catholic church and when life starts

[bobmorr1]

Years go my cousin lost her baby. Not sure what month she was in, probably 3-6 months. She was a practicing catholic. Her and her husband tried to have a mass said for the baby. The church refused. They said it wasn't baptised and therefore no mass could be said for it. She hasn't gone back since. About 5 years. If the church is so set on when life begins, why couldn't a mass have been said?

[HopeHoops]

1. Life begins when you leave the Catholic church.

The wealthiest company in the world wouldn't even keep two small churches open in Chicago because they weren't "covering their expenses". I'm sure Jesus would be proud.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

2. Beat me to it...

A friend of mine used to say that the two largest religions in the world were "Former Catholic" and "Sorta Jewish."

[HopeHoops]

3. LOL! "Sorta Jewish" - THAT's funny!

Most of the former Catholics I have known use "Recovering Catholic" to describe their condition.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

4. That shouldn't be the case.

http://www.richmonddiocese.org/worship/liturgies/children.htm

As far as I know, it's common place to have a memorial mass for a child, even before he/she was baptized. If the decision was made at the local level (i.e. a parish priest), you might want to speak to someone at the governing diocese--they may be able to set things straight.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

5. Updated: Does your cousin live in the Chicago area like you?

http://policy.archchicago.org/policies/bk4num700.pdf

Procedures
a) The Order of Christian Funerals provides a complete vigil service, funeral
Mass with final commendation and a rite of committal for the funeral of a
child. (OCF, #247-249, 319-336) Various texts for a baptized child or a child
who died before baptism make the rites fully adaptable to a given situation.
The eloquent prayers and words of comfort of the rites for children offer
special consolation in this extraordinary situation of bewilderment and pain.

[AngryOldDem]

6. That was the thing that created the rift between the Church and me.

I had my first miscarriage at around 7 weeks. When I asked my priest if any kind of memorial Mass was possible, he had NO answer, and literally could not get out of my hospital room fast enough. He didn't even do any kind of blessing. The next year I had another miscarriage -- a bad one at 13 weeks -- and we didn't bother anybody about it. What was the point? We got through it ourselves. But we felt we needed to recognize our babies in some way, so we decided to have a Mass intention said for them. That was not nearly the same as a memorial Mass -- a monetary donation was involved. Even then, a part of me even felt that we were skirting (if not breaking) the "rules" -- but we felt our babies' short lives deserved some honor, even if the Church -- consciously or not -- felt otherwise.

A few weeks later, I heard of a group that was forming because of the nonsupport many people felt from the Church, and a local church agreed (after some cajoling) to host a memorial Mass for miscarried, stillborn, and aborted babies around All Souls' Day. The turnout for that Mass was astounding -- just as many, if not more, than you see at a weekend Mass. People were there who had lost babies 20, 30, and even 50 years prior, who still had not found closure. It screamed that there IS a need for pastoral counseling for those who deal with prenatal and neonatal loss, and it is just as much a life issue as standing outside an abortion clinic. As far as I know, in most places that message still has not been heard.

The discomfort and total lack of support and care we received from those we thought we could count on in a time of sadness and grief -- and by extension from an institution that so reveres life in all its forms -- was and still is extremely hurtful and disappointing, and to some degree, hypocritical.

The Church in a lot of ways is very much like the rest of society when it comes to infant loss -- it doesn't know quite how to respond. And if that isn't bad enough, it compounds the suffering of parents by ALWAYS implicating that since the baby was not baptized, there is no guarantee that he or she is with God. That is the attitude your cousin most likely encountered. It's couched as "these babies are left to the mercy of God; we really don't know what happens to their souls" -- in other words, God becomes less than a benevolent and loving being. That only serves to deepen the hurt, pain, and guilt of some, especially those who view miscarriage or stillbirth as some kind of punishment and who unfairly blame themselves for something that was more than likely totally out of their humanly control.

I understand your cousin's feelings completely, and I hope that over time she has found some kind of peace. It took me a good, long while, and as I said, I've never really been able to view the Church in the same light since.

(Note: I know there are some here who discount the notions of grace, God, Heaven, and mercy. But for many people -- and I was one at one time -- those ideas are the ONLY things that help them get through the trauma of infant loss because that is the only comfort they have.)

ON EDIT: Wording.

[cbdo2007]

7. You are right in that the Catholic church is very much like the rest of society concerning

this. After my wife's miscarriage we just stopped attending church altogether because it wasn't comforting to us. It was "God's plan" or something I guess, but we did find a great local group (in the Kansas City area) that we met with every few weeks who helped us to process everything and talk about our loss and they had memorial services regularly and stuff for the people in the group. It was nice and though it was held at a local Evangelical church it wasn't overly religious at all.

[Laura902]

8. Because you can make any rules you want when your self-deluded n/t

[moobu2]

9. If they could find some way to exploit the situation

for profit or power, they'd come up with some very elaborate magical incantations for it.

[cbdo2007]

10. They could easily exploit this! By having Mass for a child who dies before it's born,

they give more validity to their argument that it's a person and should receive the same rights and rituals as borned humans. Instead they're actually helping the pro-choice argument that unborn kids aren't the exact same thing as borned kids. That's how I sees it anyways.

[MorningGlow]

11. Not exactly sure (my Catholicism is a little rusty)

but I believe it has nothing to do with when life begins and everything to do with the fact that a mass can't be said for a person who hasn't received the sacraments. In other words, in the Church's view, the baby hadn't been baptized (the first sacrament that removes original sin and allows a person to receive the rest of the sacraments throughout life, including a funeral mass) and therefore was still carrying original sin and because of that hadn't had a chance to become a true member of the Church...?

In my personal experience, I do know that my uber-Catholic aunt practically spontaneously combusted when I refused to have my son baptized. She couldn't comprehend that I don't believe in the concept of original sin, so there's nothing to "baptize away" (plus I refused to be a hypocrite and stand there in the church promising to raise my child in the Catholic faith--that was NOT going to happen). My mother managed to get her to keep quiet upon pain of death, so my aunt never did bother me about it, but I'm sure it's eating away at her to this day (my son is 6).

Anyway, perhaps a practicing Catholic could weigh in on your thread to confirm or correct my speculation, Bobmorr1.