Rev Joel Osteen Refuses to Say Other Religions Go To HELL: Fundies PISSED:

[elehhhhna]

Oh my. This is rich. They're bent because Joel, on Larry King Live, wouldn't "judge what's in other people's hearts". Amazing.

CALLER: Hello, Larry. You're the best, and thank you, Joe -- Joel -- for your positive messages and your book. I'm wondering, though, why you side-stepped Larry's earlier question about how we get to heaven? The Bible clearly tells us that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light and the only way to the father is through him. That's not really a message of condemnation but of truth.

OSTEEN: Yes, I would agree with her. I believe that. . .

KING: So then a Jew is not going to heaven?

OSTEEN: No. Here's my thing, Larry, is I can't judge somebody's heart. You know? Only God can look at somebody's heart, and so -- I don't know. To me, it's not my business to say, you know, this one is or this one isn't. I just say, here's what the Bible teaches and I'm going to put my faith in Christ. And I just I think it's wrong when you go around saying, you're saying you're not going, you're not going, you're not going, because it's not exactly my way. I'm just...

KING: But you believe your way.

OSTEEN: I believe my way. I believe my way with all my heart.

KING: But for someone who doesn't share it is wrong, isn't he?

OSTEEN: Well, yes. Well, I don't know if I look at it like that. I would present my way, but I'm just going to let God be the judge of that. I don't know. I don't know.

KING: So you make no judgment on anyone?

OSTEEN: No.



http://www.biblebelievers.com/watkins_olsteen/osteen.html

[efhmc]

1. OMG. he doesn't know the mind of god. What kind of fundie is he

anyway?

[BikeWriter]

4. I have actually listened to his shows.

[Ladyhawk]

19. Yeah! When I was 7 I knew the bible well enough to tell my JW playmate

she was going to hell. This guy doesn't know his bible! Stone him!

[AntiCoup2K4]

57. But JW's don't believe in Hell.

Which is probably what her parents told her when she came home crying.

Actually, I never got the point of being a Jehova's Witness.

There's no Hell to avoid, and your chances of getting into Heaven are limited to only 144,000 out of everyone who has ever lived. Not very good odds. And you don't even get any holidays to celebrate, including your own birthday.

Doesn't seem to be a payoff for subscribing to the old Watchtower.

[Ladyhawk]

83. Yeah, I've wondered about that, too.

:shrug:

I guess the only benefit is the "fellowship" with other believers. It's too bad there are no formal atheist / agnostic hangouts.

I'm glad my playmate's parents could tell her there was no hell, at least. It's no wonder she never came to play again. Fundamentalism is nasty. :(

[JVS]

96. They believe that Jesus Christ will break the nations with an iron scepter

[jokerman93]

115. cartoon religion

madness.

[mwb970]

127. This stuff just looks crazy to me. (n/t)

[Ian David]

143. If only 144,000 can get into Heaven, why do they try and recruit so much?

Shouldn't they be trying to keep it a secret?

[BikeWriter]

2. He is a fundie, but he's not an obnoxious one!

[Ladyhawk]

20. I knew a "non-obnoxious" fundy once. He invited me over for dinner,

then broke a promise, "cornering" me in his basement, telling me I had no hope without Jesus. Trust me. They're ALL obnoxious if you scratch the surface just a little.

[BikeWriter]

51. Well, I am a fundie. I founded The Church of the Holy Frisbee.

[peekaloo]

133. A Frisbeeterian?

Jim Stafford (goof/singer from Florida) belongs to this order. He believes when you pass your soul gets stuck on the roof of your house. :silly:

[BikeWriter]

138. Yes, I had that revelation one morning...

Hung over from teekillya.

[ComerPerro]

86. Yeah, he is obnoxious. I've watched him on TBN

Hes a freak, and he's just as bad as any of the others.

The only reason he wouldn't say that other religions go to hell is because he probably felt he was being tricked or set up.

[BikeWriter]

93. Okay, if that's the way you see him, I don't.

[ComerPerro]

94. Different experiences probably.

I could have misjudged him. Who knows.

[Ron Green]

3. He's simply a "positive thinking" guy.

There's not much theology or doctrine in his program.

[TexasLawyer]

5. He seems like a good guy

He's on TV all the time in Houston, which is where he preaches. He's not the typical bellowing swindler that one usually thinks a televangelist must be.

[liberaliraqvet26]

6. He appears to be a good person...

i never heard hate in his sermons

[FreedomAngel82]

71. I heard a sermon from him once

It wasn't too bad. It was about how if you have alocholic people in your family you can change that lifestyle by you choosing not to have it in your life and it's not a passed down sort of thing such as a disease or something like that. Thank God he isn't like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and all of them. Blech.

[Blue_Roses]

7. I listen to him sometimes

and he is not like most fundies. He's down to earth and while he believes strongly in his faith, he doesn't condem or judge. I first heard him at my mother's house, who is a conservative Democrat. I thought oh, no, but after listening, I thought differently.

[chalky]

8. I clicked on that link, and my mind REELED at the sheer hypocrisy

that went into Dr. Terry Watkins using this verse on his smear page:

". . . Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
Matthew 7:15

Now I don't know Joel Osteen from Rev. Ike, but...
Let's talk about "ravening wolves", Dr. Terry. Exactly who is it that went to the trouble of creating an attack page, Dr. Terry? And who is it that's baring teeth and claws on said attack page, Dr. Terry?

[karlrschneider]

12. I sent them a *very* significant email. Fuck those jerkoffs.

:grr:

[fearnobush]

44. Beware of false prophets - Pat Robertson & Bush Co,

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
Matthew 7:15

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[Karenina]

9. IT'S AN OUTRAGE!!!

A clergyman admitting his human brain and ego may not be capable of comprehending all the mysterious ways in which the Limitless Deity works? Someboby get me a rope.

[cantstandbush]

10. Where in the Bible doest it say you go to hell if you are not a Christian?

And i want chapter and verse. And it must say all other religions that are not Christian are going to hell.

[jbnow]

28. Go to the link given

They have several bible quotes where Jesus says he's the only way.

If I were Christian and tried to understand that....let me rephrase that. I was baptized Catholic and sent to Catholic school. Nuns/priests were less then fond of me and I was in constant trouble for sincere questions and disagreements. (I was actually kicked out for it for a while in 5th grade. I left the church in 6th grade)

Who got into heaven was one of those issues. I politely but firmly rejected their teaching. I was sure God wouldn't do that and that a loving anything (pagan, Jew, atheist, Buddhist, whatever) would be welcomed ito heaven much quicker then a hateful "Christian".

The quotes on the link are some of the proof they offered. To me it was clear that when Jesus spoke that was he'd be speaking of "the Christ" and not his person Jesus. I rejected that they were the same...just that Jesus the Man was filled with "The Christ"...and Jesus of course was not Christian. To me...accepting Christ could be done without any "holy" or church related words. I felt it was the Spirit, not the words

Oddly the nuns were not persuaded by my preteen wisdom, nor I by theirs.

I was then a happy agnostic for many years until I was no longer agnostic. I ponder God/man a lot. I like to talk about it with others who do. So I let a neighbor who was a minister come talk to me at times, with warning he wouldn't convert me.
This heaven thing was one of our debates too with pretty much the same arguments. One day he came with the ultimate verse that "proved" he was right. I don't recall what one it was but it said something about when he returns those who know him will kneel before him and be saved. His big point was if we don't know him how will we know to kneel.

I never laughed so hard in a talk with a "Christian". What, he thinks all Christians know what he looks like, that's his proof? Which picture was the accurate one?
If anything it proved to me (assuming any biblical accuracy) that it had nothing to do with the dude Jesus and everything to do with the spiritual energy that would resonate with those of like energy. I told him he'd be surprised how many prominent Christians might walk right on by and how many "sinners" who've never been to church might recognize him.

If I happen to talk with such people now and they ask me why I think I know what it means I tell them before I was born I had a job as God's administrative assistant and took all his dictation.

[TankLV]

38. Jesus is the trinity - Father, Son & Holy Spirit. They are all one in the

same, if these so-called xtians would stop cherry picking only the crap they support.

So believing only in "God" the Father is the same as believing in the "son".

If you believe in one, you believe in all. You get 3 for the price of ONE! Such a deal!

Just more useless waste of breath.

[TheGunslinger]

58. If only people realize Jesus was nothing more than a politician

and the disciples were his support group spreading his message.

[Perky]

128. I'd like to see a politician

Heal the sick, raise the dead, walk on water, change water into winefedd a multitude and oh yeah be resurrected.

[TheGunslinger]

130. Would be neat if it ever happened. Thing is, it never did.

That's all fairy tales and exaggerations that have been perpetuated thru political/religious agendas and mistranslations.

[CatBoreal]

67. You know, we really can't know exactly what Jesus said and what he didn't.

There were many versions of the Gospels, not just the four you see in the modern bible. Eight (Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Philip, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of the Egyptians, Gospel of the Hebrews, Gospel of James, Gospel of Judas)are considered to be non-cannonical gospels (with Luke, Matthew, Mark and John considered to be cannonical). There is also evidence of another gospel written by Q.

It was the Council of Nicea who chose which gospels would be officially sanctioned in 325 CE.

Given that they cherry picked which gospels would be the official version, who's to say that they didn't add or change the text to suit their needs and or prejudices?

Describing Jesus as the only way to salvation strikes me as a slick marketing tool, a means of scaring people into converting. We know that early Christians were not adverse to forced conversions, this may be their means of justifying it.

[jbnow]

82. You're right and besides the Nag Hammadi

and other ancient writings, there is the problem of interpretation over the years. Ancient languages that didn't include vowels can be tricky since they can mean completely different things depending and we depend on the subjective translation by various scribes.

Then the languages involved and the difficulty of going language to language with all the dialects, nuances and idioms. Jesus spoke in Aramaic so the very first Greek transcript was a translation.

As you noted the Nicene council determined the "official" version and we can guess their choices were largely for church political reasons, the "marketing tools".

Then we have the nasty energy of some leaders today who make the whole crazy issue worse.

[CatBoreal]

95. Just take a look at the Our Father...

translated from Aramaic to English

O cosmic Birther of all radiance and vibration. Soften the ground of our being and carve out a space within us where your Presence can abide.

Fill us with your creativity so that we may be empowered to bear the fruit of your mission.

Let each of our actions bear fruit in accordance with our desire.

Endow us with the wisdom to produce and share what each being needs to grow and flourish.

Untie the tangled threads of destiny that bind us, as we release others from the entanglement of past mistakes.

Do not let us be seduced by that which would divert us from our true purpose, but illuminate the opportunities of the present moment.

For you are the ground and the fruitful vision, the birth, power and fulfillment, as all is gathered and made whole once again.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

Very different from what is said in modern churches.

Now it's been pointed out to me by someone who's husband was a Baptist minister that the Gospels were never written in Aramaic, but were written originally in Greek, so I don't know how accurate this is.

Can someone clear that up??

[Perky]

136. If you go back and read the early fathers

prior to Nicea, you will find scant reference to any of the apocryphals gospels: Suggesting to me that the earliest fathers thought they were not authentic texts written by the eyewitnesses.

I personally do not believe that that an omnipotent God would allow canonization of false testimony. For if the practice of Christianity in both it glories and failures was based on te carnal choices of ommission or commission of man alone then Judgement whatever form would be unjust on its face. I just can not fathom that possibility.


But that bring me back to my original comment which you never really responded to. Most theologians are of the view that Jesus was rather apolitical. He made no attempt to sieze political powere either from the Sanhedrin or the Romans.

[plasticwidow]

144. And to take your post a step further....

First, thank you for pointing that information out. Not many know that the Council of Nicea, when deciding what to include in the bible, and what not.. that supposedly reincarnation lost by 1 vote to be included as part of the official doctrine. Go figure.

I think, in my opinion, that when Jesus (peace be upon him) said, "I am the truth, the way and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me" that what he meant was, that if you follow his example as he lived his life, that is how you will get to the Father, or God. Being kind, forgiving, helpful, charitable, speaking kindly, acting in a good way toward your fellow man, irregardless of race, creed, religion or belief.. you know.. this is the core belief in most religions. In Islam, Jesus (peace be upon him) was the perfect Muslim..and I know I will be chewed out by many christians for this statement, but Islam wasn't founded by Muhammad (peace be upon him), it was founded by Abraham, the same Abraham of the Bible, and Islam is simply a continuation of the Abrahamic religion.

It is sad to see so many different opinions and people taking things so literally, instead of seeing behind the words and realizing there most probably is a different truth, if they would just open their eyes and see it.

Peace to everyone here!

[JVS]

97. Don't forget the words of 4th Lateran council in 1215

Extra ecclesiam non salus est!

Cyprian is the one who first declared this IIRC

[jbnow]

105. I won't forget because I don't

know what it means in the first place.

It has been many lifetimes since I've used Latin. I'm rusty.

[JVS]

107. It translates to "outside the Church there is no salvation"

[cantstandbush]

131. It doesn't say you will go to hell. n/t

[npincus]

11. personally, I like him and his positivity

and I'm not Christian, either. He just seems like a decent human being who is trying to help others. I don't see him as a Fundie at all.

[texpatriot2004]

13. Good for him, I agree, I think Joel is right on that nm

[Skink]

14. I met him at a book signing.

Actually he said hi to me while I was eating as I was working the event. Really nice guy. I've seen his show. He is totally genuine. BTW I'm an Atheist.

[FreedomAngel82]

73. That was nice

:) I haven't heard much from him either in the political realm like all these other so-called preachers. I think you can really tell a lot about a person when they're a preacher by how involved they are in the politicial spectrum. Real preachers care nothing more than to just spread Jesus' message(s) and don't care about how people vote and leave that to you. My preacher has only talked about politics twice. Once was when he asked why we have to be left vs. right and why we can't just be all working together for a better country for God and than another time for a fourth of July sermon about how we're lucky in this country with the first amendment and everything. I haven't heard of this guy enough to know but I'm sure I would recognize his name if he was out there like Dobson, Falwell and all of them. I think the Christian faith needs more people like that. Too bad him and SoJourners and Jimmy Carter couldn't get together and counteract these fundies.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Glad to hear him say it. That's why I am willing to list him on my

website under the general religious resources. For a fundagelical he's not too bad.

[mandyky]

15. That's why I can't believe the Catholics and Jews support this crew

Fundies (I used to be a Bible Baptist) believe anyone who is not "formally saved" meaning that they accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior (he died for your sins) is doomed to hell. I know plenty of Christ-like people who do not stress that would be very upset to hear they're doomed to hell.

They used to send us to school and out on the streets to hand out tracts to try to convert people. It never seemed right or made sense to me and that is one reason why after a year of that crap I was agnostic for almost a decade, and why I still refuse to join organized religion of any sort. 12 Step programs are where I go for fellowship.

[Parrothead Terp]

24. ummm

pretty sure jews voted for kerry and gore about 70-30 over the goob in the WH.

[mandyky]

26. I am talking about the bush supporters of any religion

other than the Falwell, Robertson, Dobson ilk.

[autorank]

16. Finally, after 2005 years, 11 months and 26 days, the truth.

This is a very public and unambiguous statement of truth. When I was a kid I would ask my mother questions about religion that didn't make sense. I once asked, "If God loves all of us and forgives us our sins, how can he send people to Hell to suffer forever." She said, "Well, our priest (a man I admired greatly)) told me that that's not what really happens. They just say that to get more people in church."

I have not been troubled by the question ever since. I'm glad somebody is subscribing, at least partially, to my mother's esteemed theology.

Thanks mom. You spared me years of alternating sadism and guilt.

[FreedomAngel82]

74. Good

And that's how it should be. It should be left to God. Even Jesus said he didn't come to earth to judge either and neither should we. We should be more worried about the things Jesus worried about: helping the poor and elderly, children, Pharasiee's, peace and working with our marriages. He didn't care obviously about gay people.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. These are the chick track people!!! LOL

Google, "Chick Tracks" and read their history. I guarantee you won't be bored.

[area51]

36. Chick tract parody

There's a great Chick tract parody here.

[immoderate]

37. I'd like to see it.

The link doesn't work for me. Please provide further info. (I'm hot for Li'l Suzy!)

--IMM

[CatBoreal]

63. This is my favorite Chick parody...

http://www.e-sheep.com/Saturnalia/

Can you guess why??

BTW, NSFW.

[terrya]

21. I bet that attitude doesn't extend towards gay and lesbian people.

I'll be willing to bet that he's cut from the same, tiresome homophobic cloth. Those "homos" will never get into heaven...except by "curing" themselves.

[journalist3072]

The Bible teaches us

That homosexualty is an abomonation against God. That's not me talking. That's not Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson or anyone else talking. That's from the Word of God.

And I think most ministers are simply preaching against the sin and the act of homosexuality---not trashing people who are homosexual.

[TankLV]

43. Hey you can't help it, right. Your a just a bigoted and hateful homophobe

because "the bible" says so, so you're not to blame, right?

And that's just the wonderful "word of God" krap - right?

[Tsiyu]

48. According to two Rabbis- Scholars of the Bible

the ancient text forbidding a man lay down with a man referred to a fertility ritual, not every day sex.

Are you a Biblical scholar as well?

[TankLV]

50. Obviously not.

[Tsiyu]

80. It's amazing how many people "know" what GAWD SEZ

because THE BOBBLE SEZ SO!

Well, they ought to study that bible and its history before they run their frickin' mouths...

[Occulus]

76. I can't post to you what I would REALLY like to say

because it would be deleted out of hand.

Allow me to simply say I see your religion as the font of hate in our society. And yes, they DO attack me, personally. They DO trash people who are homosexual. If you believe otherwise, you are exactly the same as them.

Let me repeat myself: I see the Bible and its followers as the most hateful, bigoted, hypocritical, and downright evil religion on the planet. Christianity, to me, has nothing at all to do with love or salvation, and everything to do with hate and damnation.

Ask the people who died in the Crusades, or the Inquisition. It wasn't all that long ago, and before you go pointing out that it is in the past, so was Galileo. And it took the church- and I WILL NOT EVER AGAIN DISCERN BETWEEN SECTS- until, what, the 1970s to admit he was correct?

In the past, my manfucked ass. And you can quote me on that.

It is a bitter, sad sad irony that the very same people who believe in an infinitely merciful "god" also believe that very same "god" will cast a soul "he" created into eternal pain and suffering. It is even more ironic that Christians seem to think it's okay to begin somebody else's citizenship in their fictional "hell" while those people are yet alive.

You people refuse to even give us a chance.

Don't you people get it? You claim that being depressed and angry and spiteful toward your "religion" are going to "hell", yet you go out of your way- as you yourself have done twice on this thread- to put us there.

Go to your OWN hell. I no longer believe the "Christian" "god" exists. I believe it to be a totally fictional construct created and believed in by weak minded individuals who cannot bear the knowledge that, yes indeed, our lives belongs to us and not to you.

You beat us. You kill us. You call us names. You legislate against us. You deny us housing. You deny us compassion. You deny us the ability to be with loved ones while they are dying. You deny us employment.

Most of all, you go out of your way to deny us the supposedly infinite love of your own "god".

Love doesn't require people to change to suit it, therefore, your "god" does not love. Not us, anyway. Because you think we don't deserve it.

Of course, you don't and won't care how this makes us "feel", because we're just not worthy, are we?

(I do understand if this gets deleted, but I HAVE HAD ENOUGH.)

[FreedomAngel82]

88. And I don't appreciate you

slaming me for my faith. You don't know all of us do you? So stop lumping us together damn it!

[Occulus]

91. Nope, sorry... I don't need or WANT to know any more of you than I do

I will no longer entertain the idea that there are "good" Christians. Why? Because every gaybashing victim, every one of us killed, has been killed by someone who believes the crap your bible holds.

To me, you ALL are suspect. Why? Because I can't tell you apart on sight.

I hardly leave the house anymore. You people- YOUR RELIGION- has made me downright afraid of EVERYONE wearing a cross- which is a frighteningly huge number of people. I don't EVER know which of you will beat me, try to kill me, or simply spit in my face. I HAVE TO BELIEVE AS I DO. My own life could well be at stake.

Because of your religion, I can't walk down the street even holding hands with anyone I love- much less give a smooch in public, LIKE YOU CAN. Ever more and more, BECAUSE OF YOUR RELIGION, I have to hide who I am from public view. I can't even be myself in public anymore BECAUSE OF YOUR RELIGION.

Not that I ever could. I was being called "fag" by so-called "good" Christians loooooooong before I even knew what that meant. My own family ruined my life because of what they were taught- BY YOUR RELIGION.

eight, nine years of career preparation in music, thousands of hours of rehearsal and performance down the tubes because a couple christianed-up bigots decided I wasn't "good enough" for them. These were people who never set foot in a church while I was growing up, but they still whipped out your "holy" book to justify ruining their own son's life.

So, yes, I'll slam you for your faith if I bloody well please, because it is BECAUSE OF your faith that my life didn't become what it was supposed to be.

Not that I could be a high school music teacher now if I wanted to, because, again, thanks to Christianity, gay teachers are fired out of hand. I guess you could say, thanks to your religion, I never, ever had a chance to be who I wanted to be in the first place.

Your religion forced me into this hell I call "life", and I'm NOT taking it lying down anymore.

edit: please note, this is general and impersonal. It is precisely because so many self-proclaimed "good, accepting" christians defend the whole of their "holy" book, include the one, little line that has been the cause of so much misery, bloodshed, and tears and loss, that I feel the way I do.

The more you defend your religion, the more averred to it I become.

[FreedomAngel82]

117. You're just as bad as any fundie!

It's true! You're just as bad and hatefilled as any fundie on the right!! You don't like anyone who is different than you! I actually don't feel sorry for you if that's all you want is my pity you aren't getting it! I've tried being nice to you but all you do is lash out at me! Shameful! My religion forced you into hell? I don't think so. YOU did it yourself! You can move on with your life and ignore what other people say as I've done in the past. The only person who controls your life is YOU. Your acting like the other Christians I know who say "Satan made me do it!" Pathetic!

[Occulus]

125. You COMPLETELY missed the point.

I can't ignore a religion that wants me gone. It is directly because of your religion that I cannot walk down the street holding the hand of the person I love without fear of physical attack by the believers of your religion.

This is not some idle fear brought on by needless paranoia- this is a very real potential threat. People who worship as you do have killed people like me, in the name of your religion. People who worship as you do have denied people like me employment and housing and even basic justice under the law as set forth in both our federal and state Constitutions, in the name of your religion.

It is Christians who pick and choose what parts of their own holy book they wish to obey. It is supposedly "tolerant" Christians who do exactly what the fundies do- cherrypick- when they feel they don't like what the Bible has to say.

I'm done tolerating that. You have exactly TWO options, as far as I'm concerned:

1) shut down the sermon and shut up the priest, right there, in church, in front of the rest of the congregation, when they start their pap about homosexuals. As someone who has performed in front of about 17,000 people at once, I can tell you it is doable.

2) Leave your religion.

Anything less- and that includes simply walking out of the church, thereby giving them an unfettered forum in which to allow their own hate to fester and grow- is completely unacceptable, and in fact makes you part of the problem.

You took offense at what I had to say. Good. Welcome to my world. I can guarantee you that, as a Christian, you have not experienced persecution equal to my smallest nail clipping compared to what I have as a homosexual. You never will. You are "priveleged".

NOW you know how it feels. THAT was the point.

I don't want your pity, because I do not need your pity. I do not need your sympathy. What I need is for you to change your bible, so that, over the course of several generations of believers, that hate will slowly die out, until children four or five generations hence wonder why that verse was ever allowed to remain in modern times in the first place.

If you are unwilling to even try to do this, you are part of the problem. That's not just how I see things; it is an inescapable fact.

You must understand: I do not take the stand I do out of malice, or bigotry, or hate, but out of a genuine concern for my physical safety and the preservation of my own life, and the lives of those I love. You will be very hard pressed to come up with an example of a gay man killing a Christian simply because they are a Christian, but I can present to you quite literally i[]dozens of cases from all over the nation and indeed the world of religious people- here in the US, mostly if not all Christians- who have beaten, denigrated, and even killed people like me.

Your defense of your religion in this matter places you on one side of the fence. I plead to you, in the name of your own supposedly all-loving and all-knowing merciful God and Savior, to make the correct choice.

PLEASE understand, I wrote what I did to elicit a very specific reaction in order to make a point. I manipulated you with words, and for that and that alone I am sorry. Unfortunately, it was detestably necessary in order to make my point. Offending you was part of that. I knew what I had to say would do exactly that.

Try to imagine what it is like, to be told from the age of X, as a child, that gay people are evil and dirty and sinful and will go to hell, and at the same time know that you are "different" from everyone else. Imagine the fear, as a child, that you are "different" in "that way".

Now imagine going through what I did, at the hands of those who supposedly love you, all in the name of a religion. And yet, for years and years, giving the benefit of the doubt.

Now imagine those same forces, as an adult, legislating against you. Imagine being told, "you will NEVER marry who you love. It is forbidden, on order of Christ." Would you, or would you not, just throw up your hands and quit tolerating it further?

Or- how many times can you kick a dog before the dog can be completely forgiven for biting back?

This was never personal. This was and is general, a sense of utter rejection, a longing for what others feel and are joyous for feeling. I don't and can't have that, now or ever. That denial is but one small, darkly shining facet of the hell I and people like me live, day to day, because of the majority religion.

Your religion puts me there. I do resent it, and for my own physical safety, I must treat all Christian believers as suspect until they prove otherwise. To do differently is to risk my own physical well-being in day-to-day activities that you and others quite simply take for granted.

This is not and never was about hate or bigotry. This is and will ever be about my own physical safety. It has been proven, indisputably, that mine is a legitimate and indeed clear and present concern, something I must always keep in the back of my mind.

I sincerely wish it were not so. Unfortunately, I have no choice but to take the stand I do. If I do not, I could be beaten or killed. That, to me, is a trump card, the ultimate right bower.

I truly hope you take from this some understanding of what it is like to be me, or like me. Christians, in the US, do not know persecution. Gays and lesbians DO, and at the hands of Christians. It is a bitter, sad irony that the religion claiming persecution is actually the one doing the persecution, but rectifying this is not and cannot be my responsibility.

It is yours. Yours, and your fellow believers. I truly hope, for my sake, and for the sake of others like me, that you make the correct choice in this.

[TankLV]

102. Thankyou. My thoughts exactly.

[Occulus]

126. Now go read post #125.

There was a specific reason I posted as I did.

Certain parties should consider it a lesson. :)

[Enraged_Ape]

137. Well, now that we're in broad-brush mode

why are gay people such fucking whiners? I can't stand listening to that defeatist, "poor-me-I'm-such-a-victim" shit.

And yes, I am being sarcastic.

[plasticwidow]

145. And you are right...

right on the mark. No one has the right to speak for God. God IS most merciful and most compassionate. It is a shame that those who claim to follow this God don't practice those same qualities and virtues. In the end, those who claim to speak for God will have to answer to that very same God who has called itself The Most Merciful and Most Compassionate. For speaking in God's name a message that it never gave, they will have to answer for. And you realize that this thread is primarily geared towards Christianity, but it also filters into many other religions as well. Remember, that Jesus himself said, "Judge not lest ye be judged. And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us." It is pretty clear from an Islamic AND Christian viewpoint that forgiveness is not free, it has to be bought with the same "coin" by us as we give it to others.

Peace to you!!

[stepnw1f]

89. Using the Bible to Justify Your Narrow-Minded Hatred

Sick and evil. How dare you use the Bible the way you do.

[TankLV]

103. Amen. Thank you for your support.

[jbnow]

100. I meant Post 99 in response to your post

It is just above yours.

My anger is not at you, it is at that argument by the way.

[NMMNG]

124. The Bible also teaches

Divorce is not to be allowed
The eating of shellfish is an abomination
Women are not to braid their hair or wear gold jewelry
Women should be silent in church and never teach men
Women are to be subservient to men
People should mind their own business
Children should be dashed against rocks
Children should be stoned to death for disobeying their parents
etc, etc.

How many of these Biblical Teachings do you follow, or exhort others to follow--or do you follow the cafeteria plan and only give a crap about the alleged ban against homosexuality?

[BiggJawn]

149. Oh, more of that "LOVE the Sinner, HATE the SIN" stuff, right?

No, they preach against those who PRACTICE that "sin", too.

They don't say "You and your partner come join our church because we love YOU..." they say "getchurself RIGHT with GAWD and CLEANSED of that sin, then we'll take your money and promise you moondust..."

And I don't much care if the Word of Cthulu said it, it's still a hateful thing.

[journalist3072]

32. The Bible teaches us

That homosexualty is an abomonation against God. That's not me talking. That's not Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson or anyone else talking. That's from the Word of God.

And I think most ministers are simply preaching against the sin and the act of homosexuality---not trashing people who are homosexual.

[Left Is Write]

35. That depends upon how one interprets the Bible.

And whether you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God, or whether you believe the Bible was divinely inspired, but written and translated by human hands and thus subject to human fallibility.

It also depends upon which version of the Bible you are reading, how many translations and reivsions it has undergone, and the bias of the humans who translated or revised it.

There are many who read and study the Bible who do not reach the same conclusion you have.

[MadisonProgressive]

56. Maybe the bible is just a really bad novel

[smirkymonkey]

59. Thank you!

:applause:

[journalist3072]

66. How sad for you! eom

[MadisonProgressive]

68. Sad? Because I have a functioning brain? Because I'm objective?

Thanks for your concern. I'll have to check my skepticism at the door next time!:rofl:

[TankLV]

39. Name one place in the bible where it mentions homosexuality or homosexuals

Just one.

What you said is to put it diplomatically, utter and complete KRAP!

[FreedomAngel82]

79. I know a lot of conservative Christians

who point to Soddom and Gamora. But that wasn't specifically about gay people. There was a lot of stuff going on in that city. Mostly a lot of violence as I remember.

[NMMNG]

123. The "sin" of Soddom and Gommorah was inhospitality

The angels were guests, and the people of the city demanded they be thrown out to be raped--an act of extreme inhospitality towards strangers. In biblical times inhospitality was one of the worst crimes that could be perpetrated, as refusing to offer a stranger shelter, food or other assistance could very well mean his/her death. This, and not "homosexuality", was the sin involved in this tale.

[JanusAscending]

52. And would that be found in the New or the Old Testament?

PRAY TELL?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. Sorry, it sounds as if you belong to a church that

harps on just a couple of passages to the exclusion of all others.

The Old Testament passage in Leviticus about homosexuality considers it a ritual impurity (mistranslated as "abomination"), along with all sorts of other things that we don't pay attention to today, such as believing that a man who has a wet dream is "unclean" till evening.

The men in Sodom and Gomorrah are not "gay" in the way that we understand, any more than your average prison rapist is. It's about humiliating the rape victim, not about having homosexual tendencies. Incidentally, Lot offers the would-be rapists his virgin daughters. (Is that any way for a father to act, to offer up his daughters to be gang-raped?)

In Paul's condemnations of homosexuality, he is evidently referring to temple prostitution, and in any case, he lists homosexual behavior as just one of a list of "sins," including anger.

If you've been around gay and lesbian people, you must have noticed that their identity is not something that they DO, but something that they ARE. Ask the next gay/lesbian person you meet when they first knew that they were different from the majority. (You'll find that it's usually before they even knew there was such a thing as sex.)

Some have tried heterosexual marriage, and have ended up making two people miserable, themselves for living a lie, and their straight spouses, who wonder why the closeted gay spouse seems to find sex with them so distasteful.

And as often as not, gays and lesbians are very fine people--loving, responsible, concerned about the larger world, devoted to their parents and siblings' families, and ready to help someone in need. I have seen gay/lesbian couples at every stage, falling in love, setting up housekeeping together, being "an old married couple," in bitter breakups, and even being "widowed." At each of these stages, the emotions are EXACTLY the same as straight couples experience.

Have you ever seen a gay man sobbing in church and asking for prayers after learning that his partner of over 20 years has terminal cancer? I have. See that, and you know that their relationship wasn't about "unnatural lusts" or any of that crap.

Gays and lesbians are part of God's creation, and while some individuals may be unpleasant or hateful, I will not let anyone condemn them as a group.

It's pathetic that certain fundamentalist preachers are preying on the insecurities and hang-ups of (mostly) their male parishioners and are raving on and on as if being gay is the worst thing in the world.

You know all those idiots who natter on about "Sexual orientation is a conscious choice"? You know what I think of them? I think that they're closet bisexuals who actually HAVE chosen to suppress their homosexual side, and it drives them loony.

If having a homosexual orientation is a sin (and I don't believe that it is), it's God's problem, not yours.

If you have to obsess about something, obsess about how too many fundamentalist preachers are filling their parishioners' heads full of hatred for gays and lesbians and at the same time drumming up support for politicians who wage unprovoked war and promote policies that harm the poor, the disabled, the elderly, and chlidren.

I hate the way so many fundamentalists have reduced Christianity to a set of rules about sex.

[Left Is Write]

61. Brava!

Some of what you said is what I should have said in my post last night, but I had neither the patience nor the inclination.

You said it better than I would have anyway.

[FreedomAngel82]

87. I agree

Oh and also about Lot don't forget that his daughters slept with him too. Blech. I always found that gross.

[jbnow]

99. Oh please, how do you

choose what abominations to God are abominable and still an abomination?

Yes, men who lay with men are called an "abomination to god" in the Old testament. (Women who lay with women are never mentioned) So are the loathsome shellfish eaters or those who sit in a chair a menstruating woman sat on or even those who work on Sundays. Most agree those are stupid.

But what about the things that do count? Dishonest business practices is called an abomination to God many times. Oppressive treatment of others and a haughty attitude are an abomination to him.

These six things doth the LORD hate:
yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies,
and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Those who justify the wicked or condemn the just as "abominations". I could go on but you get the idea.


People feel so smug saying "God said it, not me". Just BULL!
They pick out one thing, gay men (and stretch it to include gay women) and preach it and judge by it, pronounce in as the word of God.

Doesn't matter that Jesus didn't mention it. And the ones that DO matter just aren't mentioned as Christian virtue anymore, as things that God hate even though Jesus preached about them too.

So let us cheat each other for money and shed innocent blood and lie and all that, but you get to heaven if you denounce gay sex. Ain't that holy.

It disgusts me and I am not Christian and I am not gay.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

106. You hide behind your FUCKING BIBLE - hateful fucking lying bible.

And you say "it's not me!"!

Go fuck yourself and get a clue, you hateful, bigoted person.

What EVERYONE ELSE has said that supports MY statement should be taken to heart.

You will get no pass simply because you CHOOSE to BELIEVE in such HATEFUL KRAP.

Try peddling it someplace ELSE!

Now repeat after me while looking in the mirror: "I am a bigoted hateful person, because the bible lets me."

Don't you feel all tingley inside? I knew you would.

[journalist3072]

34. Sorry for the multiple posts there....my computer was acting up. eom

[TankLV]

40. We're sorry for the ONE post!

The others are just salt in our wounds - and ignorant babble at best.

But thanks for playing and continuing to spew this bullshit!

[journalist3072]

46. So, what I hear you saying, is that

The Word of God is "bullshit?" Sad!

[TankLV]

49. I'm saying there is no such thing.

You have yet to give proof of what you are spewing.

I'm not the one who is sad - I enjoy myself and treat others with dignity and fairness.

Obviously, you like the security and safety of your "beliefs", however bullshit they are!

[journalist3072]

65. God doesn't need to prove himself to anyone

And he doesn't force anyone to accept him. He's there for the taking, if people will have Him, but He doesn't force himself on anyone.

His Word is there for people who are interested in reading it.

I don't need to defend God or His Word.

[salin]

69. just be careful about repeating the selected

passages to support one view or another. The cherry picking of versus of the bible to support one Word of God over another Word of God is a really interesting phenomenon. It is what seperates fundamental literalist Christians from other Christians. I do not believe in the literal word. Too many humans of translated one version of the bible or another - and too many years of oral tradition ... passing along before there is written record... for me to believe in literal interpretation.

While I believe it is your right to believe as you do, that the literal word has somehow been preserved in all of the different passed down and translated versions, and I do not believe you are less Christian than I to believe this way, I hope that you can allow that some Christians are no less Christians when we do not adhere to strict literalism. Frankly not believing strict literalism makes the Bible easier to understand - given the contradictory nature of different passages contained therein.

[journalist3072]

111. You either believe ALL of the Bible, or believe none of it

You cannot pick and choose which parts of the Bible you choose to believe, and which ones you don't.

Too many people do that today; when they come across a particular scripture that they are uncomfortable with (because it would force them to live very different lives from the ones they are currently living) then the choose not to believe that particular passage.

I believe that you either believe all of the Bible, or none of it.

[FreedomAngel82]

114. So do you follow the Old Testament too?

Do you wear two different types of cloth together? Do you eat shrimp? I, as a Christian, only follow the New Testament. And you can choose what to do though. You can either be a hateful bigot towards other people or spread the *good news* (as Jesus said in Mark 16) or you can go out and spread hatefullness and nothing that Jesus talked about. Jesus didn't talk about gay people and if gay people were such a threat and so important like the rightwing fundies are trying to make than why didn't Jesus talk about them? The Bible is for my personal life. I do believe in going out and spreading the gospel, but I also believe in freewill and people being able to reject my beliefs if it's not what they believe. Would you want to be forced into a religion that you didn't believe in? I surely wouldn't which is why I'm so glad to live in a country where the founding fathers gave me that opportunity to have freedom of religion and even from religion. Instead of worrying about gay people so much try worrying about things you can do such as helping the poor, elderly, enviornment and the children's future.

[Zhade]

141. Hey FA - thanks for taking the homophobic bigot to task.

We atheists are always looking for the liberal believers to take on their deluded brethren, so I tip my hat to you for telling this idiot off!

:yourock:

(Same to all other believers on this thread who did likewise!)

[BiggJawn]

150. Oh, boy, your neighbours must think you're weird...

OK, so you believe that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states Homosexuality to be an abomination. But what I want to know, since you claim you either have to take ALL of it or NONE of it....

When you burn a bull on your backyard altar as a sacrifice, you know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1: 9. But what about your neighbors? Do they claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Did you smite them?

Have you sold your daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21: 7? What'd you get for her?

You know that you're allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. But how do you tell, outside of the women of your own household? Oh, I forgot, make that WoMAN, you SOLD your daughter...Most other women want to slap you when you ask them if they're "unclean", right?

Lev. 25:44 states that you may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. How many Mexicans do you own? and have you tried purchasing slaves from Canada, or concubines from Thailand?

You probably have at least one neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Have you killed him yet?

Of course you know that eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, but is it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality?

Lev. 21:20 states that you may not approach the altar of God if you have a defect in your sight. Do you wear glassses or contacts?

Most non-Hasidic males get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How about you?

And Lev. 11:6-8 states that touching the skin of a dead pig makes you unclean. You don't own any pigskin driving gloves or ever play football with your kids, do you?

Quick! Look at the label of your shirt. does it say "100%" anything? No? Lev 19:19 says that's another of those abominations...

All of it, or none of it, bub...and if you're gonna try to squirm your way out of it by claiming the "New Covenant" or something, let me direct you back to Lev. 18:22 again. You gonna take that to heart, you better take the rest of it.

[Occulus]

78. Oh yes you fucking well do. n/t

[stepnw1f]

85. Spoken Like the Taliban

"God doesn't need to prove himself to anyone"

You mistaken yourself for God evidently. How sick!

[Left Is Write]

62. Please read this post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5451980&mesg_id=5453502

[jbnow]

104. Since you repeated your post

I will repeat mine that was meant to be in response to yours.

HOW you select which word of God is the word of God is what is bullshit. Now I am really, really annoyed. Here is what I said.

Oh please, how do you choose what abominations to God are abominable and still an abomination?

Yes, men who lay with men are called an "abomination to god" in the Old testament. (Women who lay with women are never mentioned) So are the loathsome shellfish eaters or those who sit in a chair a menstruating woman sat on or even those who work on Sundays. Most agree those are stupid.

But what about the things that do count? Dishonest business practices is called an abomination to God many times. Oppressive treatment of others and a haughty attitude are an abomination to him.

These six things doth the LORD hate:
yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies,
and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Those who justify the wicked or condemn the just as "abominations". I could go on but you get the idea.

People feel so smug saying "God said it, not me". Just BULL!
They pick out one thing, gay men (and stretch it to include gay women) and preach it and judge by it, pronounce in as the word of God.

Doesn't matter that Jesus didn't mention it. And the ones that DO matter just aren't mentioned as Christian virtue anymore, as things that God hate even though Jesus preached about them too.

So let us cheat each other for money and shed innocent blood and lie and all that, but you get to heaven if you denounce gay sex. Ain't that holy.

It disgusts me and I am not Christian and I am not gay.

[Occulus]

77. Uh-huh. Sure. n/t

[bluedawg12]

53. Wrong, he doesn't judge gays either. he is consistent in his

non- judgmental message. Amazing for a modern day preacher.

[FreedomAngel82]

75. I haven't heard enough of him to know

Does anyone know if he's ever mentioned that?

[KittyWampus]

134. Wow! Spouting Stereotypes While Accusing Someone Else Of Spouting

stereotypes with no proof whatsoever.

[Zhade]

142. Are you actually defending this homophobic bigot?

NT!

[johnaries]

22. He's not judging other people?!?!? Show me in the Bible it says

not to judge other people!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, here it is, judge not lest ye be judged. Never mind.

[Tsiyu]

23. What these preachers are REALLY angry about

is that Rev OSteen leaves the decision of grace up to his GOD.

Why do those red-faced preachers rage? Their man-made rules are scorned, that's why. THEY want to say who gets eternal life, as if each one is his own personal Jesus.

They don't even believe their own bible, which clearly shows Jesus on the cross saying to one of two criminals dying alongside him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise."

If Jesus could pardon such a person at such a late time (the man's death is imminent) why should anyone decide for anyone else who is going to heaven and who is not? What makes anybody feel that "special?"

That's why Christianity is such a fake religion for me. I am not bashing those who truly follow Jesus, but when you take it upon yourself to judge, hurt or kill someone in God's name, Jesus completely and utterly failed.

[NYC Liberal]

27. These preachers have all become what Jesus came to reject in the

first place. He threw out the man-made laws because the religious leaders were enforcing the letter not the spirit of the "law." Now these preachers are doing just exactly that.

[journalist3072]

31. I would be very careful in

Classifying them into all one group. I think we get into a very dangerous game, when we say that "everyone is this way...." or that an entire group of people exhibits certain behaviors.

There are always exceptions. And as a Christian, although I am deeply disappointed in many Churches of today, there are some excellent ministers out here---Ministers to are totally committed to teaching the unadulterated word of God.

And I think Rev. Osteen is a wonderful example of that.

[TankLV]

41. So tell us all, what exactly is th "uadulterated word of god"?

Do you know which language it was first written?

How many translations has it had to go thru to get to english?

Which version of the bible is the official "word of god"?

How do you know that this KRAP they are all spewing was translated EXACTLY and CORRECTLY?

You can't.

Man is fallible, not perfect.

There is no such thing as the "unadulterated word of god". Never was, never can be.

[BiggJawn]

151. That's an EASY one!

It's whatever version of "The WORD of GAWD" our dear correspondent's Pastor is using.

That's why there's over 600 different flavours of Christianity, every different one thinks THEY "teach the TRUE Word" and everyone else teaches false doctrine...

And I'll remind everyone here that a rigid believe that YOUR particular flavour HAS that "unadulterated Word" is one of the tennents of Fundamentalism.

I'm waiting for our friend to state "Well, OK, then. But *I'M* gonna be sitting in Heaven watching all of YOU roast in Hell after Judgement Day! So THERE!"

[Tsiyu]

84. YOU need to be careful

to stop repeating what you read or hear some preacher say.

You need to study the history of your chosen "Holy Word" and respect the fact that others have their own versions of the "Holy Word" and that you live in a nation where this is the LAW of the Land: that all may worship here.

I do not believe what you believe. I believe that your views are the abomination. Look at your own judgement of others based on what you call "The Word." Are you a biblical scholar? Show us your credentials here.

If not, don't tell me what THE BOBBLE SEZ. I know what it says much better than you do, IMHO.

[journalist3072]

110. I'm an abomination because I believe in Jesus Christ....

And I believe that he is the Son of God?

Well, if that's your definition of being an abomination, them I'm glad to be one!

[Tsiyu]

121. No, your VIEWS are the abomination

If you call someone else's private life an abomination, that means that you are spending way too much time worrying about someone else's bed. You should be reading what Jesus said instead.

BTW, he never said one word about homosexuality. What does this mean to your Christian soul?

[BiggJawn]

152. Uh-Oh...Running out of steam....

No, your BOOK is an "Abomination", but you haven't been able to get hold of "Pastor" to find out what to do next so you have to fall back on the "Hate my BOOK , hate ME" defense.

Here's my piece:

Anyone who actually sits down and READS that book, and are not disgusted and confused by the shear ILLOGIC of what they read there, and HORRIFIED at the conduct of their "God", I question that person's mental faculties.

[FreedomAngel82]

90. Exactly

Sadly nothing has changed.

[FreedomAngel82]

113. Yes

I believe that he is the type of person who writes positive books for your life and not hate books or anything like that. I think his sermons are that way too. That's how my preacher is. He's never preached hate against anyone else or anything like that with politics. He's always preached about things that can be applied to my personal life which is how church, to me, should be.

[stepnw1f]

25. awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[journalist3072]

29. I love Joel Osteen

I try to catch is program every Sunday. And if I every visit Texas, I will most definitely visit his church.

He just radiates peace and posivity, and true Christian principles.

[jbnow]

30. Almost amusing on that site that they

start their rant with quoting Matthew

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Hello! And have they considered the fruits of the spirit and what kind of fruit they bear?
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law

They are the best witnesses against themselves.

[TankLV]

42. Ya got that right!

[laureloak]

45. I just heard that line on the radio or TV in the last couple of days.

"I can't judge what's in somebody else's heart".

I think it was an old movie (30's - 40's), possibly "Rebecca". Yes, I believe it was when DeWinter was in court.

[0007]

47. This is a classic..."There is definitely no interesting people in heaven"

It doesn't come to my mind right now who said this little saying. Do you know?

Christians have been spiritually malnourished with a steady and unrelenting diet of "judge not, that ye be not judged. . .," tolerant, inclusive "junk food" doctrine until they are completely void of any spiritual discernment. May I remind you in Matthew 7 where the popular "judge not, that ye be not judged. . ." mantra occurs contains the harshest warning in the Bible exposing false prophets and exercising personal spiritual discernment. The Lord Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 provides the most enlightening and frightening warning found in all the scriptures. Many (not a few) people that openly call Jesus "Lord, Lord. . ." and many that "prophesy in thy name. . ." and ". . . cast out devils. . ." and in the name of Jesus Christ perform "many wonderful (not hateful, but nice, sweet) works. . ."? Jesus will utter "I NEVER knew you." They were never saved. If they were ever saved?Jesus could not say, I NEVER knew you. Despite their "many wonderful works" in the name of Jesus, despite calling Him "Lord, Lord"?Jesus Christ will cast them into an eternal lake of fire, calling them "ye that work iniquity."

[rosesaylavee]

60. When I was growing up, my folks used the

judge not phrase to remind us that there is no way we can know what another is thinking or why they do what they do. I just thought that that was the way to interpret those lines.

Humility is no longer a virtue with the new Christianity.

[FreedomAngel82]

92. I've always took that passage

as I'm the only person who can control my life. If I'm judging someone else than they're going to judge me back. What someone does with their life shouldn't be any of my business as in what the fundies do and say everyone is going to hell if they don't do this, this and that. People have the freewill to do what they want and believe in what they want. You can't force anybody to believe what you do. That's where I get so upset with the fundie types. My religion is for my personal life and as it should be. I can worship God, since I believe, as I see fit and what makes me comfortable.

[FreedomAngel82]

118. Oh yes

I think this is the second time where he was really angry about something and showed it. The other time was the money changers in the church. But I think this is important too. He states "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of God." So that gives me a nice thought bubble when Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson and even George Bush all get to their judgment day they will be in for a surprise! Plus, George Bush has done all the seven deadly sins as mentioned earlier and they're supporting him. I wouldn't want to be them.

[bluedawg12]

54. He has the fastest growing church in the country, he is

ever up beat and never mean, and not judgmental.

I catch his Sunday morning show and enjoy it. His is a practicle message on how to live a good life.

Maybe his success is a message to the current plague of locust hate mongers, and angry,red faced, spittle covered foaming lunatics.

[FreedomAngel82]

119. Oh good

I think people in general are getting tired of gloom, doom, negativity etc. I remember after the democrats won New Jersey and Virgina there was a report I saw online about negative campaigning and people were getting tired of it. I think people want what Mr. Osteen is offering. :)

[lonestarnot]

64. No one put him incharge as judge and jury, and he's refusing to be put

in that box is he... well my hat is off to him.

[FreedomAngel82]

70. Good for him!

I'm happy about that! That's how it should be. I get so tired of all the fundies going around and claiming all these different people are going to hell. How do they know they're not going to hell? Oy!

[depakid]

72. These people are insane

When I read things like what's on that link, I realize just how wise it was for the founding fathers to create a wall between church and state.

It almost makes me ponder whether or not there ought to be some sort of religious test to keep these types OUT of government entirely-

[lovelaureng]

81. I really appreciate him.

He gives me hope for religion and spirituality. I highly recommend his book, "Your Best Life Now". His attitude is refreshing.

[rucky]

98. Osteen saved my in-laws from the evil clutches of the 700 Club.

they just feel better after they watch him. they were sick of Pat Roberston making them feel angry.

[FreedomAngel82]

120. Yay!

Now maybe more people will watch him than Robertson and I've never heard of Mr. Osteen asking for people's money either and than turn around and invest in diamonds.

[Dances with Cats]

101. Joel Osteen

is my new favorite preacher! God bless him!

[LaurenG]

108. I just love that guy

He said he couldn't judge. He was partially raised in India. How could a thinking man condemn his childood buddies to hell? I'm all over that. It just isn't true and he knows it.

[KittyWampus]

135. Yup, his Daddy was a minister all over the world IIRC, Joel's seen lots

and learned lots and kept an open, loving mind.

Note: he has a revolving globe on the stage behind him.

I really appreciate what someone said a bit upthread- after hearing him people will feel upbeat and positive while after hearing Robertson or Dobson types you just feel angry.

Joel's not my cup of tea... too simplistic... but his message is useful and unifying. I'm glad he's successful. Maybe he'll start the movement away from the divisive rabble rousers.

[julialnyc]

109. I pre-judged Rev Joel Osteen, but saw his book at my liberal bosses

desk and she explained to me what she got out of his preaching.


It seems like he is a positive thinker and bases his preaching in kindness rather than fear.

I realized I was quick to judge him because preachers have turned me off for the most past (most of the ones who get air time worship themselves and love condemning others). Joel is different.

[Bouncy Ball]

112. Oh my gosh he's so, like, totally going to hell for that!!!

:evilgrin:

[Initech]

116. I wish there were more preachers like Osteen around!

Bravo! :clap:

[FreedomAngel82]

122. Me too

Plus he is cute. :)

(Him and his wife)

[Enraged_Ape]

129. The Osteens were once clients of a small company I worked at

This was when "Daddy" Osteen was still alive and Joel was in charge of Lakewood Church's television ministry. They ARE good people. At least, I really enjoyed working with them. They were very nice and good-humored, not fake and nasty like a lot of fundies.

I must admit that as cynical an SOB as I am, I have watched Joel's show several times. He always has something pertinent to some issue going on in my life, and I always walk away feeling better. That is what a preacher is really SUPPOSED to do.

Kudos to Joel. I think he does a great job.

[flamingyouth]

132. I like Joel very much.

So do my parents. He's a breath of fresh air, if you ask me. I've gotten a lot out of his programs, which I watch regularly, as well as his book.

[Goldensilence]

139. this has always confused me.

why would Jesus need to die for our sins when "god" created us "imperfect"? This to me is the greatest fallcy of itself. Everything else in creation is perfect but not us...is this why at the core of things why i think fundies are bent on "saving" others.From hell? From "god's" fury? Your God is still angry $h!t man after 2000 years he's still pised. BTW no you can't drop the old testament. That's like saying oh wow look this house is so great...but i want the foundation gone. Sorry doesn't work.

Aren't we all "god's" children not just exclusively Jesus? So aren't you his son or daughter now? Always been? What makes you less then Jesus? Also this confused me...is Jesus God in man form or just like....his born of a virgin son? If it's God then ....why does he need to come in a man's form is he is all omnipotent? Wouldn't he already know?

Tell me why no other historical text names Jesus. Because as far as i know the bible is the only therefore making the circular argument the bible says so. Furthermore i have no reason to believe he existed. Mithrasism?

IF "god" is all powerful how come he lost a wrestling match to jacob? He can rain fire and destruction upon mankind for his disobience but not win a simple wrestling match?

ths biggest question to me overall is....ok so Jesus is supposed to come back....and we get armageddon?! I was thinking maybe a parade...some confetti? A party of some sort?

[plasticwidow]

146. You would like Islam,... :)

Because we ask many of the same questions.

In Islam there is no original sin, therefore no need for a bloody sacrifice of the supposed Son of God upon a cross. God IS omnipotent and all merciful, and therefor it can forgive anyone of anything it desires.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is just a man, born under the unusual circumstance of his mother's virginity, created purely by the Will of God. And chosen to give a message of the Oneness of God and its love for humanity and the need of humanity to learn to love each other, despite all our flaws, just as God does.

All of creation is imperfect, this creation was not made to be perfect. And God understands its creation and cherishes it.

Also, Islam doesn't buy the "wrestling match" thing. God has no body to wrestle with and God has no need to rest on the 7th day. God is without human needs, and never tires and is ever watchful and ever loving of its creation.

Peace !!

[Zhade]

140. He does, however, say all other beliefs are wrong but his.

Granted, he back-pedals away from that, but his initial reaction was "they're wrong, I'm right".

I'm seen far more liberal believers here at DU that put this guy to shame.

[saigon68]

147. KICK

[Ian David]

148. Apparently he and his wife aren't very good air travelers

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3538956.html

"She was just abusive," said Sheila Steele, who said she was sitting behind Victoria Osteen. "She was just like one of those divas."

snip

Steele said Victoria Osteen was upset about liquid on her pull-down tray and asked a flight attendant to have it cleaned. When the attendant, who was carrying paperwork to the cockpit, told her she couldn't do it immediately, Osteen replied, "Fine, get me a stewardess who can," Steele said.

She said Victoria Osteen pushed a flight attendant and tried to get into the cockpit. During the incident, Joel Osteen — who preaches to an estimated 30,000 each weekend — stayed with the couple's two children and did not get involved, Steele said.

snip

Steele said she and other passengers were upset that they had to wait about two hours while the Osteens' baggage was removed from the plane.


See related thread:

Houston pastor Osteen, family kicked off flight (runs largest US church)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1998658&mesg_id=1999617