OK let's try to get a shared definition

[dmallind]

What does "spiritual" mean? The context being that some say they are "spiritual but not religious", while it's often claimed nonbelievers necessarily deny any "spiritual" aspect.

So what is "spiritual"? A nice feeling caused by pondering the universe or listening to Bach or even just relaxing? Some metaphysical but contingent link to a larger transcendant consciousness? How do we know when we are encountering the spiritual - how do we tell the difference between the above feelings? Is there a difference? Endorphins? Blood pressure and oxygenation? Synapses? Is there a physiological component at all and in which direction does the causal link go if at all? I can read dictionaries (which list usages rather than true definitions anyway) but they are silent on exactly what is spiritual.

[HillbillyBob]

1. After a couple of NDEs myself..I can't say whether the lights were

misfiring synapses or 'god'. Once i though I heard voices saying 'It's not your time'. The other time i was unconscious to start with.
I truly doubt the existence of 'god' though karma seems to work nicely from time to time.

[OHdem10]

2. For many spitual means an acceptance of a Deity along with

individual practice, prayer or meditation while
avoiding formal religion (churches etc.)

[digonswine]

3. It seems like that term does suggest stepping outside of what is concrete reality-

perhaps a connectedness to all things or all of the universe(whatever that means). It is a wishy-washy term with meanings unique to the user. I would never use the term to describe myself.

[Deep13]

4. *shrug* nt

[ZombieHorde]

5. Deep and regular self reflection. nt

[EvolveOrConvolve]

6. The feelings of "spirituality" I got from religion

are identical to the ones I get when I see a particularly poignant movie or watch the sunset from my deck or hear of a child taken by cancer before her time. The only difference between myself and a believer is that I don't ascribe supernatural origins to those emotions.

The final scene in the movie Gladiator draws a particularly strong reaction for me, even though I know that there is no afterlife that Maximus will experience where he is reunited with his murdered wife and child. Maybe knowing there isn't an afterlife is why it resonates with me so much; this is all we have, there isn't anything else, and immortality is for fairy tales and Elvis.

[Nihil]

7. It might be tricky to get a consensus on an incredibly subjective term ...

... but here's my tuppenceworth anyway ...

> The context being that some say they are "spiritual but not religious" ...

I've used that phrase several times so the following is just my view on it.


> ... while it's often claimed nonbelievers necessarily deny any
> "spiritual" aspect.

AFAIR, I've not claimed that but, whilst I wouldn't expect them to use that
word, I also wouldn't be surprised if there is a similar "feeling" that they
ascribe to a different cause.


I partially agree with some of the posters upthread:
e.g., OHdem10 in #2
>> For many spiritual means an acceptance of a Deity along with individual
>> practice, prayer or meditation while avoiding formal religion (churches etc.)

I always associate the words "religious" and "religion" with the formal
and/or doctrinal organisations - whether extreme or moderate - and so don't
use the word to describe myself (as I am not a member of any such).

I would also differ in that "spiritual" (to me) doesn't necessarily imply
a Deity (although that may be the case for many individuals); I refer to
myself as a form of "Deist" or "Theist" in addition to "spiritual" as I see
the words as addressing different aspects of the situation.


e.g., digonswine in #3
>> It seems like that term does suggest stepping outside of what is
>> concrete reality- perhaps a connectedness to all things or all of
>> the universe(whatever that means).

I will sometimes use the word with regard to "otherness", not just the
"connectedness to all things" view but the wider application of "something
that doesn't currently map to my understanding of the world". (I'll leave
the debate over "concrete reality" for another time!)


So, to come back to your original suggestions/questions (again, all IMHO),
> A nice feeling caused by pondering the universe

Sometimes ... the pleasure of "wonder" at the different phenomena in the
universe (and the feelings engendered) comes into it - but isn't "all of it".

> or listening to Bach

Not necessarily (though it's nice in its own right, I differentiate between
such "niceness" and any feeling of "spirituality").

> or even just relaxing?

Not particularly (again it's nice in its own right)


> Some metaphysical but contingent link to a larger transcendant consciousness?

That's a large part of it for me (i.e., an awareness of a link to a larger
transcendant consciousness but without any great analysis of the nature of
the link). I feel that link but have no knowledge of why or how I do so ...
or even what either the "link" or the "consciousness" actually are. I read
a lot but (so far) still end up putting the experiences/feelings/thoughts of
the subject into a box labelled simply with a question mark or some other
equivalent of "For Further Review".


> How do we know when we are encountering the spiritual
> how do we tell the difference between the above feelings?
> Is there a difference?

And now we come back to subjectivity again (not to mention my lack of an
appropriate way to explain my feelings/reactions).


> Endorphins? Blood pressure and oxygenation? Synapses?
> Is there a physiological component at all and in which direction does
> the causal link go if at all?

There often seems to be a physiological component that seems to start
with a perception of some form and which results in a physiological
response (cf brain-scans of meditators, heart/breath rate linked to
the alpha state, electrical activity levels within the body) but whether
that is in fact the result (rather than the cause) or if it is even
the whole of the experience (rather than just the easily measurable parts)
is a huge question that can only get a big "I don't know" from me.

:shrug:

[dmallind]

9. An excellent reply. Can I probe a bit more?

While all replies and opinions are useful and appreciated, this one helps continue the investigation more I think.

Two big areas where more would be great:

1) the link to the greater consciousness. Nobody can define this "GC" so I'm not asking that, but I'm intrigued by how the feeling that it exists (and perhaps that a person can get a momentary glimpse of or link to it) differs from that nice relaxed feeling we both mentioned. Subjective obviously but what mental or sensory signal tells you (generic you open to anyone) that you have gone beyond relaxation into connectedness? Obviously not expecting a chart of neurological inputs, but is it visual, auditory, emotional (a sense of happiness perhaps or even fear in the presence of something so awesome in the true meaning of the word)? Heightened or dulled external perception? What, in a nutshell, happens?

2) The link between spirituality and faith (rather thsn religion) concerning something the "GC" that has both transcendent and immanent aspects. This is tough for me to even imagine because if spirituality necessitates a connection to this greater something then it must obviously necessitate belief that the GC can interact even in some ineffable way with humans but that it also is outside natural phenomena. That transcendent/immanent dilemma is tough to get past. How reconciled?

[digonswine]

10. I'll try-

I think there is no difference between that nice feeling you mentioned and the feeling that believers experience. It is maybe a different interpretation of the same feeling. I , personally, rarely get to feel that feeling. It occurs when I can be purely experiencing what is happening in the moment. It is not a dulling or heightening of perception-more like an acceptance of reality as it is for a fleeting moment, without the cynicism, negativity, and other baggage accompanying most of real life. I wish it was more common-but it is difficult to let go of these habits easily. I believe this is purely immanent and not external in any way.

[okasha]

11. A couple observations.

(1) At least in my experience, spirituality is not a relaxed feeling. It is, rather, a heightened awareness and more intense attention to that awareness of the "GC" inherent in the universe. (As a Native American, I'm pretty much a panentheist; the "GC" pervades physical reality but extends beyond it.) There may or may not be external sensory experiences. I've been in ceremony where everyone present saw and heard the same manifestations; I've been in situations where everyone's experience was different.

(2) Various traditions bridge this gap in different ways. For a Christian, the intersection of the human and the GC is Jesus, both in orthodox and unorthodox teaching (eg., Christ Sophia, the equation of Jesus with Holy Wisdom or the belief that he was entirely human but extraordinarily open or transparent to the GC.) For a patheist it's in acknowledging the presence of the GC in all things, including oneself. A spiritual practice is a way of accessing that presence. ,

[Nihil]

12. Thanks for that ... will try to address your first part ...

> 1) the link to the greater consciousness. Nobody can define this "GC" so I'm not
> asking that, but I'm intrigued by how the feeling that it exists (and perhaps that
> a person can get a momentary glimpse of or link to it) differs from that nice
> relaxed feeling we both mentioned. Subjective obviously but what mental or sensory
> signal tells you (generic you open to anyone) that you have gone beyond relaxation
> into connectedness? Obviously not expecting a chart of neurological inputs, but is
> it visual, auditory, emotional (a sense of happiness perhaps or even fear in the
> presence of something so awesome in the true meaning of the word)? Heightened or
> dulled external perception? What, in a nutshell, happens?

For me, it's not so much "going beyond relaxation" in a conscious or deliberate
fashion (e.g., by meditative practice or whatever) as an event that "just happens"
every once in a while.

Although it is so much more than just a visual "signal", it is as if a filter
is temporarily lifted such that even though my sight before (and after) the
event was not significantly deficient, I could suddenly perceive things with
a clarity that was way beyond anything I achieve outside of those times.
This is not just in a purely line of sight visual aspect (e.g., seeing more detail
on the far side of a valley) but also with a temporary dislocation of viewpoint,
literally being able to see things as if I'd moved my eyes, my subjective "camera",
across to a new position but without moving my body an inch. I could also "zoom in"
(for want of a better analogy) but not just to see things from closer but, to an
extent, through the external layers of the object as if they had become transparent.

To call this "sight" is not to capture the sensation - it is a full awareness - but
I am at a loss how else to present my experience.
:shrug:

Similarly, there have been tactile aspects to some of those moments but they
didn't (couldn't) involve any physical action of touching the items concerned.

I can't recall any particular auditory effect (except that I wasn't consciously
aware of other people around me but I can "shut out" the background noise in the
office when focussing on a tricky problem too so that's not particularly unusual).

Heightened perception is definitely part of it but it involved more than that
as the awareness of the connections, of the whole, was much larger than simply
the particular fraction that I was focussing upon.

The overriding "feeling" was one of "Of course! That's how it all hangs together!
How could I have ever forgotten it?" and that feeling stays for a short time after
the event itself but despite - or perhaps because of? - any attempt to recall the
entirety of what I perceived, it soon fades to a memory of the connectedness that
was briefly present.


The closest I've found (so far) of a description by others that matches my
impressions was in a couple of books by Colin Wilson where he quoted an extract
from a (Victorian?) doctor that resonates with my feelings on those occasions:

...
Directly afterwards there came upon me a sense of exultation,
of immense joyousness, accompanied or immediately followed by
an intellectual illumination impossible to describe.
Among other things ... I saw that the universe is not composed of
dead matter, but is, on the contrary, a living Presence;
...
The vision lasted a few seconds and was gone.
...

He phrases things in a more religious vein that I feel about it but maybe
that's just a difference in backgrounds. The doctor concerned went on to
write a book ("Cosmically Conscious"?) and collect other accounts of other
similar experiences. (I'll have a look later to fill in the details but I'd
noted down the above quote & origin a while back as it "rang a bell" with me).


(BTW, sorry that it sometimes takes me a while to respond to posts - if in doubt,
PM me to give me a nudge!)

[okasha]

18. It sounds to me as if we're pretty much on the same wavelength.

i think what's happening to you spontaneously is very much what happens in ceremony or in meditation, as well as sometimes just kind of sneaks up on a person in a conducive setting. Looking out over the sea, for instance, listenng to the waves, or watching or listening to animals in the wild.

As you say, you can't hold on to the experience or carry it around with you. What you might want to think about now is whether you want to invite it, or just let it remain something that comes when it wills. If youd decide you want to explore and you're anywhere near a large city, you can probably find someone who can guide you a bit, if you feel you need guidance. A Buddhist might be good if you don't want a theological orientation.

[Nihil]

19. Definitely agree with the "sometimes just kind of sneaks up on a person in a conducive setting" bit.

> Looking out over the sea, for instance, listenng to the waves, or watching
> or listening to animals in the wild.

Many of the occasions on which it has happened fit the above general description.

I don't meditate as such (i.e., by following any particular discipline, routine
or practice) as I haven't generally found it to be any more "helpful" to me than
to spend the same amount of time reading, drawing, examining something or whatever.


> What you might want to think about now is whether you want to invite it, or just
> let it remain something that comes when it wills. If youd decide you want to
> explore and you're anywhere near a large city, you can probably find someone who
> can guide you a bit, if you feel you need guidance. A Buddhist might be good if
> you don't want a theological orientation.

That might be something to try in the future ... we'll see!

Thanks for the thought. :hi:

[Iggo]

8. I've been around a shitload pf people who identified as spiritual...

...and it mostly seems their way of being religious without having to admit (to me or to themselves) that they really are religious.

[Curmudgeoness]

13. Just the word "spiritual" indicated to me a religious conotation

since religion is where we encounter talk of a spirit. The spirit, or the soul, or whatever lives on after we die, is linked in my mind to religion. So "spiritual" would really relate to something that seems to affect you deeper than normal, it affects you to your soul. And this is why an atheist would not consider an experience as spiritual.

[frogmarch]

14. When I’m emotionally moved by something;

that is, when I feel profoundly happy about something that’s happened, or am flooded with appreciation for a beautiful scene in nature (mountains do this to me) or a wonderful piece of music, or suddenly feel deeply sentimental about my family and pets, I think the emotion must be what some people call spiritual. I have no religious beliefs, so I'm not affected by religious icons, but maybe it’s the same kind of feeling that religious people experience when they worship their deities.

[rbnyc]

15. This relates so much to my post...

...whick I originally put in the Lounge but am glad ended up here.

For me, I sense a spiritual life and look for ways to connect and communicate with that life, but I don't believe in a personified god or an all-powerful entity with intentions and values. I believe that there are forces at work that I do not understand but they may impact my life. I try to connect to those forces by being conscious of them and by using my own kind of mythological language to describe them to myself.

[tinrobot]

16. "Spirit" is defined by the latin "spiritus" or "breath"

I like that definition because I get closest to my "spirit" when I meditate and focus on my breath.

Meditation leaves behind the chatter of the mind. When that chattering mind subsides, all that is left is one's being, or one's "spirit". This state of being allows you to view reality through a different filter, one that is more holistic. You let go of separateness and understand that being separate from the whole is all just a concept of mind (which loves to name and itemize things). If we understand we're not separate, then how can our spirits (that which animates us) be separate?

Spirituality is the awareness of that greater consciousness and holistic connection. Gaining that awareness is not limited to meditation, but the process is invariably one of letting go of the part of the mind which needs to separate and categorize - i.e. the rational mind.

This is probably why there's often an impasse with atheists because they tend to talk strictly from the rational mind, but the awareness involved in a spiritual pursuit is gained by quieting that part of the mind. It's a completely different language and level of understanding.

[rbnyc]

17. +1 (nt)

[iris27]

20. In my encounters with those who've described themselves that way, it tends to mean a dislike

of organized churches, liturgical worship, and a faith spelled out in doctrine, but that the person does have a belief in "something out there greater than ourselves".