To Catholics, you are not the church

[edhopper]

You are the flock. The Church is the hierarchical organization consisting of the clergy.
If the pedophile story has shown us anything, the church sees protecting itself the highest priority.
It resembles a cult more than a large religion. It's members are usually taken in young, must disavow all outside attachments, have no family but the church, and never form outside relationships.
Unlike other religious institutions the clergy are not part of the community they serve, but are placed their by the hierarchy. The churchgoers really have no say in the actions of the church.

That's the way I see it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. the way I see it, they are not even The Church. They are A Church.

Plenty of more churches around.

[Lost4words]

2. thats the CC I grew up in and learned about years ago.

more people telling me how things were and how to think. For me the CC is as dirty as Citibank, if not more so.

[Lost4words]

3. Its their attitude that there is no where else to go , just like the DLC

[edhopper]

4. This is the point of my next thread.

Where does the church end and God start?

[Lost4words]

5. good question!

the church ends way short of God, I need no middlemen to reach God.

[YOY]

6. "a cult more than a large religion"...um all religious resemble cults more than they care to.

As a former Catholic nobody has shunned me. Are you Catholic or were you at one point in time?

[edhopper]

7. True

But I was comparing the priesthood to a cult, as opposed to the Catholic faithful.
I was describing the indoctrination into the priesthood, not church going. That is my point, the priests see themselves as the church, not the members.

No just an observer.

[patrice]

20. To the extent that anything is superstitious it is cultish.

Religions abound with superstitious behaviors.

There is nothing superstitious about the idea, manifested in the life of a man named Jesus, that we ARE (hard-wired for) good. Humans do have a tendency to care and to give and those tendencies should guide our lives and in so doing, suffering can be lessened and we stand a chance of making things better and better and better for more and more people. It's a very concrete set of beliefs.

All the bullshit that has been added to Christianity about "eternal life" and "heaven" is crap made-up to sell suckers and weaklings into giving money to people who do not do real work for it. **IF** thre are such things as "eternal life" and "heaven" they, very possibly, indeed, PROBABLY, are not what most Christians claim they are. And all of the mumbo-jumbo attached to these falsifications of Christian dogma is made-up bullshit that produces money.

[elocs]

8. Believers, the Body of Christ, are the Church-not the buildings, the organization, the hierarchy.

That is properly the "Church".

[edhopper]

11. The way I see it

the Organization, headed by the Vatican, is the Church. It dictates and controls all.
I don't see where the Vatican places it's priority on the church goers over the hierarchy.

[elocs]

12. You may see it that way, and that may be the Catholic view, but the Protestant view

is that the believers are the Church, not the buildings or the organization or the hierarchy.

[patrice]

19. That is not the Catholic view. Catholic means universal and that which is limited to

and by an authoritarian hierarchy is not universal.

We used to be taught that the Mystical Body of Christ, ALL of those living by the precepts embodied in the life of Jesus, are The Church, but then that WAS the '60s when I was taught that and the nuns were responding to figures like Dr. King and those amongst themselves who went to jail in protest against the Viet Nam War.

[edhopper]

23. Exactly

I am specifically talking about the Catholic Church. The closed, cultish society of it's clergy.
Not Christian belief. It seems the acts of the Vatican and specifically the present Pope have little to do with Jesus or Christianity.
I'm not sure if you're misreading what I mean, but I am NOT asking how Christians can stay believers in the face of this scandal.
I am wondering how believers can stay Catholic with what is happening.
I am saying the hierarchy does not consider you part of the church, THEY are the church, so protecting the church to the detriment of even the weakest, most vulnerable of the flock takes precedent.
Are these the men God wants to be your spiritual leaders?

[JerseygirlCT]

29. Yes. It's semantics, but I think still an important distinction

the organization, the hierarchy - all of that is secondary.

"The church" is properly found wherever 2 or more gather in his name, as the song says.

[edhopper]

32. In theory

What I am saying is that to me it seems that the hierarchy acts as if the Church is the clergy, to be protected and secured against all other concerns, including the well being of the churchgoers.

[JerseygirlCT]

34. No disagreement there -

I do think the hierarchy has put what *they* see as the well-being of the institution above that of the people who really make up the church. Their every instinct has been protective of their hierarchy, not one of the children and of other victims.

[trotsky]

9. So if the churchgoers who disapprove of the hierarchy left...

and stopped supporting the church with their time and money, what would happen?

[edhopper]

10. Good question

I believe Martin Luther was asked the same thing.
I guess believers would find other places to worship and a corrupt organization would disassemble.
Or a radical revamping of the entire church structure.

[skepticscott]

13. Well, the Reformation didn't result

in the disassembling of the Catholic Church, unfortunately, and it is still as corrupt as it can get away with...though in this day and age, that is probably less than it used to be. And also unfortunately, a lot of the religious organizations on the Protestant side haven't been much better as far as bigotry and oppression of women, gays and blacks.

[patrice]

18. They wouldn't stop believing and THAT'S what makes them church.

Not rituals.
Not titles.
Not buildings.
Not organization.
Not names/lables.
Not vestments.
Not altars.
Not music. . . .



A way of living which the Catholic priesthood has betrayed.

[trotsky]

22. So take yourselves out, and do those things elsewhere.

Church forced to change.

Really tired of excuses from liberal Catholics.

[DeSwiss]

30. "Really tired of excuses from liberal Catholics."

[edhopper]

24. to be clear

this is about Catholicism, not Christianity.

[rug]

14. That's the way Jack Chick sees it too.

You're both wrong.

[iris27]

35. Good grief.

I think anyone whose hackles weren't raised in defense of the Catholic heirarchy would read that as "this is about Catholicism (in specific), not Christianity (at large)". Not at all the same thing as Jack Chick.

[rhett o rick]

15. The parishioners are responsible for enabling this horrendous behavior. nm

[DeSwiss]

16. "You are the flock."

- Also known as "SHEEPLE"

K&R

[Nothing Without Hope]

17. That's also the reason why they are STILL forbidden to marry or have children.

That would compete with their "loyalty" to the hierarchy.

[patrice]

21. And who, exactly, are you to tell anyone else who or what they are?

Especially if you aren't "Catholic".

Paternalistic much? You're just like those priests you apparently hate.

[edhopper]

25. Unlike someone who must bend to the

dictates of a hierarchical power. I am free to openly state my thinking about an organization I see as criminally corrupt. Further, I can use reason to discern what is the true nature of said organization.
Now when I use the phrase "That's the way i see it", it obviously is my opinion. So I'm telling any one who they are, but rather telling them who I think they are.
Not being a Catholic doesn't enter into it. No more than asking how a gay person could stay a Republican.
Challenging a person's belief structure is far from paternalism.

[Beartracks]

26. Definitely a Protestant - maybe Baptist? -- definition.

>"It's members are usually taken in young, must disavow all outside attachments, have no family but the church, and never form outside relationships."

:rofl:

Please find me the reference book that explains the Church this way! Where's the part about where they worship false idols and practice cannibalism?



----------

[edhopper]

27. You are so far off about my background.

This is the way I see the Catholic clergy, not the way they would define themselves, obviously.

[Beartracks]

28. OK. Was taking a shot in the dark. But...

... I have Baptist family who hold that idea about Catholics -- at least the part I added about cannibalism and false idols.

Out of curiosity, what's the basis of your opinion about disavowing outside attachments and never forming outside relationships?


--------------

[edhopper]

33. I was making a comparison to a cult

where members are told to not live with their family and have no attachments outside the cult.
It's not apples and apples, but priest are secluded in a seminary, told they cannot form a family for themselves and if there is a choice between a family member and the church, the choice is always the church.
I was saying while I don't consider Catholicism a cult, the clergy certainly has many of those aspects.
And my main point is i believe they see the clergy as "The Church" and not the faithful.
This explains their heinous behavior in the current scandal.

[DeSwiss]

31. Try Luke 14:26-27

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.