Is Islam Evil? Thoughtful responses only please.

[grumpy old fart]

This may have ties to the Sam Harris discussion we are also having. Interesting resources here:

"In the early part of his religious career, Mohammad preached tolerance as he sought acceptance in Mecca but became a vicious tyrant as he rose to power in Medina. He culminated his career as a warrior: he plundered, slaughtered, terrorized, and conquered until he extended his power through out the Arabian Peninsula".

http://libertyandculture.blogspot.com/2005/12/islam-in-summary.html

http://www.liberty-and-culture.com/pages/2/index.htm

Looking to the History and Texts, why should we be so tolerant this and other religions causing problems for the secular world?

[Botany]

1. No

Just like Christianity, Judaism, being Hindu, Shinto, Agnostic, and so on.

It is what the people do with their religion.

[teenagebambam]

2. No belief system is inherently evil

But any individual who would use that belief system to justify harming others IS evil.

[ramapodem]

3. No

Only fanatics are evil.

[Nightflurry]

21. Right on

It's the fundies or fanatics that are evil.

I'm no Christian, but I respect and like the teachings of Jesus. If more 'Christians' followed Jesus' teachings over Pauls the world would be a much better place.

It's just the extremists you have to watch out for. I have friends that are Agnostic, Athiest, Buddhist, Christian, Mormon, Taoist, and Wiccan.. we all get along just fine.

[Goblinmonger]

28. Sorry, completely off topic

but all I could think of after reading your last line is the Mr. Garrison song from South Park, "Merry Fucking Christmas."

[benburch]

4. No, of course not.

But some evil people are Islamic. Some are Protestants, too.

[grumpy old fart]

12. Was Mohammad one of those "evil people" to which you refer?

Even his staunchest supporters admit that he personally killed people.

[soothsayer]

5. Mohammed's Islam was great: pro-women, pro-science, very

forward thinking. It's since been perverted (by some) into something that Mohammed wouldn't recognize, just as Jesus would be appalled by so much of Christianity.

[grumpy old fart]

13. Mohammad himself killed infidels, no?

"Muhammad soon became master of Medina, partly by converting some of the inhabitants of the city and partly by expelling those residents who refused to accept the revelations he offered them. He then began to wage war against the inhabitants of Mecca..."

http://www.ku.edu/kansas/medieval/108/lectures/islam.html

[Dufaeth]

35. pro-women????

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

[C_U_L8R]

6. Just like Christianity

Islam and Christianity in themselves are not evil but there are
a lot of wicked people doing a lot of f'd up stuff in the name of "god".
(our president included)
There should be no tolerance for fundamentalist fascism
no matter what banner it flies... and we are perhaps better
served cleaning up our own backyards before we go about
destroying our neighbor's.

[Blutodog]

8. I agree

Evil is as evil does.

[Warpy]

7. All monotheistic religions have a great potential for evil

since all claim to have the only true god out there. Throw in a fantasy of persecution, a desire for martyrdom, and a commandment to go forth and gain converts, and you have a recipe for an inevitable clash.

That clash is invariably evil.

[BoneDaddy]

14. umm

I think history also shows that polythestic religions also have a penchant for violence. The Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Norse and so on and so on.

[grumpy old fart]

16. I'm not comparing superstitions, just discussing Islam...........

which we tend to give a pass as just another peaceful religion being perverted by evil people.

[BoneDaddy]

18. true

I agree that Islam is different from Christianity in that Jesus did not advocate violence as a means to an end, but I think that puts Islam on more par with Judaism which as the OT shows us is full of violence on part of the tribes of Israel, not to mention the other cultures around them.

I do think it is totally possible to adhere to any of those religions and be either peaceful or violent and that we could probably justify both actions based upon multiple parts of the Torah, Bible and Koran.

It has less to do with the actual texts of these books and more to do with the type of person someone is and what they bring with them into their religion. For example it is obvious to me that the mindset of the Christian fundamentalists is not much different than the mindset of the Islamic fundamentalists.

[grumpy old fart]

22. Excellent point. Now for the Sam Harris argument against all religion....

"I do think it is totally possible to adhere to any of those religions and be either peaceful or violent and that we could probably justify both actions based upon multiple parts of the Torah, Bible and Koran".

By supporting the notion of, giving a pass to, or otherwise tacitly validating various religious texts, do we not also give support to the more radical or violent readings of those texts? If we simply say, "oh, they're reading this or that portion of a text all wrong", doesn't that just give radicals the opportunity to debate?

Wouldn't we just be better off admitting that it's all superstition, whether "moderate" or "radical"?

[ozone_man]

31. Much better off.

"The idea, then, that Islam is evil has far more plausibility than the idea that United States is evil.

No, it's no more plausible. I think the world pretty much agrees that America is evil. But to say that Islam is any worse than Christianity is a bit of a stretch. What type of Christianity? The Christainity of Jesus, or the Christianity of Paul? In this country, it is generally the latter which is practiced. How often do we hear Bush or Jerry Falwell say, turn the other cheek or love thy neighbor?

"Why is Islam exempt from critical analysis? In Western society, there is no shortage of critics of Christianity."

I disagree, there's a huge shortage of critics of Christianity. We can't be elected president in the U.S. unless we're a Christian and accept Jesus as our savior. But it's a relative situation. Where Islam is now is where Christainity was 500 years ago, or more. Christian Crusades and Inquisitions, and Catholic church Nazi sympathy, were every bit as bad as Islam in the modern day. How to bring Islam into the modern era, to make it a more tolerant religion, is the question. By degrees it's probably more flawed than the other Abrahamic religions, but it's faith in ancient myths which is the core problem. Everything else is just a side issue.

[Goblinmonger]

30. I think there are just as many references to violence

against infidels in the old testament as in the Koran. It's what you do with the dogma that makes you a shithead.

[grumpy old fart]

9. But what of Mohammad's own early history?

Jesus himself never led an army, nor personally killed anyone. The Bible, nor other "religious" texts speak of splitting the booty of war with the founding figure (Koran 8:1), etc....

[Oversea Visitor]

10. And Lady Fatimah is Virgin Mary

Strange that so many just does not know that both Islam and Christianity are from the same root.

[enigma000]

11. No. It is a far more "warrior" type religion than others

I think the "evil" we may see in Islam stems from it being far more aggressive than other, more modest faiths: Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, to name a few. Granted, many of the above religions have had followers who committed many unfortunate acts, but I don't want to turn this into a discussion of who did what to whom and who was worse.

Jesus entered Jerusalem riding a donkey; Mohammad entered Mecca (I believe) leading an army. 100 years after Jesus death, Christians lived throughout the Roman Empire and were a persecuted underclass. 100 years after Mohammad's death, Islamic armies were in central France.

The sword was always a greater part of spreading Islam than other religions. This might be why Islam is gaining adherents - anyone willing to fight and die for their faith, presumably has a faith worth doing this for.

[C_U_L8R]

15. Hmm let's see how "warrior" THEY are.. in comparison

We invade and destroy whole countries.. and they?

We build weapons of stupendous destruction
like atom bombs, hydrogen bombs, neutron bombs...
and they?

We develop poisons and gases to destroy whole populations.. and they?

We create technologies that have ruined the earth, the air and the water
for all humanity.. and they?

Or maybe you are looking at how they treat their criminals and
think things like chopping off heads is barabaric...
well how barbaric is being electrocuted to death... or gassed to death...
or injectic with a corrosive poison that destroys your innards.

Again.. I think we got our own mess to deal with before
we go about telling other people how to think and behave.

"we have seen the enemy and he is us"

[grumpy old fart]

17. "We" are a democratic republic, not a religion....apples and oranges...n/t

[enigma000]

19. Good point Mr. Fart

I think the subject at hand is the message and sanctioned actions of Islam (vs other religions) and not the actions of their respective followers. Actions, deplorable or saintly, taken by the state and by people in the Western world is no longer simply done for religious reasons. Not in North America and certainly not in post-Christian (or perhaps neo-Pagan?) Europe.

Assume for a moment that all religions have lost their way, the question is: at its core, its fundamental teachings, is Islam far more destructive to and far less compatible with the modern world than other religions?

[grumpy old fart]

23. Mr. Grumpy, if you please..........n/t

:evilgrin:

[C_U_L8R]

20. Apples vs Oranges ...it's all fruit

Hey as long as our president is conducting
war in the name of GAWD they are all in the same basket
as far as I'm concerned.

(ps I understand your POV and don't intend this as flame...
I am just horrified at the crimes and abuses being carried out
in the name of "the Prince of Peace")

[grumpy old fart]

24. Amen to that. And our tilting toward theocracy is embarrassing....

And/or scary. I mean prayers before cabinet meetings? What next, ritual sacrifices?

[C_U_L8R]

26. If I see one more sanctimonious "prayer" on TV

i'm gonna hurl large objects through the TV tube.

What kind of asshole gets on TV and prays !!!????
That isn't prayer.. that's posing.
These fundie shitheads are really nothing but poseurs.

('scuse the language.. . I've had it)

[enigma000]

25. Bush does a disservice to Christianity

but its also important to note that the Church of England, not too long ago, apologized for the Iraq War on behalf of King and Country. A war they did not even support.

My fear is Islam, like Christianity, is guided by a calling to spread the word and find converts, but unlike Christianity accepts violence as tolerable approach to this mission. (notwithstanding the Conquistadors, Crusades and other such events) And if this were 200 years ago, before the creation of explosives, air travel, the internet, nuclear power and its by-products, I wouldn't give this a second thought. But that world is gone now, and any religion, ideology or ism that encourages violence in its promotion is dangerous. I guess it goes for political ideology was well, I imagine more people were killed in the name of Karl Marx than killed in the name of Jesus Christ.

If George Bush is a bad Christian and Osama bin Laden is a good Muslim, where does this leave us? Doomed?

[grumpy old fart]

27. But there are many, not just fundies, who think Bush is a GOOD Christian..

Until we, as a nation, accept that both Bush and Bin Laden base their lives (and as a consequence, our lives) on superstition, and become outraged about this fact, we are indeed going to have trouble for a long time to come...

[Orrex]

29. Evil is a social, cultural, and aesthetic convention--nothing more

To that end, Islam is "evil" according to some people and "not evil" according to others. The terms "good" and "evil" shouldn't be mistaken for the absolute concepts they purport to represent because they're no more meaningful than "ugly" and "pretty."

To my way of thinking, any religion that embraces magical thinking and a belief in invisible phenomena is "evil" because it is destructive to rational inquiry and makes the adherent hihgly succeptible manipulation based on assertions with no evidence.

[grumpy old fart]

32. Bingo..........n/t

[Zebedeo]

33. That, it seems to me, is an extremely troubling philosophy.

If, as you suggest, there is no objective good or evil, then any action is objectively just as "good" as any other. So giving a drink of water to a young child who is dying of thirst is morally equivalent to giving strychnine to the same child. The actions of Mother Teresa would be morally equivalent to the actions of Hitler. I find that notion preposterous and obviously incorrect.

[Orrex]

36. Sorry, but you're arguing by assertion (that is, not arguing at all)

If you'd care to assert that "good" and "evil" are real and objective properties, please articulate for me exactly how you know this to be true. And then please articulate how you are able to distinguish these "real" principles from the conventions instilled in you by your social, cultural, and aesthetic context. And then please articulate how you are qualified to judge which is "good" and which is "evil," again outside of your social/cultural/aesthetic context.

And I would ask that you not appeal to the bible or to any metaphysical faith: if "good" and "evil" are objective concepts, then there's no need to appeal to a higher power for your definition.

I accept that it can be troubling to realize that "good" and "evil" have no definition outside of the ones we give them, but until I see evidence to the contrary, I will maintain my assertion.

It's similar, in a way, to the idea that some people are uncomfortable with the idea that God might not exist. But God's existence or nonexistence is entirely independent of people's discomfort.

So it is with "good" and "evil." Whether or not you find it preposterous, it may well be the case that neither has any objective existence.

[manic expression]

34. No.

Not at all.

First, Mohammad did lead wars, but this does not make Islam war-like. Furthermore, the Quranic passages that are "war-like" can be taken in a myriad of ways, many of them very enlightened and admirable.

Muslims were very peaceful and accepting and allowed for the progression of mathematics. This has continued in many ways. It was not Islam that fueled the Crusades. It was not Islam that destroyed the cultures of the Americas.

However, fundamentalists have misused Islam, just like most other religions have experienced.

[The Magistrate]

37. Locking

Site linked to is a hard right affair, endorsing the likes of Horowitz and Pipes, among others, and the article is certainly an exercise in bigotry.