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daggahead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 12:41 PM Original message |
Question about written history and The Bible |
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lost-in-nj (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 12:56 PM Response to Original message |
1. good question... |
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Taverner (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 01:02 PM Response to Original message |
2. There is only the account of Josephus, the official documentarian of Rome in Judea at the time |
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Deep13 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 01:04 PM Response to Original message |
3. You raise an interesting point.... |
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daggahead (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 01:09 PM Response to Reply #3 |
4. It had just dawned on me the other day ... |
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Deep13 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 01:20 PM Response to Reply #4 |
6. Part of the problem is that the events Matthew cites ... |
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Schema Thing (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 01:12 PM Response to Original message |
5. he's mentioned twice (?) in the works of Josephus |
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Goblinmonger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 01:23 PM Response to Reply #5 |
8. "Thought by some"? |
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Deep13 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 01:23 PM Response to Reply #5 |
9. Josephus 37-100 c.e. |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 01:22 PM Response to Original message |
7. If there was a Jesus, he was a purely Jewish problem, not a Roman one, |
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Deep13 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 01:32 PM Response to Reply #7 |
10. The events the NT describes would have been obvious to anyone. |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 01:51 PM Response to Reply #10 |
12. That is precisely the kind of writing that tends not to survive |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 02:16 PM Response to Reply #12 |
15. Only of interest to Lazarus' neighbors and family? |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 03:30 PM Response to Reply #15 |
17. The Romans investigating it? |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 03:42 PM Response to Reply #15 |
18. Why would Rome care what a bunch of animal Jew peasants said? |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 05:44 PM Response to Reply #15 |
25. To both of you: |
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trotsky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 07:15 PM Response to Reply #25 |
31. C'mon, darkstar3, you know very well the answer to this. |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 11:02 PM Response to Reply #31 |
38. I know that, and YOU know that...n/t |
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Deep13 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 03:53 PM Response to Reply #12 |
21. Still, it's a lack of evidence. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 03:23 PM Response to Reply #10 |
16. Leaving aside theology, and considering only the historical issues about culture, |
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Deep13 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 03:50 PM Response to Reply #16 |
20. Well, I think enough people might take it seriously to at least... |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 04:23 PM Response to Reply #20 |
23. But there are class issues here. The Romans had a colony there; |
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Deep13 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 07:23 PM Response to Reply #23 |
32. All that is true. Pretty much an "Exhibit A" in proving the evil of imperialism. |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 04:24 PM Response to Reply #20 |
24. They didn't have newspapers, TV, magazines, or any of the other mass media that we have |
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LAGC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 05:55 PM Response to Reply #24 |
27. That's all terribly convenient. |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 06:02 PM Response to Reply #27 |
28. You took my next move, |
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Deep13 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 07:07 PM Response to Reply #24 |
29. That's probably true. Still, THIS rumor didn't... |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 01:44 PM Response to Reply #7 |
11. Now one can say that the martyrs outside Judea were merely deluded |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 02:10 PM Response to Reply #11 |
13. Specious. |
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trotsky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 02:13 PM Response to Reply #11 |
14. And what about the "founders" of the movement? |
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Dogtown (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 03:44 PM Response to Reply #11 |
19. What is your source for the claim |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 04:22 PM Response to Reply #19 |
22. No, they were persecuted for refusing to burn incense before statues of the emperor or |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 05:47 PM Response to Reply #22 |
26. And where is your source for this information. |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 09:15 PM Response to Reply #26 |
33. A friend of mine whose specialty is late Roman history |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 09:24 PM Response to Reply #33 |
34. And are the materials that your friend uses available for us to read? |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 09:37 PM Response to Reply #34 |
35. Don't know--haven't looked |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 09:46 PM Response to Reply #35 |
36. I have tried looking up your claims of early persecution before, |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 10:59 PM Response to Reply #36 |
37. Do your own research if you really care-- |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 11:07 PM Response to Reply #37 |
39. Which is another way of saying you didn't do your own. n/t |
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54anickel (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 12:16 AM Response to Reply #37 |
42. Had to dig for some old text books....I remember spending a good part of a semester on |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 12:33 AM Response to Reply #42 |
43. Finally, someone names a book. |
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54anickel (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 01:07 AM Response to Reply #43 |
44. Hmmm, didn't cover that in class. Do you happen to have a source? |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 08:25 AM Response to Reply #44 |
50. Sure. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 08:13 AM Response to Reply #43 |
47. What original Roman manuscripts do you imagine remain? To survive, |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 08:23 AM Response to Reply #47 |
49. Now you see my problem. |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 09:24 PM Response to Reply #49 |
58. If you only countenance such history as can be documented by |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 09:30 PM Response to Reply #58 |
59. The subject of history IS sparse, |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 10:20 AM Response to Reply #47 |
56. BTW: |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 08:20 AM Response to Reply #43 |
48. It seems incoherent to complain Pliny was not printed until around 1500 |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 08:27 AM Response to Reply #48 |
51. Whether printed on a press or hand-written, |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 09:46 AM Response to Reply #51 |
53. So your assertions are just as unprovable as mine |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 09:48 AM Response to Reply #53 |
54. And what assertions would those be? n/t |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jun-09-10 08:42 AM Response to Reply #53 |
60. Nothing to say? I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. n/t |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jun-09-10 09:42 AM Response to Reply #60 |
61. Your assertion that there is no independent evidence of Jesus existing, so |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jun-09-10 10:06 AM Response to Reply #61 |
62. And where did you find that assertion? Please point to a post # that even implies such. n/t |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jun-09-10 10:50 AM Response to Reply #62 |
63. Everything you've written since you first appeared in this forum |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jun-09-10 11:52 AM Response to Reply #63 |
64. That is false, and a pathetic attempt at generalization. |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 12:00 AM Response to Reply #34 |
40. Yes - any history book dealing with the Roman Empire of that time |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 12:13 AM Response to Reply #40 |
41. Then it should be easy for you to show us a source. |
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trotsky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 06:53 AM Response to Reply #40 |
45. Ah but we're not talking about early Christians. You're changing the subject. |
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trotsky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-07-10 07:11 PM Response to Reply #22 |
30. Those goalposts are already well on the move. |
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Dogtown (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 07:35 AM Response to Reply #22 |
46. Lighten up, Lydia. |
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Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 09:44 AM Response to Reply #46 |
52. There are people on this forum who find the very idea of religion offensive, |
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darkstar3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 10:12 AM Response to Reply #52 |
55. If you don't like what you're watching, change the channel. |
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trotsky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-08-10 01:39 PM Response to Reply #52 |
57. "For years, I have insisted in this forum that religion is experiential, not intellectual" |
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AlecBGreen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-11-10 01:01 PM Response to Reply #57 |
66. here's my take |
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skepticscott (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jun-10-10 05:56 PM Response to Reply #22 |
65. That's true...it was never really a case of the Romans |
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