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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:29 PM
Original message
The Pagan roots of Christianity and questions regarding them.
Edited on Fri Jul-22-05 02:20 PM by Heaven and Earth
Many times I have seen the statement that many of the stories of Christianity, as well as other elements, have been borrowed from Pagan religions. I would like to see this discussed further, but perhaps with a slightly different focus.

Specifically I am hoping to here from people who have said this before (but chime in anyway if you haven't!). I would like to ask what differences you see between said pagan religions and Christianity, if any, and whether those differences are enough to claim Christianity is its own religion?

I would also like to ask if you think those stories they have in common were consciously borrowed from other groups, or whether they arose separately. Either way, does it indicate that these stories say something important about what might be called the "human condition"? Or is there a different message to be had?

Ultimately, I am concerned with what a person who says that regards as the undertone of their statement, if there is one. Does it mean that Christianity is no more valid than any other religion, having similar stories? Does it mean that someone should not believe in it or call themselves specifically Christian, because they are really pagan? Some other message? None at all?

My hope is that we can have a fruitful and sane discussion. Feel free to refer to religion as myth, as far as I am concerned. I do not object to the label, but others might.

Thank you to all of those who have looked in and responded!
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. one thing I've noticed:
A god, Zeus, had sex with a Vestal Virgin to produce Romulus, the founder of the city of Rome.

The holy spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary to produce Jesus, the founder of the kingdom of heaven.
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Precisely an example of what I am talking about!
If you check out the rest of my post, I had some questions regarding the commonalities of stories like that.
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flakey_foont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Zeus
had sex with a lot of virgins....Io, Europa, Leto

quite an old horndog!
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. In a similar vein
I've heard it said that the Greeks of the first millenia had no problem accepting the idea of a 'son of God' who was part-man/part-god since they already had the example of Hercules (who's father was Zeus, and was therefore part-man/part-god).

If you want to dig a bit further back, you can see what some consider to be the 'original version' of the Ten Commandments in the Papyrus of Ani (ie., the Egyptian Book of the Dead). Spell/Bardo 125 lists a series of vows one must make in order to progress along one's path to 'heaven'. Most of the prohibitions of the Ten Commandments are found in this list (in a format where the 'dead person' must state they didn't do them). Interesting when you consider that Moses was supposedly schooled in Egyptian theology, and would certainly have been aware of the material in the Papyrus of Ani. It's actually much more strict than the Ten Commandments, suggesting a refinement of the list over time.

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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, for starters, it's not similar stories. It's the same story...
Christmas trees are just one tiny example of many Christian traditions that began in paganism. As Christianity spread, it incorporated the native pagan religions. This is also why there are different ways of practicing Christianity throughout the world -- And by that, I don't mean Presbyterian, Luthern, Catholic, etc.

Look at Roman Catholicism. How it's practiced in the United States is vastly different then how it's practiced in Mexico, just over the border. That is because of the Native-American traditions of Mexicans that were incorporated into Catholicism. The pagan traditions that are practised on Christian holidays are the exact same thing, except it's European pagans whose traditions were assimilated, not Mexicans.

Another good example is Haiti, where Christian practicers of voodoo have used saints to supplant the traditional hougans.
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Ok, so you see no difference between the theology of Christianity
Edited on Fri Jul-22-05 01:35 PM by Heaven and Earth
and paganism? They are the same religion?
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Of course not.
Theologically, they couldn't be more different! Paganism, as a general rule, doesn't revere the Judeo-Christian god, and certainly doesn't see Jesus Christ as his son. That's a basic principle of any Christian faith. So theologically, the two are vastly different. Christianity just assimilated some pagan traditions -- it makes it easier to convert the pagans when they can keep performing many of the same rites.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. start with
TAMMUZ.......

and note it's center of origin......
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ironman202 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. where to start...
roughly contemporaneously with the crucifiction/resurrection, Tibetan bBuddhists wrote of a Bodhisatva (rough equiv. of a saint) named Issu who came from the fertile crescent and taught in their monasteries for decades.

Noah and the ark was directly cribbed from the Epic of Gilgamesh, a work 2000 years oolder than the earliest known biblical version. There is an even earlier Summerian version of the flood story.

Christianity itself in terms of the structure and order of good vs. evil/god vs. the devil was cribbed from the persian Zoroastrian religion with god being Uhura Mazda and i've forgotten the devils name. Zoroastrianism was the first major monotheistic religion.

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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Ok, so there was conscious borrowing?
The stories did not arise separately?
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ironman202 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. no way they independently rose
no the liklihood of two flood stories with an ark and animals in pairs and sending a dove to find land and bringing back an olive branch?

among others.....
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Is there any difference between Christianity and paganism?
In my first post there were other questions, and I'd be much obliged if someone might take a stab at them in addition to listing the commonalities.
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ironman202 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. well
I am not aware of paganism embracing ritual cannibalism the way the catholic church does.

Mostly, the early church took what it found useful from paganism and left the rest.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. My opinions on your questions...
Is paganism equally valid to Christianity?
Well, yes. Or -- perhaps importantly -- equally invalid, depending on your point of view.

Since pagans don't necessarily worship Jesus as the Son of God, it would be wrong to try to directly equate Christians with pagans.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. i think
even the american indian tribes have a flood story.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Apparently ancient Egyptians had the same concepts about Horus
A virgin birth. Heavenly Mother, earthly Father. Gifts from the Magi. Death, then resurrection. No record of him between age 12 to 30. Etc, etc.
These were all ancient Egyptian stories about Horus.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Horus
Mithras, Attis, Osiris, Dionysis: same basic story, told in different places and different times.
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. For different reasons and having different meanings attached?
Edited on Fri Jul-22-05 02:21 PM by Heaven and Earth
Or the same, in your opinion?
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Basically the same story
Edited on Fri Jul-22-05 02:33 PM by MountainLaurel
Deity son/consort of the goddess is comes to earth as a mortal to save his people from destruction, a task for which he must lose his life. Basically, it's a mirror of the seasons: birth, fertility, death, rebirth.

The main difference is that most of the older stories were told in the context of a polytheistic, matriarchal religion where as Judaism and Christianity are patriarchal monotheism.
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rg302200 Donating Member (495 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. The Devil in Zoroastrianism is
Angra Mainyu! He was a source of evil and darkness. As stated a man has the freedom to choose between the virtue and the vice. There is a concept of the body and soul. After death, the soul crosses a bridge (Chinvato Paretu), where the good deeds are weighed against the bad deeds. Either the person falls into a hell or crosses the bridge to reach the heaven. The savior or sayoshant plays its part on the day of judgment. Eventually, everyone is expected to be purified and the occupants of the hell will also be released.

As you can see this text seems to be full of Christian concepts. Also, in my studies of Zoroastrianism I came across a text that stated a man was born in a small farm house to a virgin woman and that the local leaders called the council of three came to give thanks to the miracle. The man was the son of Uhura Mazda and would be the one to succed him as god. Sound familiar?

Now for the life of me I can't find that text ANYWHERE. I know I read it, I know I saw it, so it is real. To me that just screams copyright violations because it looks like Christains stole ALL of Zorostrianism's ideas.!
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Geoff R. Casavant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. Whoa!
Whole libraries have been devoted to this topic, I expect this thread will barely scratch the surface before we move on to other things.

Here's my scratch.

Christianity is semi-unique, for want of a better term. It is a direct descendant of Judaism, which is unique in that it posits a single deity rather than a pantheon.

As for Chrisitianity borrowing liberally from paganism, just as an illustration try to find the word "Easter" in the Bible. Bear in mind that Easter and the resurrection are the central message of Christianity. Without them, Christianity is nothing more than a different flavor of Judaism (many of the topics discussed in the Biblical passages where the Pharisees are described as trying to "trap" Jesus are topics actually found in the Talmud; if you look only at the conversation, it is actually a reasoned debate of the Torah, not a trap).

So, no Easter in the Bible, but there was a Pagan ritual in England to celebrate the Pagan goddess Eostre. This celebration took place in the spring near the vernal equinox and was intended as a fertility rite. The notions of rebirth were simply absorbed by the Christians, to the point where the original rituals are now lost.
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Thank you for your take. I suppose you are right.
Edited on Fri Jul-22-05 02:26 PM by Heaven and Earth
I did not realize that about Jesus and his discussions with the pharisees. They must have been very surprised when instead of settling in for a four hour long debate (or whatever), they got very little and then nothing but denunciation.

As I said, people on this board say it all the time, but I haven't seen it fully explored. As though the meaning of the connection between Christianity and its predecessors were supposed to be obvious to all.

Well, it isn't to me, and I wanted clarification.
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lachattefolle Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. I believe Zoroastrianism has the true claim to having been the
first religion to posit monotheism.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/zoroastr.htm

From my limited reading on the subject, Judaism received the ideas of heaven and hell, angels, a Savior (Sashoyant), and the final judgement from Zoroastrianism, via their captivity in Babylon during the reign of Cyrus.

I'm an atheist and have no dog in this fight/discussion.
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Geoff R. Casavant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I expect you are right
A lot of what we Christians call the Old Testament was not compiled and edited until after the Babylonian captivity, but there are some documents (such as the Book of Jeremiah) that predate the captivity, and they speak of a single God.

However, it is more than likely that the earliest Hebrew forerunners brought monotheism with them when they arrived in Canaan from what would later be known as Babylon.

You are right about heaven/hell/angels being absorbed during the Captivity, at least if the scholarship I'm reading is correct.
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lachattefolle Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. There are some websites devoted to Zoroastrianism that I've
explored but I'm by no means an expert. For example, I had no idea Jeremiah predated the captivity.
I kind of lean towards the theory that says humanity and civilization is far older than what we know. Many religions speak of different "ages", each one worse than the last. I'm pretty sure, in my own mind, that something predated Zoroastrianism, if we only knew.
The way things are going, I think we're in the age of mud.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
25. What is unique about Yehvehistic or "Abrahamic" religions is their...
implacable antagonism to women and nature, a theme that flickers through nearly all the Old Testament and carries over both into the New Testament and the Qur'an. I don't have time today to cite all the references -- there are dozens, perhaps actually hundreds of them -- but they all start with Genesis: the damnation of all womankind as the original source of all human suffering, and the mandate to conquer and destroy nature. "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and conquer it" (Genesis 1:28). "Yes, it is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman;"(1 Corinthians 7:1).

Contrast this with the views implicit in Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching, the great scripture of Taoism and Zen:

"The great DAO is overflowing
it can be to the left and the right
All things owe their existence to it
And it does not refuse them."
(I Dao:34)

"The world has a beginning
That is the Mother of the World
Whosoever finds the mother
in order to know the sons;
whosoever knows the sons
and returns to the mother:
he will not be in danger all his life long."
(II De:52)

Or contrast Yehvehistic hostility to nature and woman with the vast love of all being exhibited by the pagan British poet Taliesin (whether from 600 BC, 600 AD or 1200 AD we know not, because there were at least three poets named Taliesin):

"There is nothing in which I have not been."
(Cad Goddeu: line 24)

Though it cannot be confirmed -- thanks to the Inquisition, the surviving texts are badly garbled -- there is a strong suspicion the works of the oldest Taliesin originally functioned as Druidical scripture, possibly even prophecy (a role restored to then by the Pagans of today).

The point is that when one begins reading the literature of other religions, what we know as "the Bible" becomes breathtakingly hostile and mean -- and that's not even considering the periodic genocidal binges of the Old Testament Hebrews.

But the issue here is not just the hostility toward woman and nature embodied in Yehvehistic religion. It is also the hostility toward life itself demonstrated by a god who periodically destroys all those who disagree with him -- a hostility modernly reflected both in thermonuclear weaponry (the macrocosm) and suicide bombers (the microcosm): psychologically equivalent expressions of that original mandate to conquer or else.

In this context I cannot help but think about the incident in the Vietnam War in which American troops blasted a village to rubble and then told the press, "We had to destroy the village to save it (from the Communists)." I wonder if it is prophetic: "We had to destroy the world to save it from the unbelievers." Whether delivered by nuke or suicide bomber, it seems the message from Yehvehistic cultures is always identical.


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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Thank you for your response.
Edited on Fri Jul-22-05 03:42 PM by Heaven and Earth
Why are the "Yehvehistic" religions like that? (Note: I am not endorsing that point of view, simply inviting further explanation)

If they borrowed so much from paganism (as many have said), was paganism also like that? or did something change, and if so, what, and why?

Do you believe that what you have said is the whole and complete message of said religions?
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. it's a backlash against what came before
Paganism predates, of course, the "yehvehistic" religions. Many pagan spirituality practices revere females (the life-givers). Judaism, Christianity, and Islam can be described as a backlash against that female reverence.

Just one theory.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. The alleged borrowing from paganism was for political purposes...
(not theological ones) -- such as the confusing of holidays in Celtic Europe or the confusing of American Aboriginals by deliberately mistranslating the exquisitely poetic truth of "Great Holy Mystery" into the hierarchal/patriarchal "Great Spirit" -- and once the resultant cultural erosion was complete, savagely suppressing any doctrinal variance. Examples include the Albigensian Crusade in Southern France (c. 1200?; I've forgotten the exact dates) and the methodical destruction of the Celtic Church, which was the one genuine hybrid of Christianity and paganism. Celtic Church beliefs apparently included Mary as the most recent vessel of the Great Goddess (aka the Holy Spirit defined as female); Jesus as the most recent incarnation of the Dying God (aka Blessed Bran, Arturos etc.), "the once and future king"; Midnight Mass said in the stone circles on the moon's High Holidays: the full moons closest to February 1, May 1, August 1, and Hallowe'en (the real first days of spring, summer, fall and winter respectively); Sunrise Mass said in the stone circles on the solar feasts: the vernal and autumnal equinoxes and the summer and winter solstices, the four mid-season (Mid-spring, Mid-summer etc.) days. The Pope was so terrified by this he gave William the Bastard of Normandy full title to all the British Isles including Ireland to suppress the Celtic "heresy": the "Irish Troubles" actually date from 1066. There is persistent Scots folklore the rebellions of Wallace and the Bruce (c. 1306) were as much motivated by religious unrest as political ferment: note the excommunication of all Scots. Also, when Robert the Bruce sent his cousin Jamie Douglas aka "the Black Douglas" to burn and harry a swath through all England, he sent his brother Edward the Bruce to Ireland: by some accounts the last High King ever crowned at (pagan) Tara. Yet thanks to the Inquisition we know so little; so much of infinite value has been forever lost...

Christianity was not a borrower but a thief: the original "Indian Giver" (the very worst perversion of meaning in the entire English language, for it was the Christian whites who promised plenty but then robbed the indigenous People of everything, not the other way around as the vicious phrase implies).

To return to your specific question, what is it in Yehvehistic religion that prompts such things? I believe ultimately it is the profound theological insecurity that comes from the notion of a single lifetime judged by an ultimately unforgiving god. The mandate to conquer (the meaning of which includes the notion of imposing total obedience, total destruction) is merely a logical acting-out of the divine mandate: if "man" is made in "the image of god" as the Bible claims, then surely "man" has the right to behave as god himself behaved -- even at Sodom and Gomorrah (or toward all humans save Noah and his family as disclosed in the Flood story) -- particularly since part of the divine mandate is the forcible "conversion" of all the earth's peoples. Conquest itself is of course not unique to Yehvehistic theology: it is far older than that, (though the ecofeminist/feminist assertion that the mandate to conquer is a psychological expression singular to patriarchy is based on the ultimate truth that in the long-term sense nothing but harm can come from the Biblically ordained attempt by the sons to sell their mothers and sisters into slavery in return for immortality -- which is precisely the Biblical bargain). The archaeological evidence fully supports the feminist argument: while patriarchy (defined as male supremacy derived from the supremacy of male god{s}) has been around for only about 5000 years, artifacts from before that time all suggest a global ethos -- its variances only in local modes of expression -- in which the central figure of all belief systems was the Goddess: "the" because beyond the curtain of local language and local symbol she is everywhere the same -- the embodiment of Nature and the trinity mirrored by the moon: youth, maturity, death/resurrection. And the fact this evidence is so widespread and of such long duration suggests a truly inconceivable 25,000 or more years of relative human peace. (What ended it? We don't know: my best guess is some huge cataclysm that enabled the rebels to argue the Goddess was an unfit mother.)

Please don't imagine I am suggesting the patriarchal/polytheistic Romans who slew an estimated 90,000 Britons in the suppression of Queen Boudicca's rebellion were any more merciful than the avowedly secular Nazis at Babi Yar (whose belt-buckles nevertheless proclaimed "God is with us") or the Christian Americans at Mai Lai. Indeed they were not. What is different is not the divine mandate to conquest but rather the ultimate fulfillment of it. The Romans had the gladius, the pilum and Onager -- the finest small-arms and artillery of the ancient world. The Nazis had the Mauser, the sturmgewehr and the dread Krupp 88. The Americans had M-16s, M-60s and napalm. But only the Germans (in the nation where Christianity first became Protestant) and the Americans (where Protestantism became a global economic empire of a magnitude and economic oppressiveness hitherto unimagined) -- only the Germans and the Americans sought to use the atom, the basic building block of nature, as a weapon -- the ultimate perversion of the source of life into the source of extinction. The ultimate patriarchal/Yehvehistic alchemical triumph: the transmogrification of the ultimate embryo into the ultimate abortion -- Mother Nature at long last totally overthrown, reduced to slavery, condemned to mere whoredom. Once again, the mandate to conquest as spelled out in Genesis. Hence my argument that thermonuclear weaponry is the ultimate manifestation not just of patriarchy but of Yehvehistic theology in general: "I am the lord thy bomb and thou shalt have no other bombs before me." Alpha and Omega. The Charles Manson paradox: love defined as murder. The H-bomb as macrocosm; the suicide bomber as microcosm: "we had to destroy life to save it."

I believe that the good in people raised in Yehvehistic religion (and in patriarchy in general) survives in spite of the theology -- not because of it. I believe most humans do the very best they can: that but for the pathological exceptions (which in patriarchy seem ever more abundant), most humans are at least as considerate as wolves when it comes to kindness to their packmates. But then, like many others of my generation, I have experienced first-hand the extra-patriarchal (and therefore painfully short-lived) structures of the old Counterculture, where amid vast folly and foible I nevertheless saw the genuine human promise of the so-called "revolution in consciousness" -- the revolution that brought about not only the renaissance of feminism and the birth of environmentalism but the resurrection of the Goddess. Nevertheless I am not advocating something so ridiculous as an attempted return to the ancient matriarchy -- I think we have outgrown it, and in any case it would be impossible, for if Arlo Guthrie will allow me to borrow one of his favorite phrases, every time a tune "comes 'round on the guitar" it is at least subtly altered by its passage. What we need is not regression but progress: the advance into the Next Phase -- whatever it is that comes after patriarchy (patriarchy I believe even now is in its death throes: hence the present war) -- a new paradigm of which we can already see glimpses, even on this very thread.

For those who wonder at the sources of my analysis, here is a link to a similar discussion on another thread, complete with a rudimentary bibliography:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x23737#23845

(This is written in great haste without my customary careful editing: I have to be somewhere else too soon, but wanted to respond in detail to your questions before the evening grew old. In any case, thank you for asking. And please forgive me if my text is sometimes muddled.)
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. This quite thorough, and I thank you for that
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 01:08 AM by Heaven and Earth
It's a totally different way of looking at things, than the one I am used to, and different perspectives are always nice.

That said, you are right in saying that impulses to dominate and conquer come from insecurity. Everyone has them, not just followers of these religions, because everyone is weak, finite, and mortal. It's human nature. Attempts to hide this weakness can cause great suffering and unspeakable horrors in the name of pride, or else a person attempts to drown their sorrows in gluttony, drunkenness, drug abuse, sensuality, and so forth. It is all ultimately futile, because everything they attempt is also finite and relative, and causes others to suffer besides. Absolutes are not possible for mere mortals, and the sooner that is accepted, the sooner the insecurity can be dealt with.

The thirst for power is another expression of this, and again all people are susceptible to it. If a person gains power, they will be tempted all the more so to go wrong, and they will affect many more people. Again, no one is exempt, not Christians, not Jews, not Muslims, not Hindus or Buddhists, nor pagans either. Atheists and agnostics are the same way too. It is no surprise that people of the book in power become corrupt, and because their pride is spiritual pride, their sin is that of idolatry, and many suffer. It would be the same if any other religion gained temporal power. The Bible clearly says that one of the temptations of Satan was rule over the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus refused that temptation, and so should his followers refuse the temptation to rule in His name. Instead, They have frequently thought they were God, which is precisely what followers of God must NOT do. So you are wrong in saying that the three religions of the book teach because man is made in the image of God, he has a license to carry out judgement as God. "Judge not lest ye be judged" and all that. They account this a terrible sin and a violation of the First Commandment "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other Gods before me."

The domination of evil over good in human history is a direct consequence of this sin. However, where there is divine judgment, there is also divine mercy and forgiveness. Which is exemplified in the Prophets, Jesus, and Mohammed. Now, if a person didn't believe what those people had to say, then yes, God as portrayed in the Bible might appear to be a cruel God of hate and destruction. However, with the divine forgiveness, people are free to stop worrying about themselves, give their insecurity a rest, and have compassion for others. Loving the Lord enables one to love their neighbor as themself. It in no way stops anyone from sinning, but it does call people to a higher standard of living, and sometimes people live up to it, and many times not. Which is why Jesus said that people should forgive seventy times seven.

If you want to read the whole story, The Nature and Destiny of Man by Reinhold Niebuhr is my primary source for this interpretation. Its two books, a total of 600 pages, but perhaps you would also like an alternate perspective (on the other hand, maybe you have already read it). You probably knew this, but Niebuhr was no liberal Christian theologian, but he was a liberal democrat involved with Roosevelt's New Deal.

If I have said anything to give offense, I humbly apologize. These are sensitive matters, and its not always clear to me what will hurt others and what will not.

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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. No offense taken, and thank you for your forthrightness. It is always...
interesting to discuss these matters, even in disagreement. While I profoundly respect the goodness done by some Christians -- Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker people especially come to mind, as does Albert Schweitzer -- I have never been able to force myself into the doctrinal mold of Christianity: not just too many years living in genuine country (where the truths reflected in Nature are universally pagan), but too many years coping with Fundamentalist threats in the South and Pacific Northwest, and thus too strong an instinct that Yehveh is part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Plus too many years of city living too, where the taste of the spiritual dead zone created by Judaeo/Christian civilization is unbearably bitter. (Indeed perhaps my strongest argument against Yehvehistic religion is my conviction that the ultimate subconscious purpose of the Bomb {like the ultimate purpose of the suicide bomber} is to obstruct evolution -- to forever terrify the world into conversion and belief.) Beyond that, I will also admit to a deep suspicion toward organized religion in general. When humanity gave up the individual spirit quest as part the universal puberty rite, it did itself the worst possible disservice: a disservice from which it is at least arguable that much of what passes for civilization is a dreadful mistake. But I too intend no personal offense -- and thanks again for hearing me out.
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Astarho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
31. The Pagan elements
in Christianity are quite obvious, and have been lifted from every culture they've come in contact with. A few examples:

-The Christmas tree and most Christmas traditions are lifted from Northern European solstice celebrations. Santa Clause would seem to incorporate elements of Odin

-The Madonna and Child motif would seem to come from Isis and Horus (the Isis Mystery religion was popular about the same time as early Christianity)

-The Resurrected God motif can be seen in Osiris and Dionysus.

-In Mesoamerica, Christ has been incorporated into a lot of indegionous myths.

The influence of Zoroastrianism on Christianity (via Judaism) has been considerable, the whole dualistic way of thinking, as well as concepts of Judgement of the wicked and the righteous, the Savior (Saoshyant).
To read the Zoroastrian texts go to http://www.avesta.org/avesta.html.

As for the question of validity, no religion is more valid than another. That is a question that's up to the individual to answer. Does knowing the pagan influences change the "love thy enemy" philosphy of Christ?
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
33. For a conquering religion like Christianity
Edited on Fri Jul-29-05 02:12 PM by catbert836
it's very hard for it to keep the original teachings, dogma, holidays, etc. When you have a religion that goes beyond the intended scope (Christianity was originally intended for Jews only), you have to include a lot of local traditions in order to get the locals to convert. For example:
-December 25 was the birthday of the Persian god Mithras and was taken up by Christianity so people would stop celebrating Saturnalia, or the Winter Solstice.
-The Christian God looks very much like the Hellenist god Zeus/Jupiter.
-The virgin birth story was probably also taken from the legend of Mithras.
-The legend of the Savior/Messiah was started by the Persian prophet Zarathrusa about a thousand years before Christ.

Just to name a few. I'm sure there are many more.
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