Kentucky Senate Votes To Allow Public School Bible Classes

[moobu2]

Kentucky's state Senate has voted overwhelmingly to allow Bible classes to be taught in public schools statewide.
The bill that would effectively return the Bible to classrooms across Kentucky cleared the Senate on a 37-1 vote and now goes to the House for consideration.
Democratic state Sen. Kathy Stein, of Lexington, cast the only dissenting vote. She questioned the constitutionality of the measure sponsored by Sen. David Boswell, also a Democrat.
Under the proposal, Bible courses would be offered as electives, meaning students could decide whether to take them.
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Make it stop!!

[Zoeisright]

1. Kentucky: The Buckle in the Bigot Belt.

n/t

[havocmom]

2. somebody needs to sue for right to have Quran Classes

And Druid Studies

[Webster Green]

6. And the Flying Spaghetti Monster..

As I remember it, the FSM theory was first presented in response to a similar situation in another state.

[Birthmark]

3. I'm not seeing the problem.

It's an elective course.

[sakabatou]

4. Same here

It's an elective. However, it is being taught in public school. Hmmm...

[On the Road]

8. It's Also Become a Huge Area of Ignorance

for the majority of the country. It just needs to be taught historically, not devotionally.

[shraby]

9. Elective to start, but how long will it stay that way before

it becomes a requirement? The camel has it's nose under the tent, won't be long before it's eating your dinner.

[RKP5637]

10. Bit by bit, they want to turn this nation into a theocracy. How about an elective

course for atheism!

[Birthmark]

11. Constitutionally, it can't become required.

If such an attempt is made...well, it will be slapped down in the Courts.

[Goblinmonger]

13. Constituionally, it can't be taught.

Lemon test. Read up on it. This fails the first three prongs EPICALLY. It also fails the third one on a pretty grand scale, too.

[Birthmark]

14. You're free to interpret Lemon that way

I completely disagree with you.

[laconicsax]

17. How do you interpret it then?

The law or action must pass the following three tests:
1. It must have a secular purpose.
2. It must neither advance nor inhibit religion.
3. It must not create excessive entanglement with religion.

How would making a Bible course mandatory pass those three points?

[Goblinmonger]

26. How about you explain yourself.

It's not like the Lemon test is confusing or anything.

Let's take a look-see (remember, you must get a yes for ALL THREE for it to be constitutional:

1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
Big Fat Nope. It is there to teach about religion.

The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
Big Stinky Nope. It advances religion over non-religion and advances one religion over another.

The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
I would say nope but it doesn't matter since the first two make this unconstitutional.

Now, your challenge. Explain to me how this legislation meets the Lemon test without resorting to one-liners of "we see it differently."

[Igel]

29. How's this?

"Boswell said he believes the legislation is constitutional because the Bible will be taught from a literary perspective, not a religious one. He said what sets this legislation apart is that it proposes teaching, not preaching, the Bible." Which is the description given in a link in the OP.

If so, then

1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
It is there to teach about a religious text that is important for understanding various aspects of US and European culture, but not to teach the religious text. It's possible to teach about Greek gods without teaching that Greek gods are to be worshiped. In fact, if you intend to take in many Renaissance or Baroque cultural artefacts--literary, musical, plastic arts--you pretty much need to be taught about Greek religion. Since it's not a topic of current cultural and political wrangling, only a few fundies object.

2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
It's unclear that having kids read Genesis advances or inhibits religion--we read it in college, right up there with Dante and Homer. Yet we came away neither pouring libations to Athena and Zeus nor in fear of stepping on heads frozen into the path in hell. Religion's not its goal, and it's unlikely to be its effect. When in Arabic class you read portions of the Qur'aan, it's not advancing or inhibiting religion. It's learning about a text that's important to most Arabic cultures. If somebody's converted to Islam because they've never read the Qur'aan and it "speaks to them," eh. "Primary" isn't applicable.

3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
As long as the government is not teaching a religion as something to be followed and no organized religious organization is involved, I'm not sure how there's much entanglement at all--much less "excessive."

My only complaint is that the students that would most benefit from a class are unlikely to take it. For example, in grad school I observed fellow students taking a class on a medieval Slavic text in various recensions. Most of them had mocked the one evangelical Christian in the class, literally to tears. They were firmly secular--and yet the text was a saint's life, written by monks for other monks to read. They were without a clue. Yet the evangelical Xian, who had made it a point of reading not just her Bible but the Slavonic translation of the Bible, was spotting allusions and meanings--and documenting them--that the professor in charge of the class missed. Many of them weren't insignificant. Meanwhile, the proud secularists tended to be quiet or "deconstruct" passages that they didn't understand; in many cases, they didn't understand the language itself. They completely lost it when the professor suggesting coauthoring a paper on some of the themes, since almost everybody who'd worked on that profoundly religious text was strictly secular and had scant understanding of Orthodoxy or the Slavonic Bible.

So those who would probably take such a Bible class probably already read or have read a Bible; those who would read English (or foreign) literatures, look at European art from 1300 to 1900, listen to music from 1400 to 1900, or try to understand much of history as those involved in it understood it, are probably not going to have read their Bibles, will rely entirely on what others have said they should know to understand something, and won't be bothered to actually learn a central text in Western Civ for themselves.

[Goblinmonger]

37. Well

1. that's BS and you know it. Here is a snippet from Raw Story "In praising the legislation, state Sen. Elizabeth Tori told the bill's sponsors that "an angel was sent down on your shoulders" prompting “you to put this bill together,” as quoted at the Courier-Journal"

2. So why not have a class on the history of the great life of Jesus. And apply all your arguments.

3. Your somewhat interesting story doesn't really get to the point of entanglement.

[varkam]

15. Agreed.

I don't think that it matters so much that the course is an elective. While that's appealing from an intuitive standpoint, as you point out, the Establishment and Supremacy Clauses of the federal constitution as hashed out in Lemon v. Kurtzman kind of make any attempt at doing this sort of thing in the public schools DOA.

I have to wonder why legislators will vote for a bill that is unconstitutional on its face. The only thing I can think of is base pandering. Well, either that or they know less than I about the federal constitution (a scary thought, indeed).

[Goblinmonger]

12. See, this is the problem with a creeping theocracy.

This has NO PLACE in a public school. NONE. As an English teacher, I cannot (and should not) put a copy of the ten commandments on the wall. If I were teaching social studies I could if it were in the context of history with other historically significant sets of ancient laws. That is a pretty clear SCOTUS ruling.

The school is teaching the Bible. Not as a part of a literature class where other religious texts are taught (as is normal in a world literature course) but as a course on the Bible. That is advancing one religion over another and advancing religion over non-religion. The fact that people are not going to be pissed about this only makes me feel worse. The theocracy continues to creep along until BAM there's no turning back. The fact that progressive liberals on DU aren't shocked at this is a pretty good sign that the theocracy is creeping.

[Birthmark]

16. How can the Bible be adavancing one religion over another?

The first two-thirds or so are about the people of one religion, and the final third is about a different religion. Merely studying the Bible advances neither.

[laconicsax]

18. As a whole it's one religion's holy book.

The general view of Christianity is that the Old Testament is relevant to Christianity--that it is prophecy and the New Testament is fulfilment of that prophecy.

[Goblinmonger]

27. Religions of Abraham over not so

That was easy.

[laconicsax]

21. It should be taught in lit. classes.

So much literature is based on, or references the Bible that not teaching the parts referenced leaves a gap in understanding. Plus, nothing leads to a loss of faith quite like having to read some of that stuff.

[Goblinmonger]

28. I agree

we have a lot of discussion of the bible in my lit classes. The story of Solomon when I teach Huck Finn. Discussion of Christ symbolism when I teach Old Man and the Sea.

[charlie]

22. Kentucky doesn't creep

They mosh. Here are some statutes already on the books. This one is from 1942:
(All statute links are to PDF files)

158.170 Bible to be read.
The teacher in charge shall read or cause to be read a portion of the Bible daily in every
classroom or session room of the common schools of the state in the presence of the
pupils therein assembled, but no child shall be required to read the Bible against the wish
of his parents or guardian.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/158-00/170.PDF

These are more recent vintage. You can tell by the "not to be construed as endorsement or practice" handwaving:

158.175 Recitation of Lord's prayer and pledge of allegiance -- Instruction in
proper respect for and display of the flag -- Observation of moment of silence
or reflection.
(1) As a continuation of the policy of teaching our country's history and as an
affirmation of the freedom of religion in this country, the board of education of a
local school district may authorize the recitation of the traditional Lord's prayer and
the pledge of allegiance to the flag in public elementary schools. Pupil participation
in the recitation of the prayer and pledge of allegiance shall be voluntary. Pupils
shall be reminded that this Lord's prayer is the prayer our pilgrim fathers recited
when they came to this country in their search for freedom. Pupils shall be informed
that these exercises are not meant to influence an individual's personal religious
beliefs in any manner. The exercises shall be conducted so that pupils shall learn of
our great freedoms, including the freedom of religion symbolized by the recitation
of the Lord's prayer...

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/158-00/175.PDF

158.177 Teaching of evolution -- Right to include Bible theory of creation.
(1) In any public school instruction concerning the theories of the creation of man and
the earth, and which involves the theory thereon commonly known as evolution, any
teacher so desiring may include as a portion of such instruction the theory of
creation as presented in the Bible, and may accordingly read such passages in the
Bible as are deemed necessary for instruction on the theory of creation, thereby
affording students a choice as to which such theory to accept.
(2) For those students receiving such instruction, and who accept the Bible theory of
creation, credit shall be permitted on any examination in which adherence to such
theory is propounded, provided the response is correct according to the instruction
received.
(3) No teacher in a public school may stress any particular denominational religious
belief.
(4) This section is not to be construed as being adverse to any decision which has been
rendered by any court of competent jurisdiction.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/158-00/177.PDF

158.178 Ten Commandments to be displayed.
(1) It shall be the duty of the Superintendent of Public Instruction, provided sufficient
funds are available as provided in subsection (3) of this section, to ensure that a
durable, permanent copy of the Ten Commandments shall be displayed on a wall in
each public elementary and secondary school classroom in the Commonwealth. The
copy shall be sixteen (16) inches wide by twenty (20) inches high.
(2) In small print below the last commandment shall appear a notation concerning the
purpose of the display, as follows: "The secular application of the Ten
Commandments is clearly seen in its adoption as the fundamental legal code of
Western Civilization and the Common Law of the United States."
(3) The copies required by this section shall be purchased with funds made available
through voluntary contributions made to the State Treasurer for the purposes of this
section.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/158-00/178.PDF

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/158-00/CHAPTER.HTM

[haikugal]

25. Really?

You really want religion taught at school...I don't want my tax payer dollars used to support what should be taught at church, or mosque, etc. This is just a way of thumbing their noses at 'libruls' and the fed.

[PVnRT]

43. So, we can cut music, science, industrial arts and art classes

But somehow we have money to add a bible class? How do you license teachers to teach it?

Getting it in like this is merely step one. The next step is to claim that the evil liberal atheists are being "bigots" by not allowing the bible teacher to proselytize during the class.

[BrklynLiberal]

5. They re-elected Bunning....so this is not surprisig.

[Bitwit1234]

20. I was going to say that. Any state that elects such an ahole as

Bunning would do anything.

[msongs]

7. rape, torture, genocide, bestiality, incest, witchcraft - coming to a school near you nt

[laconicsax]

19. *public*

Those things are par for the course at some private schools, albeit in varying degrees.

[FLyellowdog]

23. Our school district purchased "In God We Trust" plaques

and required that all classrooms display them. Still there the last time I looked.

[olegramps]

24. I would think parents would object to having the children subjected to:

Hundreds of stories about the slaughter of innocent men, women and children as directed by God. Stories of lust, incest and even about a king that is held in high esteem even though he had a man murdered to obtain his wife. Only God knows how many wifes the child of that marriage, Solomon, had as he lived in abject lavishness while others starved. I don't see very much in the Old Testament that should be held of as an example to be followed for kids unless you are grooming a new Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler or Stalin.

[humblebum]

30. Um? Weren't Mao, Pol Pot, and Stalin atheists? And Hitler

was a big fan of Nietzsche as I recall. So how were they groomed by the Bible?

[Goblinmonger]

31. If you need to ask how Staliln and Hitler

were groomed by the Bible, you are really entering this discussion ill prepared.

I'm just sayin'.

[humblebum]

32. So prepare me. nt

[Goblinmonger]

33. wow

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stalin+%22christian+upbringing%22">Try this

Think you can handle the Hitler one?

Are you seriously telling me that you have no knowledge of the Christian upbringing of Hitler and Stalin?

[humblebum]

34. Well versed in their histories, but I'm still trying to figure out how

Pol Pot and Mao fit this picture.

[darkstar3]

35. They don't*,

just like they don't fit into the one YOU so often like to paint.

Sucks ass when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it?

*I don't think olegramps was trying to say that all of these people were Christians. Rather, I think he was trying to say that exposing young children to all of the horror stories contained in the Bible could lead to enough emotional damage to create another of these dictators.

[Goblinmonger]

36. That's what you are going for?

That you were 50% wrong at this point? Stalin was raised Christian and so was Hitler, but put all your hopes on Mao & Pol Pot. And do you ever deny the main point of the post that the Bible is full of violence or were you too busy catching red herrings?

[humblebum]

38. Atheist history is, by far, the most violent in all of recorded history.

Bar none.

[darkstar3]

39. Your arguments have been repeatedly shown as fallacious and your sources as irrelevant.

Find another topic.

[Goblinmonger]

40. Well

If you say so.


No. Wait. Got anything to back that up or you just pulling things out of your ass?

[humblebum]

41. Uh? French revolution, Russian revolution, Chinese revolution,

South Asia, Eastern Europe - roughly 130 million.

[Goblinmonger]

42. You're serious, aren't you.

You are blaming the French revolution on atheists? And the Russian Revolution? Silly me, I thought they were the result of an elite monarchy that went unchecked until people had enough. Guess I now know it was the godless at fault. Kinda thought the Chinese revolution was economic and class oriented, too. What do I know?

What do you mean by Eastern Europe and South Asia?

Where do the holocausts, pogroms, inquisitions, crusades fit into your little calculus?

[moobu2]

44. The Oklahoma Senate OKs Bill to Allow Bible Course in Schools

OKLAHOMA CITY -- The Oklahoma Senate has overwhelmingly approved a proposal to allow public schools in Oklahoma to offer an elective course on the Bible beginning next school year.

The Senate voted 38-4 Thursday in favor of the bill by Democratic state Sen. Tom Ivester of Elk City. The measure now heads to the House.

It allows the course to be taught to students in grades nine through 12.

The bill says the curriculum and course materials for the course will come from the National Council on Bible Curriculum on Public Schools.

Sen. Tom Adelson opposed the bill and says he's concerned that language requiring the course materials and curriculum to be vetted by the state Attorney General was removed from it.


< link >

[LAGC]

45. Oh boy, is this the new trend?

Starts in the Bible Belt and slowly spreads outward until its infected the rest of the country...

[moobu2]

46. The effort to have Bible classes in public schools is being funded

by right-wing Christians (surprise) - The main group pushing this is the “National Council On Bible Curriculum In Public Schools”. Here's what they say

To date, our Bible curriculum has been voted into 532 school districts (2,035 high schools) in 38 states. Over 360,000 students have already taken this course nationwide, on the high school campus, during school hours, for credit.


A program is underway to serve the public through educational efforts concerning a First Amendment right and religious freedom issue. This is to bring a state certified Bible course (elective) into the public high schools nationwide.

The curriculum for the program shows a concern to convey the content of the Bible as compared to literature and history. The program is concerned with education rather than indoctrination of students. The central approach of the class is simply to study the Bible as a foundation document of society, and that approach is altogether appropriate in a comprehensive program of secular education.


The world is watching to see if we will be motivated to impact our culture, to deal with the moral crises in our society, and reclaim our families and children.

Please help us to restore our religious and civil liberties in this nation.

LinK

Look at the list of board of directors and advisors.

Mr. and Mrs. Chuck Norris
Mr. Mike Johnson, Attorney, Alliance Defense Fund
Mr. Steve Crampton, Attorney, Liberty Counsel
Dr. D. James Kennedy, Author, President, Coral Ridge Ministries
Hon. Holly Coors (Heritage Foundation Trustee - recently passed away)
Mrs. Joyce Meyer (Joyce Meyer Ministries)
Dr. Alveda King (Martin l. King's sister and very very anti-gay)
Dr. Ted Baehr, Chairman, The Christian Film & Television Commission

and some other kooks...

[LAGC]

48. Scary.

I've seen some of Joyce Meyer's books... "inspiration" wrapped in ugly dogma.

Public schools are no place for that business.

[iris27]

47. Oh, HELL no. I know how courses like these work.

Even took one myself at a private-but-secular college when I was planning on becoming a minister. I wanted to learn about the Bible from a "modern-critical perspective" as was claimed in the course description. What I got was a tuition-paid hour of "praise Jesus" Bible study 3 times a week, led by a Presbyterian pastor.

The only thing modern or critical about the class was the textbook, which was completely ignored both in class and on the tests. I actually spoke to my advisor about it, because I knew if there were any non-Christians in the class they'd feel totally alienated...and was told I was the first person who'd ever complained! Not surprising as I recognized most of the other people who participated in "class discussion" from our school Campus Crusade chapter. Ironic that I, who was aiming for an M.Div, was the only person who asked questions like "What outside-of-scripture evidence points to Matthew the disciple being the author of the gospel Matthew?"

This was in New York with sophmore/junior level college students. In Kentucky, with high schoolers...I don't even want to imagine.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

49. They should be teaching a religion survey course.

of ALL major religions. And some minor ones too, like Bahai and Zoroastrianism and Shinto.

I think that in the states that have passed laws allowing bible study electives in high school only a very few students ever signed up.

Kids get tired of all Jebus all the time. I got tired of it decades ago, myself, and I was not raised as a rightwing fundy.