For Those of You Who Consider Yourselves Spiritual and/or Religious...

[WritingIsMyReligion]

Question: Are you a proponent of organized religion?

By organized religion, I mean Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc., even Hinduism, Buddhism, and most forms of Paganism--belief systems with specific creeds, religious texts, clergy members, worship rituals, etc. On the other hand, NON-organized religions would be pantheism, panentheism, deism, etc.--they're more just belief systems than religions.

I myself am a fierce opponent of organized religion--I believe that, by definition, an organized religion has some limiting/controlling effect on the human soul, which is despicable to me. Yes, I am someone who believes that OR does more harm than good. That said, I don't believe that it needs to be "exterminated"--only reformed.

I consider myself an exceptionally philosophical/spiritual person with pantheistic tendencies--I don't believe in any force beyond the force of this universe, which to me is more than enough, and I do believe that this natural force ties all together as one. I hate the phrase "only human"--I believe that humans have the same power as any other thing on this planet.

What do the rest of you think about OR? Mind you, this is not to be used as a thread in which you personally attack another viewpoint, if you don't mind--state your case and move on, please.

[SteppingRazor]

1. I thought Writing was your religion...

Hee hee! :evilgrin:

Kidding aside, I voted for "don't care." I personally am not affiliated with any organized religion, though I was raised Catholic and my girlfriend is Jewish.

If people want to believe in a specific religious ethos and attend a place of worship, that's their call. If people don't want to, equally their bag. If organized religion disappears from the face of the Earth, I wouldn't miss it a whole lot.

The only thing that would bother me is if the theocrats took over. Then I'd start to care real quick.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

3. Ah, but writing is more a belief system than a religion, actually....

I should have dubbed myself "WritingIsMyBeliefSystem"--WIMBS.

:P :P :evilgrin:

Yes, a theocracy would really rile me, too. :grr::grr:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

40. Maybe it's time for you to get ahead of the curve. EOM

[Freedom_from_Chains]

41. There is nothing society does better than to stamp out individualism

An the Institution of the Church is the machinery for getting it done.

[Fridays Child]

2. Organized religion is, imho...

...the root of most evil in the world. I suppose there are exceptions (Unitarianism comes to mind and there are probably others) but so much blood has been shed for pure, unbridled avarice, masquerading as religious ideology.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

4. I do share much of that sentiment.

Religion is very easily used as a tool, it seems.

:hi:

[Critters2]

29. I've known some remarkably intolerant UUs in my day

Tell a UU you're a Christian and watch what happens. But wear protective gear.

There's nothing like an intolerant progressive. I still remember the time a well-meaning UU told me "You seem to intelligent to be a Christian". This asshole then expected me to thank him.

Asshole. But a good, progressive, UU asshole.

[chefgirl]

5. Don't care one way or the other

Although, I felt I had to write a bit more of a reply.

I call myself a Christian, because I try to follow the message of the man we know as Jesus Christ. I believe that His message is one that I can live by, regardless of whether or not He was actually 'the Son of God'. ( I happen to think He was, in the same way everyone is a child of God, but thats a different subject)

That said, however, I do not follow the message of Christ in the way any organized religion, that I know of, would require of me. My point here is that "Christianity" is not necessarily an organized religion.

Roman Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Baptist, etc... are all what I would call 'organized', while the beauty of Christianity, (which was actually the root of His message) is that it can and SHOULD be a personal journey.

Just my $.02

-chef-

[WritingIsMyReligion]

6. Very true.

I probably generalized some there, with the examples of OR, but as far as most people are concerned, Christianity et. al. are "organized."

:D

:hi:

[Double T]

7. Religions should be tolerated BUT have no place in government........

Support Separation of Church and State.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

8. Exactly.

I don't need to live in a Christian Iran, thanks very much.

:hi:

[redqueen]

9. I voted "Other". Option 4 works best for me, only

I would say "reformed" instead of tolerated.

What's that quote about religion and bad deeds? One never does evil so joyfully as when it's done in the name of religion, or something along those lines?

[WritingIsMyReligion]

10. Yes indeedy...I can't remember who said it, though.

And I might just change that to reformed....

:D

:hi:

[Coyote_Bandit]

11. Other

Personally, there is much of organized religion that I am doing good to just tolerate.

That said, I recognize that most folks are not spiritually inclined or self-disciplined regarding spiritial matters and need spiritual training and leadership. Much of the problem as I see it is that (1) these folks are not discerning in choosing leaders and (2) many "spiritual" leaders are far more interested in perpetuating their own agendas than in fostering the spiritual welfare of those they lead.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

13. Ah, yes, the good ole spiritual leaders...

One of the only honest priests I've ever met is my grandfather, and he's UCC, so he's far, far left in the Christian spectrum of things.

That's one of the reasons why I distrust OR, actually. I just can't trust others with my spiritual well-being to the extent that I am willing to listen to another human like that, especially when I believe that I can find answers for myself.

[Critters2]

30. The UCC doesn't have priests

just pastors. I know. I am one. I don't belong to an orgainzed religion...I'm UCC

[WritingIsMyReligion]

34. Whatever he calls himself,

he's pretty damn liberal.

:D

[LaurenG]

12. I went with 4 as well

Too many really bad, bad things happen in the name of "organized" religion. I don't mind what anyone believes as long as they don't try to drag anyone else into it. They all think they are the only way and I think it's some of the higher teachings in each.:thumbsup: :hi:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

14. Yes: The bad far outweighs the good in OR, in general.

Good to see you here! :D :D :P

:hi:

[Call Me Wesley]

15. Good questions.

But honestly, I had a hard time to vote and then went with poll number 2. Obviously, I am a member of a widespread religion, Buddhism, which is somewhat organized and not just a free based belief system where everyone can just pick a detail and claim hersel/himself being a Buddhist - although it does work this way and it's no problem. You can even chose Buddhism as your second religion without giving up your original beliefs. I just don't think you should chose another religion because it's trendy or just fashionable these days.

I do like the history of a religion, it's growth through the years, it's adopting abilities of wisdom (if there is such a thing), which I think can't be done without a certain amount of organization. Organization however that set people free and doesn't try to control a human's soul. But open a door to new insights, and whatever you do with it, that is your choice. Buddhism did this for me, and I am a so-called 'self-developer.' There's no Guru, there's no Lama above me but the essentials of the Buddhistic way, which is intellectually wide open.

Unfortunately, taking a closer look, I won't be able to say this about most of the OR the way they're handled today. If only one religious book teaching compassion is used to hit another person in the face with for not following your interpretations of the words written in it, you stain the essentials; you narrowmind yourself.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

17. ...And good answer.

:thumbsup:

:D

[Call Me Wesley]

19. Nah,

way too short. ;)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

20. Fuck it, I ain't looking for an essay on the subject!

:D :D

Oops. This isn't the Lounge. Should I be watching my language? :shrug:

[Call Me Wesley]

22. Swear words don't get my attention, generally ...

;)

No essay, no worries. I leave this to others. I didn't mean too short on words, though, but too short to really answer your question, since I do oppose organized religion of any kind that leaves no room for the individuals to develop their beliefs. Otherwise, it's just following a street sign: 'Turn right,' and you get to the exit you wanted to. But what would have happened if you went straight on there?

Where would you have been? ;)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

23. I dunno....

You always get me thinking, CMW. Thanks....

:pals:

[Call Me Wesley]

25. That's a wonderful compliment.

But, to be honest, you started it. So ...

Thank you. :pals: From one writer to another.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

26. Woot!

:pals:

:D

[Goldensilence]

37. i was going to answer this poll

but i think you did a good job of summarizing my stance as well.....I've been studying buddhism for about 3 years now.

[stellanoir]

16. Not voting but

it's whatever floats your boat and does more to help than hurt others and is ever mindful of avoiding the seven deadlies is cool in my smallish book.

But the Buddhists, the UU's and the pastafarians seem to have the most fun of all.

I believe in a Creatrix of love and laughter and that at the center of the universe the primary chemical componant is NO2 (aka laughing gas.) Silly me.

I feel our creatrix is annoyed when we fight over our opinions about him/her and that most conventional religions prey on an irrational fear of death which is the antithesis of love.

So go figure.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

18. I am generally a "whatever works" person....

Though personally I could never accept any type of dogma.

:hi:

[TreasonousBastard]

21. Yeah, well, here we go again...

whether or not religion is evil incarnate.

Organized religion is no different than organized schools, banks, police departments... It's a human endeavor that usually can't be done very well by individuals. Even primitive tribes have shamans who guide the tribe in its beliefs.

It's easy to think anyone can have a personal spiritual life, relationship with God, or whatever without any help, but it just ain't so for most of us. Kinda like teaching yourself the piano without ever heard music before. Everything we do we do is built on what others have done before us.

Organized religions have become corrupt, but not all of them, and that doesn't mean they are intrinsically bad any more than a corrupt business means all businesses are bad. "Religion" is a gateway to God and although often the door has been closed many still claim the wisdom and sprituality of perhaps thousands of years of experience, worship, and study.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

24. It's very true, what you say.

I happen to be one of those people who tries to lead myself as much as possible, though I certainly have friends and whatnot to talk to.

If people want to make this into secularism vs. religion, then they've missed the point, I think...

:shrug:

:D :D

:hi:

[TreasonousBastard]

28. Badly worded, I admit...

and, yes, the question is about organized religion, not about spirituality itself.

I would still suggest that you might soften a bit toward the idea. I know many people, including clergy, who have had problems with their own groups and ran into spriritual crises, and some have left the idea of joining any religion behind. Others I know have thought of sticking a toe in the water but got scared off by thundering preachers.

But, to take one example, many of the earliest Christians considered themselves communities and weren't as involved with doctrine and nonsense as much as they were in support of each other. There are congregations in all religions today that feel pretty much the same and the point isn't so much to pound dogma into our heads as to gather in a common spirituality and cause. I became a Quaker for that reason, but there are other choices. One doesn't have to "join" to share the experience if the community is a truly spiritual one. And it doesn't have to be a Christian community.

Not too easy to find them, though.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

32. I'm pretty soft, considering.

I can't trust OR--I just can't. But neither can I call for its annihilation. That's not the way to go, either. If OR leaves me alone, I won't have to fight back against it.

[hunter]

27. Organized religion can be very bad, nationalism is worse.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do believe the United States is currently the most dangerous nation on the planet.

Blind patriotism is EVIL.

If I could grab the Pope by the ankles, swing him around and knock everyone in the Bush administration out of office, including Bush's nasty nasty Supreme Court appointees, then I would.

The Pope would be a little bruised and bloodied after that, but he'd have made the world a much better place, maybe even earned himself a seat closer to God than John Paul II.

Okay, that's never gonna happen, so it's likely God will Bless America by smiting us. We will end up as the Jonah of all nations, pissed off and alone in the desert praying for death under a withered gourd...

Heh, every so often I have a mad Catholic Ezekiel moment. Thanks all for sparking it. :evilgrin:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

33. Mad Ezekiel moments are most fascinating.

;)

[catbert836]

31. Should be tolerated.

I too think it's generally had a negative impact, but it's just not practical to destroy it, even if it deserves to be destroyed.

[elshiva]

35. I support organized religion as long as it is not anti-intellectual.

Just another Crazy Episcopalian here.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

38. Them Episcopalians...

:P :P

:hi:

[pberq]

36. Ocidental vs. Oriental world view

It is not the religions that are the problem. It is the distortion of religion by the materliaistic occidental culture we live in. Both the West and the East are unbalanced. The East, rich in spirituality, is poor in material development. The West, rich in material develpment is poor in spirituality.

What is needed is an exchange between East and West of the best each has to offer.

Here is an excerpt from a lecture delivered by Swami Vivekananda in New York and England in 1896:

http://www.hinduism.fsnet.co.uk/namoma/life/index.htm

<snip>
"Whenever virtue subsides and vice prevails, I come down to help mankind," declares Krishna, in the Bhagavad-Gita. Whenever this world of ours, on account of growth, on account of added circumstances, requires a new adjustment, a wave of power comes; and as a man is acting on two planes, the spiritual and the material, waves of adjustment come on both planes. On the one side, of the adjustment on the material plane, Europe has mainly been the basis during modern times; and of the adjustments on the other, the spiritual plane, Asia has been the basis throughout the history of the world. Today, man requires one more adjustment on the spiritual plane; today when material ideas are at the height of their glory and power, today when man is likely to forget his divine nature, through his growing dependence on matter, and is likely to be reduced to a mere money-making machine, an adjustment is necessary; the voice has spoken, and the power is coming to drive away the clouds of gathering materialism. The power has been set in motion which, at no distant date, will bring unto mankind once more the memory of its real nature; and again the place from which this power will start will be Asia.

"This world of ours is on the plan of the division of labor. It is vain to say that one man shall possess everything. Yet how childish we are! The baby in its ignorance thinks that its doll is the only possession that is to be coveted in this whole universe. So a nation which is great in the possession of material power thinks that that is all that is to be coveted, that that is all that is meant by progress, that that is all that is meant by civilization, and if there are other nations which do not care for possession, and do not possess that power, they are not fit to live, their whole existence is useless! On the other hand, another nation may think that mere material civilization is utterly useless. From the Orient came the voice which once told the world that if a man possesses everything that is under the sun and does not possess spirituality, what avails it? This is the oriental type; the other is the occidental type.

Each of these types has its grandeur, each has its glory. The present adjustment will be the harmonizing, the mingling of these two ideals. To the Oriental, the world of spirit is as real as to the Occidental is the world of senses. In the spiritual, the Oriental finds everything he wants or hopes for; in it he finds all that makes life real to him. To the Occidental he is a dreamer; to the Oriental the Occidental is a dreamer playing with ephemeral toys, and he laughs to think that grown-up men and women should make so much of a handful of matter which they will have to leave sooner or later. Each calls the other a dreamer. But the oriental idea is as necessary for the progress of the human race as is the occidental, and I think it is more necessary. Machines never made mankind happy and never will make. He who is trying to make us believe this will claim that happiness is in the machine; but it is always in the mind. That man alone who is the lord of his mind can become happy, and none else. And what, after all, is this power of machinery? Why should a man who can send a current of electricity through a wire be called a very great man and a very intelligent man? Does not nature do a million times more than that every moment? Why not then fall down and worship nature? What avails it if you have power over the whole of the world, if you have mastered every atom in the universe? That will not make you happy unless you have the power of happiness in yourself, until you have conquered yourself. Man is born to conquer nature, it is true, but the Occidental means by "nature" only physical or external nature. It is true that external nature is majestic, with its mountains, and oceans, and rivers, and with its infinite powers and varieties. Yet there is a more majestic internal nature of man, higher than the sun, moon, and stars, higher than this earth of ours, higher than the physical universe, transcending these little lives of ours; and it affords another field of study. There the Orientals excel, just as the Occidentals excel in the other. Therefore it is fitting that, whenever there is a spiritual adjustment, it should come from the Orient. It is also fitting that when the Oriental wants to learn about machine-making, he should sit at the feet of the Occidental and learn from him. When the Occident wants to learn about the spirit, about God, about the soul, about the meaning and the mystery of the universe, he must sit at the feet of the Orient to learn.

[Chovexani]

39. Paganism is an organized religion?

Do you even know any Pagans? :rofl:

Seriously, I take strong exception to your definition of "organized religion". By that definition, EVERY religion is an organized religion, when they clearly aren't. I can only speak for Paganism (which is really just a huge, nebulous umbrella for many, many different traditions and practices).

Generally speaking, there is no dogma in Paganism, no pope or creeds to swear allegiance to. In Wicca, even the Rede is more like a guideline. </Jack Sparrow>

Yes, just about every group casts a circle for ritual in some form or fashion, invokes the gods, raises energy...but people do these things because they work, not because they "have" to. Does that mean there are no dogmatic Pagan groups? No, not at all. But the practices that are common in our community are common because people over the millenia have found them effective in their own spiritual growth. If they didn't work, people wouldn't use them. Our "clergy" aren't super special people that have a direct line to the Gods where "laity" doesn't; there is no division between clergy/laity because everyone is his/her own priest. Yes, there are High Priest/esses, but these are people who have simply studied longer than others and serve as mentors, guides and teachers. The various forms of Paganism are at the heart mystery religions, the very antithesis of organized religion. No one can Initiate you, no one can explain to you what a Mystery is. These things come from within. Ritual and study exist to help us achieve them, they aren't meant as a substitute.

Don't confuse the trappings with the soul.