I'm tired of being told I live in a "judeo christian" society.

[howard112211]

I don't. I live in a secular society with freedoms that exist, not because of the churches, but despite them.

The churches contributed nothing of substance to them, in terms of the values that define "western" civilization.

All the freedoms that we have, every inch of progress, was fought to the blood by the churches, and scores of people were killed over the ages establishing these freedoms against the will of the churches.

If the churches had had their way, we would still have a "divine emperor", not democracy, women would be pregnant and barefoot behind the stove, and the world would still be flat and 6000 years old.

If the christian churches had had it their way, there would be no jews.

It is a shame that christianity now seeks to take credit for a society that it worked so hard to destroy.

[saltpoint]

1. From Shaw: "Christianity might be a good thing if

anybody ever tried it."

I often feel we live in a cash register society.

The parts of Judeo-Christian ideology and culture that are truly beneficial are in short supply while a great deal of the bad parts seem to dominate.

[Skip Intro]

2. You direct your anger toward all religions, then, correct? Not just Christianity.

[Lyric]

8. What other religions are trying to claim secular power?

Are there rogue Buddhists and Zoroastrians who are trying to turn our nation into a theocracy? Is there a large and vocal contingent of Wiccans or Hindus who claim that THEY are the "foundation" of America, and thus, should wield governmental power in the name of their deities? Is there some other religion that's attempting to mount a serious and well-funded threat to America's secular government?

:shrug:

[Skip Intro]

9. What religions are not?

[Angry Dragon]

10. The Jewish religion for one

[ZombieHorde]

17. Taoists? Wiccans? Thelemites? Satanists?

Discordians have not tried, but they have succeeded.

[cleanhippie]

20. All of them, except christianity.

Thats the point of his response to your question. What religions do YOU feel are on par with christianity in this country?

[RKP5637]

3. Recommend! n/t

[nc4bo]

4. I hear ya but please don't limit yourself to just Christianity. nt

[howard112211]

6. What other religion gets advertised as having influenced our society fundamentally?

My argument is directed towards the fact that "judeo christian" background is what gets claimed. No one ever said we live in a "buddhistic" or "islamic" society.

[nc4bo]

7. Yes you are right..

I apologize for going all rogue on your post. Please don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100%!

I'm just sick and tired of any religion being used to control PEOPLE by embedding itself into the politics of a society. America is a prime example but there are others that do just as much harm that's all I was saying.

The Christian Right, to be specific, are exactly what they proclaim NOT to be, anti-Christs and anti-Christian.

**OT**

I am reading this ---->: http://atheism.about.com/od/religiousright/ig/Christian-Propaganda-Posters/One-Nation-Under-God.--3V.htm and feel like an unmonitored pressure cooker.

[spin]

11. One reason that you never hear that we live in a "buddhistic" or "islamic" society ...

is that we don't.


source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian

Religion has had an role in how our nation developed and the predominate religions in our country have been and are Christianity and Judaism.

Strangely, this may not be what the founding fathers really wanted...

One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded". However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.

When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not once.

The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority.

The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion" (see below). This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.


http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

[DeschutesRiver]

13. Thanks for posting that. As I recall from long ago reading

of many of the founding fathers' thoughts, what the christian far right is claiming is simply not true in the slightest.

[howard112211]

14. Amazing, isn't it? How they try to rewrite history?

The christian right live in a fantasy land.

[spin]

16. For example Thomas Jefferson...

THOMAS JEFFERSON ON CHRISTIANITY & RELIGION

In spite of right-wing Christian attempts to rewrite history to make Jefferson into a Christian, little about his philosophy resembles that of Christianity. Although Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence wrote of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, there exists nothing in the Declaration about Christianity.

Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.

Distortions of history occur in the minds of many Christians whenever they see the word "God" embossed in statue or memorial concrete. For example, those who visit the Jefferson Memorial in Washington will read Jefferson's words engraved: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man." When they see the word "God" many Christians see this as "proof" of his Christianity without thinking that "God" can have many definitions ranging from nature to supernatural. Yet how many of them realize that this passage aimed at attacking the tyranny of the Christian clergy of Philadelphia, or that Jefferson's God was not the personal god of Christianity? Those memorial words came from a letter written to Benjamin Rush in 1800 in response to Rush's warning about the Philadelphia clergy attacking Jefferson (Jefferson was seen as an infidel by his enemies during his election for President). The complete statement reads as follows:

"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . ."
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Some other interesting quotes from the founding fathers:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams

source: http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/dispatch/fathers_quote2.htm

[MichaelHarris]

5. me too!

I know nothing about kung foo or judeo.

[starroute]

12. The "Judeo" part always seemed to me like pretty much of a shuck

And looking at the Wikipedia article on the term "Judeo-Christian," I think I was right. Apparently it was originated by Friedrich Nietzsche as a way of attacking Christianity for what he saw as its unacceptably Jewish roots. The present use of it in the United States came about only after the rise of Nazism as a way of pushing back against the insinuation that Jewish culture was somehow alien and foreign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian

The present meaning was for the first time used on 27 July 1939 with the phrase "The Judaeo-Christian scheme of morals" in the New English Weekly. The term gained much greater currency particularly in the political sphere from the 1920s and 1930s, promoted by liberal groups which evolved into the National Conference of Christians and Jews, to fight antisemitism by expressing a more inclusive idea of the United States of America than the previously dominant rhetoric of the nation as a specifically Christian Protestant country. By 1952 President-Elect Dwight Eisenhower was speaking of the "Judeo–Christian concept" being the "deeply religious faith" on which "our sense of government... is founded".

But for most people who use the term today -- especially on the right -- nothing has really changed. Their understanding of "Judeo" means the Ten Commandments and the other Old Testament stuff. It doesn't have much to do with actual present-day Jews, who are still portrayed as alien and foreign under thinly disguised terms like "East Coast elites" or "Hollywood elites."

If it wasn't for a lingering fear that someone might compare them to Hitler, they'd be cheerfully consigning Judaism to the margins along with Islam and Buddhism, instead of trying to coopt it for their project of white Christian supremacy.

[Quantess]

15. Religious Fundamentalism is the scourge of humanity.

I don't care which religion we are talking about. Religious extremism is dangerous and unhealthy.

[Shanti Mama]

18. I understand, but try living in a society/culture that has different roots

US culture and ethics (the day to day kind) have Christian roots. Live in a country with Hindu or Islamic roots, even if with a secular government, and I think you'll feel the difference. So, in this sense, if you live in America, you do live in a judeo-christian society.

[dmallind]

21. So what ethics are uniquely or originally Jewish or Christian exactly?

[Flying Squirrel]

19. Nothin wrong with being barefoot and pregnant behind a stove

(as long as that's what you want!)

:P

Seriously though, I just love your initial statement - freedoms that exist, not because of the churches, but despite them.

:applause: