A Christian confronts my 13-year-old daughter

[kag]

My family had a marvelous vacation in the UK this summer. We stayed for a few days at a very touristy hotel with lots of international guests.

One morning my kids and I were eating breakfast at the hotel buffet, and having a lively discussion about religion. There was a couple sitting next to us who I could tell were, if not listening, at least hearing our conversation because they were close enough and they weren't talking to each other much.

Now if you've every read my journal you know that my children (now 13 and 15) tend toward Atheism, but still question, study and debate issues of religion. My daughter is a recent convert to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and my son simply likes to study different world religions, and revels opportunities to debate them.

Well, at one point in the conversation my daughter began a sentence, in an almost-inappropriately loud voice, with "The reason I'm an atheist is because..." and I don't even remember the rest of the sentence. I could feel more than see some raised eyebrows at the next table.

A few minutes later I asked my daughter to get me a drink of water from the buffet station about five feet behind her. When she returned to the table, my son and I noticed that the woman who had been at the next table stopped Natalie to talk to her.

When she got back, my son and I were practically crawling over the table to ask, "What'd she say? What'd she say!?"

"Well," my daughter answered, "I noticed she was wearing a cross on a chain around her neck, so I figured she was Christian. She just told me that God has performed many miracles in her life, so she knows that he is real. She just encouraged me to keep an opened mind about it." Bless my daughter's heart (so to speak) she just nodded politely, and came back to the table. I couldn't decide whether to be annoyed at the woman for confronting my daughter (after all, her admonition to "keep an open mind" was pretty innocuous), or just proud that Natalie handled it so well.

Before I could get another word out, my son fumed, "Mom! Next time let ME get you a glass of water!"

[grasswire]

1. what would your reaction be to this scenario if the woman had..

...been Buddhist? Or any other religion?

[alfredo]

11. Buddha is not a god, nor did he claim to be anything other than a man.

If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him

[kag]

14. Not sure why you want to know, but...

I suspect I would have reacted the same way I did with the Christian. At least I like to think I would have. Do you see some problem with my "reaction?"

[grasswire]

38. I think the word "confront" is not exactly descriptive.

And I can see anyone of another religion suggesting to your daughter that being open minded would be a good path, and that would not be a confrontation in my understanding of the word.

I have a twenty year old relative who used to make a habit of actually confronting Christians, asking them to defend their faith's inconsistencies. He got a kick out of it. He called himself an atheist, and was raised a Unitarian in an anti-Christian youth group. At age 14, at the state fair, he went to the religious booths and taunted the folks there. I was there. I watched it.

Then he spent high school with a best friend who is a Mormon. And the last two years, he has worked as camp counselor at a summer camp run by the local Catholic church entity. He now repudiates Unitarianism as "empty" and has a very open mind to all walks and faiths.

FWIW.

[Goblinmonger]

111. So if the roles had been reversed

and an atheist woman told a teen to keep an open mind about the fact that there is no god, I'm sure everyone would be cheering the atheist, too.

[dmallind]

124. Yes - parents would be absolutelty THRILLED if I did that to every teen making a Christian statement

I'm sure.

[cilla4progress]

114. I'm a Unitarian. It's not empty.

Perhaps he missed the message. Even more, I would contend that his is where he acquired his open minds towards other faiths, since this is what Unitarianism professes.

[cleanhippie]

115. A buddhist would never have done that, so the point is moot.

[Arugula Latte]

2. Deep down I think many of these people know religion is all a big scam

but they've invested so much in it being "true" they go out of their way to silence their own doubts bubbling up inside them by confronting others.

[saras]

17. When I was being trained in Christianity, this was taught EXPLICITLY to us

One of the best ways to strengthen your faith is to go out and testify to others. Being Baptist, we didn't have, need, or offer logical arguments. It was a matter of how strong your faith was.

[hamsterjill]

3. The woman was out of line to confront your daughter without asking your permission.

I'm a Christian, and I would NEVER do anything like that.

[Taverner]

42. Yup

[defendandprotect]

106. +1 --

[bighart]

4. Woulnd't exactly call that a confrontaion

[tblue]

5. It's very cool that your daughter is so grounded.

You can't stop everyone from trying to push their beliefs on others. The woman probably sincerely thought she was helping your daughter. Your daughter handled it with dignity and grace, way better than I would! lol@ Good for her and you for raising her so well.

[bighart]

6. Telling someone to keep an open mind

is trying to push ones own beliefs on them?

[tblue]

99. Depends on how it's done.

Especially to a child.

[bighart]

101. Doesn't sound lke that was the case from what the op says down thread.

[cleanhippie]

116. SO you would be ok if it had been a christian family having a conversation about god...

and an atheist woman stopped the daughter at the buffet and told her to "keep an open mind" about there not being a god?


Really?

[bighart]

122. If the situation where as described, yes it would be.

If you choose to involve others in your conversation, daughters statement made loud enough to draw attention, I see no issue with someone responding.

[cleanhippie]

126. Ok, fair enough. Hard to argue with that.

[bighart]

127. Thanks for the reasoned response.

The problem with drawing others into a conversation in this manner is that it can create a hostile reaction, warranted or not, from others.
In this case it certainly sounds like it was handled well by everyone involved and if I were Kag I would be proud of the way it was handled.

[hlthe2b]

7. An innocuous comment politiely delivered and you are upset?

I thought you were encouraging your kids to question on their own. Surely they will encounter any number of people with different belief systems. It sounds like she handled herself quite well. I'd personally be proud of that... :shrug:

Personally, I'd be upset at the suggestion that your son would have been less polite to the woman...

[kag]

30. Wow.

Okay, I'm getting a lot of unrecs for this. Look, people. I didn't climb out of the booth and grab my daughter and yell at the woman not to talk to her!!! I didn't even judge her! As I said in my OP (in other words), my gut reaction might have been to be angry at her, but I realized that her comments to my daughter were INNOCUOUS! So I did nothing!

Also, what on earth makes you think my son would be rude????????? He's a very polite, and actually rather shy, young man. He loves to talk about religion and debate issues of religion. If she had confronted him I would have expected him to be just as polite as my daughter, even though he may have engaged her in conversation rather than just walking away.

As I also stated--I WAS, AM, AND FOREVER WILL BE proud of both of my children. My daughter did the polite thing, and I complimented her for it.

Is there really some reason that you think I or any of my family did something wrong?

[hlthe2b]

40. You seem to contradict yourself...

You imply that you are proud at your son's insinuation that next time "he" would respond--presumably to put the "woman in her place"... While yiou state that you are admirably teaching your kids to question, you express alarm that they would encounter individuals with alternate belief systems and even more so that they might politely engage your child in a very mild discussion. Are you trying to teach your kids to be independent thinkers, while tolerant of the viewpoints of others? Or are you trying to teach them that only a "pure" belief in atheism is correct and that they should assert that belief to anyone who disagrees. Ironically-- the flip side of evangelical Christians... :shrug:

Your post seems to suggest the latter. Most of us here are questioning what exactly are you complaining about. No one CONFRONTED your child. They had a polite discussion with it and your daughter handled it well. What exactly is the issue? Why are you so concerned?

[kag]

52. I'M NOT COMPLAINING. I WASN'T OFFENDED. JEESH!

What OP did you read?

[leftyohiolib]

60. he sounds more anti-religion than atheist

[ZombieHorde]

86. Your interpretation of the OP is very different than mine. nt

[defendandprotect]

107. If the woman wanted to actually discuss religion, she should have come to the table, to the parents

and begun there --

[Taverner]

43. "I'm saved and better than you" is not innocuous

And BTW...innoculous is not a word

[hlthe2b]

58. that is not what the woman said...

nice straw man, however. And, sorry for the typo. We ALL do this from time to time. I will be more polite than to point out so rudely when you do so, however.

[Taverner]

67. "God has worked wonders in my life so keep and open mind" means I'm saved and better than you

It is what is called a backhanded comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umLUKBlpyoY

[kwassa]

100. Uh, no. There is no such judgment in that comment.

I don't know where you got this from.

[Taverner]

108. Then you don't know Christians nt

[leftyohiolib]

quite the opposite i think it's more

im atheist and better than you. is what it sounds like

[Ikonoklast]

8. Your daughter should have asked that woman if she thanked Zeus for those miracles.

Or, closer to the myth, Mithras.

[hlthe2b]

10. Why would you encourage a child to be rude or intolerant?

Surely one can be firm in their own beliefs without publicly ridiculing or mocking those of others?

[saras]

20. Because stupidity doesn't deserve the tolerance that genuine opinions do

Belief is the problem, not the content of the belief.

No one has ever killed another over an OPINION about religion. It's always BELIEF behind the killing, even if the religion is dialectical materialism.

[G_j]

29. still I see no excuse for being rude in this exchange

or even calling them stupid.

[hlthe2b]

44. Good heavens... So atheists can be intolerant because they are "right?"

Damn, would you listen to yourself? That is disgusting and hardly progressive.

[Ikonoklast]

21. Surely one can keep their own mythological beliefs to themselves, too.

Without trying to impress them upon the minor children of others.

[Stuckinthebush]

32. Because the Christian myth gets some sort of societal privilege

It is totally acceptable (in some social spheres) for a Christian to profess their faith in the way this woman did but it is not so to profess skepticism in said faith.

[kag]

37. Good grief!!!

Please see my post #30 to hlthe2b.

My son is not rude!

And welcome to my ignore list, even though you appear to be a fellow Coloradan.

[ScreamingMeemie]

Take a breath... Your fellow Coloradan was supporting you.

In this instance. Sometimes it's hard to see the reason through the red of rage (trust me, I've been there).

[hlthe2b]

54. No, but obviously

your children have learned valuable lessons. What exactly is it you want to instill in your children. It appears (fortunately) that by example they have more to teach you. :shrug:

Why can't you just be proud of them?

[Taverner]

47. Um, that's not intolerant

Intolerant is telling someone, as this woman did, that they are saved and better than you

Yeah, she didn't say that outright, but that's what she meant, that's what they all mean when they pass on underhanded comments like "I'll pray for you" and "God did wonderful things in my life"

[snooper2]

81. If all children were taught to question the idiocy of religion

We could finally do away with the stupid practice in a few hundred years.


I don't have to "respect" your decision if you go out and pay $7800 for the last Yugo on the planet. Nor do I feel the need to show deference or respect to somebody because they "believe". Fine, go ahead and believe there are mystical creatures running your life and the World. Believe or do something stupid then be prepared to get mocked for it. The more public the better.

Humanity will get past this stupid stage someday...

[RaleighNCDUer]

84. And of course, the woman who buttonholed the child was NOT being rude.

:eyes:

[ZombieHorde]

87. Why do you hate neo-pagans? What have they done to you?

Why is asking someone if they have neo-pagan beliefs rude and intolerant?

[Stuckinthebush]

28. Nice

I like that one. Most Christians don't know the similarties between the Jesus and Mithras myth. Asking this woman about Mithras may have given her the information she needed to look up the myth and see the similarities - hence making the connection that it all is a set of connected stories that have no or limited basis in reality.

Cool.

She could have also brought up the Hercules myth.

[dembotoz]

9. well could have been worse--my son dropped a pizza and exclaimed God Dammit in front of my very

evangelical sister in law.
i promptly told him it was going to be ok and i went back to costco to get another pizza.

while i was gone they boys aunt gave him a fire and brimstone talking to--found out about it a couple days later.

i do not leave my children alone with her anymore.

[Xithras]

12. I don't have a huge problem with it.

At 13, your daughter is old enough to talk to strangers without your permission, so I don't have a big problem with her stopping your daughter to express her view.

IMO, the lady acted the way I wish MORE Christians would. She could have called you a liar. She could have told your daughter that she was going to hell. She could have told your daughter that her lack of faith was making Baby Jeezus cry. She could have tried to "save" your daughter right then and there. Instead...she simply asked your daughter to keep an open mind.

Keeping an open mind is the cornerstone of liberalism. It's a lesson that many Christians, and many liberals alike, would be better off remembering. Free thinking requires an open mind.

[Goblinmonger]

112. The kid's 13. You leave her the hell alone.

I would NEVER go to a 13 year old in a restaurant and tell them to consider atheism if I overheard them talking about religion or saying grace before a meal. It's rude and out of line. Period. Just because she could have been a bigger bitch about it isn't the point. If it were one adult to another, go for it.

[MineralMan]

13. Oh, dear. I don't see the issue here, really.

As you posted, your daughter loudly proclaimed her atheism in this restaurant. When she walked by that table, someone there engaged her in a conversation regarding religious belief, which your daughter handled rationally and politely. Can you explain where your difficulty is with this?

Had the conversation at your table not been loud enough for this other table to hear, the situation would never have arisen. Since it was clearly audible, I can't see any reason to be concerned that someone at another table raised the point with your daughter, who had introduced it publicly. Your daughter behaved perfectly in the situation. I'd be proud of her.

In public places, people often engage others in conversation over things said and heard. No big deal, really.

[totodeinhere]

16. Agreed. n/t

[kag]

35. Please see my reply #30 to hlthe2b

THERE WAS NO PROBLEM!!!!!

IT'S JUST A FUNNY STORY!

[MineralMan]

39. Just seems like a "slice of life" story to me.

Not funny. But, now you're shouting at me. :shrug:

[LeftishBrit]

104. Agree.

As I said in my other post, talking about religion at all used to be a bit of a taboo here, but it's much less so now. People occasionally do talk to me about the importance of church/God/Jesus/synagogue/Jewish laws in their lives, but they're not really expecting me to follow their beliefs. Recently I was in a taxi, where the driver was talking about Ramadan and what it meant to him and his beliefs about Muslims' duty to give to charity. He fairly clearly didn't expect me to convert to Islam; he was just talking about something important in his life. And people sometimes discuss their atheism, and e.g. how no good God could allow X to happen. I think that the OP's daughter handled the situation fine, and I don't think there was anything sinister in the woman's comments.

[Brickbat]

15. Sounds like everyone handled the situation in what each thought was the best way possible, and no

one came out of it offended.

[Ezlivin]

18. 13 years old? Shouldn't she already be married to a pastor?

What's happening to kids nowadays? When I was a fundamentalist she'd already be married.

Damn. Jesus is going to have to come back soon and straighten out all of you sinners!

:sarcasm: of the highest level

As a fellow atheist I cheer you!

[H2O Man]

19. Both of your children

have far superior "people-skills" than you. Hopefully, your influence will not damage them.

[OhioChick]

23. !

:rofl:

[kag]

46. Yeah, my "people skills" suck. Welcome to my ignore list.

[H2O Man]

49. Thank you.

You are forgiven.

[lynne]

22. I don't see the problem -

- your daughter let it be known by your own admission via "an almost-inappropriately loud voice" that she was an atheist. You knew people would overhear your conversation, almost as though you were trying to pull others into it.

The woman only asked that your daughter keep an open mind. Isn't an open mind what we all want to keep about most everything? I know I want my children to keep an open mind and make their own decisions.

I don't see the problem but if the issue is that the woman said anything at all regarding an overheard conversation, my thought would be that possibly such conversations should be held in a more private venue and not in "almost-inappropriately loud" voices in the future.

[kag]

64. Sigh. Once again, please see my reply #30 to hlthe2b

There was no problem.

I was not offended by the woman.

My daughter handled it well, and I was proud of her.

My son would have handled it politely, too. I just thought that his comment was funny, and (obviously erroneously) thought a few du-ers might enjoy it.

Do I really have to post this same comment to EVERYONE WHO READS THIS??

[hlthe2b]

68. Perhaps given the overwhelming number of similar responses...

there is a lesson for you to learn here, kag? Sometimes learning those lessons can be difficult...:shrug:

[kag]

80. Yeah. It taught me where to find the ignore button.

[MineralMan]

83. You're going to miss a great deal if you use that ignore

button too often. That's your choice, though.

[kag]

88. Yeah. That's kind of the point.

I like to read. I read DU a lot. But I don't have the time or energy to read stupid shit like some of what has been leveled at me here.

[MineralMan]

90. Well, alrighty, then.

You might as well ignore me now and avoid future annoyance. :rofl:

[kag]

93. I was kind of thinking I would keep you.

You seemed slightly less judgmental than the truly vicious things that have been posted.

But who am I to disappoint you? Okey Dokey. Ignored. Bye.

[Nye Bevan]

24. Someone encouraged your daughter to keep an open mind? The horror! (nt)

[Arugula Latte]

27. Can you imagine if it had been reversed? An atheist telling the Xtian woman's daughter

to keep an open mind?

She probably would have been tarred and feathered.

[RaleighNCDUer]

91. There would be a thousand posts about "militant atheists"

evangelizing their "religion" and invoking the "religion hater" apostles Dawkins and Higgens as proof of closed minds of atheists.

[trotsky]

96. + a brazillion n/t

[Leontius]

97. We don't do that anymore

We just kill them and flay the skin from their bodies and dry it on the walls of our churches, where have you been since the 1850s?

[Arugula Latte]

123. Man, I gotta keep up.

:D

[leftyohiolib]

45. yea some people carry their atheism around like a sword

just waitin for a chance to swing it.

[Taverner]

57. Um, yeah, right

We're the "militant Atheists" but when Christians do it, they're just pious good people

Your double standard is showing

[leftyohiolib]

69. nope they do it too i never said they didnt

dont put words in my mouth

[Taverner]

73. Don't be a self-loathing atheist

Society wants us to hate ourselves because we don't have faith

Don't buy the bullshit

[ScreamingMeemie]

59. ...and some people carry their beliefs around like a pillow...

just waiting to smother you with it.

[leftyohiolib]

72. yes atheist and the religious alike

[Nye Bevan]

75. "keep an open mind" != "smothering" (nt)

[ScreamingMeemie]

82. No need to get upset with me...Just posing the other side of things.

I have no horse in this race. :)

[Arugula Latte]

70. I'd say the Christian woman was the one swinging her sword.

She wasn't part of their discussion, but she had to try to indoctrinate a child with her mythology. She was the buttinski, not the atheists.

[Goblinmonger]

113. Yeah, because it's so easy to be an atheist in this country.

Most hated minority and all. We just can't wait to tell strangers about being atheist because we know odds are they will be fine with it or cower in fear.

Get over yourself.

[LeftishBrit]

117. As I interpreted this, it was not in your country but mine, and it's a different situation

Atheists are probably less of a minority than devout Christians, and our most hated minorities are immigrants and (right at the moment) benefit claimants.

There is too much intrusion of religion into some aspects of politics even here; but there isn't the same sort of large-scale anti-atheist prejudice that there seems to be in parts of America.

[Goblinmonger]

119. I understand the differences in your country

and I wish I lived in a country with that attitude toward atheists (not the attitude toward immigrants, though).

But the person I was replying to was leftyohiolib, which seemed to be a pretty good interpretation that that person was from the US and should know how atheists are treated here.

[Taverner]

51. The woman only wanted the girl to have an open mind until she found Jeezus

After that, I'm sure she wanted it hermetically sealed

[City of Mills]

65. LOL!

Awesome! And agreed :thumbsup:

[NeedleCast]

25. Always one of my favorite Christian arguments

"God has done wonderful things in my life."

I've covered this one with practically every member of my fundamentalist extended family. Inevitably, it's the argument they use for their faith. My counter is always to point out that they've never tried anything else. When an uncle attributed his successful life to god (the Christian flavored one), I always ask "what have you compared it to?"

I point out to him both I and my fiance are atheist and both of us are successful, happy people. I point out to him that perhaps he would be more successful and happy if he had picked Islam, or Taoism, or any of of thousands of religions and that you can't attribute success to spirituality unless you've tried them all.

They never have a response for that. Go figure.

[Arugula Latte]

31. And, also, they never say anything like: "God really chapped my ass when he made me lose my job"

or "God is an asshole for giving that child cancer."

Never happens. "God" gets all the credit, none of the blame. That invisible dude's got some good PR for a nonexistent entity.

[ScreamingMeemie]

33. This is not really true...

Many people lose their Faith when God does not work for them in the wonderful ways that he is supposed to. I have seen and heard several people exclaim,"Why the hell is God doing this to ME???!!!" But then, I grew up Catholic...and Catholics are good with blaming others. :)

[leftyohiolib]

56. ,"Why the hell is God doing this to ME???!!!" this is the reason

for the people i know who are now atheists as to why they are atheists. he did something or did do another thing so now they dont beleive. and that is their right

[RaleighNCDUer]

94. You do understand, don't you, that athiests don't belive in god.

They are not disappointed in him. They are not unhappy with him. They don't blame god for anything. They don't hate him.

There is no there, there.

I despise religion and the manifold harm done in its name, by PEOPLE. I have nothing at all against god, any more than I resent the Blue Fairy for not turning me into a Real Boy.

[NeedleCast]

48. Yes, another logical inconsistancy of that faith-based argument

Yesterday was a full-force demonstration. God bless the first responders. God bless the NYFD. God bless the families of the victims. God bless New York. God bless the USA.

Where was god when the planes hit the buildings?

[ScreamingMeemie]

53. See my post above yours.

:hi:

[Arugula Latte]

63. Right. That makes me crazy. They conveniently overlook the slaughter of 3,000.

One survivor said he lived because he ducked under his desk, and the desk "had a Bible on it." Yes, what a loving god, to ruthlessly murder his colleagues who were stupid enough to forget to put a Bible on their desks. They had it coming, I guess.

:eyes:

[NeedleCast]

77. Yes, god certainly works in mysterious ways

...as I'm sure you know, that's the next chapter in this particular argument.

A bible "saves" a man from death at the WTC?
God is great!

God fails to stop 3,000 senseless deaths (that would go on to be the catalyst for hundreds of thousands of deaths)
God works in mysterious ways...

[immoderate]

26. Your kids are great. Your daughter is a gem.

The Christian lady was also, I suspect, very British, and non-confrontational. And I disagree that a thirteen year old tourist is in a bubble precluding interaction with the natives.

And I bet your son, given the chance, would handle the situation with dignity.

I'm an atheist, but I'm sure there isn't a person alive who doesn't have some firm belief that I would disagree with. :)

--imm

[kag]

85. Thank you...

for your kind comments. They're coming in handy as I furiously "ignore" some of the people here who seem to think I behaved badly.

[Taverner]

34. Fellow Atheist parent fist-bump!

:fistbump:

Sounds like you did good there!

Oh, and the unrec monkeys seem to be hard at work today. Funny how pointing out their silliness just makes them rage.

[kag]

76. THANK YOU!

I guess I'm just new enough to DU to know better than post stories like this. Too bad. I really am astonished at some of the animosity I'm getting. Did I do something wrong? (Besides, of course, not raising my children to praise a god or a saint or a piece of bread without questioning why?)

But your reply helped; and fist-bump right back atcha!

:fistbump:

[immoderate]

102. Keep in mind, only a small percentage respond.

And particularly those looking for an argument. I always figure people are here because they love this shit. Consider that many times more DUers will view a thread and move on, perhaps because they have seen their POVs adequately expressed.

There is also a gauntlet of unrecs that comes with any interesting post. Trolls, profiteers, and banditos! Oh my!

For the most part, I still think that DU is the most civilized place for interaction on atheist/theist issues. It's never pretty, but it's still better here. :patriot:

It's a good story.

--imm

[kestrel91316]

36. As usual, what should be a reasonable discussion of religious

viewpoints is turned into a hate fest by both rabidly intolerant Christians and rabidly intolerant atheists on DU.

A pox on BOTH groups.

[Nye Bevan]

41. Actually, most in this thread seem to lean towards "keep an open mind".

Which is usually pretty good advice.

[grasswire]

50. this is a hate fest?

Really?

[Arugula Latte]

71. Oh, the drama.

:rofl:

[a la izquierda]

55. I think your problem is that you wrote this over...

the internet. Nobody can get a sense of your tone. And your last sentence intimates that your son would've read the woman the riot act had the woman confronted HIM instead of your daughter (that's how I read it).
I've learned not to tell personal stories on here about anything of consequence- because one cannot convey tone on a computer screen. People's knickers get in a twist and then you end up feeling weird.

[kag]

79. Really? Did I say he was rude? Did I say he liked to...

"put people in their place" as some have suggested? Why would you "read" that? I truly don't understand.

[ScreamingMeemie]

61. I think this might have gone better if you had chosen a word other than

confronts. Other than that, what a well behaved daughter you have. :)

[Tikki]

62. We just always smile and say "May the force be with you"..we..

learned that here on DU.


The Tikkis

[Manifestor_of_Light]

66. Anythiing you post in GD, somebody will chew your ass and second guess your motives.

Tell me about it. They were not there, but they are EXPERTS and will read all sorts of things into it that were not in it.

[FreeJoe]

74. Greek Gods

One of my very religious neighbor's girls were recently playing at our house. One of them asked my seven year old if he is a Christian. He told her that he was more into the Greek Gods. I'm sure that scandalized the neighborhood for a while. Then again, my house is still filled with neighbor kids all the time.

[Mr Dixon]

78. NICE

Nice Wish more people would allow their kids to choose their own path instead of being spoon-fed non-sense.

[Warpy]

89. That was mild enough to be acceptable

What I can't stand are religious people who try to bully children into adopting their sects instead of whatever the children are growing up with.

"Keep an open mind" is always good advice although you don't want it so open that your brains fall out. Your daughter's reaction was perfect.

[ChillbertKChesterton]

92. "The reason I'm an atheist is because..."

you don't remember? I'm curious.

[kag]

95. I wish I could remember.

She probably launched into a discussion of the "evil paradox" or whatever it's called. (Here it is on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil) We've been talking about it recently, and she was particularly interested in it. But she's also been reading the "Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster" so I really can't be sure what argument she posed at that particular time.

[dtexdem]

98. Hey, if "keep an open mind" was the worst we faced, we'd be much better off.

And why do people believe that a creator and controller of the universe would sentence people to eternal torment not for doing the wrong things but for BELIEVING the wrong things?

The answer, of course, is not even social control, rather power: getting power over others by telling them to believe the correct things or else, with them being the judge of the correct thing to believe.

By contrast, "keep an open mind," as patronizing as it might be, is minor.

On the other hand, it might have been interesting to hear what your son might have said.

[LeftishBrit]

103. I think that one thing that may put this in a slightly different perspective...

is that as this was in the UK, the woman, as a strong Christian who believed that God had performed miracles in her life, was in a smaller minority group than your daughter as an atheist. Most Brits would describe themselves as Christians if asked, but many don't really believe in a God; most don't go to church frequently; etc. In fact, my initial assumption, before reading the rest of your post, was that the raised eyebrows might have been about *anybody* talking loudly about religion in a restaurant - a significant proportion of the English think that religion should be kept private and are embarrassed by any public discussion of it, though this is less of a taboo now than in the past. I turned out wrong on this initial assumption; obviously this woman was in the minority that do have strong religious beliefs. But the context is different from that in a place where strong religious belief is a cultural norm, and an atheist in a small minority. E.g. two of our three main party leaders are open atheists, which I understand would be inconceivable in America.

Hope you had a good trip here anyway!

[kag]

125. I appreciate your perspective.

Since I didn't hear her speak, I honestly don't know if she was a Brit or some other nationality. It was a huge hotel with lots of international guests. But I appreciate your perspective.

And yes, we had a fabulous time. We stayed in London for a week--just being tourists. It so happened we were IN London when the riots started in the north part of the city. We, of course, knowing nothing about the geography of the city, couldn't tell at first if they were close to us or not. We learned pretty quickly that our hotel was nowhere near riots. Still the whole thing was pretty tragic, and was on every TV screen everywhere we went.

Then we went up to Scotland to visit some friends of ours, and to go to the Edinburgh Tattoo. It was wonderful. We had a great time!

[defendandprotect]

105. Belief systems are the END, not the beginning of all wisdom ... !!

Rather it is the woman who should consider her own advice about "keeping an open mind"

on religion!

[The Backlash Cometh]

109. Sometimes you can't help overhearing other people's conversations.

My husbsand and I were waiting for a samich at a Paneras when he nudged me and pointed to a group nearby. I tuned in just in time to hear the family friend tell a kid in front of her father:

"Puta. It's pronounced PU-TA."

"What does it mean?" asked the little kid.

"It means the hero's mother." she responded.

I started laughing. Couldn't help myself.

[TBA]

110. For the record... I enjoyed your post.

I'm atheist, kids are too. Their choice.

[kag]

121. Thank you. That helps. n/t

[trotsky]

118. I enjoyed your post too.

And I'm sorry for the way the liberal Christians here treated you in response. As others have pondered upthread, I can't help but wonder what their reactions would have been if your story had been exactly the same but in reverse - you and your kids Christian, and a pesky atheist accosting your daughter telling her to just "keep an open mind."

[NMMNG]

120. "Keep an open mind" is pretty innocuous and actually good advice

But I can't help but wonder if all of the believers who are raking you over the coals would be doing the same to someone whose religious child were approached by an atheist adult with the same advice. How many times are we told we're "attacking people's religion/beliefs/faith" by questioning them, or even by merely stating that we don't believe in gods? Billboards advocating religion are considered acceptable, even good, while ones that say you can be good without gods are "offensive" and "anti-Christian". Perplexing...