I'm so tired...

[Mythsaje]

I'm tired of religion. There, I said it. I'm tired of those who claim to have inside information as to the nature of the universe to which the rest of us aren't privvy...or don't believe. I'm tired of those who pretend that they're somehow better because they think some higher power has revealed to them (or us) the truth behind the illusion.

Fuck that.

We can't expect some higher power to come down and fix all the things we've broken. The reason our world and lives are fucked up is because WE humans fucked them up. And we were given (by nature or some mysterious creator) the brains, talent, and manipulative tools to fix a lot of them. If we can set aside our greed and lust for power long enough to bother. Disease? We can take care of that. Hunger? Ditto.

If we stop arguing about whose God is better and what country supposedly deserves his favor the most.

We have the tools, the intelligence, and the talent. We just don't have the drive.

We hand our power over to a bunch of fools who think there's some transcendent spirit that's going to come down and wave his hand and fix everything and then wonder why the world continues to be fucked up.

Stupid.

I know I'm supposed to give lip service to other peoples' beliefs and, for the most part, I do. I DO respect those who understand that this is our world and we're responsible for the welfare of our fellow humans. Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, and god knows how many other "prophets" have said so. And some of their followers listen and understand. Good for them. The ones who don't are the ones that raise my ire.

God's not going to fix everything. As long as we allow these dickheads to act as though that's what they expect, they're going to stumble around like a drunk troll in a glassmaker's shop, busting things and expecting someone off-stage to fix it all.

But you can't blame infant cancer on God. You can't expect him to wave his hand and fix it. All these exist because they're OUR problems. Even if some deity exists, all of our troubles are just that...OUR troubles. We were given the tools we have to fix them ourselves.

Science shouldn't be used to find better and more efficient ways to kill one another. That's NOT what it's for. We're not given the tools and talent to allow some folks to make obscene profits and live in houses so large that they have to hire dozens of servants just to clean them.

People can only LIVE in one house, and drive one automobile at a time. Why should some folks have ten cars and five houses, while some people sleep in cardboard boxes in alleys and under bridges? Because "God" likes it that way?

Nonsense. It's because we are entirely missing the point.

We can fix all of this, as long as we understand that it's OUR job. Taking care of one another...not trying to acquire as much shit as we can before we die.

Our troubles are human troubles, caused by human mistakes, and fixable by human ingenuity. I truly believe that.

And before you ask...I'm not an atheist, or even truly agnostic. I'm a pantheist/humanist. Or humanist/pantheist. I think the universe is a wonderous place, and possibly the only thing that deserves to be recognized as God. But, if this is indeed the case, each and every one of us, and every creature that walks, crawls, or swims, and even the trees through which the wind is blowing right now, and the wind itself, are ALL part of God and are therefore sacred.

"That which you do to the least of these" and all that.

"God" is too big a concept for anyone to have a handle on. Bible or no. Koran or no.

Science is what we call the act of trying to understand God. It's slow, and sometimes confusing. But it seeks to understand. It questions. It reveals. It learns. It grows.

Carl Sagan, in his book Contact, suggested a little something I found very intriguing. Maybe WE (intelligent beings) exist in order to someday explain God to itself.

For, as far as we know, and as far as we can prove, WE are the minds and hands of God. Not just us, but anything out there in the great unknown that can also think and build.

If this is the case, we've been mighty irresponsible deities, haven't we?

[The Doctor.]

1. "I like your Christ,

I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
-Ghandi

Don't worry... so long as humans survive; we'll achieve that divinity.

[waiting for hope]

2. I have always had the thought

that Heaven is here and now on earth and it's up to us to make it nirvana. The Fundies just waiting for the second coming really have issues - why do they want to die so badly? Are they too chicken shit to make the best of their time here? Kudos on your post - O8)

[neoblues]

3. Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, My God can Beat Up your God...

Oh, and if we are the minds of God, he/we/it has some real problems (multiple personality disorder to say the least).

[Mythsaje]

5. Ever read the Bible?

I'd say the Old Testament paints a picture of a being for whom MPD would be a mild disorder.

[neoblues]

10. Yep... and it reminds me of...

our presidential pretender, the self-proclaimed warrior of christ (bringing death/destruction, narcissism, vindictiveness, self-defined ethics, abuse of power...).

[MadMaddie]

4. I have had this conversation with my father who is a Dem but

he grew up in a baptist Church in South Carolina.

His brother died (mysteriously I must add) and my dad and his family said it was "Gods will", and my reply was....I think that God gave us the brains and science and technology to investigate and understand what happened. His response was "I never thought about it that way"!!

<snip>
We can fix all of this, as long as we understand that it's OUR job
<snip>

You are right, it is our job to fix the problems that we created.

[Vetinarii]

6. I quite agree

We created God in our own image. Which is why He's such a bastard.

But I think there's a fundamental problem in your argument here:

What does God have to do with the economic unfairness that you describe in your post? Societies of all religions - Christian, Pagan, Muslim, Confucian - and those that have eschewed religion altogether (e.g. Soviet Russia, Maoist China) have been every bit as unfair. The greatest anti-Christian philosopher, Nietzsche, had absolutely no time for "fairness" as a valid goal of human existence. Indeed, I suspect he would have thought that your wish for justice was evidence that your thinking is badly contaminated by degenerate Christian values.

So I don't think you can lay that particular charge at the door of God, Christianity, or even of religion in its broadest sense. I think there's something about human economic behavior that, unless checked, will always tend towards this condition, and religion has nothing to do with it one way or the other.

And when you use words like "should", and "missing the point" - you're endangering your own position. Because if there's a "point" to human existence, if there's something that we "should" do, that implies some external purpose, that somehow overrides the individual goals we set ourselves. And where could that purpose come from, whose could it be, if not God's?

Philip Pullman, in His Dark Materials, coins a phrase that I find very evocative: "The republic of Heaven". It's our job, if we choose to accept it, to build this republic here on earth, because this is the only chance we'll get.

It's always struck me as ironic that people who describe themselves proudly as "Republicans" will cheerfully lobby, campaign and enforce the will of the King of Kings, the greatest tyrant of them all.

[Mythsaje]

7. I'm laying at OUR feet...

at our blindness, ignorance, and greed. I don't think any higher power has anything to do with it, and religion, as such, provides little more than a distraction from the path we should be on.

I'm not arguing against the existence of a higher being--I'm arguing that WE are higher beings of a sort, and have the power to change everything. And we should not because it's imposed from without, but because having the ability confers the responsibility.

[Vetinarii]

8. Yes, we are higher beings

... but we're blind, ignorant, greedy higher beings. We have the power, in varying degrees, to change all sorts of things - but what should we actually attempt?

That's something that each person needs to decide for themselves. Because there is no-one to tell us what is "right" or "wrong". We have to work it out for ourselves. And it's not surprising that different people, faced with this challenge, come up with different answers.

There's a fundamental conflict, for instance, between fairness - treating people equally, regardless of who they are - and loyalty - treating them differently depending on who they are. Me, I tend strongly towards the fairness end of this axis. But my sister-in-law is the opposite - she feels no obligation to anyone but her friends and family. If she can do something to help us at the expense of some anonymous stranger, she won't hesitate.

This means that we tend to disagree a lot about what is the "right" thing to do. I don't think it makes either of us a bad person - but we come to radically different conclusions. For instance, she believes in minimizing her tax burden - I believe in paying as much as I can comfortably afford, which is slightly more than I get asked for. She thinks it's Right for a parent to defend their kid from bullying by confronting the bully - I think this will (at best) deflect the bullying onto some other, less-well-defended kid, which is Wrong.

And I routinely argue with her about these things. Sometimes I change her mind, or vice versa. But I don't think either of us is "right", in the sense that we could claim some moral superiority over the other. Because if there is no God to arbitrate, then difference of opinion is inevitable.

[Mythsaje]

9. My wife is a bit like that...

She's protects her "pack" first. And, frankly, I can understand that to a certain extent myself. If given a choice between saving a stranger and my wife, or my kids, there'd be no contest.

But that's not the choice that's in front of us. It's not about OUR pack as opposed to outsiders--it's about making the choices that improve everyone's chances for the future.

[The Witch]

11. There's a great joke...

This reminds me of a certain joke about a deeply religious man who was trapped in a flood. The water level was rising and he could not swim. So he prayed to God, devoting himself to the idea that God would deliver him.

Some folks came by in a rowboat and offer to give him a lift, but the man refuses. "I am sure my God will save me," he says, and continues praying.

After a while, a police boat comes by. "C'mon!" the police shout. "We'll take you to higher ground!"

"No," says the man. "I am placing my faith in God and I know He will deliver me."

The water continues to rise, and just as it is about to overwhelm him, he catches sight of a ladder dangling from a helicopter hovering right above him. The pilot calls to him, but the man will not go. He is waiting for his divine intervention.

Sadly, the water rises above his head, and the poor man drowns.

-

When he arrives in heaven, the man finally faces God. "I prayed and prayed," he said. "I had faith that you would save me, but you never did!"

"What the hell are you talking about?" God snaps. "I sent two boats and a helicopter!"

[4_TN_TITANS]

12. Good thread....

former Church of Christ preacher converted to an atheist, here :hi:

It's important to realize that religion does serve a purpose, for those who can't compute all the un-answerables in the universe (aka God's will). As much as it irritates the hellouta me, there will always be minds that can't comprehend anything beyond the county line. For them, it really is a savior. We just have to make sure that we protect the right to not buy into their bs.

[Dogmudgeon]

13. "Maybe WE exist in order to someday explain God to it."

That's pretty close to the theology of Wolfhart Pannenberg, except that Pannenberg would say that we create God.

Yes, I'm over-simplifying that.

Pannenberg is usually thought of as a conservative, too.

--p!

[godhatesrepublicans]

14. To be fair, you could just as easily say "I'm sick of politics" or...

sick of philosophy, economics ethics or any other system based on anything other than purely objective and verifiable data.

All life in a community begins with picking an ethos, and then defending it. Sorry.