Ireland attacks confessional secrecy after Catholic sex abuse scandal

[rug]

Ireland’s prime minister has said Catholic clerics would be prosecuted if they failed to tell the authorities about crimes disclosed during confession, the latest blow to the prestige of the once-dominant Church. A report this week found that the Church concealed from the authorities the sexual abuse of children by priests as recently as 2009, and that clerics appeared to follow Church law rather than Irish guidelines to protect minors.

“The law of the land should not be stopped by a crozier or a collar,” Prime Minister Enda Kenny told journalists on Thursday, referring to the hooked staff held by Catholic bishops during religious services. Kenny said his government would submit legislation to parliament that could jail clerics for up to five years if they failed to report to authorities information about the abuse of children.

The law will override the confessional privilege in Church law that prevents clerics from sharing information, he said. A series of revelations of rape and beatings by members of religious orders and the priesthood in the past have shattered the dominant role of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

Ireland’s Foreign Minister Eamon Gilmore on Thursday summoned the Pope’s representative, the papal nuncio, after the report said that the Vatican had undermined Irish guidelines on reporting sex abuse by referring to them as “study guidelines.”

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2011/07/15/ireland-attacks-confessional-secrecy-after-catholic-sex-abuse-scandal/

[closeupready]

1. Good. The Catholic hierarchy has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can not be trusted

to police themselves. They broke that honor system, so as far as I'm concerned, this is all on them.

[rug]

2. There is a huge difference between a coverup based on what's learned outside the confessional

from that learned inside the confessional.

Do you want clerics texting the police from inside a confessional?

[closeupready]

4. Religion should have no consideration in the process of drafting laws or enforcing them.

Particularly with regard to violent crime.

And frankly, I'm shocked that you are justifying it.

[rug]

5. And the police should have no rule in infiltrating a religion.

I think you're missing the point. The problem with the church's reaction to reports of sex abuse has little to do with confession. What it did was ignore and defelect reports of sex abuse from hundreds of reports made outside of a confessional. That is where it needs to be held accountable and the law applied

[closeupready]

7. I know where your sympathies lie, and that's fine, but this will be my last reply to you.

The Catholic hierarchy has abused unforgivably the trust that society put in it, and this is a predictable response. Now, priests can still decline to come forward with information about violent crimes, but there will be legal consequences to that, whereas there weren't before.

To repeat, there is no reason to legally accommodate one superstition over another; indeed, there should be a strict separation between the two, as there is here in the US.

[rug]

9. I understand your desire to eradicate "superstition" but I wonder

would you like the state to require attorneys to come forward and report violent crimes to the police that clients have confessed to them?

[Humanist_Activist]

14. A priest is not the member of the Bar, nor would the common-interest rule apply...

In order for confidentiality to apply, five requirements have to be met:

1. the person asserting the privilege must be a client, or must have sought to become a client at the time of disclosure
2. the person connected to the communication must be acting as a lawyer
3. the communication must be between the lawyer and the client exclusively—no non-clients may be included in the communication
4. the communication must have occurred for the purpose of securing a legal opinion, legal services, or assistance in some legal proceeding, and not for the purpose of committing a crime
5. the privilege may be claimed or waived by the client only

For example, if a client confesses to his defense attorney that he committed the crime(with the above 5 conditions met), the defense attorney cannot reveal that information to the court without the client first waiving the privilege, however, other rules also prohibit the attorney from suborning perjury, so the attorney cannot put the client on the stand to proclaim his innocence.

If, however, the client confesses to an unrelated felony that they may not be charged with, or that attorney is not representing them, or going to represent them on, then the privilege doesn't apply, conditions 1, 2 and/or 4 would not be met, and in fact the attorney can be charged with accessory after the fact, or possibly co-conspirator if they don't reveal this information to the court.

The same holds true in a case of a client who says they are going to commit a crime to their attorney they haven't committed yet, condition 4 applies in this case, and the attorney must act to prevent the commission of the crime.

Note that the courts have discretion in determining when privilege applies on a case by case basis.

[rug]

15. Cook v. Carroll (1945) IR 515

The priest-penitent privilege has long been established in Ireland.

My comment to the previous poster on the attorney-client privilege was an analogy.

[Humanist_Activist]

16. True, but I was illustrating how attorney-client privilege may not apply...

neither privilege is nor should they be absolutely sacrosanct. In addition, neither should be used as an excuse to cover up previous crimes or to allow crimes to continue.

[TexasProgresive]

3. How is this to work?

"Bless me Father, for I have sinned. It has been 2 months since my last confession.

Father, I had sexual relations with a student of mine."

The priest cannot see the penitent who is behind a screen, reaches to a switch which bolts the penitent's door. The screen slids open to be replaced by 5/8 inch plexiglass. A video recorder is turned on.

Priest: "Your name?"

Penitent: "John J. O'Malley."

Priest: "Mr. O'Malley repeat what you just told me."

Penitent: "I had sexual relations with a student of mine."

Priest: "And the student's name gender and age?"

Penitent: "Sheila O'Donovan, female, 15."

The priest opens the switch and every thing returns to normal. He gives Mr. O'Malley absolution. O'Malley leaves the confessional and the priest pushes a button which transmits the audio/video to the Gardai.

Yeah, like that's going to happen.

[rug]

6. Precisely.

[LuvNewcastle]

8. I think church officials should be held

to the same standard as therapists. If a patient admits to killing someone, the therapist has a duty to report it. I really don't give a shit if a child molester can speak off-the-record about his crimes.

[rug]

10. The therapistt-patient privilege is not as bald as you believe.

http://www.jaffee-redmond.org/

[LuvNewcastle]

11. I've been going to a therapist regularly

for many years and it's always been my understanding that if I admitted to murder or rape (including child molestation), my therapist would have a duty to report it. According to the link you provided, there seem to be some legal arguments against such a position. Maybe that is just the condition on which my therapists have demanded in order to treat me. If I was a therapist, I would have the same rule, however, and I would be sure to tell the patient this before treating him. I think that if the RCC has to inform its members of such a policy, so be it.

[rug]

12. It's a very tricky area.

one hand, it's deemed a social good to provide a safe, confidential source to encourage people to seek help/treatment/advice. On the other hand, a privileged , confidential setting is not meant to be a breeding ground for the commission of crimes.

In the therapist area it's complicated by the fact that the patient's identity is known, very specific facts are usually known and exchanged, and the relationship usually extends over a period of time.

In the context of a sacramental confession, it's usually anonymous, brief, and the confession is not nearly as specific. And the "seal of confession" applies only in very limited circumstances. A church in all other regards must comply with civil law and any mandated reporting requirements. If it doesn't, it should be held accountable.

[struggle4progress]

17. +

[closeupready]

13. To the person on my ignore list: I guess you'll have to figure it out without my help, won't you.

:)