blaming atheism for the crimes of Nazi Germany

[DemocratAholic]

I saw a speech with author Eric Metaxas on Book TV. He has written a book about Dietrich Bonhoeffer called Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy.

I have a real problem with this author, Eric Metaxas. He holds himself up as a historian, but if you watch this speech, his "history" and conclusions are intertwined with religious beliefs, and an all out attack against atheists (and agnostics). He is giving this speech at the Central Queens Y in Forest Hills, NY, which has a relatively large number of Holocaust survivors who live in the area, and a number of them turned out for this lecture.

He comments in this lecture that Hitler was not really a Christian, stating that Hitler was merely using the Church as a way to fool people. I suppose you could make argument that Hitler did not adhere to so-called Christian beliefs. He neglects to point out (or discounts the fact) how many organized Christians throughout Germany, and throughout the world, failed to speak out against Hitler, and at times seemed to be his biggest apologists.

At the end of Metaxas's speech, he comments about people who do not believe in God (atheists/agnostics), saying they cannot condemn evil because they do not believe in evil, specifically referring to the evil of the Holocaust, clearly implying that people who do not believe in God are (by definition) Nazi apologists.

Recently, the Pope was making very similar statements, linking atheism to the crimes of Nazi Germany.

I think that what we are witnessing here is an attempt by some so-called "Christians" to rewrite history. Not only to excuse organized religions' behavior during the war, but now to put the blame on "atheism." History is quite clear about what the Vatican did (and did not do) during WWII.

A quote from Pope Pius XII in 1942, in the midst of the Holocaust: "Jerusalem has responded to His call and to His grace with the same rigid blindness and stubborn ingratitude that has led it along the path of guilt to the murder of God." In case that sentence does not make sense to you, Pope Pius XII was blaming Jews for murdering Jesus. He was making that claim at the same time Hitler was murdering millions of Jews. In fact, he was basically parroting the same words as Hitler.

I am not trying to discount the fact that there were many Christians who spoke up against Hitler, certainly that is true. However, it is also true that many did not, including the head of the most powerful Christian church in the world. Pope Pius XII was saying things in the midst of the Holocaust to denigrate Jews.

Furthermore, the assertion that Hitler was an "atheist" is simply not true. In fact, Hitler was clearly opposed to atheism, and used the that as grounds for attacking the Soviet Union. While Hitler may not have been the type of Christian that many Christians would like to be identified with, he did proclaim himself a Christian, and consistently used the argument that Jews had murdered Jesus as a way to justify his treatment of Jews.

As an agnostic myself, I find it offensive and despicable to suggest that because I do not belong to some organized religion, that I am incapable of discerning "evil," or that I do not believe that evil exists. Even worse, trying to turn the conversation around from culpability of churches during the time of the Holocaust, to blaming "atheists." I think that atheists and agnostics have to speak up loudly against this, because this seems to an assertion that is gaining steam with many so-called Christians.

Here is a link to the speech Metaxas gives about his book:
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Bonh

[msongs]

1. hitler was huge on god, god making germans special & chrstians were huge on killing jews nt

[Warpy]

3. And the Pope was licking his jackboots the whole time

for a number of reasons. That's the one thing Rome is trying to live down by blaming everything on atheists. It doesn't work and will never work on anyone who has read history. It will only work on the ignorant faithful.

Sadly, those are never in short supply.

[whathehell]

6. You're using nazis as equivalents to "christians"?

Give me a break....The majority religion in the West is/was Christian and that means that
those who STOPPED Hitler were mostly Christian as well.

The analogy is about as good as using 9/11 to say:

"Muslims are huge on killing Americans"

[Kolesar]

2. Spanish fascists rallied against the godless

The godless were considered to be decadent and a threat to families.

I attended an excellent museum exhibition at the Cleveland Museum of Art that explained what happened as the fascists took over Spain. They identified their enemies as the godless, the homosexuals, and the decadent arts movement.

[MrModerate]

4. As an evil genius -- a term I use without any irony at all . . .

Hitler's relationship to religion was (by all reports) extremely complicated, almost certainly not in line with what we would recognize as "Christian virtues," and a force he wielded as a weapon of war and oppression -- as he did so many other forces.

But Hitler also offers a real-world example of why you don't need to believe in supernatural beings to believe in evil. And why, IMO, belief in supernatural evil -- as opposed by that resulting from the acts of human beings -- is debilitating and foolish.

Resisting satanic forces gets you nowhere; resisting evil men is the duty of the good. Religion just muddies that simple relationship.

[Kurovski]

19. Excellent.

Evil is done by humans. "the devil made me do it" is horseshit.

[stopbush]

5. It doesn't matter how much evidence one presents that the Nazis and Hitler

were Christians. The Christians will continue to say they weren't "real" Xians.

That conveniently ignores not only the history of Xianity but the anti-human words of Jesus himself.

As Christopher Hitchens has pointed out, religion is totalitarianism writ large. Is it any wonder that totalitarian regimes embrace both the trappings and the messages of religion?

Numerous speeches by Hitler refer to "our Lord, Jesus Christ." The Nazis had the words "God is with us" on the belt buckles of their uniforms. The RCC was aligned with the Nazis throughout the war. Nazi rallies took on all the trappings of fervent religious gatherings. And on and on it goes. Yet to Christians, the Nazis were atheists.

Right.

[whathehell]

7. When religions act act as institutions

you can blame that religious institution...When individuals born into a given religion act as individuals...All bets are off.

for example: Wasn't Stalin an atheist?..Or was he not a "real" atheist?

Weren't (to name two) Jack Abramoff and Bernie Madoff Jews?...Or weren't they "real" Jews"?

It's not about religion or the lack of such...It's about fucked up individuals...It's so frigging obvious that what some blame on "atheism"
is a big yawn to me...Consider the source(s) people!

[stopbush]

9. Was Stalin an atheist? Yes, in later life, after he had studied at

the Georgian Orthodox Seminary in his youth, where he learned the importance of religious indoctrination and the worship of religious systems and icons. He later put these types of systems to good use in his Soviet state, replacing worship of gods with worship of the state.

I believe that he was very much a "real" atheist when he was at his worst. But I don't think one can say that he did his evil "in the name of atheism." He did his evil in the name of the Soviet state, which is to say he did it in his name. Atheism was not a rallying cry for the Soviets, whereas Xianity certainly was a rallying cry for the Nazis.

[whathehell]

13. Why do you only address Stalin?

What about the other individuals and points addressed?

Oh that's right..They don't serve the christian hating agenda well, do they?



BTW, Christianity was as much (less, actually) a "rallying cry" for the nazis as "Islam" is for Al Queda.


Trying to turn "xtians" into nazis is absurd...Something only the most ignorant bigot will buy.

[Ozymanithrax]

8. When ever one Christian does something others disagree with...

they claim he isn't really a Christian.

The KKK are Christian to the core, even when they burned crosses and hung black people.
Religious people don't like to think that their religion is a two edged sword, that it can cut as deeply as it heals.

[jberryhill]

12. They don't "burn" crosses, they "light" them

Scottish warriors had been illuminating the cross of St Andrew before battle for a long time.

[whathehell]

14. That's funny.....

I've heard orthodox jews claim reforminst jews aren't "really jews"....Irish americans aren't really "Irish"....Sunni Muslims aren't really "muslims"

The purists will always be with us....So what's with all the focus on christians?


C'mon, kids!..Spread that hate AROUND!



There's so many religions, cultures, and people to hate...Broaden your agenda!!

[DeSwiss]

10. K&R n/t

[jberryhill]

11. Evangelical Christians were the overwhelming majority in Germany

Frankly, the pope didn't have much interest or influence there.

Evangelical Christians have been trying to airbrush themselves out of the Nazi picture for a long time.

[whathehell]

15. Really?

I heard nazism started in mainly catholic Bavaria.

Have a link for your assertion?

[jberryhill]

16. Sure

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

Protestants 3 to 1. And you have to remember that in Germany "Protestants" are the direct legacy of Luther. Then read Luther's treatise "On The Jews And Their Lies".

Luther's Bible standardized German, gave the princes a justification for breaking with Rome, and his ideas provided the foundation for an organized anti-Jewish purge of Germany. Nazism is his baby more than Nietzsche or the latest fashion in Evangelical guilt shifting.

[whathehell]

17. Interesting..

I'll have to inform my Lutheran-raised spouse.

[jberryhill]

18. 20th century US Lutherans are another story

[backscatter712]

20. The "Hitler wasn't really a Christian" argument stinks of No True Scotsman.

If it's not an actual instance of the No True Scotsman fallacy, it comes awfully close.

Actually, scratch that, it IS an instance of No True Scotsman.