Please stop calling me a liar (or, why atheism is not a religion)!

[Zhade]

Again, the ludicrous argument that "atheism is a religion" is being thrown around by some angry with atheists who stand up for the separation of church and state, and it appears clear to me that something is not getting through to some people here.

Rather than arguing the fact that a lack of belief is not itself a belief (I'm not interested in knocking down more Orwellian 'lack of belief really is belief that god doesn't exist' strawmen), I'm going to approach it from another angle, in the eternal hope that at least a couple of you out there - you know, those who aren't either just trolls or assholes eager to piss people off - will finally get what many of us are saying: atheism is not a religious belief system.

Do you know why saying it is pisses us off so much? Because, when I say "I'm an atheist because I don't believe in god, as there is no evidence of any such beings" and someone says "you believe there's no god", and I correct them only to be 'corrected' myself, at that point I am being called a liar.

See, if I SAY "I don't believe in god, it's not that I believe there is no god - I can't possibly know all the information in the universe, but what I do know shows no such evidence", that means exactly what I said. To be told it's NOT what I mean, or what I am, is to say I am lying about my lack of belief in god.

It's terrifically insulting, to ANYONE, to be told you're lying when you honestly answer a question.

THAT is why it angers us. Because it's an attack on one's credibility. To be told, say, that you 'secretly and arrogantly just believe there is no god' (yes, I've been told this before) is to be accused of holding a position you don't.

I'm not lying about my lack of belief in god. It's be nice if some here would stop accusing me otherwise.

Hope that makes some sense.

[Erika]

1. Just let it be a source of entertainment to you.

It's far easier to go that route and simply ask them to prove there is a God. Then it truly becomes entertaining when they try to promote theocracy in government.

[Zhade]

2. It's not any fun - most of them won't play.

You point out that there's no evidence, and their argument is "uh huh, yes there is, I FELT it!"

Not exactly objective evidence.

[papau]

53. 'lack of belief really is belief that god doesn't exist' - :-)

That is not the Agnostic position - lack of belief that asserts nothing about the existence of God is the agnostic position -"it's not that I believe there is no god" -so we would have agreement if we stopped right here!

But no - we add to the "it's not that I believe there is no god" - "there is no God" and we are into an interesting - perhaps religious - discussion.

But I am curious as to why the need to justify your religion? I - we- all accept each others religion. Only the "atheist" must post night after night the unprovable dogma of his religion - saying "there is no God" - in every religious forum on the net - calling the act "engaging" the other side so as to "help" them. Sounds rather evangelical - even fundie - eh? There are near 15,000 posts in the Atheists and Agnostics Group - but I guess since that is less than the near 40,000 in this forum means some Atheists and Agnostics feel a need to either be close to the religious or to have a wider audience- interesting.... :-) One would think Atheists and Agnostics would feel better - - if they do not feel spiritual -to not post in the religious forum (DU administration does call this forum Religion/Theology, and calls the super group "Ethnicity, Religion & Atheism" where the Atheists and Agnostics Group can be found). But it appears this version of the atheist religion calls adherents to go knocking on doors - quite similar to missionaries - eh? :-) A bit like posting night after night in the gay forum about how hetero is the only correct way.

In any case no one is calling anyone a liar - I report what I see and use honest words - words that describe what I see in the English I understand. Some Atheists say I am not seeing the whole picture or the correct picture or am using words with the wrong tone. I do not think I am. But that is a difference of opinion. No one is calling anyone a liar.

But you do imply that that those that disagree (with you) on the words to describe what they believe they see you asserting are either "trolls or assholes eager to piss people off"?

You claim the right to "correct" folks as to what, in their opinion, they see you asserting.

I hate it when fundi's claim the right to tell me what I think. I would think you would feel the same way.

When you say (without the "I don't believe in god") "..., it's not that I believe there is no god - I can't possibly know all the information in the universe, but what I do know shows no such evidence", you are saying what in my vocabulary is defined as the Agnostic position. You then define it with an atheist position, "I don't believe in god". OK - if those are the words you feel best describes your thought you most surely have a right to assert that and indeed in those words. But if I am of the opinion their are better words to describe what you assert, I am free to express that opinion.

No one is attacking your credibility - and indeed an "agnostic position" is indeed a position with no religious overtones, but you affirm "I don't believe in god" and you affirm "I (do not) believe there is no god".

No one is accusing you of anything.

On many atheist forums that I have been on, your "agnostic"/"atheist" blended belief would just be accepted with a nod of the head. But then that is rather like preaching to the choir, isn't.

In any case, perhaps we can just agree that one "can't possibly know all the information in the universe" and let it go?

But I suspect that some atheist posters really can't let it go - can't allow for different opinions on something so defining of their soul. They need converts!

I do not mean to hijack your thread, so I'll just post this and back out - it is interesting!

:-)

[beam me up scottie]

57. "Hijack" Zhade's thread?

More like put it to sleep.

I could set my watch by your tired old rantings.

Guess what?

You can say it a thousand more times and it still won't be true.

But, hey, we all need a hobby.

Yours seems to be trying to keep doubt from creeping into your front parlor.

Unfortunately, doubt is usually accompanied by logic.

Atheists and confident believers fear neither.

[atre]

3. According to the Supreme Court, atheism is the equivalent of a religion

...for the purposes of the Establishment Clause. Government can no more establish atheism as official orthodoxy than it can Christianity.

I have no knowledge of the context of this discussion, but those are my two cents.

[Hissyspit]

5. An equivalent of religion, but not religion itself.

Atheism does not really fit any standard definition of religion. It may share some characteristics as far as being concerned with values and such, and, of course, you can always argue the meaning of the word religion, but the many dictionary definitions I have seen would not fit atheism. These definitions include such things as accepted standards for behavior, belief in supernatural beings, recorded doctrine, worship and committment to charismatic leaders, etc.
Atheism doesn't include any of those.

[Bill McBlueState]

32. which decision was this?

I tend to get the SC's church and state decisions confused. What year was this handed down?

[Hissyspit]

4. My favorite: I got into with family who said that the fact that most

people in the world seem to have a need to believe in a God or superior power is the best evidence that a God or superior power does exist.
"No, that's not evidence," I said.
"Yes, it is," they all argued.
"No, it's not." I said back. "It could EASILY be and most likely is a psycho-social extension of the parent-offspring relationship. It's not evidence at all."

[trotsky]

12. There's an amazingly large group of people

who consider that to be perfectly valid evidence. Many have even voiced it here on DU. Sad, how critical thinking is in even shorter supply than compassionate conservatism.

[Strong Atheist]

42. And at times and places, most

people "knew" that the Earth was flat (you would fall off the edge if you traveled far enough, don'tcha know), or that heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects. In fact, that second one is one that people still get wrong; the "intuitive" position on weight and falling has to be shown to be wrong.

In logic, this is a logical fallacy (arguing from "everyone" "knowing" something; I forget the word for the fallacy ... something about argument from majority?).

[hunter]

43. What do you know? A rock falls faster than a feather.

Anyone can see that.

And that's the problem we have to deal with. There are many simple explanations that are simply wrong.

The answer "God did it," works for the Creationists, and it works for the Intelligent Design people, but it is certainly the wrong answer.

[Zebedeo]

153. Argumentum ad populum works both ways

Atheists have argued that the fact that a majority of scientists have a certain belief means that the belief is true. It doesn't.

[Nomad559]

6. If Atheism Is A Religion

Then baldness must be a hair color

:evilgrin:

[Union Thug]

7. They are the ones making claims that something is there.

You are simply saying that it is not. The burden of proof is on the fantasy-worlders.

Your fellow atheist - U.T.

[Solly Mack]

8. Don't ever expect to reason with anyone that can define "proof" of a God

as anything they want it to be:

Some people use anything and everything as "proof" of God: flowers, trees, a still small voice they hear in their head, the birth of a child, the stranger who stops to help them fix a flat, the neighbor who made them dinner,the weather changed, the tornado missed them,they didn't wreck, they did wreck but weren't hurt,it rained, it didn't rain,the crops didn't fail, the crops did fail but we struck oil,the surgery went well, the surgery didn't go well but she's in God's house now,they got the job, they got the promotion, their kid swallowed poison but they got him to the hospital in time,they fell down but didn't get hurt,they passed the driver's test,they got a bike for their birthday - just whatever.

That kind of arbitrary "proof" isn't proof at all.

And you can't reason with anyone that claims faith is proof.

They might have faith that those things are a sign of a God - but they got no proof. Yet they still define those things a proof.

It's like the misuse of the word theory - people say they have a theory when they really mean they have an assertion, a claim,a hypothesis...so now we've got a bunch of folks deriding the theory of evolution as if it's nothing more than an assertion. All because they don't understand the difference between the word assertion and the word theory. Well, some people have a hard time grasping the concept of "proof", since they assign "proof" so arbitrarily. What they take on faith, they call proof.

So when you say there is no proof of God - they don't "hear" what you're actually saying, since they don't define "proof" in the same way. Never mind that there is a reasonable standard of proof that has nothing whatsoever to do with faith.

See it's all about faith for them - so it just has to be about faith for you. And saying there is no proof won't change their thinking since they see faith and proof the same. You're saying "no proof" and they're hearing "no faith in the proof(trees, flowers,childbirth,etc)"

At least that's been my experience with a lot of religious people.

[shenmue]

9. Makes sense to me

:7

[Meldread]

10. I had the same problem, but I disagree with you... kinda sorta.

Atheism in and of itself *is* a belief that there is no God. It does not have a belief system or a set of rules like a religion, but it is in and of itself a belief saying: "I do not believe there is a God." In the same way a Christian might say: "I believe there is a God."

HOWEVER, there is Agnosticism which you might consider "atheist lite". I consider myself an Agnostic/Atheist and it sounds like you are agnostic as well by definition. An agnostic is classified as:

a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

It is, to me, saying "based on all the evidence I have seen, I have to doubt the existence of a God, but at the same time I must acknowledge that I do not know everything there is to know."

Atheism is, by definition classified as:

a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

Hopefully that helps.

[Zhade]

22. Sorry, that's not true.

Strong atheism, yes. Not all forms of atheism, however.

For the record, I am an agnostic atheist.

[Meldread]

34. I agree.

Yes, the word atheist has become much more encompassing to include all who lack a belief in god or gods, but by the strictest definition not everyone can be included under that banner. Thus my post, and my follow up post #33.

[BurtWorm]

25. That's not a good definition for atheism.

Agnosticism, the way a lot of self-described agnostics describe it, seems more "religious" in being a system or doctrine of belief. Atheism is simply disbelief.

Do you believe in the Loch Ness monster? Maybe you do. But if you don't, are you denying there's a Loch Ness monster? Do you subscribe to the doctrine that there is no Loch Ness monster?

[Meldread]

33. I am simply going by the definition.

If we are going to use the English language then it is best that we ensure that we are clear on what we are talking about.

Take a look at this definition:
Agnostic atheism—the view that God may or may not exist, but that his non-existence is more likely. Some agnostic atheists would at least partially base their beliefs on Occam's Razor.

Simply saying you are something does not make it so. A Christian may profess Christian beliefs and yet at the same time not be a true Christian, it therefore stands to reason that someone who professes to be an Atheist may not be an Atheist by the strictest definition.

It is true that the term Atheist has become broader and more encompassing, to encompass all who "lack belief in a god or gods", though by the strictest definition an Atheist "openly rejects theism, openly rejects the notion that there is a god or gods".

Therefore, that is why I am stating that the correct term is "Agnostic atheist", the belief that God may or may not exist, but that his non-existence is more likely as that is the belief of the original poster as stated by the original poster.

It was not my intent to insult, but rather to correctly apply the correct definition to the belief, and to point out that an Atheist by the very strictest terms is the equivalent of a theist but only on the opposing side.

[BurtWorm]

38. If you want to go by wikipedia's definition, then:

<<Atheism, in its broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This definition includes as atheists both those who assert that there are no gods, and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not. Narrower definitions, however, often only qualify those who actively disbelieve as atheists, labeling the others as nontheists or agnostics.

<<Although atheists often share common concerns regarding evidence and the scientific method of investigation and a large number are skeptics, there is no single ideology that all atheists share. Additionally there are atheists who are religious or spiritual, though many of these would not describe themselves as atheists.>>

Considering the Siegenthaler affair, it's probably wise to be wary of wikipedia as an absolutely reliable authority. But this definition at least reflects the elasticity of the word "atheism" as it's actually used.

[InaneAnanity]

30. thats an insult

This kind of thinking is just insulting.

I don't believe in the existence of unicorns. I KNOW that they don't exist, in any form, on earth. I would never say "I don't believe in unicorns," I say "I know unicorns don't exist."

Using the term "belief" implies some form of credibility. I have no desire to imply that when discussing something as ridiculous as god.

[Meldread]

35. Is it insulting?

My intent was not to insult but to state a clear fact. To say "I know unicorns don't exist" is the equivalent, but direct opposite, of saying "I know unicorns do exist". However, there is the belief of non-existence while at the same time rationalizing that you may be incorrect by saying, "based on all the evidence and my personal experience I do not believe unicorns exist".

In the last statement you are not saying with absolute certainty that unicorns don't exist, simply that the lack of evidence and your personal experiences points to the unlikelihood of their existence.

Yes, there is a difference between the two. See my post #33.

[Strong Atheist]

11. Except me!

I positively state that there is no god(s), the same way that I state that the Earth is not flat, or that there are no animals living on the sun.

[hunter]

17. I can imagine some sort of animal living in the sun...

...some sort of creature composed of sun stuff.

It seems to me that animals made out of meat -- animals like us that are made mostly of earth atmosphere stuff -- are not any more likely than creatures made out of solar atmosphere stuff.

The earth is a ball, it is not flat, you are right about that. But we don't know anything about any animals that may or may not live in the sun. That's an open question, without asnswers.

There are many questions like that.

I'll surprise you now, and leave the gods out of that argument. Many people are rightfully hostile towards the great damages done by humans who claim to be following some god.

[Strong Atheist]

19. My point was

(as I have explained in other threads elsewhere) that if something approaches certainty of being true or false, I go ahead and say that I KNOW it to be true or false. Don't we all? I mean, I can say that I KNOW there are no gods the same way that you can say that you KNOW there are; what is the difference?

[Zhade]

23. Obviously, I disagree that you could know that for certain.

But then, your name addresses our different flavors of atheism, and I would never attempt to tell you that what you think about yourself is wrong.

[Strong Atheist]

36. Why not know for certain?

Lots of people "know" lots of things for certain, why can't this be one of those things?

[greyl]

37. For the humility of a critical thinker in summer.

There are degrees of rational certainty, just like there are degrees of having faith. Most of us would agree that we know the sun will rise tomorrow but when pressed, most of us may agree that we can't be absolutely certain that it will. (far from a perfect analogy ;))
It feels good and brave to make a logical leap of faith and assert something with confidence, but it's a gamble nonetheless. Especially when you're dealing with certainty of many negative propositions.
Can you show us where the information is in the universe that proves with absolute certainty that there are no gods?

[Strong Atheist]

40. I like your analogy; it is very good!

I am as certain that there are no gods as I am that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow!

[Zhade]

45. Well, for me, it's because I'm not all-knowing.

There might be a being somewhere in the unexplored reaches of space-time that fits the description of a god. Since I can't possibly explore every corner of this limitless universe, I can't really say that there are no "gods" for certain.

But I do conclude that, due to the utter lack of evidence for any that mankind has come up with, it is highly probable that there are no gods as claimed by humans. I would, of course, reexamine that conclusion if actual evidence came forth.

In thousands of years, it never has.

[Strong Atheist]

48. As I said in other threads,

I do not go with this wishy-washy "I'll NEVER have enough evidence so I will never make strong, positive statements of fact" stuff. I can not say that the sun rises in the East, because it might not some day, as a poster in another thread said?:wtf: If something approaches certainty, that is good enough for me me to state that it is true (or false if it approaches falsehood certainty). I will make strong statements that things are facts or not facts, it is up to those who disagree to PROVE me wrong.

[Midwest_Doc]

13. Not Collecting Stamps is a Hobby! n/t

[Zhade]

24. A very inexpensive one, at that!

:D

[TallahasseeGrannie]

14. Oh you know you believe in God. You just won't admit it.

Okay, just kidding.

Obviously, atheism isn't a religion because you can't tithe to it. And there aren't any hymns and stuff.

But I would say, just to split hairs, that it represents a belief system. If, say, "belief" is a continuum line from "no belief at all" all the way up to "I am God" I would assume atheism is over there on the left, and as it becomes agnosticism (is that a word?) it nudges to the left.

To me, if you have an opinion you have a belief system.

I'm not an atheist but I like most of the atheists I know because they believe this is the only shot they get and they set out to make the most of it. We Christians kind of hold what we think is an Ace in our pocket and figure we can make it all right some other day, in heaven.

But it's all just words.

[Strong Atheist]

15. I have no problem with belief system.

Of course, after getting past the "do you all exist stage", I call it KNOWING, but, I am not at all put out by people calling it a belief...

[Orrex]

18. The proposed continuum is faulty

Since the continuum represents "belief," and since there is no way (by your formulation) to exist without some measure of "belief," then the continuum-as-proposed simply begs the question. You might as well say "according to me, you believe whether you accept it or not."

Additionally, the continuum is a non sequitur, because you require it to incorporate its incompatible opposite, non-belief.

Unless "belief" can incorporate that incompatible opposite, then the continuum is not representative of reality. And if "belief" can incorporate non-belief (ie., "non-belief" is a "belief" after all), then you've accomplished nothing other than the broadening of the definition of belief to the point of irrelevant dilution.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. My brain just exploded

and when I sweep it up I'll tell you if you are right.


Yeah, you are.

I do that all the time, you know... broadening things to the point of irrelevant dilution. I'm working on that.

[Zhade]

27. Indeed.

Very good post.

[Zhade]

26. But it's NOT just words.

When a believer tells me I have a "belief system" - where it is clear that this entails my lack of belief being 'on faith that there is no god' (which is NOT what I believe) - I am being told I believe something I don't.

It's as disrespectful as an atheist telling, say, a Catholic believer in transubstitution* that they believe in ritual cannibalism. It's inaccurate and not what the person believes.

I don't have a belief system with regards to atheism, because lacking a belief in gods is no more a system than lacking a belief in Lucky the Leprechaun is a system.

(*this assumes I named the correct version, which teaches the belief that the wafer/wine are substitutes for Jesus and not his literal flesh and blood.)

[Goblinmonger]

41. Though I hesitate to open this can of worms

But the Roman Catholic belief is that the eucharist results in transubstantiation. The bread and wine ACTUALLY BECOME the body and blood of christ. They are not metaphors, they are not substitutes, they are not representatives, they are physically flesh and blood.

Before you pounce on the atheist, I spent 3 years in a Catholic seminary; that is where I get my information on this.

[Zhade]

44. This atheist obviously won't pounce on you.

I'd wondered if I'd gotten the term wrong - but I do seem to recall there are Catholics who believe it to be symbolic, not literal?

[Goblinmonger]

47. They are called episcapols

The church is pretty clear on the transubstantiation bit. If somebody says they don't believe it, they are technically not Catholic because they are not following the rules of the church (take communion at least once during easter I can remember where my road to atheism (albeit a long road) started. In grade school (about 8 years old) I heard the transubstantiation theory and called bullshit in my mind. Even before I knew what a metaphor was, I knew the "this is my body" was metaphoric.

[salvorhardin]

31. No, atheism does not presume any beliefs

A belief system is the set of all beliefs held by an individual or a group. Atheism is not a belief system.

I've recently taken to using set theory to explain this. The first error in reasoning that most people make is to conflate beliefs with believers. Those are two different sets. Any individual belief belongs to the set of all possible beliefs. Any individual believer holds a subset of beliefs from the set of all possible beliefs.

Some beliefs concern themselves with the existence of at least one god. We call this subset the set of theistic beliefs.

All other beliefs must then be considered atheistic beliefs since they do not concern themselves with the belief in at least one god. My belief that peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are better when the bread is lightly toasted is an atheistic belief because it says nothing about the existence of at least one god. Similarly, my friend's belief that Gentle Giant is the best band of the twentieth century is also an atheistic belief since it doesn't have anything to say about the existence of at least one god.

A theist is a believer that holds any number of atheistic beliefs plus any number greater than zero of theistic beliefs; i.e. a theist may believe in the superior qualities of toasted peanut butter and jelly sandwiches but also believes in the existence of at least one god.

An atheist is simply a believer that whose personal subset of beliefs just doesn't happen to include any beliefs from the theistic set. Atheist just happens to be a label, a shortcut, to indicate this. As many here have said, it is the default position. Theism requires adding one or more beliefs in at least one god to a believer's individual set of beliefs.

As such, it is impossible to say anything about an atheist based simply on the label alone other than their personal set of beliefs is absent any beliefs from the theistic set. Similarly it is impossible to say anything about an individual theist based solely on the label other than they believe in the existence of at least one god in addition to any number of atheistic beliefs.

You see, there is no organized set of beliefs that one can call 'atheistic' since it includes anything and everything except for the belief in at least one god. There is not a system of beliefs that can be called atheism.

Note: I should have labeled the following graphic with 'atheistic' and 'theistic' rather than 'atheists' and 'theists'. In drawing it I made the same error I talked about earlier of conflating beliefs with believers. But, I drew this several weeks ago and I'm lazy so here it is anyway.

On edit: I am saying the same thing as Orrex and Zhade, just with more words and a pretty picture. :-)

[Orrex]

16. Saying that atheism is not a religion, is a religion

I've had this discussion with serious, intelligent people, and they just can't figure out why "non-belief in X" is not the same as "belief in not-X."

It drives me mad, so I guess I'm saying that I feel your pain.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. I remember all this from

Philosophy 101 and it gave me a headache then, too.

Logic has never been my forte'.

[Zhade]

28. You'd think it would make sense when you use non-god examples.

I mean, not believing that the existence of Bigfoot has been proven is not the same thing as saying "Bigfoot has been proven not to exist", right? It just means there's no convincing evidence, and thus no reason to believe such a creature exists.

Likewise, not believing in the existence of the Coelacanth used to be quite reasonable - there was no evidence they were still around, until that fisherman hauled one out of the briny deep. Once that happened, there was concrete evidence, and the a-Coelacanthists pretty much had to agree that it exists.

When actual objective evidence for gods arises, we atheists will logically reconsider our lack of belief. Until then, there is no reason to believe in unproven gods.

I really wish I knew what was so hard to understand about that position.

[arwalden]

29. Surely You Do Realize That Those Folks DO NOT CARE What You Think.

It's obvious to me that their goal is to insult. Why they are permitted to continue to post such tripe is beyond my comprehension.

[hunter]

39. Obviously "Those Folks" DO CARE What you think.

Otherwise they wouldn't bother to be insulting.

Or was that your point? (Sometimes I can be very clueless.)

[Zhade]

46. You both have great points.

But I still (foolishly?) think a few might understand what I'm saying, if it's phrased in a different way.

Hey, call me a goodwill ambassador. :D

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

51. I don't like to let a wrong argument go unresponded,

lest it be assumed right by the onlookers.

In Brazil we have a saying, "Quem cala consente" -- whoever stays silent, consents.

[frankly_fedup2]

49. Have you read anything regarding gnostic Christianity? It's

different belief's, similar stories, but includes "supposedly" the lost books of the Bible (better known as the edited version by the Roman Catholic Church at their discretion only).

It won't prove one way or another; however, it is thought provoking and great for discussion.

[manic expression]

50. But

you are overreacting. You do believe something. You can't get around that fact.

Saying you believe in something is simply stating the fact that you do have beliefs. I'm not saying you are a liar or that you are lying at all.

What you said made sense, and I hope what I said makes as much sense.

[Zhade]

54. Once again: a lack of belief is not a belief.

NT!

[manic expression]

55. Once again

atheists do have beliefs on the topic of divinity. People who aren't political still have opinions that are a part of the political spectrum: namely, that politics don't matter.

[InaneAnanity]

58. So I guess, according to you

Everyone has a belief system about unicorns, or about minotaurs, or about anything else that can be affirmatively stated to not exist, never have existed, and never will existin the future.

[manic expression]

59. Don't guess

If someone has never heard of a minotaur, they can scarcely believe in it. They can also scarcely not believe in it. Whatever their beliefs on mythical figures, if it does not include minotaurs, their beliefs are non-minotaur (or whatever you want to call it).

[WhollyHeretic]

67. In what way does this respond to his post?

Just because someone imagined something doesn't give it any sort of validity. Why should someone even give any credence to the existence of faeries since there is no proof whatsoever. There has to be some tiny scrap of evidence or logic to at least begin the debate of something being real.

[manic expression]

71. I'll leave that for you to figure out

I assume that you do not believe in faeries. However, you then believe that faeries do not exist. This isn't about evidence of divinity, it's about what a certain group believes.

[InaneAnanity]

72. No

I KNOW faeries don't exist. Same with god.

I don't believe anything.

[manic expression]

73. I believe you do

You believe that faeries do not exist. That is a correct statement.

If you agree with the premise of evolution, you believe evolution is a fact.

I fail to see how those statements are incorrect.

[InaneAnanity]

75. Bad Logic

Yes, I believe evolution to be correct. There is evidence in the affirmative of evolution being how living things develop on this planet.

There is no evidence, affirmative or otherwise, about faeries. So, I don't believe anything. I KNOW they don't exist.

Same with god.

[manic expression]

77. Evidence is inconsequential

You believe evolution to be correct. Period.

You believe that faeries do not exist. Period. The factors which led you to these conclusions has no bearing.

[InaneAnanity]

79. I know

I know that evidence is inconsequential to you. You believe in god.

I, however, need evidence to believe anything, no matter the topic. As such, I don't have a belief system about faeries, or fire-breathing dragons, or unicorns, or minotaurs, or god. I know they don't exist.

[manic expression]

83. You believe

I believe in divinity, and there is evidence for it. You are most likely quite familiar with my arguments on that topic, so let's not get into that, shall we?

You do have beliefs on faeries, fire-breathing dragons, unicorns, minotaurs and god. You believe that all of them do not exist. That is belief.

On a tangent, a lot of credible people "knew" a lot of things that are now known to be false. Science, more than any other field, is where yesterday's heresies are tomorrow's truths.

[InaneAnanity]

85. Ok then

Let me know when you find evidence that god exists.

Until then, I know there are no gods.

[manic expression]

91. Good job

skipping over all of my points.

It's not about evidence, because even when there is evidence, belief plays a role. In this subject, there is no evidence either way (for all practical purposes), so belief is definitely playing a role.

I also said we shouldn't go down the path of debating the existence of divinity. Why did you blatantly ignore this request?

[InaneAnanity]

95. Its ALL about evidence

Your world is flat example is a bad one, because there is clearly evidence AGAINST that being the case.

Concerning god, there is no evidence one way or another. I agree with you on that.

To believe a god or gods exist, you have a belief system. You are believing they exist even though there is no evidence in the affirmative.

To NOT believe in god, it is entirely different. I am simply saying there is no evidence at all, so I don't have a belief.

To you, we all have a belief system in minotaurs, faeries, fire-breathing dragons. If you want to think that way, that's fine, but most people will think you are nuts.

I don't have a belief system in anything without evidence, one way or another.

[manic expression]

99. No, it's not

It's not a bad example, because it illustrates the fact that even when there is IRREFUTABLE evidence, belief still plays a role.

To believe that god does not exist is part of a belief system.

A belief system simply means a way of looking at something. You look at those mythical figures in a certain way. That is what I am getting at.

You do have a belief system, since your views constitute a belief on a certain topic.

[InaneAnanity]

101. I don't have a way of looking at the concept of god

Since there is no evidence, I don't look at all. I simply accept that there isn't a god, and move on.

You really are desperate to show that we all have a belief, aren't you?? I wonder why...

[manic expression]

102. However,

you have a way of looking at the concept since you accept what you believe, and move on.

Here come the claims of ulterior motive. What'll it be this time?

[InaneAnanity]

104. Switcheroo

You say I accept what I believe. That's not what I said.

So you are going to insert words into my sentences now to try and prove your unprovable point??

[manic expression]

107. I was making a little point

I'm glad you caught on it. You do accept what you believe, primarily because you do not know either way.

[InaneAnanity]

110. Don't know??

Of course I know!! I KNOW THERE IS NO GOD!!!

Stop putting words into my mouth. Just end it, and go back to believing what makes you happy.

[manic expression]

112. You are believing what makes you happy

Good night.

[InaneAnanity]

113. No

I'm just accepting the obvious.

[manic expression]

116. Or so you believe....

I'm tired. Good night.

[InaneAnanity]

118. Nope

We can keep running in circles all night if you want.

[manic expression]

121. Yes, actually

you have beliefs. The sooner you accept that, the better.

[InaneAnanity]

122. Running in circles

Of course I have beliefs. Just not regarding god.

[manic expression]

124. Going nowhere......

You do have beliefs that regard god. To disagree is like saying fasting is not a regimen that regards food.

[InaneAnanity]

126. Bad analogy

As usual.

[manic expression]

127. And, as usual, no support for you claims

care to amount an argument?

[InaneAnanity]

129. No, I don't

Because you are telling me I am wrong in how I think.

There is nothing to argue about. I know how I think. I am right, you are wrong.

[manic expression]

132. You didn't refute my example

or my arguments.

There is nothing to argue about because you are playing hear-no-evil.

[InaneAnanity]

134. You haven't offered..

..a reasonable example.

You purport to know how I think better than I do. That is just insulting.

Congratulations, you have achieved your goal of insulting me.

Can we move on now?

[manic expression]

138. Yes I have

"To disagree is like saying fasting is not a regimen that regards food."

How do you respond?

"Bad analogy. As usual."

........crickets........

No support, no logic explained (or present, for that matter). I know that you are mistaken when it comes to this subject, and this discourse (or lack thereof) has only shown me to be correct.

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

140. Great

You aren't getting the last word here, so lets just keep up this meaningless, pointless discourse about who knows how I think better, me or you.

[manic expression]

146. The pointless discourse

has been coming from you this entire time.

You have not addressed my arguments. I do think it is because you cannot do so.

[InaneAnanity]

147. Correctomundo

That's because your arguments aren't rational. They are irrational, based on literature, and your own preconcieved notions about religion, and nothing more.

There is nothing I can do to change your mind, so I'm not even going to try.

[manic expression]

151. You haven't tried as of yet

so "I'm not even going to try" is the same as what you've been doing this entire "discussion".

You continue to ignore my arguments, especially in regards to literature.

Literature connects with our lives (if it is good), as authors inject experiences, wisdom and parallel our world into their fiction.

I also find it funny that Shakespeare was the most minor of my arguments, being in parenthesis, as an afterthought. Even though you still obsess over this, you cannot mount a real argument against it.

[InaneAnanity]

152. Again

I'm not going to try to.

You can live in your fantasy world and have fun with it. I'm not going to try and debate you though, knowing that we aren't on a level playing field.

I deal in rationality.

[manic expression]

158. You deal in delusion

For someone who spouts the praises of proof, you have offered no proof for me. I must conclude that I am correct.

[InaneAnanity]

161. Congratulations on that

Now, in the future, engage in your self-congratulating in private.

[manic expression]

165. Please see post #164. Thank you. n/t

[InaneAnanity]

166. Nah

[manic expression]

408. No

You have a belief on the thought that the world is flat. You believe it is wrong. So do I. That happens to be correct.

We do all have belief systems on minotaurs or what have you. You think they do not exist, and that constitutes a belief about them.

[InaneAnanity]

409. Great

[manic expression]

400. Again

Evidence is inconsequential. You have beliefs on anything, even if you don't believe IN them.

[InaneAnanity]

405. Great

[manic expression]

No, you don't

because the evidence is there.

Furthermore, you still have beliefs on all of those things you mentioned. Due to your thoughts on them, you have beliefs on them.

[InaneAnanity]

407. Great

[manic expression]

401. It doesn't matter

you have beliefs on faeries, and the topic of divinity.

[InaneAnanity]

404. Great

[WhollyHeretic]

76. No it's about whatever fairy tales you believe in

I don't have to believe anything thing about them until someone comes up with a tiny shred of evidence that shows it's even a valid concept. You really have no concept of reality. Just because someone imagines something doesn't prove anything or have any affect on reality.

[manic expression]

80. Your views

have about the same validity as the fairy tales you detest.

You believe that fairy tales are invalid. Is that a correct statement? That is what this topic is about. Something doesn't need evidence for someone to have a belief on the subject. You have beliefs. Period.

For all of your rhetoric on concepts of reality, your arguments are perhaps the most misled.

[InaneAnanity]

81. How can you have beliefs without evidence of any sort??

[manic expression]

84. How about this

"I believe the Earth is not flat". There is no evidence for a flat Earth, and there is evidence proving the opposite, but belief STILL is in play here.

[InaneAnanity]

86. no

I KNOW the Earth is not flat.

[manic expression]

88. well,

you also believe that the Earth is not flat. 'Belief' connotes a simple conviction in something, at the least. That is not misapplied to this example.

[InaneAnanity]

90. Belief connotates uncertainty

And that is what you are after.

[manic expression]

93. Not necessarily

be·lief Audio pronunciation of "belief" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-lf)
n.

1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=belief

[manic expression]

410. Easy

you have beliefs on the topic of the entities you consider without evidence.

[InaneAnanity]

411. Great

[WhollyHeretic]

82. Your lack of comprehension really is staggering

But not surprising from someone who would say "Evidence is inconsequential."

[manic expression]

87. If you don't know what the topic is about

please scroll to the top of the page and read the OP. Thanks.

Evidence is inconsequential in what we are discussing. It doesn't matter how much positive or negative evidence there is, because belief is still a factor regardless.

Seriously, it's annoying to deal with posts like this.

[InaneAnanity]

89. Answer my question!!

How can you have belief with no evidence?? No affirmative evidence, no negative evidence, NOTHING AT ALL!!

[manic expression]

92. I have

spare me the exclamation marks.

There is belief because you do not know either way. Even if there is evidence, one still believes.

[InaneAnanity]

97. Nope.

You have lost your mind.

[manic expression]

100. No, I'm still looking for yours

exactly why do you think I am incorrect?

[InaneAnanity]

103. It's ridiculous

You are saying we all have a belief system about any imagined concept we have ever heard of.

I've told you, I don't believe, one way or another, about concepts for which there is no evidence, affirmatively or negatively.

You keep saying that I do, again, without any proof.

This argument is pointless. You are going to think whatever you want about me, and if thinking I have a belief system in god makes you happier, go right ahead. But I don't.

[manic expression]

105. Not really

You do have a certain way of looking at those topics, god included. You cannot get around this fact.

Also, here are your words:
"I just wanted to let the rest of the world know that no, you didn't put doubt in my mind. Not even close."

For there to be doubt, there must be belief.

[InaneAnanity]

109. And there is no doubt

I don't look at topics for which there is no evidence. How many times do I have to say it??

Seriously, it seems that having everyone believe in god, one way or another, is essential to your worldview. Lack of belief rips into your core somehow and you can't get your mind around it.

I've told you over and over how I think, and you've told me over and over that I'm wrong about how I think, without actually showing me how I am wrong.

[manic expression]

115. Here it comes

claims of me forcing religion on you.

I'm only trying to show you how everyone believes something. Even if their belief is a negative on a certain subject.

[InaneAnanity]

117. For there to be negative belief...

...there must be negative evidence.

I'm just asking, why do you care?? If you think i'm wrong when I say "I know there is no god," fine, most people would keep that to themselves.

But proving to us, and probably to yourself, that we actually do believe, seems to be really important to you.

Ask yourself why that is. That is my suggestion.

[manic expression]

123. Not necessarily

and furthermore, there cannot be a final conclusion, in spite of a lack of evidence, without belief.

There are many reasons why I am discussing this. Primarily, this is the "Religion/Theology" forum. This is kind of why this is here. Secondly, Atheism has the same validity as other belief systems, especially in the realm of politics. When you say Atheism has the same validity, then it is given the same consideration as any organized religion (or should be given). Lastly, I am simply stating my opinions. That is, in part, why this is something I am discussing.

[InaneAnanity]

125. Wrong, wrong, wrong

Atheism is not a belief system. It is a LACK of a belief system. That is what atheism is, a lack of beliefs because of the lack of evidence. For some reason, you can't get your mind around this.

[manic expression]

128. It is a belief system

because it is a certain way of looking at the topic of divinity. You can't get around this, period.

[InaneAnanity]

130. I don't look

I don't look at the topic of divinity. There is nothing to look at. no evidence. Nada. Zilch.

I am right about how I think. You are wrong.

[manic expression]

131. We are discussing that very topic n/t

[InaneAnanity]

135. No, YOU are

I know the answer already. You seem to be stuck in the mud somewhere.

[manic expression]

137. You have been discussing the topic as well

just because one person thinks they know the answer does not make it something different than a discussion. The fact that you have been talking with me proves my point, as you have been addressing the topic, and you therefore have beliefs that pertain to that topic.

[InaneAnanity]

141. Nope

I cannot have beliefs on something that is imagined and without evidence.

[manic expression]

154. Of course you can

You have beliefs on any idea. Just because you do not believe in something does not mean that you have no beliefs on the subject.

Everyone has beliefs (yes, even you) when it comes to "good" and/or "evil", even though there is no scientific evidence for such things. It is much the same.

[InaneAnanity]

155. Nope

[manic expression]

156. wow

the epitome of ignorance.

Thank you for AGAIN NOT dealing with logic or any argument in any way. You've shown your views to be patently false. Would you like to add insult to injury?

[InaneAnanity]

157. Continue

I'm just letting you ramble on. Continue, if you must.

[manic expression]

159. You've been rambling this entire conversation

please post ONE rational comment you have made so far.

[InaneAnanity]

162. Continue in circles...

Your viewing them as irrational is proof of their rationality.

[manic expression]

164. OK, let us try this

Please give me a few reasons why this is wrong:

In all areas of the world, we see that actions are met with reactions. The 2nd Law of Motion states the same of physical objects. The Roman Empire was conquered by the very people they sought to conquer. Every Empire has met the same fate. Countless tyrants have fallen, to be replaced by a better future. Sometimes we may see individuals "get away" with their actions, but in actuality, we can see from other examples that this is only an illusion, for repercussions will always meet the doer. Reagan may have lived out his days, but the entity which carried out his atrocities, the US, can now be seen teetering toward self-depletion, or even partial destruction.

For all intensive purposes, I retract the personal crap I said about you. I just want an honest answer.

[InaneAnanity]

167. Science cries

When it sees you.

[manic expression]

169. I just want an honest answer

I just want some honest discourse.

[InaneAnanity]

171. Gone

Sorry, I lost any desire to do that with you a long time ago

[manic expression]

173. Then you never had it

And you will probably not develop it anytime soon.

You were gone long before this, in more ways than one.

[InaneAnanity]

176. No

I had the desire originally.

You kept accusing me of lying whenever I told the truth. So, why would I want to continue to engage you in that way, when obviously everything you say is right and even when I tell the truth, I am lying??

[manic expression]

179. I never

accused you of lying. EVER. Please post when I accused you of lying. If you cannot or refuse to, then you are the liar.

I have posted evidence over the actions and reactions of existence. This has nothing to do with the label of atheism. Why are you dragging that into this topic when they are completely different?

Furthermore, you refused to deal with my reasonable points on the "label" of atheism.

[InaneAnanity]

182. Not literally

I say: "I don't have beliefs regarding god."
You say: "Yes, you do."
I say: "No, I don't. I really don't."
You say: "Yes, you do."

That is tantamount to accusing me of lying, whether you like it or not.

Re-read the first post of this thread. I suggest you take it to heart, because the way you have conducted yourself here is very insulting to all atheists.

[manic expression]

184. No, that's not true

disagreement is different than calling someone a liar.

To lie, one must KNOW that they are saying something other than the truth. When someone is ignorant of the truth, that is not lying at all.

[InaneAnanity]

186. You are accusing me...

...of being more ignorant of myself and my own thinking patterns than you are.

That is incredibly insulting, and you should recognize that.

[manic expression]

187. Actually, yes, I am

because you are, and you haven't posted a single shred of logic to suggest otherwise.

If you find that insulting, I'm sorry, but the truth hurts.

[InaneAnanity]

188. So, your intent here

And you admit it, was to insult me.

Great. Now I know where this is coming from.

[manic expression]

190. No

If YOU ARE INSULTED by that. I state how I see things. If that hurts you, I'm sorry.

You need to brush up on reading.

I'm going to do something worthwhile instead of be impressed by your fallacy and delusion. However, I'll be back to point out the insanity of your ignorant points that are bound to come later on.

[InaneAnanity]

192. The point of this thread

Was to teach you, and others, why this is insulting to atheists.

So, you knew you were going to insult us, and you did so anyway.

You are a wretched human being.

[manic expression]

196. The point of my posts

is to teach you that you have beliefs, regardless of how much you detest the thought.

The truth does indeed hurt.

[InaneAnanity]

198. It's not the truth

But even if it is, keep it to your detestable self, ok??

[manic expression]

202. Yes, it is

and I have illustrated why it is the truth many times. Since you have not been able to support your contrary opinions, my views stand.

I won't keep the truth to myself just so that you can continue being ignorant.

[InaneAnanity]

203. Just keep it to yourself

because it is insulting

[manic expression]

The truth is insulting?

Perhaps you should modify your belief system.

[InaneAnanity]

206. Read my post at the bottom of this thread

Unless you want me to call you a fairy-tale mongerer, I suggest you stop. Because, honestly, that is what I think about you guys. Generally, I don't bring it up in public, because I know it will cause problems, even though it is the truth.

Take heed from me. Even if you think it is the truth, keep it to yourself.

[manic expression]

208. I haven't called you anything

except someone who has beliefs about the topic of divinity. The fact that you have been arguing with me about that very topic illustrates this fact.

This is a forum for discussion. I won't keep something I believe to myself, just as you do not keep the things you believe to yourself.

[InaneAnanity]

209. But I do

I keep things to myself all the time, if I think they will result only in argument.

This thread was dedicated to showing you and your ilk that saying "atheists have beliefs" is tantamount to saying "atheists are either stupid or liars."

That's all you have accomplished here. So stop.

[manic expression]

213. That's too bad

arguments and discussions let people exchange ideas, which is the basis of learning.

I have never called any atheists liars, because you cannot lie if you believe in what you are saying.

This thread has accomplished the exposure of how some people react when confronted with logic that is contrary to their beliefs.

[InaneAnanity]

215. So you've called me an idiot

Wow, that is so much better.

Just go away.

[manic expression]

217. Under what context?

Because that is certainly warranted from the arguments you have displayed.

[InaneAnanity]

219. I'm just going

to report every post you make, you intolerant arse.

[manic expression]

221. The fact

that you find a mere suggestion so offending just shows how "tolerant" you are. :eyes:

[InaneAnanity]

223. THATS WHAT THIS TOPIC WAS ABOUT!!!

Re-read, or do you have a comprehension problem??

[manic expression]

225. This discussion is about

whether atheists have beliefs. They do, and I have illustrated this. You have been unable to refute my arguments in any way.

[InaneAnanity]

227. Great

Now keep it to youself, you hateful bastard.

[manic expression]

230. Hateful? How so?

I have simply suggested something, and then backed it up. Sorry if you can't take the truth.

[InaneAnanity]

233. Insult, insult, smear, insult

You know the deal.

[manic expression]

236. I fail to see how suggesting something

that does not fit into your belief system makes an insult or a smear. The fact that you are offended is the product of your own ignorance, not of my intention.

[InaneAnanity]

237. Re-read Zhade's post

and if you don't get it then, you must be dense.

[manic expression]

239. Re-read this entire thread n/t

[InaneAnanity]

241. Nice one

[manic expression]

245. Will you re-read it?

You should.

[InaneAnanity]

248. Great

Now go back to your fairy-tale worship.

[manic expression]

252. How is it so?

If you cannot answer this question, you have no reason to believe what you believe.

[InaneAnanity]

255. Great

Now go back to your fairy-tale worship.

[manic expression]

258. Your logic:

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

261. Great

Now go back to your fairy tale worship

[manic expression]

262. More of your logic:

http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1073437344388_2004/01/07/tantrum,0.jpg

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

263. Great

Now go back to your fairy tale worship

[manic expression]

271. .....

:eyes:

[InaneAnanity]

274. Great

Now go back to your fairy tale worship

[manic expression]

278. .....

:eyes:

[InaneAnanity]

281. Great

Now go back to your fairy tale worship

[manic expression]

287. Reason? Who needs it? n/t

[InaneAnanity]

289. Great

[manic expression]

291. You don't even take time to think about your posts....pathetic n/t

[InaneAnanity]

294. Great

[manic expression]

299. What?

no insipid comments anymore? This isn't as funny as it used to be. It is more ridiculous, however.

[InaneAnanity]

Great

[manic expression]

305. What are you trying to accomplish?

I mean, besides making yourself look like an idiot.

[InaneAnanity]

308. Great

[manic expression]

309. No, seriously, I want to know

[InaneAnanity]

311. Great

[manic expression]

312. No, what is it?

[InaneAnanity]

316. Great

[manic expression]

322. No, not great....

because you are still ignorant.

[InaneAnanity]

323. Great

[manic expression]

325. What do you want to get out of this?

[InaneAnanity]

Great

[manic expression]

333. what is it?

[InaneAnanity]

335. Great

[manic expression]

336. Where's the logic?

[InaneAnanity]

Great

[manic expression]

340. Not having logic is not great

[InaneAnanity]

343. Great

[WhollyHeretic]

172. .

:rofl:

[manic expression]

174. Do you want to refute what I've said?

Seriously, I just want an honest answer so I can actually have a discussion.

[InaneAnanity]

177. Anybody

Who would have wanted to have a discussion with you, won't after reading this thread.

[manic expression]

180. Let's let him speak for himself

(or herself)

Shall we?

[manic expression]

402. How can you have belief?

Of course, because you have beliefs on the subject. If you think god does not exist, that constitues a belief. Period.

[InaneAnanity]

403. Great

[manic expression]

399. Remember when you still tried to argue?

and remember when I proved you wrong?

[InaneAnanity]

406. Great

[beam me up scottie]

56. Give it up, my friend.

Some people NEED to believe that atheists are just like them because if they faced the truth it might just open up that bad old Pandora's box of doubt.

Know what I mean?

Their faith can't stand up to our lack of it.

They're quite pitiful, really.

I have much more respect for the believers that understand and accept atheists' lack of religion because it doesn't threaten their faith.


I'm sorry I was gone so long, it looks like nothing's changed in this forum and some of these threads could use a shot of BMUS.

Missed ya. :hug:

[manic expression]

60. Pitiful?

It seems that when I question many atheists' positions, it opens up a Pandora's box of doubt, one that is manifesting itself on this very thread.

It seems that my arguments stand up to your lack of one.

You try to remove yourself from something that you cannot escape because it threatens your beliefs.

[InaneAnanity]

61. Dude

I've read your arguments on other threads, as well as this one. They are pitiful and don't come close to even accurately understanding our view of the world.

I am an atheist. I know god doesn't exist. I have doubt, of course, but only as much doubt as I do about anything. I have a similar amount of doubt in god not existing as I do in unicorns not existing; someday, we may find the skeletal remains of a unicorn someplace, but it's an extremely remote possibility.

If you want to prove something to us, you are going to have to do alot better. We are intellectuals here.

[manic expression]

62. Good for you

I don't argue my points to please you. If you disagree with them, fine. However, know that I probably think the same of your opinions. So where does that get us? Nowhere.

You believe that god doesn't exist, just as you believe that unicorns do not exist. You cannot get around that fact.

"I believe that evolution is a fact." That is about as factual based as you can get, but belief is still operating there.

If you want to show yourself as an intellectual, you are going to have to do a lot better. Furthermore, I can't control what someone else believes, so my aim is not to change people's minds, but simply present my view.

[InaneAnanity]

63. Well

You started this flame-fest by pompously claiming that your arguments put doubt in our minds and fear in our hearts, or some other such b.s.

I'm not going to get into an intellectual argument with you, because it would be pointless, and I don't feel like it. I just wanted to let the rest of the world know that no, you didn't put doubt in my mind. Not even close.

[manic expression]

66. Try checking out

what post I was responding to. In fact, I almost completely mirrored that poster's statements, but switched them around to challenge the poster's point of view.

I would like to remind you that your cheerleader (see post #64 of this thread) said that exact thing about "believers", and so I challenged it. What I was saying, if you cared to actually read it, was that the position that atheists do not "believe" was incorrect, and that my arguments opened up doubt about that specific position.

Oh, and...

"I just wanted to let the rest of the world know that no, you didn't put doubt in my mind. Not even close."

For there to be doubt, there needs to be belief.

[InaneAnanity]

74. So, I ask you again

Everyone (who has heard of them) has a belief system about minotaurs, faeries, unicorns, fire-breathing dragons, or anything else that anyone has ever imagined??

[manic expression]

94. Yes n/t

[beam me up scottie]

64. Score!

Hello.
Have we met?

I'm BMUS.

I've been away for a while and I'm thrilled to see y'all have been "keeping the faith" in my absence.

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

65. Please. You don't "question" our positions, you call us liars.

You continuously insult our intelligence and we're fucking sick of it.

We wouldn't presume to define you so please try to return the favour.

[manic expression]

68. No, actually

To lie, one must consciously say something one knows to be false. That is not the case here.

The only thing you are sick of is the fact that you actually have beliefs, and that is a thought you detest.

[beam me up scottie]

69. Thank you for proving my point.

That was beautiful.

I couldn't have done any better if I had drawn pictures.

:applause:

[manic expression]

70. And what would that be?

The fact that you are oblivious to the fallacy of your views was your point? Well, it's an improvement.

[beam me up scottie]

78. Yeesh. You really love to have us repeat ourselves, don't you?

I'd hate to think you really are unable to grasp the concept that DU atheists have been patiently explaining to you for months.

Although that would make more sense.

Your words

"The only thing you are sick of is the fact that you actually have beliefs"


Doesn't sound like you're "questioning our position" at all.

Does it?

[manic expression]

96. I wouldn't call it 'patiently'

The FACT that you have beliefs. Your position is that you do not have beliefs. Therefore, there is a conflict, and both parties are questioning one another.

[CarbonDate]

106. You know what? Not even worth it. Self delete. n/t.

.

[manic expression]

108. Thanks for saving my time n/t

[beam me up scottie]

111. Actually, IIRC, we started out VERY patiently explaining to you why

you were insulting us.

You refused to listen and continue to try to make us fit into what amounts to a 2nd grader's theory of how everyone is a believer.

Why should we continue to treat you with respect when you so obviously do not ever intend to do the same?

[manic expression]

133. No, the first time I started

to discuss this, people jumped all over me.

Your insipid thought process is showing. I do not claim everyone is a believer, I claim everyone has beliefs. Quite a difference, and I actually expected you to see that.

[InaneAnanity]

136. It's still wrong

Completely, utterly, and annoyingly, wrong.

[manic expression]

139. How so, exactly?

care to actually back up one of your points?

[InaneAnanity]

142. No, I don't

It's pointless to argue with you. You can always cite Shakespeare to prove your correctness, and win the argument in your twisted mind.

[manic expression]

143. Just as I thought

Your inability to back up your delusion is exposed once again.

Oh, and can you even understand the language of Shakespeare? Have you ever read a play or sonnet by him? Do you have any idea of the wealth of insight there is in them?

[InaneAnanity]

144. I understand..

..that Shakespeare was a great writer, and that studying his works is interesting. But nobody will support your contention that Shakespeare is proof of social justice in the real world.

I've already backed up my statements. You just refuse to acknowledge them, and insist on re-iterating your twisted view of the world, over and over and over again.

[manic expression]

149. Yes, but

would you not agree that he did inject much insight into his plays and sonnets?

From reading this thread, I see no real backing from you. See post #138 for more information.

[InaneAnanity]

150. Insight, yes

Some insight. But Shakespeare isn't proof of anything in the real world. He just wrote some stories.

[manic expression]

160. I think that

you should read some of his works, if you have not already. Tell me, which ones have you read?

I would recommend Macbeth, personally.

(on edit) I do think that the insight in his works can be applied to our world, no? Even if you may disagree with his commentary at times (he wrote awhile ago), the main themes that are present in many areas should be recognized. (end of editing)

Look, I used other examples other than Shakespeare. History is the story of actions and reactions. The Romans invaded Britain, and considered it a land of barbarians. 1900 years later or so, Britain is now the superpower of the world, while the barbarians that Rome invaded and conquered had laid waste to Rome itself about 1400 years prior.

Think of any empire. Think of any tyrant. They all fall, and justice always follows.

[InaneAnanity]

163. If you want to view things that way...

..go ahead, but don't expect me, or most anyone else, to agree with you.

You can see many links, causes and effects, in things if you wish to see them. That is the case here.

[manic expression]

168. I don't really desire for agreement

If you disagree with me, that is perfectly fine. Just hear me out, and I'll try the same.

One can see links, but I do believe they are very much real and very much related. Every dynasty came to power in China through seizing power during chaos, and every dynasty has fallen in the same way, through chaos. It has been said that all things that come from the Earth, must return to it. What is the reaction to a hot summer day? The snow in winter (or the opposite of the summer/dry season for other biomes). Birth leads to death, death provides for birth. If bodies did not die and decompose, nutrients could not get into plants, and so life could not continue. This is how existence works.

I would like for your honest thoughts on this. Also, I retract the dumb crap I was flinging before.

This may be of interest:
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/305naturalcycles.html

[InaneAnanity]

170. Unfortunately...

I've checked out regarding you, and any future debate we have will be clouded by this ridiculous exchange.

Just believe what you like, I don't care.

[manic expression]

175. Clouded?

I've offered a great amount of evidence and proof, and you have ignored it. Why?

[InaneAnanity]

178. You

just don't get it.

[manic expression]

181. Not really

I don't get how a person can be so ignorant and delusional.

I never have gotten it, thankfully.

[InaneAnanity]

183. And you never will get it, by the looks of things.

[manic expression]

185. First,

did you read my post?

Secondly, I won't get why people like you are so insipid and ignorant. That is a good thing for me.

[InaneAnanity]

189. You don't get anything

[manic expression]

191. ....

Try thought.

Good night. I'll be back to watch as you make a fool out of yourself even more.

Keep those beliefs strong. Peace.

[InaneAnanity]

193. War

[manic expression]

197. The rhetoric of a 3 year old n/t

[InaneAnanity]

199. The mindset of a sadist

[manic expression]

201. Really?

A sadist for suggesting the obvious? Right.... :eyes:

[InaneAnanity]

205. A Sadist

For intending to insult people with your words, and continuing on for so long when it has become apparent that all you would do was insult.

[manic expression]

207. Please post any intention

of insult I have ever stated. I have only said that I will state how I feel, even if someone takes insult from it.

Suggesting something and asking for honest answers are insulting actions? That is sad.

[InaneAnanity]

210. Reread the initial post by Zhade

[beam me up scottie]

194. You don't "discuss" anything.

As is evident in this thread and the many others you've polluted with your intolerance.

You realize that DU atheists are so sick of being treated with disrespect that the only way you can engage us is to insult us.

And then you whine about how we treat you.

What a piece of work.

[manic expression]

204. Yes, I have

look at my posts like #164, #168 and a host of others where I pleaded for a discussion. Guess what I got in return.

I have provided many arguments, and they have yet to be refuted. One must simply look at this thread for evidence of that. If atheists are sick of someone suggesting something that doesn't fit into their myopic belief system, I'm sorry, but that won't stop me from saying what I think.

You and your contemporaries have been whining about a mere suggestion. Please, I only want some intelligent discourse, something that has been denied to me this entire time.

[InaneAnanity]

229. Well, I think

That you worship idols, fairy-tales, only to ease your scaredy-arse mind.

But I don't go around saying this in every thread.

[manic expression]

232. And how so?

Care to back up your delusion with some logic? I didn't think so.

[InaneAnanity]

234. Go back

to your fairy-tale worship

[manic expression]

238. But you have offered no arguments to say that it is

...as usual.

However, I have offered arguments that show my views, arguments you have been unable to refute. Therefore, my views stand.

[InaneAnanity]

242. Great

Now go back to your fairy-tale worship.

[manic expression]

244. And why do you believe it is?

Belief must have reason behind it. I doubt you possess any, making your beliefs meaningless and wrong.

[InaneAnanity]

246. Great

Now go back to your fairy-tale worship.

[manic expression]

249. Again, you must have reason....you display none. n/t

[InaneAnanity]

251. Great

Now go back to your fairy-tale worship.

[manic expression]

254. How is it what you say it is? n/t

[InaneAnanity]

256. Great

Now go back to your fairy-tale worship

[manic expression]

259. Your intellectual capacity:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

260. Great

Now go back to your fairy tale worship

[manic expression]

264. More of your logic

http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1073437344388_2004/01/07/tantrum,0.jpg

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

266. Great

Now go back to your fairy-tale worship

[manic expression]

269. .....

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

272. Great

Now go back to your fairy tale worship

[manic expression]

282. Once again....

You possess no intelligence whatsoever. Congrats on humiliating atheists everywhere.

[InaneAnanity]

283. Great

Now go back to your fairy tale worship

[manic expression]

284. .............

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

286. Great

[manic expression]

290. I guess logic is something

you just don't want to deal with.

[InaneAnanity]

292. Great

[manic expression]

293. What happened to what you said you would do? n/t

[InaneAnanity]

Great

[manic expression]

297. Logic AND consistency

something you lack.

[InaneAnanity]

298. Great

[manic expression]

300. What happened to fairy tales? n/t

[InaneAnanity]

301. Great

[manic expression]

304. No more assertions without backing?

[InaneAnanity]

306. Great

[manic expression]

313. And you said I was in circles?

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

314. Great

[manic expression]

317. No...bad.....

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

319. Great

[manic expression]

327. The broken record keeps playing

but it sounds terrible.

[InaneAnanity]

328. Great

[manic expression]

331. Yup,

still dumb

[InaneAnanity]

334. Great

[manic expression]

338. and still clueless

[InaneAnanity]

339. Great

[manic expression]

341. and still lost

[InaneAnanity]

344. Great

[manic expression]

387. and still

[InaneAnanity]

390. Great

[manic expression]

389. having fun yet?

[InaneAnanity]

392. Great

[manic expression]

391. pathetic...

[InaneAnanity]

393. Great

[manic expression]

394. how about now?

[InaneAnanity]

395. Great

[manic expression]

396. sigh....so wrong

[InaneAnanity]

Great

[manic expression]

342. and still ignorant

[InaneAnanity]

346. Great

[manic expression]

345. and still believing

[InaneAnanity]

348. Great

[manic expression]

347. and still unaware

[InaneAnanity]

350. Great

[manic expression]

349. and still without reason

[InaneAnanity]

351. Great

[manic expression]

352. and still amusing

[InaneAnanity]

353. Great

[manic expression]

354. and still wrong

[InaneAnanity]

358. Great

[manic expression]

355. and still incorrect

[InaneAnanity]

360. Great

[manic expression]

356. and still misled

[InaneAnanity]

362. Great

[manic expression]

357. and still delusional

[InaneAnanity]

363. Great

[manic expression]

359. and still insane

[InaneAnanity]

365. Great

[manic expression]

361. and still ridiculous

[InaneAnanity]

367. Great

[manic expression]

364. and still pitiful

[InaneAnanity]

369. Great

[manic expression]

366. and still pathetic

[InaneAnanity]

370. Great

[manic expression]

368. and still insipid

[InaneAnanity]

372. Great

[manic expression]

371. and still stuck

[InaneAnanity]

374. Great

[manic expression]

373. and still wrong

[InaneAnanity]

376. Great

[manic expression]

375. and still unable to think

[InaneAnanity]

378. Great

[manic expression]

377. and still refusing the truth

[InaneAnanity]

380. Great

[manic expression]

379. and still a step behind

[InaneAnanity]

382. Great

[manic expression]

381. and still incorrect

[InaneAnanity]

384. Great

[manic expression]

383. and still without reasons

[InaneAnanity]

386. Great

[manic expression]

385. and still saying the same thing

[InaneAnanity]

388. Great

[beam me up scottie]

415. As far as I'm concerned, there can be no intelligent discourse

with someone who believes that:

"Evidence is inconsequential"

"To believe that god does not exist is part of a belief system."

"For there to be doubt, there must be belief."

"Misdeeds are always eventually punished. It is simply the 2nd Law of Motion in another form of existence."

"Rapists DO face consequences. The most callous individual will have terrible things befall them (and if you don't agree with me, please read every Shakespeare play, ever)"

"Every wrong is righted. Always"


And let's not forget the belief that atheists are
"Indoctrinated into atheism. Into believing that god does not exist."




Furthermore, it is impossible to have intelligent discourse on the matter of religion with a believer who would make the following comments to an atheist regarding how they choose to define their atheism:

"I won't keep the truth to myself just so that you can continue being ignorant."

"Perhaps you should modify your belief system."



And my personal favorite, hands down, has to be this one, which not even I, an obnoxious atheist, would EVER say to another person about what they believe:

"You are wrong and incorrect, regardless of what you believe."



And on behalf of DU atheists, I would like to thank you for your honesty.

It has provided more than enough reason to discount anything else you may possibly have to say about atheists and atheism.


Congratulations.

Your award should arrive by mail within two weeks.

[InaneAnanity]

417. You are better than I

Good of you to put his egregious comments together in one post. Should crystallize things for the passers-by.

I doubt it will have much of an effect on him, however, except to get him all riled up.

[CarbonDate]

98. Missed you too; good to see you back

Apparently they haven't gotten tired of us stinking up the R/T board yet.

[beam me up scottie]

114. Gotta be honest somewhere.

I sure can't tell the freeper believers I work with how I feel.

[CarbonDate]

119. I hear that. Even here I have to censor myself a bit....

...but I'm certainly a lot more free than I am at work.

I wish I could just flatly insult someone without feeling bad. But it feels like kicking puppies for peeing on the carpet; you know they really don't know any better.

[beam me up scottie]

120. As the devil says in the Don Henley song,

I sleep very well at night.

:evilgrin:

[struggle4progress]

52. Real Christianity isn't a religion, either. eom

[ozone_man]

145. That's true.

Are you refering to the philosophy and morals of Jesus?

[InaneAnanity]

148. Manic Expression

It's obvious manic expression can't get his mind around the fact that most atheists don't have a belief system regarding god, even in a thread dedicated to helping people get their mind around it.

Very frustrating for us atheists to have to constantly defend our positions because people like him believe they know us better than we ourselves do.

To manic experession and those who think like him: you won't get anywhere by claiming that atheists have belief systems. We don't. Even if you think we do, just keep it to yourselves, ok??

Thank you.

[beam me up scottie]

195. Agreed. See post #194. nt

[InaneAnanity]

200. Here is what I'm going to do

And I think it is perfectly reasonable.

This was a thread dedicated to trying to show theists why accusing us atheists of having beliefs is tantamount to insulting us and accusing us of lying. It has devolved into yet another shouting match about who knows our thinking patterns better: us or them.

There are plenty of things I think that I don't bring up in general conversation. So, even if you think that all atheists have beliefs, it should be clear by now that you should keep those thoughts to yourself. Arguing with me, or anyone else, that you know how I think better than I do will get you nowhere. That should be clear.

So, from now on, whenever someone like manic expression accuses me of having beliefs even though I know I don't, I am going to accuse them of being a fairy tale mongerer. It is not something I would bring up generally, because I know it will just make people angry and won't get me anywhere. but since he is intent on doing the same, that is what I am going to do.

[manic expression]

211. It is obvious that you do

for what arguments have you offered that support your point? None. Your only argument: "we don't".

Since atheists do not believe in divinity, there must be a thought process that goes into this. This thought process constitutes a set of opinions on a certain topic, this topic being the concept of god.

How is this wrong?

[InaneAnanity]

212. Just shut-up

[manic expression]

214. What logic!

What an argument! :sarcasm:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

216. I don't argue...

with fairy-tale mongerers.

[manic expression]

218. No,

but you have been arguing with me.

[InaneAnanity]

220. Shut up

[manic expression]

222. There it is again!

His unassailable logic! His rapier-like wit! :sarcasm:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

224. Shut-up

[manic expression]

226. I can't take it!

This is too good!

:rofl:

:rofl:

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

228. Shut-up

[manic expression]

231. Priceless!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Let me guess...you'll say: "Shut-up", right?

[InaneAnanity]

235. Shut-up

[manic expression]

240. What's next?

Let me guess: "Shut-up"! :rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

243. Shut-up

[manic expression]

247. I knew it!

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

250. Shut-up

[manic expression]

253. No....

No matter what, I won't stop telling you the truth, even if you hate it.

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

257. Shut-up

[manic expression]

265. I thought so

Care to say it again?

[InaneAnanity]

267. Shut-up

[manic expression]

268. ...

http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1073437344388_2004/01/07/tantrum,0.jpg

:eyes:

[InaneAnanity]

270. Shut-up

[manic expression]

273. Why?

Something you need to ask yourself.

[InaneAnanity]

275. Shut-up

[manic expression]

276. So it doesn't bother you that you act like a 2 year old?

[InaneAnanity]

277. Shut-up

[manic expression]

279. Interesting....

the level of intelligence is immense....:sarcasm:

[InaneAnanity]

280. Shut-up

[manic expression]

285. Right....more intellectual discussion......

[InaneAnanity]

288. Shut-up

[manic expression]

295. What happened?

why not just shorten it to "Shut"?

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

296. Shut-up

[manic expression]

302. .............

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

303. Shut-up

[manic expression]

307. What?

I didn't even say anything last post.

[InaneAnanity]

310. Shut-up

[manic expression]

315. Once again, why? n/t

[InaneAnanity]

318. Shut-up

[manic expression]

320. A familiar refrain

you realize how stupid you are, right?

[InaneAnanity]

321. Shut-up

[manic expression]

324. You seem to be stuck

try thinking.

[InaneAnanity]

326. Shut-up

[manic expression]

329. ........

:rofl:

[InaneAnanity]

330. Shut-up

[manic expression]

332. It gets funnier the more you do it

[InaneAnanity]

337. Shut-up

[manic expression]

397. You're still wrong

[InaneAnanity]

398. Shut-up

[manic expression]

412. To InaneAnnity

Or whatever your name is:

You'll notice that I'm not replying to your insipid posts anymore. I've had my fun, now I'm going.

Let it be said that I have throughoughly proven you wrong many times on many subjects. You are wrong and incorrect, regardless of what you believe.

[InaneAnanity]

413. Great

[beam me up scottie]

416. And there you have it folks.

"You are wrong and incorrect, regardless of what you believe"


Said by a believer to an atheist.



An award winning post if ever there was one.


See #415 for the runners up.

[LearnedHand]

414. The referenced fundy argument: more BS they pass off as critical thinking

Good thread. Thanks for posting this.

I never get into this with believers and try to avoid the situations that would lead to just such a discussion. They are illogical, and I'm unmovable (at least, far as they're concerned) in terms of their religious beliefs.

But. Here's how I describe myself:

(1) As far as THE FUNDY concept of god is concerned, I'm a TOTAL athiest. I DO NOT BELIEVE in the judeo-xian god. And if he actually does exist as they portray him, and he has all those characteristics, fuck them and him; I'll take my chances with that god's enemy.

(2) Regarding the existance of some kind of deity/deities, I simply do not know and can never know. I can't rule it out, and I can't rule it in. So I guess I'm agnostic in that regard. It's more comfortable, sometimes, to think there might be a benevolent force available to all creatures in the universe, but I can't "prove" that benevolent force exists.

(3) I'm anti-religion -- at least for myself.

When I'm suffering on the inside, I do talk to things -- rocks, cacti, my cats, the sky, the trees, whatever. It's my way of working through the difficulties and remembering that I'm an organic part of whatever the universe is. So many people want to label that as "deist," "humanist," "pantheist," "native american spirituality," etc., etc. Go right ahead and label it, but as soon as you choose a pigeonhole for my "beliefs," I'm going to do something that doesn't fit that pigeonhole.

I saw the greatest bumpersticker one time, and it about sums up my "atheism" toward god as portrayed by most religions: "God is too big for any one religion." And IMHO, the sum total of all religions is way too small a box for the deity, if it exists. My retreat position: I just don't know, and I'm totally comfortable with the ambiguity, with NOT KNOWING for sure.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

418. Locking.

This discussion has become unproductive (to say the least).