A sincere question to believers

[xfundy]

I've been called out for expressing "hatred" toward Christians, when I've pointed out actions and statements made by those who profess Christianity, yet I've been told, over and over, "but they're not REAL Christians!"

Apparently, a "Real Christian" or a "True Christian" is definable only in the mind of the individual, and authoritative only in the precise moment that distinction is made.

Can you honestly not see the frustration those of us who don't want to belittle anyone who doesn't deserve belittling must endure? What is the STANDARD for who is or is not a "Real Christian?" Is it whether they take the bible literally, and actually believe that donkeys and snakes can talk? Or that rabbits chew their cud? Or is a "Real Christian" one who actually follows the instructions attributed to Jesus?

And just who is qualified to make the distinction?

I chanced upon this a minute ago, and I'd like to hear sincere discussion on it, if you like (or if you just want to bitch and complain, go ahead, though that's long since jumped the shark):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRctKSeyQ-s

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

1. I guess I'll take this one, since you could say I have a unique perspective on the issue.

The word "Christian" means "Christ-like".

If you read the Gospels, you get a pretty good idea what I did in My life on Earth, and what My teachings were all about.

Someone who calls him or herself a Christian should do their best to live by My example. I'm sure we all can think of those so-called "Christians" who aren't even making an attempt. Frankly, I look at them, and wonder why I even bothered going through with that whole crucifixion thing.

[xfundy]

4. OK, so...

That whole 'walking on water' thing-- didn't you do that the same way Peter Sellers did it at Biltmore Estate in "Being There?"

[napi21]

2. Your qquestion is answered the same way someone defines

"judges legislating from the bench". In religion & politics, the right thing is something that YOU agree with anything else is wrong.

[azul]

3. Jesus, is the Christ, the manifestation of God in this world to Christians.

Jesus, in his life and teachings, was all about love and forgiveness.

Take it from there. Others have, and seem to have engendered disagreements, and even battles and wars.

[rpannier]

5. One could make the same argument about any group

I've been told by many Atheists that they are more tolerant than Christians

I am quick to point to Christopher Hitchens who belittles and insults anyone who disagrees with him and Ayn Rand who was a groupie for a child killer

It's all in how you frame it

[elocs]

6. A scripture that may help give an explanation:

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:35)

Add to this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." along with :If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right." (James 2:8).

Or as Jesus said in Matthew 7:15, 16: "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are savage wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

It is really not difficult to figure out who are the real and true Christians. You will know they are Christians by their love for one another and by their love for their neighbor. Who is your neighbor? Jesus covered this in the parable about the good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37):

<25> On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

<26> "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

<27> He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

<28> "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

<29> But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

<30> In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. <31> A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. <32> So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. <33> But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. <34> He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. <35> The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

<36> "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

<37> The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."

Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

So it really is all about love. There are millions today who profess to be Christians who Jesus would have nothing to do with. Actually, if Jesus were walking the world today these same people would condemn him as being a radical Liberal, a homeless man, a bum who should get a job. In the end they would kill him the way they did the first time.

[humblebum]

7. No offense but concerning your statement:

"Can you honestly not see the frustration those of us who don't want to belittle anyone who doesn't deserve belittling must endure?" - myself and others have been listening to this dribble for so long now we really don't care what you think anymore. for not wanting to belittle someone, you sure spend an inordinate amount of time doing it.

[xfundy]

8. Ha, ha.

You have revealed yourself to be intolerant, obtrusive, obfuscatory and abrasive in other posts I've read tonight. Why on earth would you expect or demand that anyone else give a fuck what you think?

Remember, donkeys can talk and people can fly and a man named Jebus lives up in the sky. No wonder you assholes are losing the battle you declared on the rest of us.

[humblebum]

9. Never let that be said of you. Didn't you used to play

Ernest T. Bass on Andy Griffith?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

10. logically a Christian can do anything.

Because of two things:

Why?
Because the term "True Christian" is a logical fallacy, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Anyone can say they are a Christian. And they don't have to be a good person. They can do bad things. Why? Because Jesus was full of cruelty and cursing those who didn't agree with him. He had no problem with the mass slaughter of innocents in the Old Testament. There are many examples of Jesus being mean and vindictive. "I come not in peace, but with a sword" is but one example.

It's absolutely meaningless.

BTW, I have never heard Christopher Hitchens bully anyone. He merely recites unpleasant facts about religion, and the ugly things it makes people do, and people who don't like it think he's a bully.

I've read Hitch-22 and God Is Not Great.

[Igel]

14. No, "true Xian" isn't necessarily a meaningless term.

As commonly used, it serves as a distinguisher between those the speaker judges to be good and righteous (or whatever the metric is) and those disapproved of. It's semantics involve attitude and evaluation and are therefore really tricky to represent in a simple manner.

It's like "good person." It's not semantically vacuous; it's just so subjective a phrase as to be undefinable apart from a detailed knowledge of what the speaker judges to be "good".

Ultimately, if you're a Xian, the judgment isn't your own but God's/Jesus', but that's only because God's judgment is taken to have a rather different status than a person's private judgment.

In any event, "Christian" is, by itself, fairly ambiguous. There are lots of definitions but most don't feel permitted to apply them. Those who do are considered rude and boorish. Muslims don't engage in takfir, and neither do Xians. In both cases it means that all that's left is a very basic definition--the least common denominator--and you're forced allow those who you really don't want share a designation with into your group. If you don't decry the 9/11 attackers as non-Muslims, they're left being Muslims; if you don't want to say that the abortion clinic bomber wasn't a Xian, then he shares your faith. You make the distinction and it's boorish. So you're left with saying not that so-and-so isn't a Xian/Muslim, but not a "true" or "good" Christian or Muslim. Civility.

[wookie72]

16. I agree with you that it's a fallacy

But not about anything else. Hitchens not a bully? Are you serious?

What about how he tries to negate any criticism of the Iraq invasion with mawkish claims about solidarity with the Kurds?

And while I haven't read in detail his criticism of Christianity, his grasp of Buddhism is ludicrous.

But I believe the point was that Hitchens (and Harris, and Dawkins) try to brush off criticism of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot by saying that they weren't "real atheists." So, essentially the same thing.

[AlecBGreen]

20. wow I need to re-read the NT

"Because Jesus was full of cruelty and cursing those who didn't agree with him."

FULL OF CRUELTY is a pretty heavy assertion. Could you cite some examples? (assuming he exists of course). He was pretty hard on the Pharisees but I wouldnt call that cruel.

"There are many examples of Jesus being mean and vindictive. "I come not in peace, but with a sword" is but one example."

OK, there are many examples. Could you cite a few?

edit - the only thing I can think of is when he is really lambasting the Pharisees & scribes for being hypocrites. He curses them and says they are bound for hell. Is this what you're referring to? Calling a lying, thieving drunk a lying, thieving drunk isnt cruel, even if it hurts their feelings. It is what it is.

[JeffersonChick]

11. As Gandhi said...

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
- Mohandas Gandhi

For me, my first clue is if they say, "I'm a Christian". Then I figure it's a 95% that they're not a "true" Christian.

The most Christian people I know, are not even "Christians" (in name). IMHO, when one is a true Christian, (s)he no longer needs to affiliate with a Christian church. Why continue to try to use an interpreter, when you can speak the language?

[rrneck]

12. If christianaty is a religion

why can't Christians exhibit better ideological cohesion? Why can't Christians police their own ranks? It's probably because the religion itself is little more than a consumer product that can be used any way the person that pays for it wants. If Christianity would spend half as much effort creating a practice of faith that actually does people some good as it spends hawking its economic utility on every street corner like a two dollar whore it would help.

[Igel]

15. It's not a religion.

It's a continuum of fairly similar religions; since most express the desirability of some behavioral conformity, it has an effect on the culture.

We can't police our own ranks because no Xian religious group has authority over another; the best we can do is police our own congregations or our own denominations.

These are important points. Until different Xian groups mixed and were confronted with dissimilar religions ecumenism was an ethereal, elite idea: It used to be that Catholicism and Lutheranism were simply considered different religions. Whether they're considered different religions now varies by context: Confronted with Islam, they're both Xianity, but when poaching from each other the commonalities pale in the face of differences.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. It's called "evolution"

Islam and Buddhism are also very diverse. Westerners just don't know much about them.

[wookie72]

19. Make up your mind

You complain that Christianity tells people what to do, then complain that the people don't do it.

[rug]

13. You confuse labels with motivations.

[wookie72]

17. For me, it's actions, not words

If you help the poor, look after the sick, and stand up for the prisoner and the oppressed, you're on your way.

I wouldn't say that, for example, Terry Jones, is not a "real Christian." I *might* say that his actions and words are unChristian, but that's not for me to decide.

What I would resent is that if I call myself Christian, that you assume that you know what I believe and do, and are upset if I don't fit into that little box.