Can you help me? I am struggling with life long beliefs.

[hang a left]

I was not raised in church but had exposure through my grandma. I went to church by myself as an adolescent for a little while. I would get up on Sunday mornings and get myself dressed and walk to church. I think it might have been more for the attention I received from the youth pastor and group. I did not get a lot of that at home. Anyway, I have always believed that the bible was some divinely inspired book, and never really doubted that. Not until my mid twenties when events transpired in my life where it became necessary for me find a higher power to whom I could rely. On my own, I rejected all that tribulation, rapture stuff and grasped at the theory that God is all loving and would never punish me or anyone else.

However, since coming to DU I have found that most things I thought were true were in fact a pack of lies. Now I have a need to know; Is the bible just a complete work of fiction? Any direction you could point me to would be appreciated.

[Vox_Reason]

1. Can you be more specific?

What have you found to be a pack of lies?

One thing's for sure--the 2nd half of the book is all about some big liberal named Jesus! Too bad it's so often used by small people for selfish and un-Christian reasons.


On defense: Jesus said "Love your enemies." and "Blessed are the peacemakers." If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:44; 5:9; 5:39.)

On social programs: "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." (Matthew 19:21.)

On rugged individualism and the pursuit of self-interest: "Love your neighbor as yourself." "So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you."(Matthew 22:39; 7:12.)

On financial success: "Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." "You cannot serve both God and Money." (Matthew 19:23; 6:24.)

On the philosophy that "greed is good": "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." (Luke 12.15.)

On paying taxes: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's" (Matthew 22:22.)

On crime and punishment: "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (John 8:7; Matthew 7:1,2.)

On climbing the social ladder: "The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they say, 'Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'" (Matthew 11:19.)

On money-hungry televangelists: "In the temple courts found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and other sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. (John 2:14,15.)

On the free lunch: "Taking the five loaves and two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves ... The number of those who ate was about five thousand men ..." (Matthew 14.19,21.)

On the perks and privileges of power:" After that he poureth water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe with the towel wherewith he was girded." (John 13:5)

On moral absolutes: "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a'pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?" "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:11; Mark 2:27.)

On family: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he cannot be my disciple." Also : ",Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' Pointing to his disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers.,, (Luke 14:26; Matthew 12:48,49.)

On race relations: In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus praised the morality of a hated foreigner over his own countrymen. (Luke 10:30-37.)

On the superiority of one's native country: "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions : 'Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.'" (Matthew 10:5,6.)

On letting others pull themselves up by their own bootstraps: "When you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." (Luke 14:13,14.)

Modern Christian conservatives may be horrified, but there is no getting around the fact:

Jesus was not just a liberal, but a radical liberal !

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. You sure put a lot of work into this response

thank you.

My Jesus was a crazy man...so radical they nailed him to a tree.

[struggle4progress]

30. Jesus Christ was a man who traveled through the land

A hard-working man and brave
He said to the rich, "Give your money to the poor,"
But they laid Jesus Christ in His grave ...

He went to the preacher, He went to the sheriff
He told them all the same
"Sell all of your jewelry and give it to the poor,"
And they laid Jesus Christ in His grave

When Jesus come to town, all the working folks around
Believed what he did say
But the bankers and the preachers, they nailed Him on the cross,
And they laid Jesus Christ in his grave

And the people held their breath when they heard about his death
Everybody wondered why
It was the big landlord and the soldiers that they hired
To nail Jesus Christ in the sky

This song was written in New York City
Of rich man, preacher, and slave
If Jesus was to preach what He preached in Galilee,
They would lay poor Jesus in His grave

http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Jesus_Christ.htm

[hang a left]

12. Many things I believed to be true regarding American history

world history and other events. I was a victim of television and cable news. I thought I was a "Reagan Republican". I missed a lot of high school and never went to college, so I regard myself as being uneducated, ignorant, and naive. I have quite a bit of street smarts, and I have completed many courses at the School of Hard Knocks. Much of what I believe about life and people has been a result of very personal experiences.

I have been around DU since consistently since the beginning of 2002. This is where I have gained knowledge.

I have read lots of bits and pieces about the origins of the bible and who wrote it, who put it together, and some of the motives. I just have a need to know more about these subjects of how the book came to be.

[niyad]

22. you are not uneducated, nor are you ignorant, and certainly not

naive. two good books on american history, "the people's history of the united states" by howard zinn is a MUST READ, as is "lies my teacher told me: everything your american history textbook got wrong" by james loewen.

[JDPriestly]

29. Read Sins of the Scripture by Episcopal Bishop Spong

and go from there. The Sins of the Scripture book is quite readable I think. It explains how the Bible came into being, and debunks the misinterpretations of it. The author explains why he is a Christian in very compelling terms.

Another book that affirms liberal faith is Jimmy Carter's: Our Endangered Values

Don't misunderstand DUers' disgust with fundamentalists with categorical rejection of the beliefs and values of the Judeo-Christian (and Greek, which was a part of Christianity from the beginning due to Paul and other early Christians) cultures. Liberal thought today is based on the values of those traditions. What fundamentalists reject as "secular humanism" grows out of those values and does not reject them. It just rejects the superstitions that have developed around them.

Actually, Pat Robertson, et al. reject the true Judeo-Christian values more than to the so-called "secular humanists." Robertson, et al. are such materialists. Jesus threw the money-changers out of the Temple, and if he were here today, he would throw the Robertsons, et al. out of the religious community because they are today's moneychangers. Jesus was not in it for profit or for the easy life.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

50. Me, too

I enjoy anything about archeology and would like to read a few books on the subject, on both sides of the issue. I assume there are two sides, as I believe most authors have a thesis they want to push.

[funflower]

61. Terrific post, Vox!

If the Religious Reich would just READ their own gospels...! :banghead:

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Movie on the topic:

http://www.thegodmovie.com/

[catmother]

8. yes. a must see. it's on DVD. n/t

[Jamnt]

3. I understand how you feel...

It's always difficult during a crisis of faith. I rejected most religions when I was much younger, in my teens actually. It just didn't make sense that God, be it a Christian God, Jewish God, or a God of any other faith, would condemn billions of individuals to eternal hell because they didn't believe in the "right" God. But there are other spiritual practices out there that are more honest in their approach to individuals. I've found this in Zen Buddhism and it spoke to me very clearly. Maybe it will for you, maybe not. My suggestion to you is to research various religions and find out what they say. When you come across the correct theology (for you) I'm confident you will know it immediately.

[wryter2000]

23. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[William769]

4. It's all about faith & beliefs.

Thats a journey I think you have to take on your own. I for one am a Christian that has had my share of trials & tribulations throughout my life, I do believe though that it's my faith that has helped me through the hard times. For those who don't believe I don't try to convert, for those that try to belittle me because of my faith, well... they have my pity.

[pacalo]

6. Good answer! It's all about faith, faith, faith.

What gets me through all challenges is faith that there is a loving God who knows my heart, that He is listening, & that He cares, although God works in His own time rather than in the time we'd prefer. Knowing & believing that is a huge comfort to me.

[podnoi]

70. Keep in mind this forum is not frequented by Christians as a whole

I have found this forum (religion) to unfortunately be fairly hostile to Christians. I am sure many of those on DU that are believers stay away from this forum, as I usually do.
I am not belittling other opinions. It is just something to keep in mind.

[hunter]

71. Oh, bah, this Christian enjoys the fires...

I can respect the idea that coming here is a waste of time, but the idea that this place is somehow "hostile towards Christians" seems a pretty poor reason to dismiss it. It's not like this is Rome and they are feeding us to the lions.

[loveable liberal]

5. I like the Bible, it provides guidance as to how to treat others....

People seem to get hung up on the afterlife and death. Try and look around you and see all the life and see how we fit into nature. God would no more punish us in a "hell" than a parent would send their own children to such a place. Churches are supposed to remind us to live like Jesus and value the people around us. I dont believe he was the son of God, but he could have been based on his sacrifices. It's ok to question God and his existance. Thats why he gave you a brain.

And even if there is no afterlife, you're still a part of larger cycle of life. It may not be what you learned in Sunday school, but I guarantee, living forever would drive you insane....

Thus ends Loveable Liberals 2 cents.

[I Have A Dream]

7. You may want to check out some of the following other DU groups...

Seekers on Unique Paths
Astrology, Spirituality & Alternative Healing

These groups are not set up to debate religion/spirituality, but rather to support those who are drawn to spiritual things in non-traditional ways. (I'm not sure that I'm doing them justice in describing them, but you can read the first post in each group to understand the "mission" of each group.)

I recommend that you check them out.

Good luck with your searching -- it's a good thing!

(In reference to your Bible question: I personally believe in the being that is Jesus, and I've not been able to find one thing in the Bible that makes me not totally, utterly respect this being. However, I think that Paul took the Christian church in a false direction. I find it amazing that, given all of the changes that were made to the Bible by humans, Jesus' message is still there in full strength. Therefore, I listen and try to understand the words of Jesus, and I pretty much ignore anything that Paul said. I follow where my soul leads me, and this is where it has lead me during my search.)

[PassingFair]

72. Don't forget...

The Atheist and Agnostic group!

We won't bite ya!

[FloridaPat]

9. My beliefs are based on a lot of historical reading.

The Bible does quote Jesus, who I believe was the prophet for those time in history. The New Testament is written by several people, but it was handed down by work for several decades or centuries. It is divinely inspired. However, centuries of political mayhem by the Catholic church has made it somewhat corrupted, but not too much. The Bible pretty much points people into a good direction for their lives. However, not too many people actually read the book and just take the word of priests and ministers as to what it says and what it means. I was raised Catholic and at that time, Catholics only read the revised editions put out by the church. When I went to college, I did read the Bible and was suprised to find that wasn't the story I had been taught. When I talked to a priest about my problem, he told me that since I was a child, I was given the children's version, but now as an adult, I can read the original. I left the Catholic church shortly thereafter.

Jesus taught fundamental truths. Had people actually followed Jesus, things would be a lot different. Same with Islam. Muhammad claimed to be Jesus reborn and a prophet of God. He expounded on some of the stories in the Bible, mainly that Mary was a virgin. Muhammed taught the same basic teachings of Jesus with laws designed to make some of the worst societies in the world a more religious group. As a result, Islam took over Spain and other countries, brought peace, numbers, trade, math, and universities to the world. They helped Europe come back from the dark ages.

Anyway, both religions of these two prophets went corrupt after a very short period of time. Peter was the first Pope, but he was made pope 300 years after he died. Muhammid wanted Ali to be the leader of Islam after he died, and that wish was changed by the evil that seems to be in a lot of people. The basis of both religions is true and beutiful. It just religions that have given God a bad name.

[CJCRANE]

10. This is my Bible:

The Illustrated Book of Sacred Scriptures

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-0835607585-8

"Readings drawn from the sacred literature of traditional faiths — Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist; from lesser known spiritual paths — Taoist, Shinto, Zoroastrian, Jain, Sikh, Baha'i; from the oral wisdom of preliterate cultures — Australian Aboriginal, Native American; as well as from Gnostic Christianity and the Western mystery traditions makes this book a complete and inspiring survey of world spiritual thought".

Kinda like a "Meta-Bible" it distills the good bits from all religions and shows that they all agree on the basic "truths".

[niyad]

13. two books that I highly recommend are "when god was a woman" by

merlin stone, which will give you a very interesting view of the bible and its construction as a work of political propoganda. the other is "the woman's bible" by elizabeth cady stanton (yes, the suffragist).
as jubal harshaw observed in "stranger in a strange land" the bible has some very good ethical teachings (all of them "borrowed" from other myths and cultures) and a lot of things that make one say, "WHAT???"
as others have recommended, read and study widely for yourself. if and when you find a belief system that is right for you, it will undoubtedly feel as if you were "coming home". I happen to be an excommunicated catholic who is a practicing witch. Would be happy to answer any questions you might have in that regard.
good luck to you in your search. oh, you might also read joseph campbell's "the power of myth" or borrow it from your local library (the pbs special--bill moyer's amazing interview with him)

[ellenfl]

14. some believe the bible is the written word of god.

i believe it is a collection of writings by men in an attempt to control other men . . . and women. my parents were catholic (mother) and episcopalian but neither practiced their religion. i grew up going to sunday school but never really graduated to church. in my late teens, i accompanied friends to their churches but religion never 'took' with me.

i have found in all my years that those people who most proclaim their religiosity, are the ones who most often do not live by the good teachings of jesus, who i believe to have been no more than a prophet . . . or perhaps the martin luther king jr. of his day.

jesus was a liberal, you know. you can't tell that by the religious right in this country. imo, there is nothing christ-like about these people. the bible says that jesus taught that the least among us require our care. the bible, according to this country's religious zealots, tells those who are without to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps . . . disregarding the fact that they have no boots.

i turned from organized religion because of the hypocrisy i saw in it. i have not changed my mind about that decision. in the words of a columnist i read many years ago . . .

“. . . the atheist who believes in man and scorns God is closer to holiness than the religionist who believes in God and scorns man." Sidney J. Harris

ellen fl

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." Sinclair Lewis

[ClintonTyree]

31. Very well put..........

I was trying to decide how to respond to this post but you've summed it up quite well.

Voltaire said, "If there was no god it would be necessary to create him". That's exactly what happened, they created him. It's a great way for the "haves" to control the "have nots". There's always that carrot on a stick in front of the christian, "ever lasting life" in another dimension if they only remain complacent and abused in this dimension. Look around the world and you will see that the most religious people are the poor and downtrodden. They have nothing in this sphere but they're promised a seat at the right hand of god if they'll just accept their circumstance.

It took me many years to come to grips with this myself but after many years of research and self examination it's the only logical conclusion.

There is no god.

I'm not saying all religion is bad, it gives guidance and comfort to many and if that's it's purpose and it works, fine. Whatever gets you through your day. ;)

[NanceGreggs]

15. It really doesn't matter if the Bible ...

... is partial fiction, or total fiction, or anything else. If one finds valuable life's lessons within its pages, or if it inspires one to do good in the world, it has served a purpose.

I was raised as a strict Catholic - and I mean VERY STRICT - but I left the Church as soon as I turned eighteen, and my mother agreed she couldn't 'force' me to attend mass, or believe in something I obviously didn't believe in.

I studied religion after that as a non-participating observer, and later, after a year of study, I converted to Judiasm. Why? Because I found it most closely reflects my own spiritual side.

I strive to be part of what I call the 'Higher Religion', and believe one can get there via organized religion, or on one's own initiative. We all choose the path that directs us where we want to go. For some, it's the Bible; for others, it is Mass on Sunday; for others still, it is a quiet, personal pursuit.

What is the 'Higher Religion'? It has only one belief, one tenet, one Rule, one ideology that truly matters. It's simple: It's each other. If we look after each other - the people we know as individuals, as well as people around the world by becoming socially and poltically responsible - we are doing what God intended us to do all along.

I think you'll find many spiritual people here at DU. They are outraged by injustice, inequity, cruelty to others, the irresponsibility of not looking after the environment. They become involved in political activism because they CARE.

Being responsible for each other is to be part of the 'Higher Religion' - and many DUers are part of that, whether they know it or not.

[catmother]

16. don't know if it's fiction or not. the gospels were written 30 to 40

years after jesus was crucified. i think much of it is based on memories, dreams, reflections. i was raised roman catholic and believed that way until my 20s when i started to have doubts and question things. the older i got -- the more i questioned. i don't follow any religion but buddhism makes the most sense to me even though i'm not a practicing buddhist. just listen to the christian ministers screaming damnation and then listen to the dali lama. just looking at the dali lama makes me feel good. he's always smiling and has positive words.

but like others said, you have to find it yourself and it may take time. in the meantime just try to lead a good life, be compassionate toward others, follow the golden rule.

[ewagner]

17. I understand

My long journey began with a simple question to my Pastor in Cathecism Class...after memorizing the question and answer to: Who wrote the Bible? (answer: "The Bible was written by men inspired by God.") I blindly accepted that answer and pictured a bunch of men dressed in clothing of the biblical times, sitting at a long table in a cathedral with the "light of God" shinning through a stained glass window. Being in Junior High at the time, it occurred to me that this must have been a huge historical event and I would obviously learn about it next year in freshmen year world history. So I very bravely raised my hand and asked the Pastor, "When? When did this happen?

Instead of getting a direct answer, I got a lecture on my lack of faith. After the initial embarrassment and shame wore off, I realized that the question had never been answered and started seeking answers for myself....it's been a long voyage which has left me skeptical of almost all organized Christianity.

We each make a journey to seek truth and find higher meaning. We take different paths and arrive at different, but distinctly personally satisfying destinations. Enjoy the journey.

[mikehiggins]

18. It depends on what you mean by fiction

Is the Bible you pick up at the local motel the actual, inerrant Word of GOD?

How the hell can we tell? When I was in college a professor had my theology class play that famous game of passing a whisper from one person to another around the classroom (No, I don't know what it is called). Anyway, as might be expected, the final version of the story had little or no resemblence to what he whispered to the first student.

That was in a college class of some 20-odd fairly literate twentieth century Catholic teenagers (this was back when college degrees actually took a fair amount of work). Just imagine, the professor pointed out, how things in the Bible got changed from the words of the original illiterate shepherd in the middle east by the time King James' guys got a hold of it.

Does this mean you shouldn't appreciate the lessons it teaches? Well, yeah, sort of maybe no. Not, at least, when it says you can screw your daughter or that you'll be damned for not screwing your brother's widow, or stoning adulterous women or, or, or...

The other stuff, especially that stuff that revolves around the old "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" (which I guess means the Bush people REALLY want to get fucked over royally)stuff which seems a mainstay of every religion and philosophy extant (yes, including Nietzche).

So, if you beleive two real people named Adam and Eve really lived in a literal Garden of Eden, or that there really is a guy with horns and a pitchfork just waiting to seduce us into Hell, or even that Charlton Heston parted the Red Sea, well, you're beleiveing a pack of lies. If you beleive that the Bible has some valuable lessons to teach about how to live as a human being among other human beings, it has a lot to recommend it. Truth and accuracy, though, aren't among those things.

I hope this helps.

[Hissyspit]

19. Read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060738170/qid=1137353964/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-9264963-0186353?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[Poppyseedman]

20. Is the bible just a complete work of fiction?

In my opinion the answer is No.
I could give you many reasons why I think the answer is no, but they are all based on faith and religious reasoning.

The reason I want to give you is a simple one:

What other book that has been assaulted by forces wishing to crush it and kill it and what other writings have lasted for almost 2000 years in one form or another. What other writings are people willing to die the most horrible death to make sure people have access too.

There must be something in the words on those pages to keep it the most well read book on the planet which people are willing to die for even today.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. As much as I love DU

remember this. Nobody here has any more answers than the next guy. Their opinions on what is or is NOT a "pack of lies" is just that. OPINION. And that includes, God, Jesus, 9/11, Iraq, Iran, etc. None of us are all-knowing, although a lot of us would like you to believe we are.

You know they say the the 12 steps don't work until you work the steps. I know that to be true. My sister, a lifelong alcoholic always "hated" AA. But all she knew about it was reading the steps and attending a few compulsory meetings in detox. Now she is actually attending four days a week and meeting people and actually digging deeper into the steps. And it is working for her.

I draw that parallel because faith is the same way. When you look at it from the outside, it can look empty, impossible, silly. But if you put some time and heart into it, meet and fellowship with other believers once in a while, you may very well see changes in yourself.

Is the Bible true? Well, the OT has some elements of history, probably. It is an ancient document and fascinating for that reason. And of course there are myths and legends and impossible things. The NT is about Christ, and if somebody made it all up, they were a wise, wise soul because there is some amazing spiritual advice in that document.

Remember that no one knows for certain whether a man named Jesus Christ existed. We know there were 12 followers willing to (and most did) die for the belief that he rose from the dead. Personally, I think that is a powerful witness. But there are people on DU who will take great pains to point out why it never happened, and some with bad enough manners to call believers idiots and refer to sacred beings in others' religions as "sky fairies." Remember, THEY DON'T KNOW EITHER. I'm not sure what level of ego leads them to act as if they know; they don't. And either do I.

Your faith or lack thereof is an intensely personal path. Never take another's word for it. Go searching yourself.

[DesertRat]

24. Great response, Grannie

I wholeheartedly agree. Peace.

[wryter2000]

25. Interesting

I thought it was pretty well established that there was an intinerant preacher named Jesus (or Joshua) who was crucified by the Romans. I was under the impression that he was mentioned by a few people writing at the time.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. I had always thought that myself

but I've been led to believe that might not be the case. I do know that when they found that "casket" in Israel that said "Jesus, son of Joseph, brother of... John," (I think??) that it was said to be the first reference to JC in writing. Now there are some who feel it is a fake.

If you find out differently, please private email me.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. Uh - that was discredited.

Google 'James Ossuary'. The box is genuine but the inscription was faked. It was the inscription that supposedly tied the box to an historical Jesus.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

35. Right. That's was I thought

evidently the carving was too sharp to be that old or something like that.

[wryter2000]

39. The casket turne out not to be related to Jesus

But long before that casket turned up there were historical accounts of a Jesus, I think by some Romans. I don't have new information. If I find something, I'll let you know.

[grumpy old fart]

51. No contemporaneous accounts, as far as I know.

Nothing written by Jesus nor his disciples. Nothing from the Romans. Nada. Just stories written decades after the "fact".

[wryter2000]

59. I went looking at google

My brief checking seemed to show the evidence wasn't as conclusive as I'd thought. I'd heard years ago there was some good evidence for his life, but maybe not.

To me, it doesn't matter to his deity one way or the other. If he did live, that doesn't prove he was anything but a man. That part depends on faith, not history.

[LiberalFighter]

26. I wouldn't consider all of the bible to be a pack of lies

Where it talks about the creation... yes
Where it talks about David, Solomon... probably true

I would consider researching how the bible matches up with Jewish writings of their history. Even that is probably flawed. Mainly because the winners always write the history.

I personally don't consider the bible to be written by God. God definitely did not write or inspire the New Testament. If a God were to put together something it would not be more than one book beyond Genesis.

Jesus wasn't even a Christian. He was a Jew that wasn't trying to start a new religion.

[struggle4progress]

28. When asked if he could explain the Torah while standing on one foot,

Rabbi Hillel said, "Don't do to your neighbor anything you'd hate to have done to you. All the rest is just commentary."

What other direction do you need?

[Peace Patriot]

33. There are plenty of people who have faith, who are well aware that the

Bible was written by men, from stories and religious teachings interpreted by men, and that it is by no means a fixed document, but has been greatly edited over the millennia, in highly selective ways, and has been subject to the vagaries of many language translations, by many different translators. There is no reason that you cannot consider it an inspired document--even inspired by God. Many people do, even those who know the facts of its history.

I tend to view it more as a political document--it has rather a relentless tone against the Goddess (female God), and of course was written ENTIRELY by MEN. (I mean, think about it.) However, I think that the teachings of Jesus and the example of the way that he lived, in the New Testament, are more than inspired (in a literary sense). They seem to me to be the very consistent and highest teaching of a long line of holy people--highly conscious people, with great spiritual development, whose core was/is compassion--reaching all the way to India, laterally to England and the Druids, and nearer by, to the Neoplatonists in Alexandria and Greece, and including the esoteric Jewish groups around the Middle East, that were closest in location to Jesus.

The very earliest Christian groups, after the death of Jesus, before any "authorized" codifications of gospels or teachings--and well before any organized church--had ideas and practices much closer to Jesus in time, that included egalitarianism (for instance, the "priest" for their breaking of bread and drinking of wine (their remembrance of Jesus) could be anyone, even a woman or a child--the "priest" was chosen by lots), simple and communal living (they shared everything), and they had quite different beliefs from the later church about women (for instance, in the earliest dated gospel, "the Gospel of Mary," Mary Magdalen in the head of the Apostles). The Gnostics (from the Greek word = to know) also differed from the Church on the Crucifixion. They did not believe that Jesus endorsed pain and suffering as a requirement for salvation. They believe that he transcended the suffering (through esoteric practices). There is a book called "The Gnostic Gospels," by Elaine Pagels, which is quite good on this topic of these OTHER gospels. The Gnostic Gospels--which were buried in jars in a cave in Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in the 5th Century AD, and were recently discovered--have been assembled in the book "The Nag Hammadi Library."

To get back to what are called the "synoptic" gospels--those authorized by the "Church Fathers"--I think Jesus' message comes through with crystal clarity, despite anything that might have been done to these books for political purposes. It's rather amazingly clear, really, considering HOW MUCH translation, interpretation, editing, and political agendas they have been through. Love thy neighbor. Turn the other cheek. Give everything you have to the poor.

Couldn't be simpler. And if people want to call that "God," fine and good. Personally, I don't think of that inspiration as something apart from human beings, and existing in a separate realm, as another kind of being (a Father, or a Trio of Father, Son and "Holy Spirit"--such a one-sided picture of humans). I think that transformation--high spiritual consciousness--and compassion are manifest right here, in our actions and ideas. Seems to me Jesus was saying that, too. It's right here. It's YOU.

---------------

Thomas Jefferson did his own editing of the Bible, and pulled out the essence of Jesus' life and teachings. As a Deist, he loved the core message, and rejected the politics.
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

[Peace Patriot]

34. Here are Jefferson's views on Christianity in his own words--very moving:

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/jeffbsyl.html

[hang a left]

36. Wow! I cannot believe the wonderful responses to this post I have

received. Each and everyone of you has given my much to think about. I will take your suggestions and links and continue my quest.

I do believe that Jesus' teachings are beautiful and right on. I think that trying to live the way that he taught, whether he is a fictional character or not, is the key to happiness and peace within yourself.

Thanks to every single one of you! :grouphug:

[Warpy]

37. Read the book from cover to cover, like a novel,

begats and all, before you make any sort of decision.

At worst, the old testament is a Bowdlerized history of a people moving from a nomadic life to an agricultural and urban one. At best, it forms the mythic basis for much of western civilization. Any more than that is highly subjective, to say the least.

People at DU run through the entire spectrum of belief, with literalists who believe it's the inerrant word of god and who find Democrats a little better at carrying out Christ's teachings regarding feeding the poor and helping the sick than the GOP is, to mechanistic materialists at the other end, who think the bible is a work of fiction and we're all living in an impersonal, mechanincal universe.

Where you finally find yourself is your own business, of course, but anywere on the journey is a good place to start. It may be painful at times, but it's much better than having your belief system predigested and handed to you buy some guy in a bad suit and pompadoured hair who lives like a sultan on quarters collected from old people who are poor enough to eat at soup kitchens three times a week.

[renter]

38. Hang a left

With your knowledge and your patience maybe I can offer you a little help. Don't be sheepish :). I believe in you and your faith in God. When you have a quiet moment, ask a prayor. Don't worry about what to say, anyone who can come up with "hang a left" will find the words. Many of us, both young and younger, have difficult times. Perhaps the 23 Psalms would open the door again?

[Innocent Smith]

40. bible and fundamentalism

About 100 years ago GK Chesterton said "For fundamentalists what the Bible says it true - for others what the Bible means is true." He point being that it wasn't supposed to be viewed as completely literal document, but a mixture of history and stories conveying the basic message of "do unto others" and "love one another as I have loved you."

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

41. Remember the history of the Bible

The Bible you hold in your hand is a translation of translations of translations. One thing that might help you decide what of that book is to investigate biblical scholars who have gone back to original sources and done direct translations. I recommend the works of Neil Douglas-Klotz, who has spent years studying and meditating upon the Aramaic and Hebrew texts. His is a mystical take on the Bible, and may give you the answers you seek.

Wherever you find your answers, you will know by how it feels within your heart.

[grumpy old fart]

53. There are no "originals"....

The earliest of any of the texts is a copy of a copy of a copy...However, I agree, the earlier you can go the better.

[Zebedeo]

42. My suggestion:

Pray. Thank God for the blessings in your life. Earnestly ask God for understanding and discernment. Ask Him to guide you to the truth. Then read the Bible, or at least the New Testament. Some recommend starting with the Book of John. But also read other books. Get information from alot of different sources. Don't let others control your direction.

Books (in addition to the Bible) that I, as a Christian, would recommend include:

The Purpose Driven Life, by Rick Warren
The Purpose Driven Life
This is a wonderful book that attempts to answer the question, "What on earth am I here for?" which is a question that I think any intelligent and curious person has asked at one time or another. I highly recommend this book, which has helped millions of people find their purpose in life.

The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel
The Case for Christ The author is an investigative journalist, lawyer, and lifelong skeptic who set out to prove that Jesus was not the Son of God, but by the time he had finished, he had come to the opposite conclusion. Here's the Amazon.com review:

The Case for Christ records Lee Strobel's attempt to "determine if there's credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God." The book consists primarily of interviews between Strobel (a former legal editor at the Chicago Tribune) and biblical scholars such as Bruce Metzger. Each interview is based on a simple question, concerning historical evidence (for example, "Can the Biographies of Jesus Be Trusted?"), scientific evidence, ("Does Archaeology Confirm or Contradict Jesus' Biographies?"), and "psychiatric evidence" ("Was Jesus Crazy When He Claimed to Be the Son of God?"). Together, these interviews compose a case brief defending Jesus' divinity, and urging readers to reach a verdict of their own.

Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684823780/qid=1137368968/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-2674980-6272610?s=books&v=glance&n=283155">Mere Christianity

Here is the first customer review of this book on amazon.com:

I particularly enjoyed Lewis' insightful and clever use of real-world analogies to illustrate christian theological concepts - it not only made his points easier to grasp but made reading the book far more enjoyable then it might otherwise have been. And his calm, clear, level-headed mode of presentation is SUCH a contrast to current screeds on the topic, particularly those coming from the politically motivated far right wing people who have hijacked the term "christian" - as well as from the equally intellectually-challenged atheistic groups.

Right-wingers have done severe damage to Christianity in the United States over the last 20 years or so. As a result of their overtly political behavior they have alienated and driven away many, many people who might otherwise have been attracted to the teachings of Jesus. Many people would probably never dream of picking up a book entitled "Mere Christianity" as a result. However, I encourage anyone with an interest in spirituality, ethics, and/or religion to read this book - it will give you a good picture of what "Real Christianity" is all about.

Here are a couple of other customer reviews:

C.S. Lewis is perhaps the greatest Christian thinker of the 20th century. This book is one of his masterpieces. Basically this book is a reasoned explanation of the Christian religion. He covers the Trinity, the book of Genesis, etc. However, this is not light reading. Some books by Lewis (such as the "Great Divorce" and "Chronicles of Narnia") are very light and profound reading. Mere Christianity is not light. It's one of those books that you have to read one page three times before you move on. Lewis is not afraid to get deep and detailed in this book. There's a lot of philosophy in here which I like, its not just an "I believe and that's that" type of book. Really heavy, but rewarding reading.

C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, is a publication that I re-read on a regular basis. I often have to re-read the pages also, since they are very thought provoking and in-depth, thus the need to re-read many of the complex issues.
My book is filled with highlighted text and notes in the borders. It looks like my bible at times and this is a good thing for serious students of Christianity.
Buy this book and pass it on to others, if they are serious about study and advanced thought.
It is sometimes hard at first, to get into it, but it is well worth the effort.

I would urge you to keep an open mind, and don't let other people tell you what to believe (or what not to believe). You, as an individual person, have the free will to accept or reject Christianity. I would simply suggest that you do not give up on Christianity until after you have read these books. :)

[InaneAnanity]

63. And here is mine

www.samharris.org

[applegrove]

43. Look at it like an allegory. It is a book culturally of its times. Pull

that stuff away and look and the underlying message. The bible was written by humans after all. Think of things like the golden rule, or that scapegoating was suddenly thought of as bad: Jesus died so that we would blame God instead of your neighbor. That is a huge thing.

Many of the stories in the Bible are true or based on fact. Some of them didn't take place in the areas they said - but were from the oral tradition of the whole region. Other countries have stories of Noah. I would take the 6 thousand year timeline of begets in the bible as true. Perhaps not every thing that happened happened exactly or to the person mentioned. But there is alot of good in there. You just have to pull out the stuff that makes you a better person - and disregard the stuff that was old-fashioned or practical. People didn't eat pig because it is a very dangerous meat in a hot climate. People married their widowed sister-in-laws because those families that did stick together, had more healthy kids. Christians didn't like usury - and that was bad - that resulted in the dark ages (no credit) and massive poverty.

So to say it isn't true - isn't true. Some parts are, or they are not. Some things are wrong. Some things are brilliant. What an amazing thing god did when he created civilization and tools for people to live together instead of at each others' throats where strongmen ruled the day and nobody had any rights. Bible tried to rid the world of the culture of personality. And who would want to live under that?

So see it as that if you are struggling. Because that is what it is. A miracle for sure. An early form of democracy. Early human rights. And those greater values are something we need desperately today. Doesn't matter to me if you hold those values as coming from the bible, or anthropology, or from some other culture. All miracles. Don't give up on the ones you held so dear. Just take a step back. Read books on the history of religion.

[PassingFair]

44. Try reality.

There is no need for faith when you experience true acceptance.
Try reading Dan Barker's "Losing Faith in Faith" or ANYTHING by Richard Dawkins.
The works of J.S. Mill, Thomas Paine, Voltaire...

Once your mind is free of superstition, real strength of character can grow.

[hunter]

46. Reality is much too big to fit inside one's head.

So we must live by stories.

There are superstitious stories, there are scientific stories; there are stories of all kinds.

That one might actually free one's mind of superstition sounds like a superstition to me.

Every story we tell, even the most scientific story we tell, has some degree of superstition to it. Every argument we make is founded in some faith.

That any human being has this aspect called "character," which might somehow grow in "stregnth" is not a scientific story. In fact, I might easily demonstrate that it is some kind of superstition...

;)

[PassingFair]

48. Well, we each speak for ourselves.

My reality has no need for magical thinking.

[funflower]

62. But, then, THAT could be another superstition!!!

(snip)
That one might actually free one's mind of superstition sounds like a superstition to me.
(snip)



:beer:

[kwassa]

52. Reality is a debatable concept

[PassingFair]

54. It works for me. n/t

[NAO]

45. It is epic literature - like the Iliad and the Odyssey

If you approach it as if it were The WORD of God, with everything in it being True, you will find a mass of errors and contradictions.

If you find yourself stuck in this literalist/infallibilist mind-set, I highly recommend the easy and fun to read works or Robert Ingersoll, which are available free on-line. Start with "Some Mistakes of Moses".

Some Mistakes of Moses
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/some_mistakes_of_moses.html

Other works of Ingersoll online:
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.html

Also, don't miss the movie "The God Who Wasn't There", a fascinating documentary that will really shake up your views about the origins of Christianity. I've been an atheist for 20 years, and I was very surprised and entertained by that movie.

The God Who Wasn't There
http://thegodmovie.com

View Trailer:
http://www.thegodmovie.com/clip-Trailer.php

[FM Arouet666]

47. I just cannot resist

Reading most of the posts to this thread, I see a number of believers urging you to 'pray' to 'read this or that' in the hope that you will not lose your faith. Read what you like, explore the world for yourself, if you find that religion is not your cup of tea, great. If you still hold on to some faith, great again. Whatever floats your boat.

For what it is worth, I think that the bible was written by mankind, no divine inspiration. The miracles described within are untrue, violating laws of nature which modern science has clearly demonstrated. The book describes a supernatural realm with a loving god, his son, and some old ghost. I have no reason to assume that a supernatural exists anymore than I have a reason to believe in the bogeyman or UFOs.

But that is me, I don't care if you believe or not.

I am not going to tell you to read atheistic, scientific, or skeptical treatises exclusively. Read the bible, read all those pro-religion books mentioned above, but also read books which offer a counter point of view. Information is what you need to reach the conclusion you seek. Ever notice that many religions seek to limit knowledge, banning books, boycotting movies, the faithful always urging you to come to church, stay within the flock. The 'church' justifies censorship as a means to shield believers from the evil of the world. In reality, the church wants to keep believers ignorant of contrary points of view. Fearing, as you did, that much of what is packaged as religious fact is just fiction.

:evilgrin:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

49. I agree

when you are searching, you should search all the way. And then judge.

And one other caveat. There is a scripture, and I have no idea where it is from. The Bible, I assume. But it is wise, and says, paraphrased "just like a tree, you will know a person by their fruits."

I remember that when making my decisions on philosophy, faith, etc.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

79. I totally agree.

If you stay with Christianity despite it really just not feeling right, you are hurting yourself more than anything else.

[mzteris]

55. If you can't believe the Bible ...

A scholar considers how much of the hand of man is in the word of God

For more than 30 years, Bart Ehrman has been driven by a quest to explore the origins of the New Testament -- a quest that has made him one of the most distinguished scholars on the history of the biblical text and the early church. Now he has written a new book outlining his research, which has led him to lose his faith and others to re-evaluate their relationship to the Scriptures.

"Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why," is Ehrman's attempt to explain to non-scholars some of the findings of New Testament historians and translators over the past 300 years. For those who believe the Bible emerged more or less intact, his research may be eye-opening. Ehrman, who is chairman of the department of religious studies at UNC-Chapel Hill, hopes the findings challenge readers to see the Bible in a new way.

"For most people, the Bible is a non-problematic book," Ehrman said. "What people don't realize is that they're reading translations of texts, and we don't have the originals."

The premise of "Misquoting Jesus" is that the New Testament has evolved over time. In the first few centuries after Jesus' crucifixion, scribes manually copied the books that would ultimately compose it. In the course of reproducing the manuscripts, they accidentally or intentionally made thousands of changes to the texts. Although most of those changes were insignificant, Ehrman argues some were theologically driven and intended to settle disputes that raged in the early church over doctrine and belief.



-more -

http://www.newsobserver.com/105/story/387840.html

[grumpy old fart]

56. He has some wonderful lectures on DVD with the Teaching Company....

Those interested in lifelong learning owe it to themselves to explore this rich resource for academic lectures....

http://www.teach12.com/teach12.asp?sa=4001&ai=19096&media=Google&keyword=the_learning_company&tg=brand&lander=bkv_homepage&misc=exact

[mzteris]

57. Thanks -

I didn't realize he had a DVD with them.

We love the Teaching Company. (My older son homeschools - so they're a great resource - though a bit pricey.)

[InaneAnanity]

58. Occam's Razor

If there is no evidence of a god, no signs of a god, here on earth, then what is more likely??

There is a god, who is hidden, and who works in mysterious ways??

or

There is no god, and the creation of religion was based on human fears??

-------------------------

The answer should be obvious.

[banana republican]

60. In the end; At "judgment time" you will only be asked

I was naked did you clothe me?
i was hungry did you feed me?
I was sick did you heal me?
I was in jail did you visit me?

And the evil doers asked:
when did we see you naked
when did we see you hungry
when did we see you sick
when did we see you in jail

and He will answer
what ever you have done to the least of these you have done to me.

(paraphrased)


Don't sweat the small stuff;
Do the important stuff let people know that you care.

[Zebedeo]

64. Those, plus an additional question

"Who do you say that I am?"

baruchhashem

[MikeH]

66. Suppose a person is asked that

"Who do you say that I am?"

Suppose a person is asked that, and asked that by Jesus. If a person has, for all his or her life, been an adherent of a "wrong" religion (i.e. any religion other than Christianity), and gives the "wrong" answer to that question, is that person automatically doomed to hell for all eternity?

[beam me up scottie]

67. Oh, that's easy.

Bring a fan, you'll need it where we're going.:evilgrin:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=41704&mesg_id=42056

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=41704&mesg_id=42065

[FM Arouet666]

68. I am confused, 'who' do you say I am?

From your link.....

And He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Who is the King of glory? The L-RD strong and mighty, The L-RD mighty in battle.

This bible stuff is a bit too hard for me. Let us see, who could it be. L-RD? A word game perhaps. LizaRD? LaRD? That's it, it must be the answer to my salvation.

Hey god, I say you are the Lizard of Lard, the mightiest reptile in the valley. Now, can you open this gate and point me to a cloud with a few scantily clad angels and a wet bar.

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

69. You didn't say the magic word.

:evilgrin:

[MikeH]

65. Deism has come to make sense to me

I used to be a Christian, but found that Christianity, and supposedly having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, did not at all enable me to better deal with anything in my life that was a source of personal pain, frustration, or unhappiness.

I also cannot accept the belief, adhered to by many if not most or all Christians, that a person needs to explicitly accept Jesus Christ in this lifetime to avoid being condemned to hell for all eternity. If a person misses out in this life, too bad.

However I have problems being an atheist. I have a hard time believing that our reasoning ability, and our sense of beauty, truth, goodness, justice, right and wrong, etc. are not rooted in some reality higher than ourselves or the natural universe. Even though I am no longer a Christian, I still accept the arguments of Christian apologists such as C. S. Lewis and J. B. Phillips along these lines.

Here is a link to a post I made recently in a thread about deism, where I listed something like ten different web sites about deism. Each of the links has a different perspective; deists don't all agree about everything, nor do they feel they have to.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=45662&mesg_id=45673

They basically believe in using reason to understand God. They particularly reject any alleged divine revelation, considering such to be at best second-hand, or hearsay. I would go along with this, such a view still accepts that people can get spiritual nourishment from books like the Bible or Koran.

One problem with supposed revelations like the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Book of Mormon, etc. is that there are several alleged revelations of God; which is the correct one? And is a person's eternal destiny a matter of guessing which alleged revelation of God is correct; make the wrong guess and a person is condemned to hell for all eternity?

[Skeptor]

73. It's a lot of things...

History, politics, poetry, pre-science (in its attempts to explain life, cosmology, etc), pop psychology (why do I feel embarrassed without my clothes on, grandpa?), not forgetting spirituality and even a bit of the naughty stuff, o and lots of revenge and killing and mass murder (God did all that?!) and much of it is plain wrong (no, the earth does not stand on four pillars, and if all the animals went in two-by-two, or in sevens - depending on which passage you read - no boat would have been big enough and there is way too much water in the story to have had anywhere to come from or disappear to, anyhow)....but outright lies? Possibly no deliberate ones.

Archaeologists found the ancient cities of Troy, Ur and a few others by reading clues in the Bible. So there's at least some proof positive for the veracity of parts of it. But if you think that has to make it all true, then you're on about as solid ground as believing a newspaper of your choice to be all true, just because it reports accurate baseball scores.

The Bible is a compilation of books brought together and authorized under the instructions of the first nominally Christian (but essentially pagan) Roman emperor, Constantine, some time in the fourth century. It is a more-or-less arbitrary selection of the many writings claiming to be both accurate and holy, and was made at a time when the Roman Empire was crumbling away at the edges and from within as a result of having over-extended itself, and the failure of crops due to poor farming practices (got too greedy, sent too many soldiers away from home, environmental degradation - it all sounds too familiar). Many people turned to Christianity for solace, but the early church was highly factionalized in its beliefs and practices. Constantine simultaneously 'saw the light' and realised that Christians could be more useful to him as soldiers than as lion bait, and that as the head of a Christian Roman Empire there might be some chance of resisting the invading Germanic armies. That the editorial committee had to meet in what became Turkey was symptomatic of the fact that Rome was about to see shock and awe, Hun style.

Personally, I think anyone who takes anyone else's word for it (whether written down or not) that they really, truly did hear the VOICE OF GOD AND HE SAID ... YADDA YADDA...to be a gullible nincompoop. But that's what a lot of preachers try to convince people is essential to "faith". They are deluding, if not themselves, then their flock. If you feel that you personally are somehow hooking into a divine communication, then that's another matter entirely and just fine, so long as you don't also find that you suddenly think you can fly. Put it to the sanity test. Does your faith help you get along in life, with other people, in making wise decisions, calming down when you've been upset? If yes, then it's probably good medicine. But just bear in mind that we're all different, and the same medicine doesn't suit everybody. Also, some people are inherently more, or less religious than others.

Take me. I'm not a believer. Never have been, even while I attended a Christian school. I just don't see it as necessary, and I see a whole lot of garbage strewn out by this-and-that faith group proclaiming theirs to be the one-and-only-truth. There's something profoundly illogical about that. I get the impression that the world's religious leaders are beginning to get around to accepting that truth is a very personal matter, and God is best thought of not as some external independent agent with a mind or intentions separate from believers, but as something integrated into the fabric of human minds (even unbelievers can conceptualise "God") and the universe.

The Bible presents God as a kind of super father-figure, which is kind of quaint and homely but essentially pagan, especially if you take into account all the other 'divine' beings that populate the stories. It makes much more sense if you take much of it metaphorically, and stories like Noah's Ark as exaggerations with possibly a grain of truth. The Noah story resembles closely other stories that can be dated to before the Bible, originating from the Mesopotamian valley that experienced annual flooding and occasionally a real biggie. It's not too hard to imaging fishing/farming families packing themselves with their farm animals onto the boat and attempting to ride it out, or people mythologising significant events by weaving moral tales into them.

Even when it comes to Jesus, all the stories can be understood well as containing a grain of accurate reportage, a bit of exaggeration, a lot of adulation for an inspirational spiritual leader, and the author's own interpretation. I've seen a graph that plots the alleged miracles of Jesus against a timeline of the Gospels. In the earliest Gospel, you get only one or two wierd happenings. By the time you get to the last, miracles are routine. Just like big fish stories.

The Bible's a great read, and inspirational. But it does, in spite of the early editorial work, contain quite a few contradictions. Even Genesis encapsulates, on close analysis (something fundamentalist pastors tend to lack skill or inclination in) two distinct and contradictory creation stories. So to accept every word of the Bible as literal truth is to accept contradictions. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, especially when there's divine retribution, fire & brimstone in the offing if you put a step wrong.

Here's another little problem for people who keep trying to tell you that the Bible is "the word of God" so you have to believe it, since nowhere in the Bible does it declare that it, i.e. the whole kit & caboodle, is "the word of God". And even if it did, the argument would be a circular one and so simply not worth anything, logically speaking. So it comes back again to working things out for yourself. No-one says that God actually stuck a big hand through the clouds, took up pen and paper and wrote the texts (although I've read 'creation science' accounts from the 1960's that go more-or-less along those lines). The standard line is that God 'spoke to' certain privileged individuals who then recorded the 'communications' as best they could. The liberal theological position is (as I understand it) that the authors of the books of the Bible were not so much dictated to from on high, as 'felt the spirit move them', perhaps no differently from anyone who comes up with a wise or worthy statement through deep reflection.

Your cunundrum is due in large part to a sense of the weight of history and the prevailing culture. If you lived in a country where a religion other than Christianity was prevalent, and your grandma had gone to a mosque, temple or whatever, it might not be the Bible you were concerned about but some other holy texts. All of them are the products of people exercising their minds and trying to make sense of the world around them and what's going on inside them, and people sometimes get things wrong, even when the spirit (whatever it might be) moves them. And even scientists ;-)

[Skeptor]

74. Error in previous post

I wrote too quickly and muddled the points I intended to make. The city of Troy was discovered by Heinrich Schliemann in a location suggested by the ancient Greek writer Homer's story The Illiad. The point has been made by others long ago, that merely because the legendary city's existence was confirmed, it should not be taken to imply that all of The Illiad is a true story.

[JerseygirlCT]

75. My belief would be that the bible is a useful book of

wisdom handed down from past generations. Divinely inspired perhaps, but not to be taken in any literal way.

It is full of faults and errors -- because it is the work of men, not God. Men, though, (and unfortunately, mostly men... I suspect the women's part of the story was simply left on the floor as it were...) who had a sincere faith and wished to share it. Men who had felt the presence of God and wished to help others understand.

I wouldn't write the whole thing off -- I'd just learn to use it through more critical eyes. Use your judgement -- that's why God gave it to you, you know?

I also think there is wisdom to be found in the holy works of other faiths. And that in fact, there are many underlying truths shared by many of the world's major religions. That underlines them all for me.

My rector would probably remind you that faith is not the absence of doubt. Doubt, rather, is the leading edge of faith. See where it takes you!

[TreasonousBastard]

76. Coupla small things I'd like to add...

I'm trying to remember the citation for the monk who said "Religion is for those afraid of going to Hell, spirituality is for those who have already been there."

Ultimately, we are spritual beings looking for something in the "beyond," be it gods or aliens or our own inner selves. The Bible is simply one path on that spiritual quest, and it's not a bad one if dealt with properly.

It is full of mythology, and the details are often irrelevant-- it's the point of the myth that's important.

We know the New Testament was written over several hundred years and codified by the Church long after the fact. What's not all that well known is that the Old Testament was also revised at least once, and probably several times by Hebrew scholars up until Roman times. The Israelites did not have the same scriptures modern Jews have. No one knows how all the parallels between so many religions and the more ancient Zoroastrianism actually arose. Or Hinduism which origins may be more ancient yet. Many, if not all, modern religions owe much to others, even if they don't acknowledge that debt.

None of that makes much difference, though. Whether it's the Koran, the Bible, Confucius or Buddha's sayings, Mao's Little Red Book, or the Upanishads, it is the basic message that believers receive. And that message is extremely personal and spiritual.

Religious texts are guidebooks for the journey, and like all guidebooks, you take what's personal to you. Personally, I grew up with Christianity, and that's what I understand best, so I'll stick with it and make the best of it.

[Ladyhawk]

77. Question everything. That's good.

Giving up religion is very, very painful, but when I gave up my religion it was because I had to follow the truth.

Yes, I believe that everything supernatural mentioned in the bible is fiction. It was painful to admit this to myself, but in the interest of following truth, I had to do it. I hope you have a better support system in place than I did. Everyone was telling me I was wrong and to come back to the "fold." I just couldn't, so they dumped me.

Here's my story: http://tinyurl.com/8gq85

Don't forget to ask the atheists who rejected relgion for their stories, too. The ultimate decision is yours, of course, but if you are committed to following the truth, be prepared for anything. If you decide the whole thing is bunk, you'll need some support. It hurts like hell.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

78. Strangely enough, when I realized a few months ago that I was no Christian

I cried with joy. I was so happy, just because my discontent had a reason---I. Did. Not. Believe. As. My. Mother. Did. Of course, she'll still try to tell me once and a while that I need to find my faith, and I tell her that I have: I am a pantheist, plain and simple.

I really don't know what to say, except to read anything and everything you can get your hands on. Maybe you were meant for your faith, which I am assuming, based on your word choice, is Christianity, and you are just going through a rough patch. If it feels truly, soulfully wrong, however, get out. You'll be SO glad you did, as I am.

:hug:

WIMR