Two instances of unshakeable certainty

[AlecBGreen]

Here in R/T and out in the real world, nonbelievers often ask "Why do you believe in God? What evidence do you have for Her/His/Its existence?" That is a good question, the response to which requires more than a simple post in an online discussion forum. Nevertheless, I would like to offer two events that happened to me that serve as an example for why I AlecBGreen believe in the existence of God.

First off you should know that I tend to be a very self-doubting person. I often second-guess my decisions and experiences. I have a 'full-of-doubt' personality. Virtually EVERY decision I make is bound to bring up thoughts of doubt, hesitation, second-guessing, etc. Thinking back, I can only recall two (2!) instances of unshakeable certainty in my life. Both were spiritual/religious events.

#1) In the summer of 2004 I travelled to China to teach English for a year. I had just begun to feel called by God (that is a post for another time) so I thought a year away from the usual could give me time to explore my belief. At this point in my life, I was quite uncertain about God - did it exist? If so, what does that mean? I signed a year-long contract over the internet with a small private English school in a remote corner of China's poorest province. The boss told me to contact him once I and my colleague N. reached the provincial capital and he would come pick us up. I got my visa, packed my bags, flew across the US and to then to Beijing (18 hours). Once in Beijing we slept for 12 hours in the train station then rode the train 36 hours into Guiyang, the capital of Guizhou province. We arrived at two a.m.

N. used the phone of a nice young lady we had met on the train to contact our boss. While on the phone, his face fell. He mouthed, "we dont have a job!" He argued with the boss for a few minutes then hung up in disgust. Apparently our future boss, not hearing from us for 3 days, assumed we weren't coming. He gave away our jobs to others. N. countered that we had been on a frikkin' plane and train for the last 3 days, how were we supposed to contact him? It was futile; the jobs were gone.

There we were, 2 am in a foreign country with lots of luggage, little money, barely a scrap of Chinese ability and no jobs. We were crushed. N. cussed up a storm and wanted to get back on the next train and fly home. The young lady and her father (a police officer) graciously invited us back to their home to eat, sleep, and try to figure out our response to this situation. They took us home and fed us an amazing meal and we soon fell asleep on their floor.

I woke at about 6am, N. still sound asleep on the couch. I went to the window of their 5th story apartment to smoke a cigarette and think about the situation. The city was all aglow with orange streetlights and very quiet. I was wracked with indecision. In my mind I was screaming "WHAT THE F***!?" Having just started to believe in the possibility of God, a thought popped in my mind: pray, ask for guidance. I prayed, "God, if you are there, help me. What should I do?" The response was immediate: "Open your Bible." I flipped it open and looked at read the first passage I saw, Luke 9:62 "Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God." At that very moment a feeling overtook me which I can hardly relate. It was like a freight-train ran over me. A feeling of peace and absolute certainty filled me from head to toe. It was palpable. I knew to the very core of my being that I was meant to be here.

To this day I forget so many things (my moms birthday being a prime example!) but this moment is etched into my brain. I can remember the apartment, the smell of the dinner in the air. I can remember the way the city looked, the way the trains overpass bisected my view of the city. Most of all, I can still viscerally feel the sensation of calm, peace, and utter certainty that filled me up. Its a great thing.

We stayed in China and found a job two days later. I taught English for two years and went on to become a science teacher in the US when I returned. I met my future wife in Guiyang. In all ways, my time there was a positive experience. I give this one moment credit for all that has happened since. This brings me to my next experience.

#2) Newly married, still living in Guiyang ~18 months later. My life had changed in many ways. I was reading the Bible and thinking more of God but I was still uncertain in my belief. This was unsurprising as that was and is the norm in my life. My wife was an atheist so this spiritual questioning was mostly done alone. I was frustrated by my uncertainty to say the least. The moment in the policeman's apartment often came to mind but I discounted it as just one experience. If God was real, was that to be my only glimpse?

One night I fell asleep and had a vivid dream, the details of which I can still clearly recall. I was in a large stone church with stairs running up and around the sides of a great foyer. The steps of the stairway were red, velvety cushions. I climbed the stairs with many others and at the top, a cloakroom was there. The man in the cloakroom handed me a gray woolen robe. I put it on and followed the crowd into a large sanctuary. Wooden tables were everywhere and many people were sitting at the tables. They exuded a sense of community but I felt out of place. I sat at a table that was set aside, further from the others. A preacher began to give his sermon. He was very animated though unsmiling. All the people were nodding and smiling at his words. Suddenly his head whipped around and he looked right at me. He said "You DO NOT belong here!" Scared and embarrassed, I left.

(side note: as I write this, a snowstorm is falling and a huge lightning bolt just crashed outside! COOL!)

Leaving the claustrophobic room with the snarling preacher and the nodding heads, I followed the stone-and-cushion stairway to the highest level of the church. I went into another room. Here too there were a great many people, dressed in street clothes. They were milling around a table, eating a pot-luck supper. They had a familiar look to them; one resembled my mom, though just different enough to not be her. I joined the line and people were clapping me on the back, greeting me. A man entered the room. Unlike the others, he was dressed in a powder blue silk robe. "Oh, its an angel!" I matter-of-factly thought (can one consciously 'think' in a dream?). He walked up to me, smiling. That same feeling of peace and certainty I had felt at the policeman's house descended on me like a warm blanket. He said, "Hi AlecBGreen! We've been waiting for you. Just so you know, everything is going to be ALL RIGHT." I immediately came out of my dream and awoke completely. "HOLY $HIT!" I thought, "that was a message straight from God's lips to my ears!" The same feeling of total, complete, unassailable certainty flooded me. Again its hard to describe but it was pervasive, unmistakable, undeniable. I have not thought of this dream for some time, but during my life in China I remembered it often with great happiness.

So these are just some moments I wanted to share with you all about why I believe in God. Are there other possible explanations? Absolutely. My mom is a psychologist and she will tell you that dreams are manifestations of our subconscious. Even so, these two moments of unshakable certainty were SO real, SO visceral, I cannot help but feel they have a higher origin. Thanks for reading! :hi:

[laconicsax]

1. So you acknowledge you could be wrong, but nothing could change your mind?

:shrug:

[AlecBGreen]

2. I cant foresee the future

so I cannot say with 100% certainty that nothing will ever break me of my faith (see, there's that doubt again). But yes, right now, sitting here in my kitchen with my cat draped across my laptop and snow falling outside, I cannot envision changing my mind. I feel like I have been called loud and clear and I cant turn my back on that.

p.s. this post took twice as long to write as it should due to aforementioned cat camping out on my hands. photo evidence:

[AlecBGreen]

3. as an aside...

this is Dicos. If I hadnt listened to that first thought to read, if I hadnt stayed in China, I never would have adopted him and his sister. Its amazing to think where I would be now, how my life would be different if I had gone back to America instead of staying.

[laconicsax]

9. Seems that you're conclusions are dependent on unproven premises.

Namely that the Christian god is the correct answer here. Since you admit that you could be wrong, would you also admit that it's equally likely that your experience was related to a god other than the Christian god?

[AlecBGreen]

12. I dont understand what you mean by this:

Seems that you're conclusions are dependent on unproven premises, (n)amely that the Christian god is the correct answer here." Could you say that in a different way?

...would you also admit that it's equally likely that your experience was related to a god other than the Christian god? No, I would not admit its equally likely that Baal or Odin was reaching out to me. Everything I have read and been taught refers to the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. Is there a possibility that I am being deceived by some pernicious being and there is no 'God of Abraham" only a malicious spirit? Yes. I discount hardly any possibilities. It is also possible that I was born this morning with all my memories intact. I choose not to believe that, just as I choose to believe I am not being deceived.

[trotsky]

19. Countless people have been even MORE convinced than you are that god spoke to them.

They then proceeded to rape, torture, or kill in its name. Since you can't give any kind of explanation as to why you trust your experiences as the true voice of god, there is no way to dismiss what those people claimed god said either. That is a huge, HUGE problem for your religion, and indeed for any revealed religion.

[AlecBGreen]

21. at the risk of allowing the NTS to rear its ugly head...

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." -John 14:21

And what are those commandments?

Mark 12:28-31 "One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

[trotsky]

22. Jesus told people to sell their possessions and follow him.

You haven't sold your possessions. Therefore I can only conclude that you are not a True Christian.

Jesus said plenty of other things that I bet you don't obey - shall we explore them all?

[laconicsax]

36. I'll clarify.

You were raised in a Christian environment, so when someone says "god," you think of the Christian one.

What if you were raised in a non-Christian environment (Hindu for example)? Would you still think that your experience was related to the Christian god?

[rug]

4. Good post.

[DerekG]

5. Thank you for these stories

Although my own faith did not survive tremendous evil and suffering, I take some measure of solace in testimonials such as these.

[cleanhippie]

6. Interesting.

Thanks for sharing.

[trotsky]

7. It is nice that you think your god did all these special things for you...

to simply make your life more comfortable or convenient.

Millions of children have cried out to the same god in pain, and gotten nothing.

Consider yourself very fortunate to get such special attention from your god, when he doesn't give a shit about most people. Congrats!

[AlecBGreen]

8. I try but often forget how fortunate I am

right now I have a warm, dry roof over my head, a full belly, a loving wife, two cats a dog, and the day off tomorrow. I am fortunate indeed, though I did nothing to earn or deserve any of these things. I have a job that pays the bills, but truly everything I have has been a gift of providence.

Why do others suffer such hardship when I have it so easy? I do not know. Why was I born in a wealthy country while so many people live on less than $1 per day? Again I dont know. What I DO know is that I should be thankful for what I have, and use what I have been given to help those who have less. Jesus said (three times no less), "the poor will always be with you..." and he had much else to say about having compassion on the broken down.

Here is where my politics and religious belief intersect: I take it as both my patriotic duty and a God-given commandment to do all that I can to help all those in need, both here and abroad. I am to seek the causes and strike at the root of the problem.

[trotsky]

10. Jesus also said you should give up all your possessions.

Why haven't you done that?

Why do others suffer such hardship when I have it so easy? I do not know.

That's a pity, because it is the fundamental flaw in Christian theology. Your greatest scholars have tried and tried to address the question, but the very best they were able to come up with was "because that's the way it is." Wow.

I'm also a bit disturbed by any Christian who tosses out the terrible "poor will always be with you" line. No they won't. They don't have to be. That is a horrible defeatist attitude and a defense of the status quo. And Christianity promotes itself as a superior philosophy? Baloney.

[AlecBGreen]

13. you already know the answer to that Trotsky

"Jesus also said you should give up all your possessions. Why haven't you done that?"

Because we believers take the Scripture we agree with literally, and that which we dont metaphorically.

The presence of the poor, the presence of evil and suffering is not a flaw in my theology, but rather a flaw in your understanding of what God supposedly is and what God owes humanity. I can offer my perspective on this issue but I dont think it would be well-received or appreciated.

"I'm also a bit disturbed by any Christian who tosses out the terrible "poor will always be with you" line. No they won't. They don't have to be. That is a horrible defeatist attitude and a defense of the status quo. And Christianity promotes itself as a superior philosophy? Baloney."

There will always be poor people; I know this for two reasons. #1 (which you discount) Christ says it #2 rational thought says it. No matter what economic system we use, no matter how well we reach out to those in need, there will always be some who suffer material shortfalls. There will be some, for whatever reason, who do not have enough food, shelter, or whatever. This is akin to the No Child Left Behind Act. No matter what we as a school do, there will be some kids who do not pass the standardized test. Its just that simple. Some kids are homeless, some are addicts, some are chronic truants, some are pregnant. Many just dont give a flying **** about school. There is NO WAY to get EVERY CHILD in America to pass a stadardized test, even if all they had to do was show up and sign their name. Such is it with the poor. Im sorry if you think that is a defeatist attitude. Does that mean I should give up on my kids? Absolutely not. I work hard to try and get every one to pass. I do not beat myself up when one doesnt. Such is it with the poor. Do what you can, strive for perfection, do not be ashamed or "defeatist" when you fail to lift every poor person out of poverty.

[trotsky]

15. It's very telling that instead of disputing the tongue-in-cheek answer,

you embrace it. I do not detect that your theology is very sophisticated at all, that you'd rather gloss over the hard questions than attempt to answer them. You present the pretty standard Sunday School copout that I simply don't understand your god. Well no, I don't, and neither do you, and rather than see this as a problem and something that should be addressed, you ignore it. It's also a bit unnerving that you hint how what you DO think may not be "well-received or appreciated." Whoa. Talk about a teaser. Must be a pretty ugly bit of your theology that you'd rather not share. That's OK, most of Christianity is pretty ugly to me.

No matter what economic system we use, no matter how well we reach out to those in need, there will always be some who suffer material shortfalls.

I do not believe or accept this. Have we always *had* poverty? Sure. Must we always? I don't believe that. And certainly when an all-powerful, all-loving god being says it, it sounds even more ridiculous.

[Silent3]

23. To the extent that poverty is relative, not absolute...

...I'd say it's very likely there will always be poverty in the sense that no matter how well we provide for the material needs of humanity, some people will be at the lower end whatever economic scale prevails at any given time, and we could well call those people "poor", no matter how well-off they are compared to the poor of today, or the poor of the past. Many of the people we call "poor" in the US today have far better access to, and quality of, food, shelter and clothing, even medical care, than average people a hundred or two hundred years ago.

Absolute poverty, however, lack of basic food, clothing and shelter, illness and death from easily preventable and treatable disease -- that sadly still exists, especially in undeveloped countries. We should be able to come very close to eliminating that kind of poverty if we make the effort. I say "close to eliminating", however, not "completely eliminate", because in a world with several billions of people in it, it's very hard to imagine that at least a few people won't "slip through the cracks" no matter what we do.

(A world that has no cracks at all that people can slip through ever would likely be a far too regulated, regimented, and monitored world than I'd care to live in.)

As for Christian inconsistency regarding giving up all of your worldly goods to help the poor... I agree with you there. It's not that I'm personally especially generous, so I can't fault others for only giving up to a certain point while keeping themselves materially comfortable. It's just that I don't make any claims of supernatural moral authority or moral influence for my actions or lack thereof.

[trotsky]

24. Oh absolutely.

I think I'm seeing it the same way you do.

It's just that I don't make any claims of supernatural moral authority or moral influence for my actions or lack thereof.

Bingo.

[Sal316]

25. Perhaps you missed the 'moral of the story'

re: the rich, young ruler.

Yes, it's true that Jesus did tell him to "sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor", but if you remove that verse from the rest of the story, you miss the entire point.

The RYR was a legalist, a fundamentalist one could say. He approached Jesus and asked him how he could enter the Kingdom. Jesus told him to follow the commandments.

When the RYR protested that he did that already, Jesus saw that he had put his trust in following the rules and his wealth instead of trusting in God. So, when Jesus said "there is one thing you lack", that's what it was. Selling his possessions was to be an act of faith, to step out of the material comfort of wealth and into the sometimes uncomfortable position of trusting in God to meet all his needs.

This lesson is repeated over and over and over. This is also why the manna rotted during the Exodus. God told Moses to tell the people to take only what they needed. They didn't. They didn't trust that He would meet their needs, so they hoarded the manna because they were afraid.

As far as the 'poor will always be with you', Jesus wasn't saying there would always be poor people. He was telling his followers that they will always be among you because that is where someone who follows Him is supposed to be... with the poor, the helpless, the voiceless, the powerless.

[trotsky]

27. Naw, I'm pretty sure I got it.

You're a fundamentalist too, Sal. There are parts of the bible you take quite literally. Am I to understand you take the Exodus story literally, based on what you wrote?

[Sal316]

29. Naw, you don't.

You really, really don't.

[trotsky]

31. That's just your interpretation. n/t

[Evoman]

33. I think the rich guy and Moses' people were smart.

Trusting in god is the absolute dumbest thing you can do in this world.

[Sal316]

35. You're right....

Trusting in material things and letting greed dominate your life is sooooo much smarter.

:sarcasm:

[Evoman]

37. Ha! Cuz it's one or the other, right?

I trust in myself, my friends, my family. Money? Material things? Fuck that noise...who in their right mind would put their trust in currency.

Buying shit isn't for me. Never has been, never will be. But putting your trust in bullshit thay doesn't exist isn't gonna do shit for you. Even if there was a god, there are way too many fucked over poor, starving, raped people who "have faith" and get nothing for it but even a more sore ass as rich people fuck em more and more. God...ha.

[Sal316]

40. ummm... like others, you're missing the point of those stories.

Go back a few posts and reread it... I have no desire to repeat myself.

[Evoman]

47. Missed the point....bah.

That's what you guys always say when your points are stupid and pointless. I don't really care anyways...I posted what I did, and your response to my last post was inaccurate and ridiculous.

[Silent3]

39. False dichotomy much? n/t

[Sal316]

41. Miss the point much? n/t

[Evoman]

48. The point that you guys can't argue worth shit? Got that one right away.

And yeah, if was forced to choose between money and god, I'd choose money. Because even if the dollar bottoms out, I can still use the paper to wipe my ass. Put my faith in Jesus, all I would be is starving on the street with a dirty ass. Something that actually exists is usually preferable to a conman trying to sell you bullshit.

[raccoon]

26. I have the same problem with this sort of story.

However, having said that, life is difficult and whatever a person can get consolation or emotional support from (“whatever gets you through the night”), to help them get through a difficult time, OK with me. (When they start telling other people that the others are going to hell if they don’t think EXACTLY the way they do is when I start having a problem.)

[trotsky]

28. Sure, no big deal.

But what if someone gets consolation or emotional support from the idea that other races are inferior? That homosexuals are agents of Satan? Do we just live & let live? Are we out of line if we confront those attitudes - even if they AREN'T out there lynching or beating people?

Note, I'm not trying to equate what the OP said with those kinds of beliefs - but I am curious because people holding them use the exact same justification - they believe that's what their god wants, and they are absolutely convinced of it. If we are to declare further questioning off limits because of that, where will it lead? Where *has* it led?

[raccoon]

32. I don't know. Maybe we shouldn't declare further questioning off limits

when it gets past the believer's physical body? Sort of like, what's that old adage about my right to swing my fist ends at your nose?

[toddaa]

11. Thanks for writing

Here's what I think about your two points of certainty.

1) You could have picked any book, opened it and found a passage that brought calm. In fact, in China it would have the custom to cast yarrow sticks and consult the I Ching. I used to do that and found that everytime I did (using coins mind you), the hexagram was always meaningful to the question I asked and the situation I was faced with. These days, I consult Nietzsche's Zarathustra or Burrough's Naked Lunch and it works much the same way. Although Naked Lunch probably isn't a very good book for daily guidance and comfort.

2) Have you related this dream to your mom? Certainty comes from within your mind, which is very powerful at symbolic reasoning. Dreams are filled with symbolism and are the way our brain sorts out our thoughts and memories.

Take this not as criticism, but merely some things for you to think about. Or pray over, if you prefer. As I once heard Cornell West say, doubt is the foundation of his faith. West is a hell of a lot smarter than me, but I think you should never consider doubt something that most be combatted, but be used as a tool to either change your certainty or strengthen your faith.

:hi: back at ya.

[AlecBGreen]

14. not 100% sure about #1

You could have picked any book, opened it and found a passage that brought calm

I dont think the owners manual of my 1987 Volvo would have much to say about finding peace :P I know what you mean though. My point was that I was praying for guidance in a moment of extreme doubt, I heard "open the Bible," and the very first verse I laid eyes on was, essentially, "dont doubt yourself." Pretty amazing! The visceral, physical sensation at that same moment was the real eye-opener.

"Certainty comes from within your mind..." I tend to think so too, but both events had a transcendent "oh-my-God-what-is-happening-to-me?" feeling, like it was definitely something new and from somewhere 'out there.' Its hard to relate, especially over the intranets.

I like the quote about doubt from Cornell West. Who is/was he?

[toddaa]

42. See? Doubt has already taken root in your mind

If the owners manual to an '87 Volvo does not bring peace of mind, humanity is doomed.

The question you have to ask yourself about your Bible exercise is the frequency that this kind of event occurs. I will grant you that your circumstance was extremely meaningful to you personally, but you have to consider that doubt is a frequent topic in the New Testament.

In any case, subjective experience is what makes us who we are. Your certainty is in no way measurable or testable, but that in no way takes away its power. Just understand that others' subjective experiences under similar circumstances may lead to incompatible certainties.


http://www.cornelwest.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBXnbIUm12o

[AlecBGreen]

43. good ol' Mulva, still going strong @ 330,000 miles!

She idles rough, the right passenger door doesnt open, their is a rust spot through which I can *almost* see daylight, and God help me if she goes over 70 mph she shakes like you thought she was going to fly apart at the seems but man I love that car!

"The question you have to ask yourself about your Bible exercise is the frequency that this kind of event occurs." There have been two moments where the passage I opened to answered directly and unequivocally the question I was pondering; once in the OP and once just recently a few months ago. Not resounding evidence for a God who answers all your prayers, is it?

...doubt is a frequent topic in the New Testament." It is, though I think its more often in the context of people doubting the veracity of Christ's claim in the face of his sermons & miracles.

In any case, subjective experience is what makes us who we are. Your certainty is in no way measurable or testable, but that in no way takes away its power. Just understand that others' subjective experiences under similar circumstances may lead to incompatible certainties. No argument here :hi:

Im heading off to bed. Stage III food coma has set in. Ill check out those links you posted tomorrow. Thanks.

[AlecBGreen]

55. thanks for the links!

I really enjoyed the Craig Ferguson interview :hi:

[charlie]

16. The dream in the 2nd story

would've affirmed my solidarity with my fellow primates. The bunch in the 1st room were too fixated on a supernatural intermediary to notice each other. IOW, God(s) is superfluous.

I'm an atheist. Same movie, different reaction :)

[AlecBGreen]

17. I had never considered that interpretation

I took it to mean true worship is more about fellowship (eating & talking) than being lectured by a preacher

'fellow primates' lol. I like that

[charlie]

18. It's a Hitchens-ism

He regularly likes to point out that genetically, there's only a hair's difference between us and apes.

It's a good thing to remember once in a while. And it makes Fundies go bug-eyed :)

[AlecBGreen]

20. +1

"Its a good thing to remember once in a while..."

I agree 100%. To know they are so close to us and yet see how we treat them makes me sick to my stomach. Its good to remember they are family and should be treated as such.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/12/11/1gorilla_narrowweb__300x421,0.jpg

[GeorgeGist]

30. Holy $hit?

[Evoman]

34. I had a dream once where I killed god.

I'm not even kidding here.

In my dream, my brother and I were being chased by a bunch of god botherers who were trying to kill us for doing something (can't remember..I think it may have been throwing away a bible or something). I remember telling my brother that we wouldn't be able to break the spell until we killed the god responsible for these jerks. I told my brother to run one way, while I went after God. As I was running, I found a surfboard, jumped on it, and started flying on it up the clouds. The clouds were throwing lightning at me, but I dodged passed them and got to heaven.

When I got there, Jesus was there and told me to stop, and that I couldn't enter because I was too full of sin. Then he told me he had no control over his followers and nothing I did to him would stop them. I told him "fine, but I still need to talk to god". He yelled "never" and tried to kill me with a chainsaw. I drop kicked him, and he fell on the chainsaw and died. So then I grabbed the chainsaw and walked through the gate to heaven. I was attacked by ninja type angels. I killed em all. Then my chainsaw was a gatling gun and I shot god (who looked like the statue of liberty) to death.

I think at that point I transitioned into another dream about visiting a play in new york.

Anyways, god is dead. I killed him. I am your new god. Dreams are real.

[Silent3]

38. I wonder if my dreams would be anything like that...

...if I grew up with video games and ninja movies. :)

I don't recall a chainsaw or a gun of any sort figuring into any of my dreams. Not much violence in general. Nukes and tornadoes and big spiders and non-specifically scary or threatening presences on occasion, but not violent physical combat of the sort you describe. Maybe these things have happened, but not enough to have left any impressions I can remember.

[AlecBGreen]

44. I have 'snake' dreams all the time

Once every few months I wake up thinking there is a snake in bed. Sometimes I jump up and tear the sheets off. "Get up! There is a HUGE F***ING SNAKE IN THE BED!!1!" My wife was amused at first but has grown a little tired of it lately :7 Stupid snakes. It doesnt help that I have found copperheads crawling around...

[Silent3]

45. Perhaps you need this...

http://www.moviesounds.com/toystory/snake.wav

"Boots" instead of "bed" will have to do. :)

[Evoman]

46. I have killed SOOOO many people in my dreams.

I've died, I've killed, I've flown, and I've even played cards for 8 straights hours. I don't play tetris anymore because of the dreams it gives me. My dreams are cinematic and awesome, and I'm just about the biggest bad ass in them. Well, most of the time...I'm telling you, they get weird too...one time I had a dream Dennis Kucinich was trying to rape me. And fuck, I like Kucinich...but I sure didn't like him during the dream. Never been so glad to wake up as I did then, lol.

[AlecBGreen]

54. you had a dream of playing cards for 8 hours!?

what was that like?

p.s. DK trying to get fresh with you? AWK-waaard... lol

[Evoman]

58. Yes. I played poker.

Who knows though...could have been 15 minutes and felt like 8 hours.

[AlecBGreen]

59. yeah Ive had those 15 minute 'days long' dreams

Wake up @ 5, hit the snooze, fall back asleep and dream for what seems an eternity, then wake up 30 min later. So cool!

[LAGC]

49. So what do you say to all those people who aren't blessed with mystical experiences?

Who don't hear voices (a sign of latent schizophrenia, by the way) or get that tingly feeling upon stumbling across a peculiar coincidence?

Why won't God reveal himself to everyone as easily as he apparently did to you? Does he not want us to believe in him?

[AlecBGreen]

53. I say if you dont have them, keep seeking

Simultaneously I ask, can you gain anything from mine? Personal experiences such as the two I mentioned are obviously, by definition, personal. That does not mean I should keep them sealed up, or that these experiences might not benefit others. My faith has come from a long line of shared experiences, from the early OT prophets to the writers of the NT to my friends and relatives.

To be clear, I give equal credence to YOUR experiences LAGC. Say what you have to say and I will weigh that against what I have experienced and believe to be true.

"Why won't God reveal himself to everyone as easily as he apparently did to you? Does he not want us to believe in him?"

How hard to you look? (this is an earnest question, not rhetorical. I do not know you, your circumstances, or your efforts. I hate communicating over the internet sometimes...) Do you pray, or meditate, or spend time in quiet reflection? That is a good place to start. Isaiah described God's voice as being like a sparrow in a whirlwind. I like that analogy! This quote from Franz Kafka illustrates it well: "You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet." The psalmist echoes this: "BE STILL and know that I am God."

[cleanhippie]

56. Why should have to look?

If your god is so bad-ass, he should just end all the doubt, all the suffering done in his name and just let everyone know whats up?

You argument to "keep looking" and "look harder" only proves the point that if one looks hard enough, one can "find" whatever it is they are looking for, like a pattern in wood of jesus, or on a cheese sandwich... . To me, that is such a cop-out answer.

[humblebum]

50. Great post Alec. Honest, admirable, and not unlike

the experiences of many, many others who go seeking.

[LAGC]

51. Look for anything make believe hard enough...

And you will eventually find what you are looking for.

[humblebum]

52. So ya mean if I keep looking for that Leprechaun and the pot of gold

I'll find him? All Right!

[cleanhippie]

57. maybe, but then again...

there are pictures of jesus on toast, water stains, cheetoes, and even a dog's anus (I am not making that up), which just shows that if your REALLY want to see something, you can make yourself see it. Its called Pareidolia (sometimes called simulacra).


Pareidolia is a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (often an image or sound) being perceived as significant. Common examples include seeing images of animals or faces in clouds. There have been many instances of perceptions of religious imagery and themes, especially the faces of religious figures, in ordinary phenomena. Many involve images of Jesus, the Virgin Mary, or the word Allah. In 1978, a New Mexican woman found that the burn marks on a tortilla she had made appeared similar to the traditional western depiction of Jesus Christ's face. Thousands of people came to see the framed tortilla.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia#Religious

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptions_of_religious_imagery_in_natural_phenomena