Are Christians self-destructing?

[GOPFighter]

As an atheist Christmas is no longer a religious holiday for me. But having been raised in a Christian home, Christmas carols and Christmas decorations bring back happy childhood memories of gifts, decorating the Christmas tree, singing carols in the car as we drove downtown looking at the store windows, the big family dinner, and the pleasant exhaustion we all felt as the light of day waned.

In those days the theme of Christmas was "Peace on Earth, Goodwill To Men" The newspapers were full of stories about Jews volunteering to work at hospitals, manning the police phones, etc. so Christians could spend this very special day with their families. It seemed as though people bent over backward to be kind and considerate of other's feelings and religious beliefs. Even my freaky fundy parents taught us to outwardly respect the beliefs of others.

So even as an atheist, I've always looked forward to Christmas, looked forward to the music and decorations, the first snow, the excited kids, the day off to spend with family, and especially the theme of tolerance and peace on earth.

Granted, many Christians have long felt disgusted at the crass commercialization of Christmas (and they aren't alone). So it should surprise no one to find that a rebellion of sorts has been building for the last few years among Christians. What might be surprising, however, is the focus of that anger.

Is this new anger directed at stores that put their Christmas decorations up way too soon? No. Are they angry at stores that go overboard pushing glitz and expensive gifts? No. The target of their anger? They are angry at stores that refuse to greet them with "Merry Christmas"! They are furious that they can't turn public parks and courthouses and schools into Christian celebrations of Christmas, and by God they're gonna' sue just as soon as they pack the rest of the courts! Gone is Peace on Earth, Goodwill to Men. Gone is any consideration for other's feelings and religious beliefs. The new Christian ethic seems to be, "We're the majority here and if "Merry Christmas" offends you, screw you. We don't really care if we offend those considerate non-Christians who volunteer to work in our place on Christmas, because we're the majority in this country and everyone else can suck hind tit."

To this writer, it seems like the Christians of this nation are hell-bent on making everyone as miserable as they obviously are. There is no such thing as "live and let live" anymore, no such thing as brotherhood and working together and respect for others. The movement is being pushed by angry, miserable people who want everyone to feel the same way. Does anyone believe Bill O'Reilly is a happy Christian with his angry rants about the liberal agenda to force Christ out of Christmas? When I see Bill ranting on this subject I can't help but think that the Christians in America are self destructing.

[beam me up scottie]

1. You hit the nail on the head.

Bravo.

I too loved Christmas as a kid, and we weren't christians.

I still have nothing against the holiday.

I haven't been able to put my finger on why I get so angry at the idiots who blame "godless" secularism for destroying it, but you explained it beautifully.

[beam me up scottie]

2. Recommended. n/t

[Erika]

3. It's W's fascists (non) Christians who are forcing this agenda

The O'Reillys who encourage the terrorists to attack SF.

Most people are very jovial in saying "Happy Holidays" and just giving a feeling of acceptance and merriment to the others. The Christian theocrats, and the entertainment whores like O'Reilly, want to turn the season's good will into a hate fest.

[rudeboy666]

4. 'Christians'..........the brush is too broad

[GOPFighter]

8. I hope you're right

But if so I would expect a LOT of flack from dissenting Christians - enough to shut him up. It hasn't happened.

[Lerkfish]

19. you want liberal christians to be as loud and overbearing as RW christians

in attempting to silence RW christians?

You expect a LOT of flack, enough to shut him up.

can you be more specific about what types of controlling in your face shutting down of another person's actions you wish liberal christians to undertake?

because once we do that to the RW christians, and we get good at it, we're coming after you atheists with the same tactics to shut you up and enforce our point of view on you...making into the RW fascist christians you expect us to fight.


let me know when you want us to start directing everyone else's behaviour, because that's going to have to involve a big shift in our religion to the far right.

be careful what you wish for.

[GOPFighter]

22. What I meant was....

...this has obviously gotten a lot of traction among Christians, because O'Reilly's drumbeat seems to get louder every year. My wife is a devout Catholic, and a liberal, and she finds it harder to attend Mass every year, because the Catholic hierarchy is obviously trying the wrench the church back to the right, causing dissension in the church.

It is up to everyone who is offended by O'Reilly's tactics, not just liberal Christians, to let him know his divisive tactics are ruining what used to be a holiday season of tolerance and peace.

As for liberal Christians coming after atheists, uh, let's just say we're not shaking in our boots. We've been dissed by the pros over the years. The word "atheist" still manages to stop polite conversation at parties and scares little children. It takes a lot of guts to admit publicly that you're an atheist. No offense intended, but I don't think that threats of further retaliation from any sector are going to scare us much. Or shut us up. :)

[Lerkfish]

35. my point sailed over your head completely.

I didn't think I needed a sarcasm smiley.
Apparently I do.
reread my post again with the knowledge that I was being sarcastic about what you were asking us to do: control the behavior of another group. To make my point, I posited what if we did that to YOUR group, would you like that?

this is the fundamental (pun intended) difference between right wing christians and liberal christians: right wing christians believe they have the right and the authority to judge you and tell you how you should live. Liberal christians do not believe they have the authority to order others about or "shut them up".

IF you understand the difference, you'd understand why your suggestion is inappropriate.

[ingac70]

5. Their ranks are shrinking and they are desperate to hang on....

At least the ones who aren't secure in their own faith are.

I celebrate Christmas... and decorate my house in nothing but snow men, Santa Claus and all that Pagan greenery for the winter Solstice.

And I tell all the fundies I know "Happy Kwanzaa" . When they say it is a made up holiday, I just respond that back in 326 C.E. some Roman guy probably said "Christmas??? Constantine made that shit up last year!".


Although I was thinking about saving all that work and start celebrating Festivus.

[mestup]

6. This could be a "rebirth" for American Christians.

Sincere Christians who practice a faith of love and tolerance may be reaching a point where they're ready to kick the fundie nutjobs out.

And that would be a good thing.

[DanCa]

9. Well as one who was excummunicated for speaking out

I cant do it by myself. I also dont think a branch of christianity can do it on thier own. What I would like to see is a bunch of us on du is to show up at fred phelps church, or the bishops council or outside the tv headquarters of the seven hundred club. What the left must do is put aside thier differences, realized theyre politically on the same side, and protest the right wing nuts on thier own turf.

[salvorhardin]

11. It'd be great if a large group of liberal Christains

could pull a modern day Martin Luther.

[DanCa]

7. I know what you mean christmas doesn't mean the same thing.

I have even noticed that some weeks i go through the motions of attending mass and not the spirit. It is the orielly scum sucking prolifer base of the gop that's running all the fun of the holliday.
With that said I'll still buy gifts for my nieces and nephews but I wont attend a rw wing christmass eve mass. God I hate the gop if they would keep thier mouths shut the other tweleve months of the year everything would be honky dorey wouldn't it? Oh and personally I wouldn't mind not seeing a mall santa The bell ringing is so freakin annoying.
Note am not mad at the good liberal christians on this page. It's just the Bill DOnahue Fred Phelp, Pat Roberstson Jerry Fawells of the world I cant stand.

[Hapameli]

10. ALL Bush-worshippers are imploding... Two of my RW relatives have been

duking it out. Their fantasy worlds that they constructed around themselves is crumbling with the entire Republican party. They have them so programmed, they're beginning to have massive malfunctions.

Feel sorry for them, their world is coming to an end. Of course, it sure seemed that way for us last November, didn't it? Didn't take long for karma to take action.

[rucky]

12. Well, you got the "destructing" part right.

I see no signs of it letting up, though. They'll just move on to the next thing to ruin.

Here's my dilhemma: My wife runs a boutique in one of those picture-perfect midwestern mainstreet towns. This is undoubetly a "Christian" community, and I can't help but think how much business we're losing because a) we're open on Sundays, b) we were under pressure by the "main street business assoc. to put up our christmas stuff this weekend. c) I'm Jewish. I can live with giving customers a "Merry Christmas", but "Happy Holidays" carries the same sentiment and rolls more comfortable off the tounge for me and wife.

This is our first year in business, and I'm really worried that our really cool kids' store is going to be the object of Wal-Mart shopping fundie ire. We REALLY need a good holiday to stay in business the first year. We need these wackos as customers, but we don't want to jump through their ridiculous hoops to get it.

Send some good athestic vibes our way!

[GOPFighter]

23. I suspect that before the O'Reilly offensive...

..few of your customers would have even noticed that you said Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas. O'Reilly and his ilk have now turned "Happy Holidays" into an affront to Christians. It's a damn shame that as a Jew you are being coerced into "acting Christian," which of course leads the community into concluding "We're a Christian town so why do we need to worry about offending anyone with public Christmas displays and religious carols in the school?"

If I lived anywhere near you (I live in the east) I would drive far out of my way to patronize your store. I hope you and millions of other small stores like you have a profitable holiday season.

[Jamastiene]

13. Now, it's more like "Piss on Earth, God help you if you touch the last

Tickle Me Elmo doll." I called it. Go get your own.

[emanymton]

14. Me Thinks You Mix Internal Beliefs With Outward Displays Of Foolishness..

One is a Christian when one believes and follows the teachings. What others say or do does not have to mean one follows them. Belief is within one.

One faces one's God alone.

[lostnfound]

15. The humility and poverty parts definitely seem under-exercised.

IIRC, in my Catholic elementary school we had discussions about the New Testament counselling us to give away all of our possessions or at least share what we own, and about the communitarian (or collective) habits of Jesus' followers.

[CatholicEdHead]

16. So true, espically in the RCC

with the main part in power more intrested in the regalness, "scanity" of the ceremony. They are pushing the old "pay and pray" model. Be a good Catholic by the number of times you hit church and say the right prayers at the right time with the right tithe.

[rosesaylavee]

17. Everything comes full cycle...

I think the angry christians you describe are going to burn themselves out. No one wants to be around them and once they realize that fear and anger won't hold their flock in their churches long enough to collect their weekly contribution, they will reassess and crawl back into the woodwork for another day.

I am not christian tho raised a Roman Catholic. I am now a theist/borderline-atheist who attends Unitarian Universalist services. Somewhat ironically, when Christmas finances allow, we try to attend a choral concert of Handel's Messiah. For me it is inspiring as it celebrates the hope of humanity - a ideal that we strive for. That's the christianity I grew up with it and the element of the Christmas season I search for every year.

My advice is not to look to the stores or the media or really anyone outside of your circle of friends and family to frame your holiday experience... choose what you want to do this season and what will feed your soul.

[jody]

18. Are Christians self-destructing or are all religions metamorphosing into

systems of belief that incorporate our expanding knowledge of science and the universe?

Could recent Vatican statements about evolution and ID be just one small step in that direction?

[heidler1]

31. I've thought that view was in what some Catholic Bishops said lately.

They got burned pretty bad over Galileo and Copernicus.

[blossomstar]

20. Thank you for this well written post!

I am a Christian, but these right wing, pushy, greedy, hate mongering christians have filled America's churches. I no longer attend church as I am afraid that I will stand up and leave (making a scene) or worse make a loud statement when they start up their politics of hate in the pulpit. Jesus was a man of peace, he despised the moneychangers, he was not pushy but a man that lived the life we should strive for. Where is the tolerance and respect for others? Gone. America is disgusting me! Our diversity is what always made us strong! Our forefathers gave their very blood for the right to worship freely! God, Please help America see the wrong path it has taken and THANK YOU GOD for DU!!!!

[brer cat]

21. I respect your views as an atheist.

I wish that you would respect the views of others and not paint with such a broad brush. I am a liberal, inclusive, peace-loving follower of the message of Christ. In no way do I resemble the right-wing rabid fundamentalists who are indeed "miserable people."

I too deplore the crass commercialism of this season, and the attempts of a very vocal minority of people to require that all people celebrate Christmas. In my shop, I do not greet customers with "Merry Christmas" because I fervently pray that my visitors include Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and atheists who will simply have a holiday from work on Dec. 25th to spend a day with family.

"Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward Men" isn't a religious statement, it doesn't belong to any political party, or to any specific nation. It is a blessing to be shared among those of us who have very diverse backgrounds and beliefs, yet who share a common commitment to live peacefully with our neighbors, with tolerance, respect and compassion for all people.

[GOPFighter]

24. Welcome brer cat

And thank you for your gutsy decision to conciously be inclusive in your shop. While Peace on Earth, Goodwill Toward Men is not a religious statement, it is a statement of tolerence, and in Christmases past was embraced by almost all Christians (or seemed to be).

[glitch]

26. "Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward All"

I like to include everthing and everyone, not just humans.

Edit: (forgot why I posted) Welcome to DU!

[brer cat]

33. Thanks for the correction. Good Will toward ALL!

[tomreedtoon]

36. I'd like "Peace on Earth to people of good will."

I can't testify to the good will of animals in general, since few of them seem to live in peace of any kind (and that's among other animals). But I think that people of good will - yeah, a non-sexist phrase, so sue me - opens it up to the beings who can demonstrate good will by their actions and choices.

And, you'll note, it does put an impetus on people to BE of good will. Those who don't wish to be of good will (I'm sure you can think of a few examples) have opted out of the peace part.

[buddysmellgood]

25. I think you need to better define "Christian" in your post. By my

definition, many who claim to be "Christian" are not. In fact, some of the best Christians I know are atheists. By my definition, anyone who knowingly or not, lives their life by the ethic of Christ, could claim to be a Christian. This excludes Dubya and his ilk, the gay haters, the fear mongers, the Falwells. It's not enough to simpy say "I'm a Christian." That doesn't cut it.

[heidler1]

37. Your point is valid to me. Christians do not have exclusive use of th

Beatitudes, which if they and others practiced would solve most of the World's problems.

[LaurenG]

27. I share similar memories

The problem as I see it is the entire population of earth is undergoing very intense change.

People are fighting to hold onto something that isn't real, it never was. They want to stop change, they want no differences and they are ALL AFRAID.

There are decent people of all religions and then you have the Taliban in its myriad forms. People who are afraid will grip even tighter to prevent them from losing any power or control. Christianity will come out of this a better religion. I am certain of it.

Step back and look at what the neocons have done to religion, to our country and to our world. No one in their right mind believes that what is happening is for the good of anyone except those few who benefit financially. They rest aren't paying attention and don't even see what is happening. In the meantime, don't believe for one second that true followers of Christ don't see through the wickedness. Truth has a way of rearing it's head in the most unexpected ways. The fall of the UN-Christian empire has begun, stay tuned.

[More Than A Feeling]

28. A lot of Christians have gotten way too culturally comfortable

I include myself, in a different way. They got used to being top dog. I think when things started changing and other religions and ways of life became larger and more visible, a lot of the assumptions that Christians had enjoyed started breaking down. Now they are being very noisy about it.

My take on it? Christians were never meant to be culturally comfortable. We're supposed to go against the grain. Furthermore, we're supposed to be happy about it, because we get major props from God when society gets angry when it is called on its poor treatment of outcasts and rejects.

Not that many Christians aren't perpetrating that poor treatment. So it is no surprise that they are squawking just like society.

[trotsky]

29. Great post.

Very, very true. The Christians that seem to have the most control over the media and government right now have to SOMEHOW portray themselves as persecuted victims, and having to respect others' beliefs during the solstice is about the best they can come up with. (Next to not being able to lead prayers over the PA in school, I guess.)

[shrike]

30. Doesn't happen around here

Yes, I realize that 'here' isn't everywhere.

I don't watch Bill O'Reilly, and didn't realize he's been railing about Christmas. But just because he is doesn't mean we're self-destructing.

Our society IS changing, though. Think there's probably a lot of reasons. I see it everyday -- the downright meanness of us all. And I see it in every race, creed and whatever -- that even goes for secular, non-religious peace activists who aren't exactly peaceful towards their fellow man, except when they're protesting the war.

I remember reading the book, "Suits Me," about a woman who lived as a male jazz musician for much of her adult life. When talking to 'her' peers, the author wanted to know why no one ever questioned her obvious androgyny, the hints she was not what she seemed. One of the interviewees said bluntly that it was because the "meanness" that exists in this country now didn't exist then.

I love Christmas, bts. My husband, an agnostic, hates Christmas. But not because of the religious implications -- he hates the decorations, traffic, all of it. Save for the traffic, I love all of it and he knows by now that he'd better get out of my way.

[brainshrub]

32. In a word: No.

Do you think this behavior is anything new? Fundamentalists have been engaged in this kind of behavior for centuries!

Fundamentalism was here before us, and people will kill and die for their cloud-being long after we are gone.

[bloom]

34. That is the problem with O'Reilly,etc. having so much air-time & influence

So much of the country becomes toxic - just like him/them.

And it does unfortunately reflect on all Christians - whether they like it or agree with him/them or not.

[NAO]

38. No, they are trying to destroy us! Dominionism, Theocracy, Evangelism

Christianity is the Creeping Chaos that is spreading and engulfing our culture in primitive superstitions. They have elucidated their goals, and are achieving them on schedule.

The People of Reason need to wake up and realize that our nation is under attack. We need to aggressively combat their superstitions, and expose the preposterous, irrational, utterly unsupported assertions of their dogmas. We need to beat them back into the Dark Ages, where they belong. They were bitch-slapped pretty good by Reason during The Enlightenment - we can - we must do it again.

Freedom From Religion Foundation
http://ffrf.org

Toward a New Enlightenment
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/events/post-con.html

Council for Secular Humanism
http://www.secularhumanism.org

Internet Infidels - The Secular Web
http://www.infidels.org

****
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Dominionism's Radical Agenda

Fundamentalist Radical Clerics such as Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson are not merely medieval throwbacks or misguided religious hacks. They are part of a well organized subversionary movement known as "Dominionism".

Dominionism constitutes a serious threat to American Democracy. These Radical Clerics have developed and are executing a detailed plan to gradually replace the free, secular democratic society of the United States with a Theocracy.

It is critical that people become aware of the extreme agenda these people have for the United States and ultimately for the world. The results of the 2004 Presidential Election were not a fluke or something that was drummed up over a period of months. It has been in planning for over 20 years, and what we are seeing take place now is, in the words of Katherine Yurica, "the swift advance of a planned coup".

The articles below are critical for understanding the Dominionist movement; for realizing how real and how detailed their plans are; and to become aware of how far they have come toward achieving their goals.

The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup: Conquering by Stealth and Deception - How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

Video on the Christian Reconstructionist Dominionist Theocratic Agenda
http://www.theocracywatch.org/av/video_dominion.ram

The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party
a public information project from TheocracyWatch.org
http://www.theocracywatch.org

The Yurica Report - News, Intelligence, Analysis
http://www.yuricareport.com

The Religious Right - An Anti-American Terrorist Movement
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8816.htm