Does anyone really know when jesus was born??

[dkofos]

Not to make a fuss, but I have found nothing that tells me jesus was born
on Dec. 25th. According to Wikipedia, noone is even sure what year he was born.

When was Jesus born?

Gerd Theissen and Annette Merz write, "There is no certain indication of the precise year of his birth. Certainly Matthew and Luke agree in attesting that Jesus was born in the lifetime of Herod the Great (Matt. 2.1ff.; Luke 1.5), i.e. according to Josephus (Antt. 17, 167, 213; BJ 2, 10) before the spring of 4 BCE. This terminus ante quem is certainly probable, but there is some dispute over it, as doubts about the reliability of the chronological information in both the Matthean and Lukan infancy narratives is justified." (The Historical Jesus: A Comprehensive Guide, Fortress Press: Minneapolis, 1998: page 153)

Luke 2:1 connects the birth of Jesus to the census of Quirinius, which took place in 6 CE according to Josephus (Wars of the Jews 2.117f., 7.253; Antiquities 17.355, 18.1ff.). Schürer regards this as a chronological error in Luke.

Some have attempted to make a more precise determination of Jesus' birthdate by correlating the magi's star (Matthew 2:2) with astronomical phenomena; however, Matthew 2 describes a miraculous travelling star, which does not fit into known astronomical categories, and such theories have commanded no wide assent.

It would appear that the christers hyjacked perfectly good Pagan holidays and renamed them christmas.

[Branjor]

1. Does anyone really know if Jesus WAS born? n/t

[Marnieworld]

2. I dunno

But that's certainly and angel pictured in your sig line! Sweet doggie!

[Branjor]

5. Thank you so much...

That's my little heart dog, Jordi, 1988 - 2004. He was about the sweetest doggie that ever lived.

[Marnieworld]

8. All dogs are angels

Angels that live with us and then angels that we remember. I'm sure Jordi gave as much as he got.

[Branjor]

18. He gave even more.......n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

49. I'll bet he smelled so GOOD

he just looks like he has that warm doggie shampoo smell. mmmmm

I know you miss him.

[Squatch]

23. Yep. I sure do.

[Johonny]

54. No

There is no historical account of his birth or death.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. Does it matter?

[jonnyblitz]

6. nope, facts don't matter when it comes to religion...

just belief and faith.

[DeepModem Mom]

7. Here we go again, TG. Some seem unaware that some Christians...

or should I have said "Christers," have HEARD about pre-Christian mid-winter festivals dating back ages and ages and ages. I mean, that we actually have that much intelligence, and knowledge of history --

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. If I had to pick a time of the year to celebrate a birth

I would choose the quietness of the solstice. The solstice is a natural event. It didn't belong to the Pagans, alwhough I understand they had some cool parties.

[DeepModem Mom]

11. Beautiful post. nt

[dkofos]

15. It seems to matter to the christers

If you were born on Oct. 3rd would you celebrate your birthday on Dec 25th.??

[DeepModem Mom]

19. I am not a "Christer" any more than a Jew is a "Hebe"...

or a Muslim is a "Towelhead."

[TallahasseeGrannie]

32. I don't think

any Christians believe December 25th is the actual birthdate of Christ. There is absolutely no way of knowing. I was taught as a child in church that nobody knows. We do know the crucifixion because of its relationship to Passover, which is based on the moon.

[ScooterKen]

4. Link inside, explains everything (click)

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/jesus_born.html

:D
:D

[goclark]

13. Thanks for the link, what a blessing no matter what date nt

[Marnieworld]

16. good link man

I'll check that out further later.

[dkofos]

21. Not a definitive year, let alone a definitive date.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. Yes, wasn't there some hanky-panky with the calendar

back during Gregory that messed it all up? I actually have very little idea what I am talking about. Maybe someone can figure it out.

Of course, Herod also plays a part in Christ's death? Was that the same king? Or his son? Or Herod the Lesser or something like that?

[Yupster]

62. I was just scrolling through the list of questions and opened the

one asking "is circumsicion required?"

The skeptics annotated bible puts quotes side by side saying yes and no making it appear like there's a contradiction. If anyone's interested, let me nip this controversy off as painlessly as possible.

Circumcision is part of the contract God made with Abraham. It is required of Jews as God's chosen people. The quotes from the skeptics annotated bible requiring it are naturally from Genesis.

Skip forward a few thousand years.

Jesus has been crucified and risen to heaven. The disciples have spread out among the Middle East gaining followers to the teachings of Christ. They send letters back to Jeruselum and also go back themselves to report on their activities.

There is a recurring problem that is reported.

Many, many Gentiles are becomming "God Fearing Men,"that is men who follow the teachings of Jesus, but many fewer are willing to convert and follow Mosaic Law. So what was so tough about Mosaic Law that would keep people from accepting it by the thousands? Circumcision, that's what.

So, the question was asked over and over. How much of Mosaic Law must a Gentile follow to be a follower of Christ?

Surprisingly, or not surprisingly the question was answered by calling a forml meeting on the subject. Elders and disciples from all over the Middle East were called to Jeruselum and a formal "Council of Jeruselum" was held to address the question.

After much debate and prayer, the Council made its announcement in writing which was spread throughout their world.

This is from Act 15:28-29...

"It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."

Bam. The edict of the Council of Jeruselum is most important for what it doesn't say. It doesn't say a believer must be circumsized.

This edict led to an incredibly fast growth in the church, and it also signaled the break between what is a Jew and what is a Christian. With this written position you now have two separate religions.
_____________________________________________________________________

This is basic Bible 101. The fact that the skeptics bible presents this as a contradiction shows either complete ignorance of the subject they are addressing or a determination to mislead their readers.

Either way, there's not much sense in opening any more of their questions as they are either ignorant or willing to mislead.

[hunter]

68. Okay, I want to be a Christian, but I have to do WHAT??????

Ummmm... no, sorry, not interested.

[Ezlivin]

10. You are right: The old holidays were hijacked by christers

Death by assimilation. Fertility festivals become Easter. Winter Solstice celebration becomes Christ's Mass.

However, Jesus was not born. He was the amalgam of many messianic figures that roved the countryside at the time. That's why you don't have a reference to him by anybody outside the circle of believers; no secular historian mentions Jesus of the NT. (Josephus does, but scholars acknowledge it was a later addition by an unknown hand.)

[DeepModem Mom]

12. If we are to call Christians "Christers," can we call Jews "Hebes,"

and Muslims "Towelheads"?

[dkofos]

22. If you must

[DeepModem Mom]

33. I don't use those terms. Why do you use "Christer"? nt

[dkofos]

39. Actually it was christer (small c )

[DeepModem Mom]

41. Okay, I'm out of this toxic, hateful thread. Have at it. nt

[Ezlivin]

36. As a former christer, I can say it

And what would be wrong with saying "Goder" or "Mohammeder"?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

51. Nothing wrong with it as far as I am concerned

except they are not words in the English language and therefore not grammatically correct. Yet. Maybe you started something. Language is a living thing, always evolving.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

38. What's with the Christer stuff? That's a new one on me

But I guess in our language the "er" and the "ian" are interchangeable.

But you are so fortunate to have an inside track on the real truth. "Jesus was not born. He was the amalgam of many messianic figures..."

It would be great to have that level of certainty about things so long ago! Wow. Awesome!

[Ezlivin]

45. Yeah, a masters degree from seminary tends to do that to you (n/t)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

48. You mean if I go to seminary and get a Master's

I'll learn the Truth?

I'm been searching for the Truth for so long, and it's THERE all along?

Which seminary?

[Ezlivin]

53. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth

Your mileage may vary.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

55. LOL on the mileage! I'll bet!

I'm thinking a Baptist seminary would be concerned that you left there with the firm knowledge/belief that there were "many" messiahs.

Since the Baptists are usually into that whole "one messiah" concept.

At least the ones around here.

[Swamp Rat]

14. Which Jesus?

If it was a popular name 2000 years ago, I imagine there were as many Jesuses back then as there are now. I know a cousin and a neighbor named Jesus. ¡Órale vato! :D

[The Whiskey Priest]

17. Gosh...I am still working on..

If?

[tridim]

20. Jesus?

8 year olds Dude.

[Goblinmonger]

60. Nobody fucks with the Jesus

What a great character. There are rumors that the Cohen brothers are going to do a movie about Jesus pre-Big L.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. You act as if this is some fantastic new discovery, when

it has been common knowledge among educated religious people for centuries.

[dkofos]

26. What common knowledge are you refering to??

[DeepModem Mom]

31. What she says, "common knowledge." nt

[dkofos]

35. It was once common knowledge that the earth was flat, and also

that the earth was the center of the universe.

Is that the "common Knowledge" you speak of??

[DeepModem Mom]

40. You are denying that the existence of pre-Christian mid-winter...

observances is unknown to every Christian on earth?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. That Jesus had to have been born "B.C." because Herod died in

4 B.C. and that the date of Christmas was arbitrarily chosen to replace Saturnalia.

That's the common knowledge I was referring to. I learned it in my Lutheran confirmation class at age 13.

[DeepModem Mom]

29. I'm presuming there is an unawareness here that there ARE educated....

religious people. Once again, we have the ignorance that equates all of religion with the extremists, the fundamentalists, and the nuts, and confirmed atheists as the only enlightened beings among us.

[tx_dem41]

25. Nice Christian-bashing thread (NOTE: Not Fundie-bashing). n/t

[dkofos]

30. Not my intent to bash. Just a question.

[DeepModem Mom]

34. A question that by DU rules belongs in the Religion and Theology forum.

A question that has nothing to do with politics, or the destructive power of the "religious" Right.

[dkofos]

44. This is general discusion. My intent was to start a discussion.

It worked!

[tx_dem41]

42. I wasn't really addressing your OP, which is why I used

the more general reference to "thread", although I do wonder about the "christer" reference.

[Goblinmonger]

61. Oh, please

That's as thick as your skin is? You call this a Christian-bashing thread because someone used the term "christer." And it gets compared to Hebe? Wow. I hesitate to think what would happen if Xians weren't the dominant religion in our country. Just think how much you would be bashed then.

[tx_dem41]

63. Why do you assume I am a Christian?

I am an Atheist. Do you assume that all Atheists must be anti-Christian? You're wrong.

[Goblinmonger]

66. My apologies for an incorrect assumption.

I assumed you were Christian because you so quickly jumped on something that doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. It seemed like a reaction from someone taking offense at something they thought was aimed at them. Again, my apologies.

Do you assume that because someone uses the term "christer" that they are anti-Christian? You are wrong. I don't see how that is anti-christian. "Fucking dumbass christer" Now that would be a different story, but that is not what happened.

[ScooterKen]

28. It would appear that the christers hyjacked perfectly good Pagan holidays

"It would appear that the christers hyjacked perfectly good Pagan holidays and renamed them christmas."

Yes.

Of course.

They did it on purpose. Duh.

:D

[TallahasseeGrannie]

50. Those Pagans

wow...they owned the Soltice!

[thinkingwoman]

72. It's not about owning the solstice

it's about being assimilated and then, all these years later, having "Jesus is the reason for the season" thrown repeatedly in your face. :eyes:

If Xtianity as a whole (not just the educated, kind members) would acknowledge that Jesus wasn't born Dec. 25th and that other holidays celebrated at that time pre-date him anyway, maybe non-xtians could actually enjoy this time of year again.

I personally could not care less when a religion wants to celebrate the birth of their figurehead. I care that I am told I am defiling their time of year when my celebrations are actually older.

I just want to add, TallahasseeGrannie that I normally find your posts thoughtful, sensitive, and illuminating (if not enlightening) but the digs at pagans "owning" solstice were condescending at the very least. Did you mean for them to be?

[MadHound]

37. Most un-biased Biblical scholars put the date somewhere between

6BC and 3AD, and generally have the original birthdate as being in the early spring, generally March, due to the fact that it is March when lambs were born(which were mentioned in the gospels).

The date was moved back to Dec. 25 by early Christians in order to make their new found religion more palatable to those who worshiped Sol Invictus and Mithras, who both had holy days on Dec 25.

[dkofos]

46. So there you have it.

JC not born in Dec.

So why should we only think of christ on Dec. 25th??

[TallahasseeGrannie]

52. If you are a Christian

you think of Christ every day. But you commemorate special events in his life throughout the year. It is called the Seasons of the liturgical year and it provides a framework for some Christians and their spiritual life. For example, right now, Advent, some Christians use the time to prepare for the coming of Christ into their lives. Of course, this ia a metaphor. It is done through fasting, special prayer and ritual. In my family we light an Advent wreath and say traditional prayers. There is also traditional music. One in particular I love is by Bach, entitled "Break Forth of Beauteous Heavenly Light" and it is from his Christmas Oratorio.

So celebrating Christmas on the 25th is kind of like celebrating Thanksgiving or Labor Day. No particular reason for the actual date, other than you pick a date to commemorate. Same with Mother's Day, etc.

Same with the Orange Bowl. (Where the Seminoles will bash Penn State)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

47. I, for one, am glad they chose December

because face it, it's a bummer month otherwise.

I never thought of the lamb connection! But that is sure correct, because I raise goats and the kids are born anywhere from Feb to May. A young sheep would no longer be a lamb by December.

Now here is a question. Does it ever snow in Bethlehem?? I always wondered. My favorite Christmas Carol is:



In the bleak midwinter, frosty wind made moan,
Earth stood hard as iron, water like a stone;
Snow had fallen, snow on snow, snow on snow,
In the bleak midwinter, long ago.

Our God, Heaven cannot hold Him, nor earth sustain;
Heaven and earth shall flee away when He comes to reign.
In the bleak midwinter a stable place sufficed
The Lord God Almighty, Jesus Christ.

Enough for Him, Whom cherubim, worship night and day,
Breastful of milk, and a mangerful of hay;
Enough for Him, Whom angels fall before,
The ox and ass and camel which adore.

Angels and archangels may have gathered there,
Cherubim and seraphim thronged the air;
But His mother only, in her maiden bliss,
Worshipped the beloved with a kiss.

What can I give Him, poor as I am?
If I were a shepherd, I would bring a lamb;
If I were a Wise Man, I would do my part;
Yet what I can I give Him: give my heart.

[Cha]

58. I had always heard Jesus

was a Pisces.

[AzDar]

56. Until the bureaucratically-inspired change by Constantine in the

fifth century c.e.,Jesus' birthday was celebrated by early Christians (or is it Christers?)on January 6. The savvy Emperor
consolidated the birthday of Jeebus, and the Pagan celebration of the Return of Sol Invictus on Dec. 25th, to only have one
'State-sponsored' holiday, thus appeasing two of the largest factions of his widely-varied Empire.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

57. Ah! So THAT's where the 12 Days of Christmas came in

[tjwmason]

64. Not quite.

Major feasts in the kalendar are extended over a number of days, in most cases (e.g. the Assumption of Our Lady) this is a simple week (called an octave) - however the Christmas season went on for longer. 6 January is the feast of the Epiphany (arrival of the 3 Magi), and that now closes the Christmas celebrations. In former times Christmas went on until 2 February (Purification of Our Lady and Presentation of Christ in the Temple).

This is made a tad more confusing because most Orthodox churches keep Christmas by the Julian calendar rather than the Gregorian which thus puts 25th December on what we think of as 7 January - as the celebrations begin on the evening before (hang over from Judaism) they're just starting Christmas as we end it. :eyes:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

59. Good to see this placed in the right forum

It is an interesting thread.

TG (Christer)

[tjwmason]

65. No they don't, and it would only be of scholarly interest as well.

We don't know when Our Lady was assumed - but we happily celebrate that on 15 August. We don't know when she was born - but the feast of her Nativity is 8 September. We've got no idea when St. John the Baptist was born or died - but both are given liturgical commemoration. So too Ss. Peter and Paul - tradition holds that they were martyred on the same day, but it probably was not 29 June where it is now commemorated.

I know of nobody sane who has ever pretended that 25 December was the actual literal date of Christ's birth.

[Bloodblister Bob]

67. Jesus, Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy born on same day. nt

[Perky]

69. Generally conceded to be

in the spring of BC 04

Baseed largely on what is known abouth the Roman census

[TechBear_Seattle]

70. It is impossible to say

Pick any three time markers associated with Jesus' birth (the reign of Caesar Augustus, the governorship of Quirinius in Syria, the kingship of Herod the Great, an imperial census in Palestine, the season when flocks were out in the fields rather than safe in barns close to home, a celestial event of sufficient magnitude and length that a caravan of astrologers, presumably from Persia, had time to travel to Jerusalem) and you find a disjoin. Out of the six time markers, you will find that no three of them coincide.

[handsignals4theblind]

71. - It will shock you to know--SEpt 11th-3BC was Jesus birth

--


You don't expect me to elaborate and write on that one do you?

There is evidence to indicate as such but it is the work of an obsessive of the Occult------PM me if you want to hear his files of that show?