What Conservative Catholics believe

[Nikki Stone1]

http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/conservative1.htm

A Conservative Catholic Point of View

1. Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium is a reflection of the Father, Son, Spirit. Just as the Father-Son-Spirit share one Divine Nature, so also does Tradition-Scripture-Magisterium share one Divine Revelation. Just as the Son proceeds from the Father, so also does Scripture proceed from Tradition. Just as the Spirit proceeds primarily from the Father and secondarily from the Son, so also does the Magisterium proceed primarily from Tradition and secondarily from Scripture. Just as the one Trinity is infallible in all things, so also is the one Divine Revelation infallible in all things. Scripture is infallible in all respects: without error, omission, or imperfection.

2. I believe that the teaching of the holy Roman Catholic Church is God's teaching, without exception. The teaching of the Magisterium includes the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils (including Vatican II and any subsequent Ecumenical Councils), and the teachings of the Popes (including those since Vatican II), and all the teachings of Tradition and Scripture and the body of Bishops led by the Pope.

3. Catholics should believe and practice what the Church teaches. Catholics should attend Mass and receive Communion daily, go to confession at least once a month, and pray the Rosary and the Divine Mercy Chaplet and other prayers daily. Catholics should read, and be familiar with, the Bible, the teachings of the Church, and the writings of the Saints.

4. Bishops, priests, deacons, and religious should be very holy. They should not have any addiction or strong attachment to sin or anything related to sin. They should believe and practice all that the Church teaches. If they break their vow of chastity, they should be removed. Women cannot be ordained to the priesthood or the episcopate; women should not be ordained to the deaconate.

5. Homosexuals should never be ordained. Unrepentant and/or sexually-active homosexuals should not be allowed to receive the Sacraments, or attend liturgical services, or be accepted as members of any parish. Homosexuals should never have positions of leadership in the Church. Any bishops, priests, deacons, or religious who are found to be homosexual should be removed. Homosexuals should not be allowed to marry or to adopt children.

6. Catholic theologians should be believe and practice all that the Church teaches. Each Catholic theologian should frequently receive the Sacraments and should pray devoutly every day. Catholic theologians who undermine or contradict the clear and definitive teaching of the Magisterium should not be allowed to teach at Catholic institutions.

7. Abortion is always gravely immoral. All abortion should be illegal everywhere. Contraception is always gravely immoral. Natural Family Planning, when understood and used correctly, is not contraception and is moral. Sex outside of marriage is always gravely immoral. Church teaching on all issues of sexuality should be believed and practiced by all.

8. God intends men and women to have different roles, different behaviors, and different clothing. God intends men to be the leaders in society, the family, and the Church. Women should not have positions of teaching or leadership over adult men in society, the family, or the Church. Women should not be on parish councils. Women should not be lectors, extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, or ushers. Bishops and priests should not give positions of leadership and authority over men to women in any diocese or parish. Wives should be submissive and obedient to their husbands in Christ.

9. Men should take leadership roles in society, the family, and the Church. Men should seek God's will concerning the place that each is given by God in Creation. When men fail to take the proper roles given to them by God, disorder and confusion results within society, the family, and the Church.

10. Women should show their understanding and acceptance of the place God has given them in Creation by dressing and acting like women, not like men. For example, women should dress in a feminine manner, wearing skirts and dresses instead of pants, wearing some jewelry and make up (though not to excess), and grooming their hair in a feminine manner. Such external signs make a statement about the internal beliefs and attitude of the woman. The Virgin Mary would never dress or act like a man. Women should wear a headcovering or veil when they are at Mass or at prayer. Such veils need not cover the face. The veil or headcovering is a symbol of the woman's acceptance of her role in society, the family, and the Church, in accordance with God's will. It is an imitation of the Virgin Mary, who wore such a headcovering.

11. God intends people of different ages to have different roles, different behaviors, and different clothing. Children should not be given adult roles in society, the family, or the Church. Children should not have roles of leadership in the parish over adults, including lector, minister of the Eucharist, and usher. Children should not participate in adult decisions in the family. Children should not be put in the position of teaching or leading adults. Adults of different ages should have different roles. Some roles in society, the family, or the Church are only appropriate for an older man or woman; other roles are only appropriate for a younger person.

12. Divorce is usually caused by the husband and wife refusing to accept the proper roles given to them by God within the family. When the husband does not take his proper role as leader and head of the family, disorder fractures the marriage. When the wife tries to be leader of the family instead of her husband, disorder harms the marriage and the family. When the husband and wife try to be co-leaders in the family, with each having the same role, conflict and disorder results. A family will have its proper order and harmony only when each person has their own role. The same is true for the children. When two or more children are given the same role in the family, excess conflict is the result. Each child must have their own role in the family. When each accepts the proper role given by God, harmony and order will rule.

My favorite is this one:

http://www.catechism.cc/articles/marriage-sins.htm

2. Certain kinds of sexual acts are intrinsically evil and are therefore always immoral, regardless of circumstances, intention, or purpose.

Examples of intrinsically disordered sexual acts include: masturbation, homosexual acts, any sexual acts with more than two participants, oral sex, anal sex, manual sex, sexual acts involving objects or devices, etc.

These sexual acts can never be justified regardless of circumstances, intention, or purpose. These sexual acts are unnatural because they violate the natural law. The human person was designed by God so that sexual relations would consist in acts of genital-to-genital intercourse, open to life, between one man and one woman. Other kinds of sexual acts are contrary to this intention and purpose of God, which He designed within human nature.

If you know that it is an unnatural sexual act, then you know that it is wrong. You do not need know the circumstances, or the intention, or the end result. You can be certain that it is wrong simply because it is an unnatural sexual act. Unnatural sexual acts are always wrong, even if done with a good intention or purpose. Each and every unnatural sexual act is always objectively gravely immoral, even if it is preceded by, combined with, or followed by an act of natural marital sexual relations. These acts are immoral, even if such acts are between a man and a woman who are married to each another. Always means always. There are no exceptions....

[Sebastian Doyle]

1. Countdown to Opus Dei shills demanding this thread be locked

4....3....2....1.....:eyes:

[Nikki Stone1]

17. What Opus Dei shills?

And why wouldn't they get all the pedophile threads locked too?

[BolivarianHero]

31. I'm sure there are some here...

Plenty of room for Opus Dei whores on the New LieBlair table and plenty of idiots here who defend Labour over genuinely progressive British parties.

[Nikki Stone1]

33. That bad...

Opus Dei actually fits the OP.

[ZeitgeistObserver]

2. Same as what conservative protestants believe.

The church rules the world, and men rule women. Anyone who disagrees is to be dragged to the stake.

[Angry Dragon]

3. It is a shame

that these people can not think on their own. They do not believe in their god given brain.

[amborin]

4. off topic, but this is a funny video:

http://www.markfiore.com/political-cartoons/watch-vatican-pope-catholic-church-sex-abuse-animation-mark-fiore

[Nikki Stone1]

5. Thanks

Will check it out.

[Nikki Stone1]

13. Really great video there!

Thanks for posting it.

[CoffeeCat]

6. Not one scintilla of information...

...about how having sex with children is wrong.

They cover every other sexual behavior--including masturbation and blow jobs. And they
drive home the point that contraception is always a grave sin, as is an abortion, as is
homosexuality.

However, I see nothing about it being gravely wrong--or even wrong--to have sex with
children.

Unless I missed something...

[Nikki Stone1]

7. Interesting how this gets locked, locked and then moved again

Why is this so awful to talk about?

[DeSwiss]

25. K&R

[Nikki Stone1]

12. Not in this paragraph.

Let me see what else is on the page. One would think that sex with children would be at the top of the list.

[brendan120678]

26. Do Catholics in general frequently have sex with children?

It does state that, concerning Priests, "If they break their vow of chastity, they should be removed" in Point 3.

Also, while we know that there is a difference between homosexuality and pedophilia, the Catholic hierarchy blames the problem of abuse on homosexual priests, not pedophile priests. And Point 4 states, "Any bishops, priests, deacons, or religious who are found to be homosexual should be removed."

I think that pretty much covers it.

Whether they actually follow those points, however, is a different story.

[whathehell]

30. No more than "protestants in general"....See post # 2.

[PassingFair]

65. "Protestants in general" do NOT have prohibitions against birth control.

OR the "culpable pollution" of mutual masturbation within marriage.

Baptists can be weird, though.

[Walk away]

62. We will never know because the church has been hiding pedophiles...

for generations. The "scientific studies" never take into account that catholics have practically made protecting pedophile priests an art form!

[EFerrari]

8. I think it's a mistake to trap these threads. Anyway

in one of those very rare moments when someone says something difficult in a big family, my favorite uncle told my mom and another brother that he'd been raped by a Catholic priest during a a stay with the Marian Brothers in San Salvador.

He was about 7 or 8 and his behavior was out of control and since there was no transactional analysis in 1946, somehow he was placed with these people in the same way parents send their minor children to rehab facilities nowadays. At some point, my mom who was about 7 years older, begged whoever was in charge to release her brother back to the family. I'm still trying to find out, carefully, why she did that. Mom is 78 now.

He never said anything about it to anyone for more than twenty five years. And he and the rest of my aunts and uncles and my mother put all of us cousins in Catholic schools, before they knew and after they knew. My uncle's oldest son will be married in a Catholic Church next month.

I don't know what to do with that. The comfort and promise of the Church I grew up in is so shattered. And mostly, I'm really angry for that little boy who grew up to be my surrogate father and the kindest man I've ever met. For him, I'm furious.

[Nikki Stone1]

10. It's hard to react to true evil

The small stuff gets us angry, but the big evil leaves us speechless. I still don't know why this thread was moved out of GD. Every pedophile thread stays there, but when you put up the belief system that can lead to truly evil behavior, they have to take it down. I don't understand what they are scared of.

[EFerrari]

14. The thing is, it's the same reason we all just thought

it was one bad guy. We didn't put together that pedophiles swarm to professions that give them access to children AND that the Church had a global reach through every kind of service for children.

I can't think about this for more than a few minutes without feeling physically ill although I left the church in the 70s.

[Nikki Stone1]

18. When you put it that way...

it's even more vile. Global reach in services for children....

[Nikki Stone1]

19. You know, someone tried to rec this thread for me

and it can't be rec'd. That's really unfair too. What is DU afraid of here? This is not anything horrible.

[EFerrari]

22. You know, what we're dealing with here

as we can, is so much trauma.

[Ichingcarpenter]

9. I don't have to be a Republican to know how

republicans think and how their overt and hidden power structures work.


Did you know that the Vatican has 50 miles of books and historical papers in Rome that no one can look at dating back centuries.


Did you know that Ronald Reagan repealed a 1867 law to recognize the Vatican diplomatically
against his Secretary of State opposition within the first month of his inauguration


There is more to Angels and Demons than just a fiction novel

[Nikki Stone1]

11. 50 miles of historical books and papers?

Really?

Any information on them out there?

[Ichingcarpenter]

20. I misrepresented and confused the normal library and the secret Archives

The documents in the Secret Archives can be viewed but you need to know what specific document you seek.

The Vatican also has its own Secret Archives (their unashamed, actual name), which are as vast as they are old. Headed by a cardinal like the Vatican Library, another rumored storehouse of secrets, they partially open today to a few approved scholars who are let in only with specific purposes and with permission of the Pope and only for a short time.

It is the most mysterious institution in the papal city, for in its more than thirty miles of shelving are reputed to be the accumulated records of scandals, secrets, and revelations of the most shocking and explosive kind, blithely boxed and filed away with the insouciance born of centuries of silence and discretion




The history of the Vatican Secret Archives is a history of the upheavals of the Roman Catholic Church. Since the time of the apostles, Popes carefully preserved manuscripts concerning the exercise of their activities and these were kept in the scrinium Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae that followed the popes in their usual residences (The Vatican Secret Archives: The Past). The library was referred to as the “scrinium” which means “a convenient locked chest in which one could put important documents” (Sladen).Most of the these early documents have been lost due to the fragility of the documents and most often due to movements following conquests, wars and moves of the Popes to various residences, including Avignon. It is only from about the XII Century that the collection that exists today began to be accumulated.

[Ichingcarpenter]

23. More.......

The Archives and the Secret Archives
Required by Canon Law

Thomas Doyle, O.P., J.C.D.


1. The Code of Canon Law states a requirement that every diocese have an archive in which are kept the instruments and writings which pertain to the spiritual and temporal affairs of the diocese. (cc. 486-488). In other words, all of the files of the diocese, including personnel files, are to be kept.

2. Furthermore there is to be a secret archive in every diocese where more sensitive materials are kept (cc. 489-490). The canons specify very few specific items that must be kept in the secret archives. These include internal forum matrimonial dispensations (c. 1082), secret marriages (c. 1133), dispensations from impediments to orders (cc. 1047-1048), decrees of dismissal from religious life (c. 700) and documents relating to the loss of the clerical state by dismissal, invalidity of orders or dispensation (cc. 290-293). Also the records of canonical penal trials involving matters of morals are to be kept in the secret archive.

3. The canons do not give specific examples of documents that are to be kept in the ordinary archives. Also, there is no specific mention in the canons of personnel files, although it is commonly known that every diocese keeps a personnel file on all clerics who are either incardinated in the diocese or on loan to the diocese. Often these files contain a wide variety of information: biographical and academic information, records of assignments, letters sent about clerics (with both good and bad information), medical and psychiatric records.

4. Matters involving penal procedures are to be kept in the secret archive. When an allegation of an offense is made known to an ordinary, he is obliged by the law to conduct a preliminary investigation either personally or through another (c. 1717). Canon 1719 refers to the acts of the investigation which are to be kept in the secret archives. This canon presumes that a written record of the investigation is made and retained. Any investigations of priests alleged to have committed sexual assault on children or anyone else would fall into this category.

5. There are two fora or places for the exchange of information in Church law: the external forum concerning matters about which a record may be kept, and the internal forum, about matters of conscience about which no records are kept with the exception of decisions and decrees of the Apostolic Penitentiary in Rome. The most common place for the internal forum is sacramental confession. No records are ever kept of sacramental confessions. All matters for which there is a record, whether this is considered a confidential record or not, are matters for the external forum. Records of all canonical trials, penal procedures and investigations are matter of the external forum. Matters in the external forum are not subject to the seal of the confessional.

6. Judicial matters such as penal investigations are not matters of the internal forum by the very fact that a record of the investigation is mandated by the law. Similarly, the contents of a personnel file are not presumed to be matters of the internal forum.

7. The communications between religious superiors and their subjects and bishops and their clergy are not presumed to be internal forum matter unless it is a question of communications received in the course of sacramental confession or spiritual direction or a communication which is explicitly understood to be in the non-sacramental internal forum.

8. Documents contained in the general archives are not to be removed unless there is permission to do so from the bishop or from both the moderator of the curia and the chancellor. Then they are only to be removed for a short period of time. (canon 488)

9. All documents in the archives are to be retained and not destroyed. Certain documents from the secret archives are to be destroyed however. These are the documents relating to criminal cases, that is, cases involving the allegation of the commission of a canonical crime. The documents that are to be destroyed are those which pertain to a person accused of a crime who has died or documents pertaining to a criminal case, ten years after the case has been closed. Even when the documentation is destroyed, a summary of the cases is to be retained along with the sentence of the tribunal if the case was subjected to a complete canonical trial. (canon 489)

10. The above canons refer to the revised Code of Canon Law (1983). Similar legislation existed in the prior Code (1917) which went out of force upon the promulgation of the new Code.

— Thomas P. Doyle, O.P., J.C.D.
April 6, 2002

[Nikki Stone1]

34. Wow.

Thanks for all this. Nine hundred years of secret documents out there. Jeez!

[Ichingcarpenter]

35. Scholars have been fighting for years to see the WW2 papers

Let alone other historical paradigms


With only a select few chosen and restricted time under guard
academic progress in search of the truth has been slow.


I bet 2000 years of history would have to be Re-written when and if the library
becomes truly accessible

[Mithreal]

15. Don't know where you get your facts, but this one is just plain wrong.

"...any sexual acts with more than two participants..."

Everyone knows the Holy Spirit likes threesomes and is there when any two come together.

[Nikki Stone1]

16. Oh stop!

LOL!!!! :)

[Book Lover]

21. My favorite is actually this one:

"Women should not be on parish councils."

Oh really? Men who work to support and run their households as well have time to be conscientious members of the parish council? C'mon.

On the other hand, I just did a brief search for that website's author, and found an interesting tidbit:
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:s5LjwZl_A8oJ:www.medjugorje-online.com/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D7066+Ronald+L.+Conte+Jr.&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

especially this quote, "I have exchanged e-mails with the episcopal secretary of the Diocese where Ron Conte is located, and he assured me that Ron Conte´s writings have no authorization at all from his Bishop; in fact the opinion I received with this priest about Ron Conte's predictions and "eschatology writings" is quite negative."

[uberllama42]

24. "The Virgin Mary would never dress or act like a man."

It's fair to say the Virgin Mary never brushed her teeth, either. That's where that theory of conduct and personal hygiene will take you.

[brendan120678]

28. You may be incorrect...

If the Virgin Mary existed, I'm sure she had at least a partial concern with oral hygiene.

According to http://www.dentistry.com/articles/The_Toothbrush_An_Oral_Hygiene_History.aspx :

Toothpicks made of wood, thorn, metal, or porcupine quills have been around for at least three thousand years. "Examples have been found in Etruscan and Egyptian tombs; some of the metal ones were very ornate symbols of wealth and status," says George Millar of Cromwell, Connecticut, a toothbrush historian who began collecting brushes while developing his own model six years ago. His collection of almost 300 brushes includes versions from every part of the world; some date from the late 1800s.

"Oral hygiene was valued by Roman and Greek civilizations; even slaves had access to chew sticks made from the wood of trees and shrubs such as licorice, lucern, mallow root, myrtle, dog-wood, or the tender shoots of the peach," says Mr. Millar. "The end of each stick is unraveled by chewing, separating the fibers which scrape the teeth. These sticks still are used extensively in some parts of the world today."

[uberllama42]

29. If she existed, she did not have the benefit of living in Greek or Roman society

As I understand it, people in Judea did not have the same concern for hygiene that the Greeks and Romans did.

No doubt roots were available in that area, and of course it's possible that even pastoralists and nomads could have made use of them. But I think you'll agree that chewing on mallow root is not the same thing as brushing one's teeth. I stand by my initial comment.

[DeSwiss]

27. Also see: ''Documentary spotlights Catholic denial of paraplegic weddings''

Documentary spotlights Catholic denial of paraplegic weddings

KATU.com
Jun 23, 2008 at 7:14 PM PDT
By REBECCA MILLER - AP

NEW YORK - Flavia Fontes was talking on the phone when a headline in a small Brazilian newspaper caught her eye: A paraplegic man was forbidden to get married by the Roman Catholic Church because he was impotent. "I just had such a gut reaction," Fontes says. "I could not believe that the church would do this to somebody who probably had many obstacles in his life."

Even though Fontes, a Brazilian filmmaker living in New York, was already immersed in another project, she decided she needed to capture Hedir Antonio de Brito's story. The result is "Forbidden Wedding," which premieres on the Sundance Channel at 9 p.m. EST Monday. It is the third documentary Fontes has directed, filmed and produced, and it has appeared in almost 20 film festivals, capturing three awards.

De Brito was two weeks away from marrying Elzimar de Lourdes Serafim, a widow, in August 1996, when he received a shocking letter from the local bishop denying their application for a marriage certificate. According to canon law, any man or woman who is impotent and unable to have intercourse cannot get married.

De Brito wrote a letter to Pope John Paul II to appeal the bishop's decision, but didn't get a response.

http://www.katu.com/entertainment/3627531.html

[laughingliberal]

32. K & R nt

[rug]

36. It is what Ron Conte believes. Ron Conte is insane.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15400

[Book Lover]

37. Thank you, but

don't expect anyone here to listen.

Geez, I thought I was the angry irrational ex-Catholic atheist...

[trotsky]

38. And yet he's just as Catholic as you.

Perhaps moreso - depending on your stances on the issues of abortion, euthanasia, and birth control. Where do you stand on those issues, anyway?

[rug]

39. And he's the flip side of you.

At least half of that list reflects neither Catholic teachings or practices.

What you - and he - fail to realize is that Catholic moral teaching is not a mandate on the state to enforce it.

[trotsky]

40. I can't tell you how proud I am to be the opposite of a Catholic nutcase.

But I see you dodged answering the question. I expected as much.

[rug]

41. I didn't say you were his opposite.

[trotsky]

42. Nor did you answer the question. Batting .000

[rug]

43. I did not "dodge" your question, I ignored it.

One can waste only so many pixels responding to you.

[trotsky]

44. And yet you still do. You love me, you really love me!

[rug]

45. It's part of the Christian burden.

[trotsky]

46. Then why would you be bearing it?

[rug]

47. It's my penance.

[trotsky]

49. I would think a more appropriate way to pay for your sins...

would be to help rid your church of pedophiles. But if you think attacking liberal atheists who support the separation of church and state and want a secular nation is tackling the most clear and present danger to society, you go right ahead tilting at windmills. Maybe someone else will save your church.

[rug]

50. So you support the continued existence of the church?

As long as the corruption is removed?

That's refreshing.

And here all along I thought you were using child sexual abuse as a handy cudgel to advance your cause of eliminating this inherently corrupt organization built on fear and unicorns.

My deepest apologies.

[trotsky]

51. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the whole rotten institution go away.

But if it could be reformed to get rid of the rapists and their enablers/protectors, get the fuck OUT of people's reproductive and sexual decisions, and stop interfering with governmental policy around the world to bring it back to the Middle Ages, I see no problem with it continuing to exist.

So when are you going to start fixing your church instead of targeting atheists on a message board?

[rug]

52. I believe you targetted me.

Feel free to scroll back.

[trotsky]

53. Oh, I'm not talking about just this thread. n/t

[rug]

54. It must be this one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=245970&mesg_id=246011

[trotsky]

55. Naw, more like

this or this or this or this or this or this or even this.

All chances to speak out against your corrupt, hateful church or at least contribute something substantial to a discussion but you refuse.

[rug]

56. There can be nothing substantial in an OP named "We should have a "Renounce Catholicism" challenge"

[trotsky]

57. On the contrary, you had a golden opportunity to say something like...

"Here's why I think it's better to change the church from within..."

or

"I don't think this would accomplish its goals because..."

Opportunity wasted.

[Angry Dragon]

58. You two fight like you are married to each other

[trotsky]

61. He wishes he could quit me. n/t

[Angry Dragon]

59. dupe

[darkstar3]

60. He should change his name to that...

[Nikki Stone1]

48. .

.

[olegramps]

63. Number 11 about not allowing children to be treated as equals:

When Jesus was about 12 years of age he was "lost" during their visit to Jerusalem and he was found discussing religion with the elders who were reported to be amazed at his grasp of the religious issues. I guess he was kind of out of line.

[jemelanson]

64. Until and unless the Christian religion as a whole and each sect

of it acknowledges its Dark History it can never come into the light.

I suggest the reading of this book. "The Dark Side of Christian History" by Helen Ellerbe

[defendandprotect]

66. Nice post -- basically, what they are making "immoral" is any act which will not lead to

PROCREATION -- !!!