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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 06:53 PM
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The Meaningfulness of Lives
September 11, 2011, 5:45 pm

By TODD MAY

Who among us has not asked whether his or her life is a meaningful one? Who has not wondered — on a sleepless night, during a long stretch of dull or taxing work, or when a troubled child seems a greater burden than one can bear — whether in the end it all adds up to anything? On this day, too, when many are steeped in painful reminders of personal loss, it is natural to wonder about the answers.

The philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre thought that, without God, our lives are bereft of meaning. He tells us in his essay “Existentialism,” “if God does not exist, we find no values or commands to turn to which legitimize our conduct. So, in the bright realm of values, we have no excuse behind us, nor justification before us.” On this view, God gives our lives the values upon which meaning rests. And if God does not exist, as Sartre claims, our lives can have only the meaning we confer upon them.

This seems wrong on two counts. First, why would the existence of God guarantee the meaningfulness of each of our lives? Is a life of unremitting drudgery or unrequited struggle really redeemed if there’s a larger plan, one to which we have no access, into which it fits? That would be small compensation for a life that would otherwise feel like a waste — a point not lost on thinkers like Karl Marx, who called religion the “opium of the people.” Moreover, does God actually ground the values by which we live? Do we not, as Plato recognized 2500 years ago, already have to think of those values as good in order to ascribe them to God?

Second, and more pointedly, must the meaningfulness of our lives depend on the existence of God? Must meaning rely upon articles of faith? Basing life’s meaningfulness on the existence of a deity not only leaves all atheists out of the picture; it leaves different believers out of one another’s picture. What seems called for is an approach to thinking about meaning that can draw us together, one that exists alongside or instead of religious views.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/11/the-meaningfulness-of-lives/?ref=religionandbelief
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Did you live a meaningful life?" is the wrong question
The right question is, did you find your life meaningful?
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's just the difference between the subjective and the objective.
Which raises further questions about human interaction and values.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Objective is an illusion
Subjective is a farce

Either way, all that matters to YOU is that YOU felt you lived a meaningful life

Yes, I realize this leaves Hitler dying in a state of sublimation

But logic does not follow morality, only the opposite
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Give me some of that.
:smoke:
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. When you're dead, what's going to matter?
Answer: Nothing
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Your survivors.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yep, so if you have any empathy, make things as good for them as possible
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. Well, my life has meaning, that is to say value, to me...
...because it is all I have. I rather think it has value to my wife, friends and close relatives too. Beyond that, however, it is hard to see it. There are over seven billion of us right now and that does not include the line of ghosts that stand behind each of us. So without divinely-imposed meaning, it is hard to see in what sense our lives have value. I'm not even clear what value humanity collectively has--that is to say what difference we really make in the grand scheme of things. This is not an argument for divinely-imposed meaning, of course.

I do not mean to denigrate life generally or of any person. I just think the value is entitles subjective to our perspective. I don't really like the term "meaning" because--and know pun intended--it doesn't mean anything.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I expect each of our lives has meaning and impact to those around us.
Take one of them away and you know what their absence, and hence their presence, meant.

Beyond that small circle, "meaning" becames more abstract and ideological. That's how otherwise sane people go to war.

Maybe a start is realizing our small circles are constantly overlapping others'.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Knowing how strangers would feel if deprived of a loved one...
...or if forced to know a loved one was suffering is part of what makes me passionate about the things we talk about on this website. I always feel worse for those left behind than for those who are lost.
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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. would you prefer value or significance or purpose? nt
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Value or significance.
Similar meanings there. Value is more subjective. Significance just means importance and can be value-judgment neutral if one just means a main cause for some change.

Purpose begs the question: whose purpose? The purpose of life strongly suggests a divine creator because it essentially means a driving intent. Well, only thinking beings can intent anything. One may make one's own purpose, but then that is the purpose of one specific life, not life generally and it only touches on the activity of said life, not the origin of it.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-11 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. You create the meaning of your life. it is MADE, not found.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
12. Meaning beyond a small in-group is questionable indeed
Think of the greatest difference-makers in history. Think about what-if's of startling impact.

What if Alexander the Great had turned left instead of right after beating the Persians (no reason he would have, but what if)? Rome would have been a minor vassal city-state, and all it spawned would have been absent or very different.

What if Gavrilo Princip hadn't stopped for a sandwich after the planned attempt at assassinating Franz Ferdinand had failed? (the details here are truly staggering) World War I averted - or just delayed, or even exacerbated? No WWI is no Versailles is no German shame is no festering resentment against Jews...

What if Norman Borlaug had chosen, say, the ukulele over a science career? Hundreds of millions would have probably starved (incidentally if status in Heaven is given on the basis of proximal teleological benefit, this guy is an archangel at God's right hand - his actions saved more lives than Hitler's, Princip's, Stalin's, Pol Pot's and Mao's ended - combined).

Now think of the vast majority of us, reading this. What meaning do even these one-in-a-billion lives have for us? Perhaps without Rome our governments would look different. Without WWI perhaps many of us would be in Europe still not the US. Without Borlaug maybe we'd have a smaller China and India population. But what would that do to the meaning in our lives? Would we love or hate more or less? Care more or less about art or politics or faith? Doubtful - such things have endured epochal changes before.

The idea that there is some greater meaning in ANY human life - or any life which we can imagine - beyond striving for at least in-group benefit of probably limited impact and duration, is a combination of the anthropic principle and the unwillingness to accept mundane facts over grandiose lies. Anybody whose life matters to more than a handful is a great person. More than a few thousand is a historically great person whose name will be remembered by a few. More than a million will be a household name at least for a while (be honest - how many knew who Princip was - a man who changed the face of Europe forever less than a century ago. 10%? 50%?) But even they will cease to have any calculable or lasting meaning after a while. Think of this - Genghis Khan launched an empire 9 million square miles in expanse with 100 million people from Europe to the Sea of Japan and from Siberia to SE Asia, that lasted nigh two centuries. What different meaning would your life have had had he not existed? What different meaning would anyone's have right now?
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
13. May seriously misrepresents Sartre's position.
Existentialism is the first chapter in Sartre's Existentialism and Human Emotions. This is a brief excerpt from that first chapter, where I've bolded certain statements that I believe show that May is misrepresenting the context.

...

Actually, it is the least scandalous, the most austere of doctrines. It is intended
strictly for specialists and philosophers. Yet it can be defined easily. What
complicates matters is that there are two kinds of existentialist; first, those who
are Christian, among whom I would include Jaspers and Gabriel Marcel, both
Catholic; and on the other hand the atheistic existentialists, among whom I class
Heidegger, and then the French existentialists and myself. What they have in
common is that they think that existence precedes essence, or, if you prefer, that
subjectivity must be the starting point.

Just what does that mean? Let us consider some object that is manufactured, for
example, a book or a paper-cutter: here is an object which has been made by an
artisan whose inspiration came from a concept. He referred to the concept of what
a paper-cutter is and likewise to a known method of production, which is part of
the concept, something which is, by and large, a routine. Thus, the paper-cutter is
at once an object produced in a certain way and, on the other hand, one having a
specific use; and one can not postulate a man who produces a paper-cutter but
does not know what it is used for. Therefore, let us say that, for the paper-cutter,
essence--that is, the ensemble of both the production routines and the properties
which enable it to be both produced and defined--precedes existence. Thus, the
presence of the paper-cutter or book in front of me is determined. Therefore, we
have here a technical view of the world whereby it can be said that production
precedes existence.

...

If existence really does precede essence, there is no explaining things away by
reference to a fixed and given human nature. In other words, there is no
determinism, man is free, man is freedom. On the other hand, if God does not
exist, we find no values or commands to turn to which legitimize our conduct.
So,
in the bright realm of values, we have no excuse behind us, nor justification
before us. We are alone, with no excuses.

...

The third objection is the following: "You take something from one pocket and
put it into the other. That is, fundamentally, values aren't serious, since you
choose them." My answer to this is that I'm quite vexed that that's the way it is;
but if I've discarded God the Father, there has to be someone to invent values.
You've got to take things as they are. Moreover, to say that we invent values
means nothing else but this: life has no meaning a priori. Before you come alive,
life is nothing; it's up to you to give it a meaning, and value is nothing else but the
meaning that you choose.
In that way, you see, there is a possibility of creating a
human community.


In the final paragraph of that chapter, Sartre goes on to say: Rather, it declares that even if God did exist, that would change nothing.
There you've got our point of view. Not that we believe that God exists, but we think that the problem of His existence is not the issue.


Further, with his claim:

However, for a life to be meaningful, it must also be worthwhile. Engagement in a life of tiddlywinks does not rise to the level of a meaningful life, no matter how gripped one might be by the game.


May is imposing his values on humanity. I prefer Sartre's viewpoint that the individual determines what is valuable in his life. May is free not to spend his life engaged in tiddlywinks, but on what authority does he base his decision as to whether or not it is a worthwhile life for someone else? The individual should make his life meaningful to himself. No one is under any obligation to make his life appear meaningful to May.


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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. well thought out
This dates back to the old Socratic realist--nominalist argument. But it may be an argument without substance.
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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. Complete misrepresentation of
Sartre. In fact the essence of Existentialism is that we must find our own meaning. Not the artificial meaning proscribed by a nonexistent God.
Has he even read "No Exit".
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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. in the existentialist model, meaning is in the event.
Perhaps God is not prior or separate from the processes of life, but exists within them.
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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. As in evolution or cosmology
it seems that kind of God is superfluous and is an unnecessary addition to to an explanation.
Shoe-horning a Deity into something for no other purpose than find some justification for belief.
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Thats my opinion Donating Member (804 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. This is the kind of conversation
that makes r/t a vital and important resource for meaningful conversation. Many of us are happy to see the change and direction from simply trashing religion. Thanks to all who are participating.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Again, it's not your soapbox.
To quote a great American: "You whine like a mule!"
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-11 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
21. "Oh, my life is a waste? Well, f**k you. At least I enjoy it."
-Nate Fisher via Alan Ball

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