how they behave. Clearly, nothing in Hitler's behavior would make him a Christian, and he was not active in the Church throughout his adult life. He was quite repressive towards many religious figures

Hitler really created his own state religion of Naziism. It was not an atheistic state religion, nor was it Christian, founded primarily on racial and nationalistic ideas.

This "Hitler was a Christian" meme is a central agenda item of certain atheists who have a political agenda at stake; quite simply, to make Hitler's crimes Christian religious crimes. This is the real truth of the situation. There is little historical basis for this if the whole of Hitler's life and acts are considered.

The transparency of this agenda is incredible, the false arguements easily defeated, yet it goes around and around and around on this group. This is only because it is so important to some atheists.

[beam me up scottie]

71. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

The transparent agenda of historical revisionists and apologetics is incredible, the false arguments easily defeated, yet it goes around and around and around on this group.

The christians are the ones using the No True Scotsman fallacy, kwassa, because they believe they have the authority to redefine christianity in order to exclude Hitler.

We, on the other hand, have provided irrefutable evidence that Hitler believed in the christian god.




Prove that Hitler renounced his christian faith or stop wasting our time.



And just like last time, kwassa, your opinion is not proof, no matter how much you think of yourself.

;)

[catbert836]

73. ....

It all depends on how you define a Christian, of course. To some, but not very many, anyone who says they are a Christian is one, regardless of how they behave. Clearly, nothing in Hitler's behavior would make him a Christian

"No True Scotsman" again, kwassa. The reason I trust that anyone who says they are a Christian is one is because that's really all anyone has to go on. Sure, you may think he never behaved like a Christian, but that begs the question of who gets to decide what behavior constitutes Christianity. Who is it? You? Fred Phelps?

]he was not active in the Church throughout his adult life. He was quite repressive towards many religious figures.

Yes, however the German Conference of Catholic Bishops during the Nazi era saw fit to began their meetings with a "Heil Hitler". He and the Church, as well as many various Protestant sects, were just fine with each other. And I've never heard of any prominent religious figure who was oppressed by Hitler or even stood up to him within the Reich.

Hitler really created his own state religion of Naziism. It was not an atheistic state religion, nor was it Christian, founded primarily on racial and nationalistic ideas.

Although several higher-ups in the Reich wanted to replace Christianity with National Socialism, Hitler felt that all such attempts would be foolish, and never tried to create a state religion of any kind. Rather, he saw the Church as another way to hold sway over the masses.

This "Hitler was a Christian" meme is a central agenda item of certain atheists who have a political agenda at stake; quite simply, to make Hitler's crimes Christian religious crimes. This is the real truth of the situation. There is little historical basis for this if the whole of Hitler's life and acts are considered.

The transparency of this agenda is incredible, the false arguements easily defeated, yet it goes around and around and around on this group. This is only because it is so important to some atheists.

Now you're just whining. I have never heard the blame for the Holocaust or the Third Reich being laid at Christianity's door. You're grossly overreacting. I wonder why so many Christians are offended by the fact that Hitler was one of them. We're not blaming all you guys for what Hitler did, but its very obvious from a historical viewpoint that he indeed was a Christian.

Please, point me to any false arguments you have easily defeated in this conversation.

[beam me up scottie]

76. Very good point, catbert.

Nobody on this board has ever said that christianity was to blame for Hitler.

We just take issue with the No True Scotsman fallacy when they try to use it to prove that bad people aren't good enough to be christians.

Christians who claim inherent moral superiority and try to disown any christian who might embarrass them are bigots.

It's too bad they are unable to get past their ignorance and intolerance and realize that christians are not morally superior to non-christians.

[kwassa]

78. No true Christian would be a Nazi.

Guilt-by-association.

And the utterly phony 'no true Scotsman'. No true Christian would be a Nazi. It is that simple.

catbert83:
"The reason I trust that anyone who says they are a Christian is one is because that's really all anyone has to go on"

Uh, no, this is your criteria, and yours alone. There are many different criteria one could go on, but you chose this one. It does suit the agenda of some atheists to make this comparison, and it comes around here over and over again.... It is a product of atheist web sites, so there is more than a bit of agenda going on here.

Like I said, transparent.

Bottom line, there are many different ways one can be judged or not judged to be a Christian. Anyone with a tiny understanding of the teachings of Jesus could not consider Hitler a Christian. I note that the "evidence" supporting this notion is from Hitler's political speeches. Since Hitler was attempting to manipulate the masses with these speeches and an inveterate liar, there is no reason to consider this evidence at all. We can only consider his actions, which certainly contain no Christian element whatsoever.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn1.htm

quote:

Range of definitions of "Christian:"

There are also many distinct definitions of the term "Christian" (pronounced 'kristee`ân). Different people have defined a "Christian" as a person who has:

1. Heard the Gospel in a certain way, and accepted its message, or
2. Become "saved" -- i.e. they have trusted Jesus as Lord and Savior), or
3. Been baptized as an infant, or
4. Gone to church regularly, or
5. Recited and agreed with a specific church creed or creeds, or
6. Simply tried to understand and follow Jesus' teachings, or
7. Led a decent life.

Following these different definitions, the percentage of North American adults who are Christians currently ranges from less than 1% to about 75%.

[beam me up scottie]

79. "No True Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

No true Scotsman
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


No true Scotsman is a term coined by Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking. It refers to an argument which takes this form:

Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Reply: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."
Rebuttal: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

This form of argument is a fallacy if the predicate ("putting sugar on porridge") is not actually contradictory for the accepted definition of the subject ("Scotsman"), or if the definition of the subject is silently adjusted after the fact to make the rebuttal work.

Some elements or actions are exclusively contradictory to the subject, and therefore aren't fallacies. The statement "No true vegetarian would eat a beef steak" is not fallacious because it follows from the accepted definition of "vegetarian:" Eating meat, by definition, disqualifies a (present-tense) categorization among vegetarians, and the further value judgment between a "true vegetarian" and the implied "false vegetarian" cannot likewise be categorized as a fallacy, given the clear disjunction. In logic, the mutually exclusive contradiction is called a logical disjunction.

Using the context of culture, individuals of any particular religion, for example, may tend to employ this fallacy. The statement "no true Christian" would do some such thing is often a fallacy, since the term "Christian" is used by a wide and disparate variety of people. This broad nature of the category is such that its use has very little meaning when it comes to defining a narrow property or behaviour. If there is no one accepted definition of the subject, then the definition must be understood in context, or defined in the initial argument for the discussion at hand.

It is also a common fallacy in politics, in which critics may condemn their colleagues as not being "true" liberals or conservatives because they occasionally disagree on certain matters of policy. It comes in many other forms - "No decent person would" - it is argued "support hanging/watch pornography/smoke in public", etc. Often the speaker seems unaware that he/she is, in fact, coercively (re)defining what the phrase "decent person" means to include/exclude what he/she wants and NOT simply following what the phrase is already accepted as meaning. The argument shifts the debate from being about hanging/pornography/smoking and tries to make it seem that anyone disagreeing with the speaker is arguing for the "indecent".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Take it up with Wikipedia and Antony Flew, kwassa.

Or God.

Yeah, that's it, just have God let us know exactly what the definition of a christian is.

And while you're at it, have him fax us a list of all of the true christians, too.

It sure would come in handy and would spare you the trouble of deciding who does and who doesn't qualify.

:rofl:

[kwassa]

84. Reading is fundamental

For starters, there is no reason that I have to accept Wikipedia as a source, but I would point out that you are felled by your own quotation:

"The statement "no true Christian" would do some such thing is often a fallacy, since the term "Christian" is used by a wide and disparate variety of people."

end of quote:

note the use of the word "often", not "always"

As I said before, some atheist's agenda, and nothing more.

[beam me up scottie]

93. Reading comprehension problems, kwassa?

Your entire argument is a textbook case of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

This form of argument is a fallacy if the predicate ("putting sugar on porridge") is not actually contradictory for the accepted definition of the subject ("Scotsman"), or if the definition of the subject is silently adjusted after the fact to make the rebuttal work.

Have God get back to me with those definitions, will you?

I challenge your authority.

[catbert836]

80. That's convenient

So you get to define who's a true Christian. I assume any minute Jesus will descend from on high and announce it to the world that kwassa alone is the definer of true Christianity. :sarcasm:

And the utterly phony 'no true Scotsman'. No true Christian would be a Nazi. It is that simple.

Upwards of 90% of Nazi party members were self-proclaimed Christians. But I guess they're not Christians, because you don't think they are.

Look, kwassa, I'm not trying to blame you or any other Christian with Hitler's actions. But Hitler, and most Nazis, were indeed Christians, by their own admition.

this is your criteria, and yours alone. There are many different criteria one could go on, but you chose this one. It does suit the agenda of some atheists to make this comparison, and it comes around here over and over again.... It is a product of atheist web sites, so there is more than a bit of agenda going on here.

However, your criteria for "true Christianity" is also yours and yours alone. Make no mistake: not everyone shares it. I'm sure your criteria would be a lot different that those of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or Fred Phelps, for example.

Oh, yeah, blame those GODDAMN ATHEISTS. Nevermind that there is irrefutable evidence that Hitler was a Christian based on what his own words.

Bottom line, there are many different ways one can be judged or not judged to be a Christian. Anyone with a tiny understanding of the teachings of Jesus could not consider Hitler a Christian. I note that the "evidence" supporting this notion is from Hitler's political speeches. Since Hitler was attempting to manipulate the masses with these speeches and an inveterate liar, there is no reason to consider this evidence at all. We can only consider his actions, which certainly contain no Christian element whatsoever.

People's beliefs very often do not guide their actions. For example, if every Christian were to follow Jesus' teachings, this would be a much happier and saner world. I seriously doubt that there are many people around or who have been around who truly follow Jesus' teachings to a t. These people, according to your criteria, are/were the only true Christians.

There are also many distinct definitions of the term "Christian" (pronounced 'kristee`ân). Different people have defined a "Christian" as a person who has:

1. Heard the Gospel in a certain way, and accepted its message, or
2. Become "saved" -- i.e. they have trusted Jesus as Lord and Savior), or
3. Been baptized as an infant, or
4. Gone to church regularly, or
5. Recited and agreed with a specific church creed or creeds, or
6. Simply tried to understand and follow Jesus' teachings, or
7. Led a decent life.

Following these different definitions, the percentage of North American adults who are Christians currently ranges from less than 1% to about 75%.

Therein lies the problem, kwassa. You could use all of these definitions to define "Christian", just one of them, or several. Any one person is likely to have a different selection than the next. Since there are so many varying definitions of the word, we're left with only someone's word that they're a Christian or not.

Hitler was indeed a liar. However, we currently have no reason to believe that his remarks concerning his Christianity were lies.

[beam me up scottie]

81. "Oh, yeah, blame those GODDAMN ATHEISTS"

:spray:You're killing me, catbert!

[catbert836]

82. I do my part.

:toast:

[beam me up scottie]

83. Your father and I are so proud of you.

:cry:

[catbert836]

85. Thanks, mom!

Heh heh.

[kwassa]

87. You folks seem to be into much back-slapping

Make you feel better?

[beam me up scottie]

89. Well, catbert IS an honorary member of the Whackjob Atheist Corps.

He received his rubber chicken, badge and secret decoder ring quite some time ago.

[kwassa]

112. So, back-slapping is part of the ritual of your Corps?

It certainly would seem so.

[beam me up scottie]

115. Well if I told you that,

I'd have to kill you.
:evilgrin:






edited to add smilie so I don't get smited by the mods

[catbert836]

92. Does it bother you that much?

It shouldn't, your group does enough of it as well.

[kwassa]

110. Actually, they don't.

One of the differences I've noticed over time.

This has been commented on before, as well, as the difference between the groups.

[beam me up scottie]

118. Yeah, the atheists don't claim the other guys own this forum and the mods

are in on it.

[kwassa]

86. Self-identification isn't enough.

catbert836:

"Since there are so many varying definitions of the word, we're left with only someone's word that they're a Christian or not."

Wrong. We can judge them by their actions, as actions speak much much louder than words. Words are cheap. He who walks the walk, not he who talks.

"Hitler was indeed a liar. However, we currently have no reason to believe that his remarks concerning his Christianity were lies."

We would have no reason to believe otherwise, actually. There is no more natural conclusion than this. To consider these words truthful would be the aberration.

Like I said before, a political agenda item of some atheists.

[beam me up scottie]

88. Yes, catbert.

Listen to kwassa.

He's the only one allowed to decide who's christian and who's not.

[kwassa]

98. It is simply political agenda.

I never said I was the only one to decide.

That is your statement.

[beam me up scottie]

101. You claim to know that Hitler wasn't a christian.

I want irrefutable proof of that.

And your opinions and personal beliefs, like I've explained many times before, aren't proof.

[catbert836]

91. And again.

We can judge them by their actions, as actions speak much much louder than words. Words are cheap. He who walks the walk.

If the name Christian were exclusive to people who follow and act out Jesus' teachings, which seems to be your definition, than the number of Christians would be very small indeed.

We would have no reason to believe otherwise, actually. There is no more natural conclusion than this. To consider these words truthful would be the aberration.

We have no reason to believe Hitler did not believe in Jesus Christ and the God of the Bible, since he said a number of times that he did. Most historians and historically-minded people are inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt about his personal beliefs, because no one else truly knew what they were. He reaffirmed his Christian beliefs time and again, leading any reasonable person to conclude that without any evidence to the contrary, Hitler personally was a Christian believer.

[kwassa]

104. try as you might

catbert:
"If the name Christian were exclusive to people who follow and act out Jesus' teachings, which seems to be your definition, than the number of Christians would be very small indeed."

They are very small indeed. You are correct, sir.

"We have no reason to believe Hitler did not believe in Jesus Christ and the God of the Bible, since he said a number of times that he did."

As I said before, his speeches are worthless, and he said he believed in many other things as well, including pagan beliefs, German Nationalism, racial purity, most of which were much more important in his life. He clearly oppressed clergy and churches.

"Most historians and historically-minded people are inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt about his personal beliefs, because no one else truly knew what they were."

The only correct thing you said was "no one else truly knew what they were". You give him the benefit of the doubt. There is great division as to whether or not Hitler could be considered a Christian, you present it as foregone conclusion. What is clear is that it is important as a concept only to some atheists. Why would that be?

"He reaffirmed his Christian beliefs time and again, leading any reasonable person to conclude that without any evidence to the contrary, Hitler personally was a Christian believer."

A reasonable person would consider the totality of Hitler, not focus on the clearly very minor role that Christianity played in his entire life, or his belief system, if any role was played at all. Through his actions, he was one of the great monsters, and anti-Christians of history, if the teachings of Jesus have any value at all.

[beam me up scottie]

106. A reasonable person wouldn't think they could decide who is christian

and who isn't.


That would be God's job, wouldn't it?

[kwassa]

109. Incorrect.

Reasonable people can figure this out.

[beam me up scottie]

113. Nope, reasonable people don't think they can read the minds of dead people

But we're talking about you here, aren't we?

I'm waiting for your proof.

And for the umpteenth time, your opinion isn't proof.

[Dorian Gray]

135. Well, to be fair,

we don't need to read Hitler's mind. We have Mein Kampf out there for all to read. Oh, and all the historical records, his political speeches, and oh... his actions... which definitely put a question mark on his "Christianity." Can one hate and torture Jews and still be a "proper" Christian? One would have to follow Jesus' two commandments to the best of their abilities to do so: Love God and Love One Another as you love Me. Not to mention that Jesus, according to the New Testament, was Jewish. So, can one hate the Jewish and still be a follower of Christ?

I would think that Hitler's whole life was anathema to that, as are many other historical "Christian" leaders. But, with the mix of Paganism, Nationalism, and Aryanism at the core of his beliefs, I think it's a valid question to study whether Hitler was still actually Christian or not.

I'm not denying in any way that he was influenced by his Catholic background or German Christianity (Lutheranism). He definitely invoked Christian terms and ideas in his speeches. But, to remain a practicing Catholic, one must attend masses throughout their lives. History shows that he didn't maintain a weekely mass attendance, nor did he fully embrace Lutheranism. So, while he never officially renounced Christianity, he didn't formally practice Christianity, either.

So, can't the answer be that he was a lapsed Christian? That's how I would define him. According to both Catholic and Lutheran beliefs, the belief in the Occult is anathema to Christianity, and he was into the Occult.

None of this means, however, that he was an atheist. His interest in the occult proves that he wasn't an atheist. And he does believe in God, and he believes in Jesus, but not the biblical Jewish Jesus. Can one deny Him, His Ancestry, and His two commandments and still be a Christian? One can proclaim that they are Christians, but when you deny who Jesus is and deny His two commandments, at the very least you are a horrible Christian. But, I would suspect that your Christian faith is false.

And I honestly don't understand why that is problematic.

[beam me up scottie]

137. YOU don't get to determine who's christian and neither does kwassa.

I don't understand why that's problematic.

And yes, you would need to read someone's mind in order to determine that they are lying when they declare, repeatedly, that they are a christian and believe in the christian god.


I'm still waiting for kwassa to provide proof that Hitler renounced his faith.


He's come up short every time.


And you have no more credibility than he does.



Let's look at your "proof":


Mein Kampf?

Here you go:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."



“For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’”



“Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.”



“The anti-Semitism of the new movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”



“Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.”



“What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.”




“he world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free…”

Speeches?

Here you go:

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922

Note, "brood of vipers" appears in Matt 3: 7 & 12:34. John 2:15 depicts Jesus driving out the money changers (adders) from the temple. The word "adders" also appears in Psalms 140:3


It will at any rate be my supreme task to see to it that in the newly awakened NSDAP, the adherents of both Confessions can live peacefully together side by side in order that they may take their stand in the common fight against the power which is the mortal foe of any true Christianity.
-Adolf Hitler, in an article headed "A New Beginning," 26 Feb. 1925


Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933





The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933




We want honestly to earn the resurrection of our people through our industry, our perseverance, our will. We ask not of the Almighty 'Lord, make us free'!-- we want to be active, to work, to agree together as brothers, to strive in rivalry with one another to bring about the hour when we can come before Him and when we may ask of Him: 'Lord, Thou seest that we have transformed ourselves, the German people is not longer the people of dishonour, of shame, of war within itself, of faintheartedness and little faith: no, Lord, the German people has become strong again in spirit, strong in will, strong in endurance, strong to bear all sacrifices.' 'Lord, we will not let Thee go: bless now our fight for our freedom; the fight we wage for our German people and Fatherland.'
-Adolf Hitler, giving prayer in a speech on May Day 1933



This is for us a ground for satisfaction, since we desire that the fight in the religious camps should come to an end... all political action in the parties will be forbidden to priests for all time, happy because we know what is wanted by millions who long to see in the priest only the comforter of their souls and not the representative of their political convictions.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the men of the SA. at Dormund, 9 July 1933 on the day after the signing of the Concordat.


National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State.... The decisive factor which can justify the existence alike of Church and State is the maintenance of men's spiritual and bodily health, for it that health were destroyed it would mean the end of the State and also the end of the Church.... It is my sincere hope that thereby for Germany, too, through free agreement there has been produced a final clarification of spheres in the functions of the State and of one Church.
-Adolf Hitler, on a wireless on 22 July, the evening before the Evangelical Church Election

The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism is hostile to religion is a lie.
-Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party (quoted from John Cornwell's "Hitler's Pope"


We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933




I believe that Providence would never have allowed us to see the victory of the Movement if it had the intention after all to destroy us at the end.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to old members of the Party at Munich on 8 Nov. 1933


The German Church and the People are practically the same body. Therefore there could be no issue between Church and State. The Church, as such, has nothing to do with political affairs. On the other hand, the State has nothing to do with the faith or inner organization of the Church. The election of November 12th would be an expression of church constituency, but not as a Church.
-Adolf Hitler, answering C. F. Macfarland about Church & State (in his book, The New Church and the New Germany)


While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.
-Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message on 1 Jan. 1934


Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.
-Adolf Hitler, speaking in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1934


It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934


We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people.... It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the "Old Guard" of the Party at Munich on 19 March, 1934


The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavour to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren ), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of to-day.
-Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda


No, it is not we that have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine (Lehre ) of the Confessions or with their religious freedom (Bekenntnisfreiheit ), nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends....
National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934


So far as the Evangelical Confessions are concerned we are determined to put an end to existing divisions, which are concerned only with the forms of organization, and to create a single Evangelical Church for the whole Reich....
And we know that were the great German reformer with us to-day he would rejoice to be freed from the necessity of his own time and, like Ulrich von Hutten, his last prayer would be not for the Churches of the separate States: it would be of Germany that he would think and of the Evangelical Church of Germany.
-Adolf Hitler, in his Proclamation at the Parteitag at Nuremberg on 5 Sept. 1934



What we are we have become not against, but with, the will of Providence. And so long as we are true and honourable and of good courage in fight, so long as we believe in our great work and do not capitulate, we shall continue to enjoy in the future the blessing of Providence.
-Adolf Hitler, at Rosenheim in Bavaria, 11 Aug. 1935


Only so you can appeal to your God and pray Him to support and bless your courage, your work, your perseverance, your strength, your resolution, and with all these your claim on life.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Frankfurt on 16 March 1936


In this world him who does not abandon himself the Almighty will not desert. Him who helps himself will the Almighty always also help; He will show him the way by which he can gain his rights, his freedom, and therefore his future.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Hamburg on 20 March 1936


Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.
-Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism


I believe in Providence and I believe Providence to be just. Therefore I believe that Providence always rewards the strong, the industrious, and the upright.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to National Socialist women at the Nuremberg Parteitag of 1936 <11 Sept. 1936>


So long as they concern themselves with their religious problems the State does not concern itself with them. But so soon as they attempt by any means whatsoever-- by letters, Encyclica, or otherwise-- to arrogate to themselves rights which belong to the State alone we shall force them back into their proper spiritual, pastoral activity.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin on the May Day festival, 1937


We National Socialists, too, have deep in our hearts our own faith. We cannot do otherwise. No man can mould the history of peoples or of the world unless he has upon his will and his capacities the blessing of Providence.
-Adolf Hitler, to Nazi leaders on 2 June 1937, as reported by a correspondent of the "Daily Telegraph"


I will never allow anyone to divide this people once more into religious camps, each fighting the other....
You, my Brown Guard, will regard it as a matter of course that this German people should go only by the way which Providence ordained for it when it gave to Germans the common language. So we go forward with the profoundest faith in God into the future. Would that which we have achieved have been possible if Providence had not helped us?
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Regensburg on 6 June 1937


If we pursue this way, if we are decent, industrious, and honest, if we so loyally and truly fulfill our duty, then it is my conviction that in the future as in the past the Lord God will always help us. In the long run He never leaves decent folk in the lurch. Often He may test them, He may send trials upon them, but in the long run He always lets His sun shine upon them once more and at the end He gives them His blessing.
-Adolf Hitler, at the Harvest Thanksgiving Festival on the Buckeburg held on 3 Oct. 1937


This Winter Help Work is also in the deepest sense a Christian work. When I see, as I so often do, poorly clad girls collecting with such infinite patience in order to care for those who are suffering from the cold while they themselves are shivering with cold, then I have the feeling that they are all apostles of a Christianity-- and in truth of a Christianity which can say with greater right than any other: This is the Christianity of an honest confession, for behind it stand not words but deeds.
-Adolf Hitler, speaking of the Winter Help Campaign on 5 Oct. 1937


Remain strong in your faith, as you were in former years. In this faith, in its close-knit unity our people to-day goes straight forward on its way and no power on earth will avail to stop it.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Coburg on 15 Oct. 1937


In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His blessing to our work and our action, to our judgement and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained for the German people, and that He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any danger.... I am convinced that men who are created by God should live in accordance with the will of the Almighty.... If Providence had not guided us I could often never have found these dizzy paths.... Thus it is that we National Socialists, too, have in the depths of our hearts our faith. We cannot do otherwise: no man can fashion world-history or the history of peoples unless upon his purpose and his powers there rests the blessings of this Providence.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Wurzburg on 27 June 1937


National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a 'volkic' political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship.... We will not allow mystically-minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord.... Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.
-Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept. 1938.




The National Socialist Movement has wrought this miracle. If Almighty God granted success to this work, then the Party was His instrument.
-Adolf Hitler, in his proclamation to the German People on 1 Jan. 1939


Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:
1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views (Einstellung), nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted.... The Churches are the greatest landed proprietors after the State... Further, the Church in the National Socialist State is in many ways favoured in regard to taxation, and for gifts, legacies, &c., it enjoys immunity from taxation.
It is therefore, to put mildly-- effrontery when especially foreign politicians make bold to speak of hostility to religion in the Third Reich.... I would allow myself only one question: what contributions during the same period have France, England, or the United States made through the State from the public funds?
3. The National Socialist State has not closed a church, nor has it prevented the holding of a religious service, nor has it ever exercised any influence upon the form of a religious service. It has not exercised any pressure upon the doctrine nor on the profession of faith of any of the Confessions. In the National Socialist State anyone is free to seek his blessedness after his own fashion.... There are ten thousands and ten thousands of priests of all the Christian Confessions who perform their ecclesiastical duties just as well as or probably better than the political agitators without ever coming into conflict with the laws of the State.... This State has only once intervened in the internal regulation of the Churches, that is when I myself in 1933 endeavoured to unite the weak and divided Protestant Churches of the different States into one great and powerful Evangelical Church of the Reich. That attempt failed through the opposition of the bishops of some States; it was therefore abandoned. For it is in the last resort not our task to defend or even to strengthen the Evangelical Church through violence against its own representatives.... But on one point it is well that there should be no uncertainty: the German priest as servant of God we shall protect, the priest as political enemy of the German State we shall destroy.
-Adolf Hitler, a speech in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1939


If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbour, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians. For in these spheres the community of the people of National Socialist Germany has accomplished a prodigious work.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the "Old Guard" at Munich on 24 Feb. 1939


Sources:

Baynes, Norman H. Ed. "The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939," Vol. 1 of 2, Oxford University Press, 1942

Cornwell, John, "Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII," Viking, 1999

Sure sounds like a christian to me.



And for his actions, who gave you the authority to decide who is christian and who isn't?


If it was up to you guys, nobody would be a christian, because Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson would swear on a stack of bibles that you can't be a liberal and a christian, while you guys love to claim that they can't be conservative and be christian.


So we're back to why I should take your word for it that you just know that he wasn't a christian.




I'll wait for you to get back to me with the answer.





I just love the No True Scotsman fallacy, really, it's hilarious how you guys cling to that soggy piece of driftwood as if it will keep you afloat in a sea of bad logic and wishful thinking.

[Dorian Gray]

150. "You have no credibility"

Hey, look, I don't care if you think I have no credibility or not. I am explaining to you why those who are Christian don't see Hitler as Christian. You're the one hell bent on arguing. I don't give a crap if you believe he was a Christian or not.

But, all the quotes from Mein Kampf prove he is a Deist. No talk of Jesus or Christianity.


As for his speeches, you put quite a few there. Did you read them thoroughly? Cause there is an evolution to them. His earlier writings and speeches espouse more Christian ideals. His later ones speak of the faith of the National Socialists. He claims that he has not shut churches down, and that they have a priviledged place in his society. So what?

"
The National Socialist Movement has wrought this miracle. If Almighty God granted success to this work, then the Party was His instrument.
-Adolf Hitler, in his proclamation to the German People on 1 Jan. 1939"

Your quote.

I never claimed that Hitler didn't believe in God.

Being a Christian, or in my case, a Catholic is much more than some general snippets of acknowledgement that there is a God. To be a practicing Catholic in good faith, you should attend Mass weekly and on all Holy Days. You need to behave in a way that is not anathema to God's purpose in this world (FOLLOWING CHRIST'S TWO COMMANDMENTS is the primary step!).

There are millions of Catholics in this world. Since Hitler was actually baptized in the Catholic faith, it is fair to say that he became a LAPSED CATHOLIC. The ideal of National Socialism, with its trappings of ordination from God, became his focus and his religion. He didn't continue to go to mass, despite arguments that the Catholic Church was complicit in the Holocaust, Hitler didn't plan the extermination of the Jews in the name of the Catholic Church, nor did the Catholic Church uniformly accept Germany's actions in WWII.

Claiming Hitler's religious beliefs is complicated. You can not say that he was simply a Christian or not a Christian. He was influenced by more than that, and though he may have held on to Christian trappings, he did not practice CATHOLICISM OR LUTHERANISM, the two primary Christian Churches in Germany, in his later years. He certainly wasn't born again, so what strain of Christianity was Hitler practicing?

I am not saying that he wasn't a Christian because I think he was a murderous atheist. Give me a break!

And, to be fair, Beam Me Up Scotty, you don't particularly hold any "authority" for me, either. I've seen those quotes in countless other threads. You want me to post quotes? I can do google nobeliefs.com and find the same quotes. Whoop de doo. But, I'll do the same thing for you...


ALL QUOTES from YEARS AFTER THE QUOTES YOU POSTED (which end in 1939):

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:


National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:


Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:


The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:


The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:


Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:


Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)


14th December, 1941, midday:


Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:


There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:


It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)






Now, you see? The answer is more complicated than just a yes or no answer. You insist that he was Christian. I insist that he was influenced by Christian beliefs, but his actions (works) show that he was, at the least, a bad Christian. A lapsed Catholic. A Christian who had fallen away from the Church.

Why that is so offensive to you, I don't know. It's not like I'm saying he was an athesit and it was because of his atheism that he was an asshole. He definitely was a Deist. He beleived in a God. He also mixed German Paganism lore with the Occult, mixed it up a bit, and added it to his Christian beliefs to come up with some German new agey mix of nothingness that justified his slaughter of MILLIONS OF PEOPLE!

[beam me up scottie]

155. Okay then, he was a bad christian.

THe only dog I have in this fight is the use of the No True Scotsman fallacy by christians who think their religious beliefs make them morally superior to non-christians.

[Dorian Gray]

162. Okay...

He was a bad Christian. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad! (Oh, and a bad human being, too!) :)

[trotsky]

128. You are not a Christian then, kwassa.

You are full of the sin of pride. You judge and belittle others. I don't see you building people up, I see you attempting to tear them down. You therefore are no Christian.

[Zhade]

181. Walks the walk, eh? Then YOU'RE not a Christian.

Your professed savior had something to say about not judging others.

Since you fail to "walk the walk" in that regard, and judge others - including other Christians - you are, by your own argument, not a Christian.

You may SAY you're one, but clearly you're not, because you defy the very definition you give as to who is a 'true Christian'.

[lvx35]

90. The defining trait of dictators is that they lie.

They lie to gain power. Its absurd to think that Hitler was really a Christian, just as its absurd to beleive that was the great leader he claimed to be. Why do some people just take Hitler at face value when he says this one thing about his internal state? It has nothing to do with external states, like being a Scotsman does...It has to do with accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour, which tends to go along with a belief of the gospels ABOUT Jesus. Now Christians have bent over backwards in some cases to back "just war" type theories that let them act as soldiers at all, but its simply impossible that anybody who believed the gospels could have could have signed off on the final solution as Hitler did. I mean, people have known forever that Jesus was GENETICALLY Jewish, a rabbi...That's not new information. Believing in the gospels while exterminating millions of members of Jesus's race on the GENETIC grounds is simply impossible, it makes NO sense!

[beam me up scottie]

94. No True Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

You folks do have a difficult time with reading comprehension, don't you?

Prove that Hitler didn't accept Jesus Christ as his lord and saviour.


Or get with kwassa and have God fax me the list of true christians.

I challenge your authority as well.

[kwassa]

95. "No True Scotsman" is a totally fallacious argument

"Prove that Hitler didn't accept Jesus Christ as his lord and saviour."

I don't need to. His actions speak for themselves.

[beam me up scottie]

99. Yes, you do need to prove otherwise.

I challenge your authority to decide who is christian and who isn't.

I thought you were going to get me a list from God.

[lvx35]

103. You are incorrect.

The burden of proof is on the person making the absurd argument, such as claiming that Hitler wiped out 6 million people of the same race as Jesus because he was a follower of Jesus. You must prove that the greatest liar of the 20th century was telling the truth on this matter.

[beam me up scottie]

105. Nope, sorry.

Hitler is the one who declared over and over again that he was a christian.

YOU need to prove otherwise.


And claiming that you just KNOW he isn't doesn't constitute proof.



Save yourself some time and have God fax me the short list.

[kwassa]

107. No, I don't.

What I am pointing out to you is that the decision is as to who a true Christian is an issue that gets strong debate among many different people who call themselves Christian. I don't expect a non-Christian such as yourself to understand that.

The fact that YOU have assigned Christianity to Hitler is not particularly meaningful. I gave a number of different definitions of "who is a Christian". There is no reason I or anyone else must accept your definition.

And, like I said before, the "Hitler is a Christian" is a meme of some atheists political agenda, meant to smear Christianity with Hitler's crimes.

That is why this idea appears over and over again in this forum, in my opinion.

[beam me up scottie]

111. Your opinion and five bucks will get me a cappuccino at Starbucks.

You don't have the authority to decide who is christian.

Period.

[kwassa]

116. Guess what? You don't either.

So how do you have the temerity to claim that Hitler is a Christian? You also don't have that authority.

You just lost your argument.

Set, game, match.

[beam me up scottie]

119. Wow, you are a novice aren't you?

Hitler said he was a christian.

Repeatedly.

In his bible, in his personal notes, in Mein Kampf, to trusted friends and clergy and in speeches.


And you, kwassa, have no more credibility than he does.


So, about that list from God...

[kwassa]

120. You need to understand that your have completely lost your argument

You talked yourself into a trap. You have not told me how YOU have the authority to decide who is Christian or not. You have the authority to say that we have to take Hitler at his word.

Where did you get this authority? From God?

favorite quotes from BMUS:

bmus:
"A reasonable person wouldn't think they could decide who is christian
and who isn't."
That would be God's job, wouldn't it?"

"I challenge your authority to decide who is christian and who isn't.
I thought you were going to get me a list from God."

"You don't have the authority to decide who is christian.
Period."

[beam me up scottie]

121. Individual christians get to decide if they're christian, kwassa, not you.

You don't have the authority to tell them otherwise and neither do I.

The difference is that I acknowledge it.


You have no more credibility than any other person who claims they are christian.


Get me that list from God if you want to prove you're right.

Because your opinion doesn't mean a thing.

[kwassa]

130. But you just told me it was God's job to decide that.

Can't make up your mind, can you? You contradict yourself, of course.

Either it is the individual's job, or God's job. I really think it is up to God. This is what you've said yourself.

So, when you declare Hitler a Christian, or he himself declares himself a Christian, it is not up to you or Hitler, is it?

[beam me up scottie]

132. If it's up to God, why are you telling us who is and who isn't a christian

Pay attention this time.


Your claim that you are a christian is no more credible than Hitler's.

It's between the christian in question and God.

kwassa has absolutely nothing to do with it.

You don't have the authority to decide if anyone else is a christian or not.



Is that simple enough for you?

[kwassa]

133. If it is up to God, how can you claim Hitler is a Christian?

You are caught in your own contradiction.

Once again.

[beam me up scottie]

138. I didn't claim that, HE did.

Honestly, I don't understand why this is so difficult for you kwassa.

Even little kids can grasp the fact that you can't read someone's mind.


Let's try again.




When a person declares that they believe in the christian god, and that they are a christian, you, kwassa, not being omnipotent, do not have the authority to determine that they are not.




With me so far?


Okay, now read this part slowly:



the ONLY ONE who can decide if THAT person, who DECLARED that they were a CHRISTIAN, is INDEED a CHRISTIAN, would be the big guy, the head honcho, the man with a plan, you know, God.




Not exactly rocket science, is it?

[kwassa]

148. Which is why you lost this argument awhile ago,

And the transparent political agenda of some atheists to repeat "Hitler is a Christian" to create guilt-by-association is exposed one more time.

Hitler said all kinds of things about himself. Somehow certain atheists only concentrate on the so-called Christian part. Would that be you, BMUS?

You really did create your own trap in this argument. It is fun to watch you try to wiggle out of it.

[beam me up scottie]

156. Wishful thinking on your part, kwassa, since you still have no proof

Hitler said he was a christian and you can't prove that he wasn't.

End of story.

[kwassa]

164. Hitler stating he was a Christian is not evidence of anything

He was a pathological liar.

You've had nothing from the beginning of this argument, you stated that only God could decide who was a Christian, then you reneged and decided that Hitler could be one just by saying so.

This is neither rational nor logical.

[beam me up scottie]

165. Saying Hitler wasn't a christian because kwassa says so isn't evidence

to the contrary.

Face it, kwassa, you've failed time and time again to prove Hitler wasn't a christian.

All you have are the No True Scotsman fallacy and wishful thinking to back up your claim.

Your argument consists of "Hitler wasn't a christian because I don't believe he was."

I find your denial to be irrational and your belief that you have the right to decide who is and isn't a christian to be arrogant.

[kwassa]

167. The burden of proof is upon those who assert Hitler's Christianity

You claim that Hitler was a Christian, the burden of evidence is on you. You have no evidence but his speeches, and it is well-known that he was a liar. You have no evidence, in other words. He was also factually known to state a belief in many other things, all which you choose to ignore. Hitler also made many anti-religious statements.

You later claim that only God can tell if someone is a Christian or not, then changed your mind when you got trapped in your own words, which you did very neatly. I notice that you have not owned up to your own words.

You also misuse the No Scotman fallacy, which was pointed out before, but you continue to cite it.

I'm done with this, because as I have said, you hung yourself on your own words a long time ago.

I know you will be the last to respond, because you really can't help yourself, but you were defeated in this argument a couple of days ago.

Denial is not a defense.

[beam me up scottie]

170. Hitler said he was a christian. Just like you say you are, kwassa.

His word about his faith is as credible as any other christian's.

[kwassa]

172. Sorry, you are changing the rules of the game when you start to lose

nice try, but you are being a huge hypocrit in this thread.

Want me to quote you again?

[beam me up scottie]

173. Nope. Same No True Scotsman fallacy, same rules as before.

Hitler claimed he was a christian and believed in the christian god.

If you expect me to believe your claim that he wasn't, you have to provide proof he renounced his faith.


And you can't.


But I enjoy watching you dance, kwassa.



Come on, tell me again why Hitler wasn't a christian.:D

[kwassa]

176. Your claim, your proof, have offered nothing, thread over.

You have been a complete hypocrite in this thread, denying your own words.

hilarious.

[beam me up scottie]

178. ROFLMAO !!! Now you think you can decide when a thread is over?

:rofl:

I guess that's not much of a reach for someone who thinks they can decide who is a real christian and who's isn't.



What are you going to do for your next trick?



:D

[Dorian Gray]

136. The statement should be...

"You don't have the authority to decide who isn't Christian."

As initially stated, the obvious response would be... "Nor do you."

[beam me up scottie]

139. Wow. Did you figure that out all by yourself?

Very good, I'm thoroughly impressed.:applause:


Good thing I'm not expecting anyone to take MY word for it.


Just Hitler's.


You know, because he said it over and over and over and over and over again.


In his notes, in his bible, in his speeches, and in his conversations with friends, family, colleagues and clergy.





And before you start in with the tired old No True Scotsman fallacy, you have no more credibility than any other christian.


Your opinion is as worthless as kwassa's.

[kwassa]

149. And who is to decide whose opinion has value?

You? Who gave you any authority in this?

It must be a heavy load carrying that chip the size of a boulder on your shoulder. Never gives you any rest, does it?

[beam me up scottie]

157. Opinion is useless when it's all you have for evidence of a belief.

You believe that Hitler wasn't a christian and you think I should take your word for it.

Your word is no more credible than Hitler's.

[kwassa]

163. Hitler stating a claim to be Christian is not evidence

You lost this argument longggggg aggoooooo.

[beam me up scottie]

171. You don’t get to decide who is and who isn’t a christian, kwassa.

His word and that of other self-professed christians are as good as yours.

[Dorian Gray]

151. "Your opinion is as worthless as kwassa's."

Nice way to speak to fellow posters, huh? So rude!

I just pointed out the obvious, but it needed to be pointed out. What you said was incorrect, and it sort of proved the person's point that you were arguing with.

As for my opinion, it is worth about as much as yours or anybody else's on this website. You know... opinions and assholes, everybody's got one. Because I am a Christian, my opinion doesn't diminish. I've never claimed that your opinion meant less because you're an atheist.

And, for the record, I don't identify myself by my Christianity. But, I also do not have a rigid world view. I try to listen to other people, read what they say, and take it all in. You absolutely refuse to do so in this argument, and your rudeness towards me, someone who has taken pains to discuss, understand and truly read the words that you and other atheists have written on these boards reagarding religion, is pretty obnoxious.

Oh, crap! I forgot. My opinion is worthless. :hurts:

[beam me up scottie]

158. Yep, in this context, it is.

Your opinion does not trump history and the point of this argument was to debunk the No True Scotsman fallacy used by kwassa and others who think their beliefs about Hitler are as valid as historical facts.

But you knew that.

[Dorian Gray]

160. I never said that my opinion trumped history....

I am taking history into account when I make my opinions regarding the religion that Hitler was. All of it. The Christianity. The Occult. The Paganism. The National Socialism. It's complicated. You are the one who refuses to acknowledge all of it. You focus on one small part of his influences and repeat over and over and over and over again that he was a Christian. Hitler was MANY THINGS. Hitler was influenced by many ideologies. That's NOT opinion.

But, if you need to make excuses that Jesus was actually born from a Roman Soldier rather than from God and His Jewish mother to justify worshipping Him... you know... because you hate JEWS? Well, then you are on the wrong track! And that is blasphemous, according to the Catholic Church. It certainly is not in line with any of the Church teachings that I know.

So, again, where is my pointing out that your saying that Kwassa didn't have the right to determine who was Christian was met with your rude response. You stated something wrong, and it disproved the point that you were trying to make. You are insisting that Hitler was a Christian. I am not insisting that he wasn't, actually. What I am insisting upon is that his history is more complicated, and you can not box him solely into Christianity. There was more to his story, which you seem to be denying. Maybe you are not. Do you also believe he dabbled in the Occult? Do you believe that he also used Pagan rhetoric? Do you believe that the highest ideal in his life-view was the Motherland and Fatherland, not, actually, Jesus? Because they are all mitigating factors in his life and the horrors that resulted from his beliefs.

[beam me up scottie]

166. How ridiculous.

I have been waiting for someone to prove that Hitler wasn't a christian.

No one here has been able to do that.

If you have proof that he didn't believe in the christian god, please provide it.

[kwassa]

168. You never proved Hitler was a Christian. Your claim, you prove.

Take some responsibility.

[beam me up scottie]

169. I don't have to, kwassa. He said he was-you need to prove otherwise.

You have to provide evidence that he renounced his faith.

[kwassa]

174. But you said it was up to God to decide, not Hitler

You certainly like to change your tune when you start to lose an argument. Sounds quite hypocritical.

Can't wiggle out. Your own words.

[beam me up scottie]

177. Using the reading comprehension defense again, kwassa?

I'll type slowly and use little words this time.


If person A (Hitler) claims they are a christian, and believe in the christian god,
person B (kwassa), does not have the author-* oops, sorry, that's a big word, cannot tell them that they're not a christian.

Only God, let me repeat that, only GOD can decide IF person A is or isn't a christian.


Again:

Person A says they are a christian

God can decide if they're lying

kwassa can't




God can

kwassa can't



I can't make it any simpler, kwassa.

[catbert836]

189. Okay.

I am taking history into account when I make my opinions regarding the religion that Hitler was. All of it. The Christianity. The Occult. The Paganism. The National Socialism. It's complicated. You are the one who refuses to acknowledge all of it. You focus on one small part of his influences and repeat over and over and over and over again that he was a Christian. Hitler was MANY THINGS. Hitler was influenced by many ideologies. That's NOT opinion.

Okay. He was many things, among them a Christian.

But, if you need to make excuses that Jesus was actually born from a Roman Soldier rather than from God and His Jewish mother to justify worshipping Him... you know... because you hate JEWS? Well, then you are on the wrong track! And that is blasphemous, according to the Catholic Church. It certainly is not in line with any of the Church teachings that I know.

Hitler's Christianity was certainly unorthodox. Some might even call it warped. That doesn't make it not Christianity, as there have been countless theories regarding Jesus' humanity/divinity, most of them at some point supported by a number of self-proclaimed Christians.

So, again, where is my pointing out that your saying that Kwassa didn't have the right to determine who was Christian was met with your rude response. You stated something wrong, and it disproved the point that you were trying to make. You are insisting that Hitler was a Christian. I am not insisting that he wasn't, actually. What I am insisting upon is that his history is more complicated, and you can not box him solely into Christianity. There was more to his story, which you seem to be denying. Maybe you are not. Do you also believe he dabbled in the Occult? Do you believe that he also used Pagan rhetoric? Do you believe that the highest ideal in his life-view was the Motherland and Fatherland, not, actually, Jesus? Because they are all mitigating factors in his life and the horrors that resulted from his beliefs.

Hitler actually wasn't very into the occult, although a number of Nazis were, primarily members of the anti-Semetic neo-Odinist Thule Society. Most of them were expelled after the Nazi party gained control of the government. But that's a story for another time.

The bottom line is that Hitler WAS a Christian, despite how that may offend his co-religionists. I can sympathize with that, as I have trouble sometimes believing Hitler was from the same species as me. But the facts speak for themselves. Hitler cannot be excluded from Christianity by any mortal human.

[Dorian Gray]

195. Catbert...

I have absolutely no argument with your post. I can agree with this: "Hitler's Christianity was certainly unorthodox. Some might even call it warped. That doesn't make it not Christianity, as there have been countless theories regarding Jesus' humanity/divinity, most of them at some point supported by a number of self-proclaimed Christians."

I actually will agree 100%.

[beam me up scottie]

96. And no true christian would lie.

Right?

[Dorian Gray]

152. Of course Christians lie....

all the time. Hitler may be a self-identified Christian. He may not be. It is more complicated than just calling him a Christian or not.

Do you deny his dablling in the Occult or speaking in Paganist terms? His was a cult of personality, where the state was the highest ideal. Christian, Occult and Paganism all were a part of his political, religious, and social outlook, but I don't claim that he was an Occultist or a Pagan, either. His faith was a weird mixture of many things. To me, that's simple to see.

As for your question, Christians lie all the time. There have been some horrible Popes in the history of the Catholic Church. (Just read about the Borgias, if you will.) They were evil. Much evil has been done in the name of Christianity. I don't believe that the evil of the Holocaust was done in the name of Christianity. It was done in the name of National Socialism and statehood. And though Hitler's beliefs may have been influenced by his earlier Christianity, that was not the ideal in which millions of people were routinely exterminated.

Perhaps that is where we can begin to agree on the matter.

[beam me up scottie]

159. That's why the No True Scotsman fallacy is a fallacy.

If you were paying attention, you'd notice that my entire argument was about that fallacy, whatever other beliefs Hitler may or may not have had don't have anything to do with it.

[Dorian Gray]

161. Oh, and silly little old me...

I thought the argument was about Hitler. I didn't know that arguing about an fallacy could get so passionate!!

[beam me up scottie]

182. Oh, that's nothing.

See kwassa doesn't just think he can read the minds of other christians, he thinks he can read the minds of atheists as well.

Come back and visit us the next time he tells us what we do and don't believe.

And make sure you bring enough popcorn for everybody.

[Dorian Gray]

201. Well, that's another issue,

and I'm sure that it's infuriating to have someone tell you what you do and what you don't believe. Nobody can presume to do that. Nobody. All we have to judge anybody in this world on is their actions.

[catbert836]

97. I recommend you read the entire sub-thread.

Why do some people just take Hitler at face value when he says this one thing about his internal state?

Because his word is all we have to go on when it comes to his internal state.

It has to do with accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour, which tends to go along with a belief of the gospels ABOUT Jesus. Now Christians have bent over backwards in some cases to back "just war" type theories that let them act as soldiers at all, but its simply impossible that anybody who believed the gospels could have could have signed off on the final solution as Hitler did.

What people believe and the way in which they act often do not correlate.

I mean, people have known forever that Jesus was GENETICALLY Jewish, a rabbi...That's not new information. Believing in the gospels while exterminating millions of members of Jesus's race on the GENETIC grounds is simply impossible, it makes NO sense!

Hitler believed that Jesus was an Aryan, a complicated theory which involved Mary being impregnated by a Roman soldier. His Christianity was certainly warped, but then so is the Christianity of Falwell and Robertson.

[lvx35]

108. Again, you are making the mistake of taking Hitler at face value, against.

a large body of evidence of why you should not do this. I recommend looking at the overt way which Hitler and Goebbels talked about propaganda, and the manufacture of it. Its no secret to history that much of the mythos of the Aryan race were largely constructed propaganda devices. As far as Hitler's ACTUAL beliefs, they are simply too obviously intertwined with Nietzsche with his endless rants against the jews and the christians fr me to take the idea that Hitler was a christian seriously.

[beam me up scottie]

117. And we should take your word for it because?

You have no more credibility than any other person who claims they are christian.

[Proud_Democratt]

100. The defining trait of dictators is that they lie....

would apply to Bush also.

[beam me up scottie]

102. Well, gosh, Proud Democrat, real christians don't lie.

Everybody knows that.

They're morally superior to non-christians.

[Proud_Democratt]

122. They're accustomed to ..."living a lie"

[beam me up scottie]

123. I didn't mean that.

Just that some of them equate christianity with morality.

My neighbor, for instance, tells me all the time who's not a christian.

Everyone she doesn't like and mean people don't make her list.

[Proud_Democratt]

124. There are many Christians that are very moral. However,

social "morays" have changed.
100 years ago, many men of God were married to 13 year old girls...they were considered moral.
100 years ago, many men of God beat their children hard...they were considered moral.

There's a difference between morals and morays!

[beam me up scottie]

125. Morals, morays and morans.

I'll take morays for $200, Alex.

[trotsky]

129. But there is no absolute agreement on just what the gospels say.

Women - can they speak in church? Hold leadership positions? Be priests?

Homosexuality - OK? What about homosexual marriage?

War - justified ever?

When you get all the Christians in the world to agree on those and the many other conflicting messages in the New Testament, come back here and we'll all admit you're right. Until then, you couldn't be more wrong.

[lvx35]

140. Its just common sense trotsky.

No rocket science whatsoever. Seriously, if we take the message of the gospels on various issues, and hold them next to the atheist philsopher Nietzsche, you will see with complete clarity which one influenced Hitler more. A quick search on Google turns up this essay:
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/133p/133p04papers/MKalishNietzNazi046.htm
Which lays it out...The bonds are deep:

A doctrine is needed powerful enough to work as a breeding agent: strengthening the strong, paralyzing and destructive for the world weary. The annihilation of the decaying races. Decay of Europe.-The annihilation of slavish evaluations.-Dominion over the earth as a means of producing a higher type.-The annihilation of the tartuffery called 'morality.' The annihilation of suffrage universel; i.e. the system through which the lowest natures prescribe themselves as laws for the higher.-The annihilation of mediocrity and its acceptance (The one sided, individuals – peoples; to strike for fullness of nature through the pairing of opposites: race mixture to this end). The new courage – no a priori truths…-Nietzche

Where in the Gospels, does Jesus, genetically a jew, blame his own race for the problems of the world? Claim the existence of a master race of outline a program of eugenics? This is pure Nietzche. But where on this forum do we EVER here him or his atheism condemned for the holocaust?

[beam me up scottie]

141. So where in Mein Kampf does Hitler mention Nietzsche?

He talks about the influence the Lord God had on him all the time, so I'm sure he wouldn't leave out any other philosopher if they had that much influence on his beliefs.

[lvx35]

143. You have to look at what doctrine was acted out.

For instance, many people in prison claim to be law abiding citizens, but we know they did crimes...But we don't let their claims negatively affect our view of law abiding citizens, nor do we sit around saying that "Joe Murderer was a law abiding citizen" just because he says he is, when his actions reflect a different story. Similarly, we shouldn't sit around saying that "Hitler was a Christian" because he said he is, when his actions tell a very different story. Being a law abiding citizen or Christian both are open to some degree of interpretation, but ultimately they imply certain actions.

I'm not trying to say that Christianity implies perfection. I can see how the crusades, the inquisition WERE rooted in interpretations of the gospels, but its historically inaccurate to say that Hitler was a Christian, because his actions, his doctrine, was not really rooted in the gospels at all. Its a disservice and distraction from the real root issues that lay behind fascism.

[beam me up scottie]

144. Historically inaccurate?

Give me a break.

All the historical evidence supports the fact that Hitler believed in the christian god.

You want me to take your word for it that he wasn't a christian because that's what you want to believe.

That's not evidence, that's selective thinking and a textbook case of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

[Dorian Gray]

153. I am sure that the German people

would embrace the extermination of the Roma, the Jewish and anybody in the way of the Great Society in the name of Nietzsche!

It's political rhetoric. Dean, Clinton, Kerry, Bush, Cheney, not to mention our very founding fathers, many of whom didn't subscribe to Christianity completely (Jefferson!), all use it.

[trotsky]

142. Um, lvx?

Where on this forum have we EVER seen Christianity or Christians condemned for the Holocaust?

You seem to have this active imagination that atheists are actively blaming today's Christians for everything bad done in their religion's name. I understand that being a member of the privileged group that is usually exempt from any sort of negative talk or genuine criticism, it can be shocking in an unprotected forum when you encounter it. But that's no reason to lash out, is it?

I think a very strong case can be made for Nietzsche influencing the Third Reich. But then so can one be made for Martin Luther. Or Nordic paganism. Or the Catholic Church, for centuries prior, and their official persecution of the Jews. Clearly there are many factors, Christianity included. That's all we're trying to say.

[lvx35]

145. Well fine! :)

I think that any culture that was there at the time can be looked at as playing into the whole picture. Its just a matter of looking at the individuals. Pope Benny is a fine example, made to join Hitler youth, looking around at the world wondering "what the hell?" Its just people like anybody, some of us trying to make a life based on the ideals of Christian tradition, some us trying other things. Sometimes some of our ideas work, sometimes they clash, and terrible wars ensue. Its all nonsense in the end. It really doesn't matter much to me, the ideals. In the end its just about hate and love. Despite my point here, people really do HATE in the name of Christ, and I think this is the point you atheists are making. And what can I say? Its true. The christ symbol doesn't prevent us from hating each other.Its really all nonsense, the traditions, the symbols, the religions, the books. They are all just trying to point at something that in hate and fearfulness we all refuse to see.

So who am I to argue?

[beam me up scottie]

146. For the record,

I don't think Ratzi is or was a Nazi.
I don't believe he wanted to join the Hitler Youth.

And I've said so many times.

You aren't responsible for the actions of other christians, and past and present monsters don't represent your faith.

[Dorian Gray]

154. This is important

And I am glad that you said it. Not the part about Ratzenberger, as I don't care what people think of him. In this topic, in general, I don't think his quote is out of place, but am wary of his leadership of the Catholic Church.

But, I do think it's important to know that you believe that "You aren't responsible for the actions of other christians, and past and present monsters don't represent your faith."

I know it's elementary, but it's good to know that you do make that distinction.

[beam me up scottie]

175. I always have.

This "argument" has been going on much longer than you think.

And it's about religious intolerance and christians who think they are morally superior to non-christians.

Christians can be just as ethically challenged and morally bankrupt as anyone else.

[Dorian Gray]

196. Of course they can.

We are all human beings, afterall. We are all capable of sin (in my belief) or just plain old selfishness. Being a Christian doesn't negate that. That's why many of us embrace Christianity, actually. If I thought that I were morally superior to everybody else, I wouldn't need God.

Having said that, I truly do find that the tone (on both sides) can be quite arrogant. Your statements to me, particularly "Your opinion matters as little as Kwassa's" comes across as arrogant. I understand where you are coming from and that your viewpoint comes from a place very far from mine. But, I don't think it's fair to diminish anybody's POV in these arguments. And I will accept that I can not truly judge someone as a true Christian, just as I hope that you can not truly know the nature, the depth, or the truth of Hitler's personal religious beliefs. I will agree with you that it is not for me to judge, if you can accept that his actions were monstrous, and the Charity and love that I was taught was the truth behind Christianity is far removed from his "Christian" values.

I think that the problem with some here that you may have is that the idea of Christianity is actually a negative thing in your eyes. I can see why that would be the case in countless numbers of people, but you have to understand that for many, it's been a source of goodness, love, and strength. There will always be a knee-jerk reaction against the blaming of Christianity for all the ills in the world, and there will also be repudiation of Hitler's un-Christianlike actions.

I suspect, and I may be wrong, that you don't believe his actions to be un-Christianlike. And that is a serious divide between those Christians on this website who truly want social justice for, not only all Americans, but for all human-kind. And I may be wrong. I hope that I am wrong. Please tell me that I am wrong!!!! Because... you know what? I'm so tired of this argument. I just anted to voice my opinions, and now I'll shut up!

And I think that Catbert, in a response to one of my posts, actually said it well. I agreed with his summation, so I hope that you know I'm not a Fundy hell bent on conversion and repudiation. THat's not the case at all.

[beam me up scottie]

197. Oh please.

This has nothing to do with what I think of christianity.

I'm sick of listening to apologetics who refuse to admit bad people are christians too.


"Oh Hitler, no, he COULDN'T be a christian because christians are the good guys. He's not angelic enough to be one of us":eyes:



And you're damned right I don't believe his actions were "un-christianlike", because I don't believe that christians are any better than anyone else.


The christians who do claim moral superiority confuse their religion with morality.

How anyone with any knowledge at all about the history of christianity could claim that with a straight face is beyond me.




For the last time, a snip from the No True Scotsman fallacy- just for the people who think I'm the only one who takes issue with it:

individuals of any particular religion, for example, may tend to employ this fallacy. The statement "no true Christian" would do some such thing is often a fallacy, since the term "Christian" is used by a wide and disparate variety of people. This broad nature of the category is such that its use has very little meaning when it comes to defining a narrow property or behaviour.

**********

It comes in many other forms - "No decent person would" - it is argued "support hanging/watch pornography/smoke in public", etc. Often the speaker seems unaware that he/she is, in fact, coercively (re)defining what the phrase "decent person" means to include/exclude what he/she wants and NOT simply following what the phrase is already accepted as meaning.

[kwassa]

199. Your error in using the "No True Scotman" fallacy

quoting from your quote: (capitalization by me)
"individuals of any particular religion, for example, MAY tend to employ this fallacy. The statement "no true Christian" would do some such thing IS OFTEN a fallacy, since the term "Christian" is used by a wide and disparate variety of people."

Please note the auhotr's use of the word "MAY" and "IS OFTEN". These are called QUALIFYING WORDS. The author never made the statement that this is ALWAYS the case. Therefore, he does not necessarily support your point.

Secondly, quoting this gentleman proves nothing to start out with. This is HIS OPINION that such a statement is a fallacy. Who makes him the authority on Christianity? Why, you do. Why should we accept your choice?

"I'm sick of listening to apologetics who refuse to admit bad people are christians too."

Bad things have been done in the name of Christianity, but they have not been christian acts or behavior.

"And you're damned right I don't believe his actions were "un-christianlike", because I don't believe that christians are any better than anyone else."

Ah-ha! Here is YOUR belief system. Your anti-christian cause.

"The christians who do claim moral superiority confuse their religion with morality."

Possibly yes, possibly no. Again, not a true christian act to claim superiority to anyone.

[beam me up scottie]

204. Your error is using the No True Scotsman fallacy to support your beliefs.

You cannot prove your belief that Hitler wasn't a christian, kwassa.

You've tried and tried and failed miserably every time.

Hitler said he was a christian and you lack the authority to declare he wasn't since all you have for evidence is your personal belief.

Your claim to christianity is no different than Hitler's.
You both say you believe in the christian god.
I can no more prove you're lying about your belief than you can say the same about Hitler.



Again:

Hitler was a christian.

He said so, repeatedly, in his bible, notes, speeches and conversations.

He never renounced his faith.

You can't prove that he didn't believe in the christian god.

You have no evidence to back up your belief.



That's all you have, kwassa - a belief that Hitler didn't believe in the christian god.







And since when is stating that christians are no better or worse than anyone else an "anti-christian cause" ?

It's quite the opposite, actually.

Unless you do think that you're better than non-christians, of course.





Only christians who do think they're superior would disagree with that statement.

[kwassa]

206. "Hitler was not at any stage of his life a Christian."

http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm

Hitler and Christianity
by Edward Bartlett-Jones

(excerpts)

His mother was apparently a pious Catholic, according to Hitler's biographers, but Hitler’s own connection with the church during his early youth was not strong. We know he attended a nearby monastery for singing lessons, probably at his father’s behest (Ian Kershaw, Hitler: 1889 – 1936 Hubris, WW Norton, 2000), and that the young Hitler was impressed by the grandiose architecture of great churches. It can reasonably be said that, because of the region in which he was brought up, and the religious faith of at least one of his parents, Hitler was nominally a Catholic. Among his biographers, however, none assert that the boy was even baptized, although it is likely, and there is no evidence of any particularly strong religious element in his upbringing or of feelings of faith like those held by his mother.

(jump)
Hitler’s references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian. Earthly symbols of German valour and Teutonic strength were to be worshipped - not the forgiving, compassionate representative of an “Eastern Mediterranean servant ethic imposed on credulous ancient Germans by force and subterfuge” (the phrase is Burleigh’s own, in Michael Burleigh, The Third Reich: a New History, Pan, 2001). A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.

(jump)

If Hitler was motivated by a supreme being, or convinced that his success was providential, it is hard to see that he was referring to the same God worshipped by Christians. These elements of his orations were dramatic and poetic figures of speech, and the immortality he stood for was of the earthly type, in which heroic legends and monumentalist architecture alone would preserve a great name or event for generations. This analysis stands entirely apart from the actions committed in Hitler’s name which shatter any pretence of Christian leaning. In conclusion, it is reasonable beyond doubt to say that Hitler was not at any stage of his life a Christian.

[beam me up scottie]

209. That's an opinion, and opinion is not evidence, kwassa.

BUt you know that.

Now please provide proof that Hitler renounced his faith.

And remember, opinions are not evidence.

[kwassa]

216. Opinions of professional historians are worth more than others.

[beam me up scottie]

236. Not when it comes to reading the minds of dead people ! Try again.

You know the deal by now, kwassa.

[kwassa]

208. "Adolf Hitler - Christian, Atheist, or Neither?"

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html

My conclusion is that Hitler, although he was brought up and confirmed as a Catholic, had abandoned Christianity by the time he was in control of Germany. Importantly though, he was not an atheist either.

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the
instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe
transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism,
under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)

[beam me up scottie]

210. Opinions are like assholes, kwassa!

:rofl:

Nowhere does Hitler renounce his faith.

Keep dancing!:D

[kwassa]

215. There is no renouncing requirement to become an ex-Christian

[beam me up scottie]

217. THere is if you need to prove he renounced his faith.

Opinions don't trump facts.

[kwassa]

227. But I don't need to prove that

and I've given you tons of facts. Lots and lots of facts.

[beam me up scottie]

237. Yes, you do. No facts=no proof. You need to prove he renounced his faith.

He believed in the christian god, you have to prove he didn't.

Really, kwassa, your posts are ridiculously immature and naive.

You act as though you don't know what words mean.

[catbert836]

235. Those quotes are from "Hitler's Table Talk".

A book compiled by the notoriously anti-Catholic Martin Bohrmann, which has been grossly mistranslated into English, and is often cited by revisionists and Neo-Nazis. There's no evidence that Hitler said any of these.

[bloom]

245. RE: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains"

Sounds like some posts around here. LOL


The quote from Hitler - "Christianity is an invention of sick brains" - doesn't sound like what a Christian would say. While being a no-brainer for some people - I don't know what it would take for others to get it. People who don't want to get it, for instance. People who would make similar statements themselves.

Oh, the irony.

[kwassa]

211. "Was Hitler a Christian?"

http://www.geocities.com/mikem2u/hitler.html

Was Hitler a Christian?

excerpt:

And yet at the same time Hitler was advocating what he called "Positive Christianity." But what exactly did this "Christianity" consist of? Alfred Rosenberg, the man Hitler appointed as the philosophical guiding light in the Nazi party, drew up some plans for the "National Reich Church." Here are some excerpts, from Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich:

The National Church is determined to exterminate irrevocably...the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year of 800.
The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany.

The National Church declares that to it, and therefore to the German nation, it has been decided that the Fuehrer's Mein Kampf is the greatest of all documents. It...not only contains the greatest but it embodies the purest and truest ethics for the present and future life of our nation.

The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of saints.

On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword.

On the day of its foundation, the Christian Cross must be removed from all churches, cathedrals and chapels...and it must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika. (Shirer, pp. 332-333.)

[beam me up scottie]

218. Opinion

[kwassa]

228. You have nothing but opinion yourself, and no historical credentials

[beam me up scottie]

238. I don't need them, you need to prove Hitler wrong, not me.

Silly kwassa!

[beam me up scottie]

223. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

[kwassa]

212. more from "Was Hitler a Christian?"

http://www.geocities.com/mikem2u/hitler.html

But although the Nazi leaders talked about Christianity, did they really believe in even their own brand of Christianity without Christ? Well, here's what Shirer has to say:

It would be misleading to give the impression that the persecution of Protestants and Catholics by the Nazi State tore the German people asunder or even greatly aroused the vast majority of them. It did not...Not many Germans lost much sleep over the arrests of a few thousand pastors and priests or over the quarreling of the various Protestant sects. And even fewer paused to reflect that under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler, who were backed by Hitler, the Nazi regime intended eventually to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the Nazi extremists. As Bormann, one of the men closest to Hitler, said publicly in 1941, "National Socialism and Christianity and irreconcilable."

[beam me up scottie]

219. Opinion.

[kwassa]

229. No rebuttal from you. Can't make one?

[beam me up scottie]

239. I don't need to, you have no proof. Give me something to rebut.

Come on, kwassa, you claim you KNOW that Hitler wasn't a christian, back up your bullshit.

And not with more bullshit, kwassa.

[beam me up scottie]

220. "I am fighting for the work of the Lord"

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

[kwassa]

213. A different author on "Was Hitler a Christian?"

http://kevin.davnet.org/essays/hitler.html

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains," Adolf Hitler, 13 December 1941.
"So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death," Adolf Hitler, 14 October 1941.

http://kevin.davnet.org/essays/hitler.html#experts

Conclusions of Biographers and Historians

excerpts:

Hans Küng
"the great figures of terror in our century—Hitler, Stalin and their deputies—were programmatic anti-Christians"

Alan Bullock
Alan Bullock is a journalist and biographer of Adolf Hitler.

"In Hitler's eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle, and the survival of the fittest. 'Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.'"

Ian Hershaw - Historian

"Apart from the organized sectors of the working class, the Nazis had greatest difficulty, as is well known, in penetrating the Catholic sub-culture, where the dominant image of Hitler provided by Catholic 'opinion leaders' was equally negative. The main attack was levelled at the anti-Christian essence of the Nazi Movement and of its leader's philosophy. Publications sought to demonstrate that Hitler's ideas stood in direct contradiction to the teaching of the Christian catechism. Especially in Bavaria, where Catholicism was dominant and extreme anti-Marxism widespread, he and his Movement were seen as a variant of 'godless Bolshevism'-an association which was frequently to recur after 1933 during the 'Church struggle'. Though Catholic anti-Nazi polemics generally concentrated on attacking the anti-religious, and especially anti-Catholic, thrust of Nazism, some publications did offer a devastating assault on the entire Nazi doctrine."

"Hitler was himself well aware of the need to counter his anti-Christian image if his Party were to break through in Catholic areas. He was keen even in the early 1920s not to antagonize unnecessarily the Catholic Church. And during the rise to power the NSDAP made particular efforts-largely in vain-in Catholic areas such as the Rhineland and Bavaria to emphasize its 'positive Christianity', to deny the slur that it was an anti-religious party,"

[beam me up scottie]

221. Opinion.

[kwassa]

230. Historically researched opinion, worth more than unresearched

[beam me up scottie]

240. Still opinion, not proof.

Next.

[beam me up scottie]

224. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

[kwassa]

233. And you believe a patholigical liar?

[beam me up scottie]

241. Why not? I believe you when you claim to be a christian.

Why shouldn't I believe people who say they're christians?

The only way I would know they were lying would be if they renounced their christianity.

[kwassa]

214. "The Psychology of Hitler"

http://kevin.davnet.org/essays/hitler.html#experts

A Psychological Analysis of Adolph Hitler: His Life and Legend

Walter C. Langer
Office of Strategic Services
Washington, D.C.

excerpts:

As a matter of fact, Hitler has very little admiration for Christ, the Crucified. Although he was brought up a Catholic, and received Communion, during the war, he severed his connection with the Church directly afterwards. This kind of Christ he considers soft and weak and unsuitable as a German Messiah.

The latter must be hard and brutal if he is to save Germany and lead it to its destiny.

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by only a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned me to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love, as a Christian and as a man, I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord rose at last in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was the fight for the world against the Jewish poison." (M.N.O. 26)

And to Rauschning he once referred to "the Jewish Christ-creed with its effeminate, pity-ethics".

[beam me up scottie]

222. Opinion.

[kwassa]

231. One note reply, aren't you? It is informed opinion, not uniformed.

Not all opinions are equal. Historical research constitutes informed opinion.

You seem to know only what you've read on slanted atheists sites.

[beam me up scottie]

242. Opinion is not proof. Why use more notes when you can't even grok one?

Really, kwassa, this isn't that difficult.

Opinion is not proof.

What part of that don't you understand?

[beam me up scottie]

225. "I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

[kwassa]

232. Doesn't make him a Christian

[beam me up scottie]

243. According to whom? Kwassa the Magnificent who just KNOWS he was lying?

:rofl:

Thanks, I always need a laugh at the end of the day.

And you never disappoint. :D

[kwassa]

226. Straight Dope

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

In other words, while he was certainly evil, (Hitler)he also usually knew which wars he could win (at least until 1941) and only fought those. He knew he could beat the Polish, French, and British armies and he allegedly counseled the Japanese against attacking the U.S.; he also requested that they open up a front against Russia. He couldn't beat the church in open warfare--so he took control and then attacked them piecemeal while making statements to put them at ease. Think about it--how many other times did Hitler break his word or ignore a treaty? He said whatever would make things easiest, and then ignored it later.

Author Doug Krueger notes that "so many Germans were religious believers that Hitler, if not religious himself, at least had to pretend to be a believer in order to gain support." He adds, "If the message won converts, it would seem that most Nazis were probably too. After all, would appeal to divine mandate win more theists or atheists to the cause?" He also points out that "Even if Hitler was not a , he could still have been a theist. Or a deist" (www.infidels.org/library /modern/doug_krueger/copin.html). Remember that being a non-Christian is not equal to being an atheist.

(jump)

An interesting side note: Two of my sources, both of whom are well-versed in WWII history, said something to the effect that Hitler acted as if he had a messianic complex and perhaps believed himself to essentially be a god or the messiah. As one put it, you could certainly make the argument that he was a firm believer in God, if by "God" you mean "Adolf Hitler."

[beam me up scottie]

244. Dope is definitely the word, kwassa. HINT: that's an opinion, not proof.

:rofl:

[Dorian Gray]

200. I'm NOT an apologetic who doesn't believe that

Christians can be bad people! I've repeated it about five times in responses to your posts, and I don't know how much clearer that can be. And will you please stop bringing up the NO SCOTSMAN FALLACY with me because I've never ever ever ever ever freaking claimed that Christians can not be selfish, egotistical, murderous, or just plain old fucking assholes!

So, you can stop with the condescending answers back to me, read what I actually wrote, and stop being obstinate. Or continue with your attitude toward me. Really, your behavior is your own decision. I can be quite reasonable, and I honestly do not understand your insistance upon repeating the same argument over and over and over and over again. It's tiring.

So, for one last time, to make it absolutely clear, I am NOT ARGUING that one can not be a Christian and be a bad person. I've never said that, anywhere. If you don't want to acknowledge that or understand that, then go ahead and ignore what I've actually written.

[beam me up scottie]

203. Did I say you were?

I'm trying to explain why I won't accept christian bigotry.

If you still don't understand what my point is, I can't help you.

You jumped in the middle of a thread and assumed you knew my intent.

Since you obviously have no clue what I'm talking about, I would appreciate it if you would stop misrepresenting my posts.

[Dorian Gray]

205. Your response to me was

"This has nothing to do with what I think of christianity.

I'm sick of listening to apologetics who refuse to admit bad people are christians too. (

"Oh Hitler, no, he COULDN'T be a christian because christians are the good guys. He's not angelic enough to be one of us"

And you're damned right I don't believe his actions were "un-christianlike", because I don't believe that christians are any better than anyone else.


The christians who do claim moral superiority confuse their religion with morality.

How anyone with any knowledge at all about the history of christianity could claim that with a straight face is beyond me."




THEN, you went ahead and brought up the No Scotsman Fallacy, once again. I "jumped" in the middle of an argument? I don't think so. I responded to a post that I thought was worded poorly, AND I responded with my beliefs. We've been going back and forth on this for two days, and NOW you are telling me that I jumped in the middle of the argument? That's laughable, Beam Me Up Scotty!

I don't think that it's such a great leap of logic to assume that you were speaking of ME when you responded to MY post with "I'm sick of listening to apologetics who refuse to admit bad people are christians too."

Now, I am going to assume that you know that I don't believe Christians are beyond acting badly and that this whole discussion was an exercise in futility. Because, to be honest, I don't what the hell Hitler believed or didn't believe. He was a murderous asshole who was responsible for some of the worst crimes in the past millenium. And, it doesn't matter if he was a professed Christian or not. What does matter is the horrific crime that the Holocaust was, and trying to understand how people who have lived in our lifetime could be capable of such absolutely reprehensible crimes is a step in the right direction. Other than that, nothing else matters.

[beam me up scottie]

207. My point all along has been that bad people can be christians.

You assumed wrongly when you defined my "problem", and you assumed wrongly that I was referring to you.

I've explained what I meant several times and I'm not doing it again.

Feel free to be as offended as you want to be.

[catbert836]

191. Funny thing about Nietzsche

He has been very misunderstood since his time... I suggest you read some of his works. I would reccomend "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" or "Will to Power".

He has been labelled the Nazi philosopher, a statement which is almost the exact opposite of the truth. He was opposed to anti-Semitism, however works published after his death were edited by his anti-Semetic sister to make them appear to have that leaning toward that viewpoint. Here's a quote regarding Nietzsche and the Nazis:

"Nietzsche hated German nationalism, mass movements, and socialism, so naturally, he was made the mascot of the National Socialist German Worker's Party."

[lvx35]

198. Say what you will about Nietzsche as a man...

...Hitler's doctrine mirrors his words very closely, whether you claim it as an incorrect interpretation or not. And besides, how do you explain something like this as the product of a zealous EDITOR?

From the tree trunk of Jewish vengeance and hatred – the deepest and sublimest hatred in human history, since it gave birth to ideals and a new set of values – grew a branch that was equally unique: a new love, the deepest and sublimest of loves... But let no one surmise that this love represented a denial of the thirst for vengeance, that it contravened the Jewish hatred. Exactly the opposite is true. Love grew out of the hatred as the tree's crown, spreading triumphantly in the purest sunlight... Jesus of Nazareth, the gospel of love made flesh, the "redeemer," who brought blessing and victory to the poor, the sick, the sinners – what was he but temptation in its most sinister and roundabout form, bringing men by a roundabout way to precisely those Jewish values and renovations of this ideal? Has not Israel, precisely by the detour of this "redeemer," this seeming antagonist and destroyer of Israel, reached the final goal of its sublime vindictiveness? Was it not a necessary feature of a truly brilliant politics of vengeance, a far-sighted, subterranean, slowly and carefully planned vengeance, that Israel had to deny its true instrument publicly and nail him to the cross like a mortal enemy, so that "the whole world" (meaning all the enemies of Israel) might naively swallow the bait?... What could equal in debilitating narcotic power the symbol of the "holy cross," the ghastly paradox of a crucified god, the unspeakably cruel mystery of God's self-crucifixion for the benefit of mankind?6

Nietzsche's hip "anti-christian" appeal that makes him hip with atheists then and now is rooted deeply in anti-semitism, and his concept of super men and super races should make some things very clear about who Hilter was obeying.

[catbert836]

234. Scratch that, compiler.

The Will to Power is a posthumously published work compiled by Nietzsche's sister Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche from notes he had written. She had married an anti-Semitic agitator, and her brother had opposed her marriage from the beginning because he did not share her husband's anti-Semitic views. Since his sister arranged the book, the general consensus holds that it does not reflect Nietzsche's intent. Mazzino Montinari, the editor of Nietzsche's Nachlass, called it a forgery. It has been the source of accusations that Nietzsche shared views similar to those of the Nazis.

[Dorian Gray]

202. Nietzche is definitely

interesting to read. Will to Power and Thus Spoke Zarathustra are fascinating reads, and everybody should take a college level philosophy course where these are required readings. His philosophy, much like countless other philosophers and theologians, has influenced countless politicians. And much like other philosophers and theologians, his ideas are often just randomly picked over to and put forth without understanding the whole of his works or the fullness of his philosophy.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Evoman]

147. Anybody who worships christ is a christian..PERIOD!

Anybody who worships Allah and called Mohammed a prophet is a muslim. Anybody who does not believe in god is an atheist, period.

What god you believe in, or have no belief in, determines what religion you belong to. If you believe and worship christ, and then go and murder 500 people, you are a christian murderer.

Phelps, Falwell, and Hitler ARE OR WERE ALL CHRISTIANS. You may dispute whether or not YOU BELIEVE they are good christians or bad christians, but they were still christians.

Who gets to say what a "muslim" is. Is Osama bin Laden a muslim? Are only liberal muslims muslim? Was Stalin an atheist?

Hitler being a christian has NO REFLECTION ON YOU WHATSOEVER. It doesn't make the rest of the christians evil. Why can't you just admit he was a christian? Are you ashamed of your religion? I am not ashamed to say I'm an atheist even if Stalin was an atheist. I am not afraid to say I'm Canadian just because Paul Bernardo was Canadian.

[applegrove]

39. Cause apparently right wing "facism" has gone down a memory hole?

This pope especially was there as the evil was created. Has he forgotten the army of "little patsy men" who forced him into Hitler Youth?

[pnwmom]

44. It is one thing to remember, it is quite another to be there at the site.

Who among us wouldn't be moved?

[applegrove]

61. I would imagine being there would be soul-blowing. But the pope..

he is in sales no? Why he would have to mention God instead of simply evil little patsy people.. bleating their way to mass murder at the behedst of a few sociopaths.

[Lefty48197]

49. After tragedies, people ALWAYS ask why God allowed it to happen.

.

[zonmoy]

51. because if god exists he is the ultimate being

responsible for all the evil in the world since he wont admit to there being an equal god of evil.

[pnwmom]

53. As I said, the Catholic response is that God gave humanity free will, and

humans choose to do evil.

[zonmoy]

56. So are you saying that because of free will

god has no responsability for the actions of the beings he created.

[pnwmom]

57. I'm not saying anything personally. I have no idea. The whole

issue is one of the conundrums of any faith. It's called "the theological problem of evil." If God is good, and God is omnipotent, how does evil exist? It's the paradox at the core of most religions.

But yes, logically, IF God created or (created the circumstances that allowed for the creation of) beings with free will, then they would be responsible for their own acts of evil.

Not all Christians believe in free will, by the way. Some believe in predestination. But I'm not at all familiar with that theology.

[NMMNG]

60. To try to assuage the guilt of the humans who participated in it

After all, if big omnipotent God didn't think it necessary to intervene, you certainly can't hold measly, fallible humans responsible, can you? :shrug:

[TreasonousBastard]

63. I don't see the Pope, or anyone else,...

blaming God for the Holocaust, Nazis, or any other bad things that happen.

A good study of Job is necessary for anyone who actually cares about God's will and some very nasty things that can happen here in his creation. And some very nasty things that God does cause, like some genocide here and there he allegedly ordered the ancient Israelites to commit.

Whether or not God controls things on the planet, or even exists, is not the point. The point is how we react to evil in all its forms. For those of us who look at it from a religious perspective, we don't try to understand the will of God, but we accept that will, and deal with things here on earth as we must.

The Pope's words were those of a very traditional Christian who prays for understanding of just how such evil can exist, and how WE can fight it. We don't look to God to micromanage the planet and deal with human failures, but we do look to God for additional strength to deal with those failures ourselves.

Getting back to Job, one of the key points of the story is Job's bitching and moaning and eventually screaming at God for the misery he went through. Unlike his "friends" who made excuses, Job fought God.

And Job won. Even though he had to play by God's rules.

And the Pope knows all about how that works.

[moobu2]

134. Blaming the Holocaust on 'Gods plan' serves several purposes

It takes away blame for what the Nazi’s did from Christian culture in general. And if God allowed the Holocaust to happen, it must have been part of 'Gods plan' -else why would God have allowed it? The idea somewhat justifies what the Nazi’s did. It takes responsibility away from his religion for not doing anything to stop it. Blaming it on “Evil” or “Gods plan” or various other non-existent 3rd parties, instead of taking responsibility, opening up the vast Vatican archives to researchers and survivors and bringing closure.

It’s just a complete self serving statement basically to cover for Christianity and the Vatican etc...

[Evoman]

192. Maybe the Pope didn't get what he was expecting.

Maybe he thought that when he got to sit on the Pope throne, that all of a sudden god would start talking to him like he did all those other popes. Wasn't that red phone supposed to be a direct line to god! Why isn't he talking to me! Why is he so silent? Why didn't he talk to me when I was a hitler youth!

Sorry Popey. Gods not going talk to you. Because god doesnt exist.

[ozone_man]

194. Better to blame God than for the RCC to accept blame.

The RCC shares the blame by helping to create the conditions necesary for the Holocaust. 1,000 years of religious antisemitism including the Church declaring Jews to be a separate race during the Inquisition. God had no part in the Holocaust, because he doesn't exist. But the church does.

[moobu2]

246. That's exactly right.

That, along with the Nazi’s social agenda i.e. anti-abortion, anti-contraceptive, anti-homosexual, extreme pro-family/breeding policies etc..

[hedgehog]

247. I would suggest that at least part of that agenda comes from

another source. The extreme pro-family breeding policies have more to do with preserving the status quo than anything else. We're hearing the same meme today in the concerns expressed that "Europeans" aren't having enough children and are being overrun by Moslems. (please - this is their opinion, not mine). I think this idea is a cultural contamination of Church teachings rather than an integral part of them.

[moobu2]

248. That Nazi agenda was a Christian agenda.

It was a manifestation of Christianity and that's why the Catholic Church was enamored with the Nazi's.

Your example of 'Muslims over breading and Christian Europe is in danger of being over run by them', therefore, 'Christians should have more babies' also comes DIRECTLY FROM Christianity and is an idea that most likely appeals to the Catholic church (unless you know that they issued statements condemning the idea?) because of the perceived threat to the church and Christendom in general, and is the same type of sentiments that led to umpteen million people being killed in the 2nd world war and the Church doing nothing to prevent it.

The Holocaust couldn’t have happened without Christianity, and that means the Christian culture and it‘s leaders ......the Pope being the main one..

That's why this Pope wants to shift attention away from itself now with these self serving statements.