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We should have an "Atheists for Jesus" day!

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:55 PM
Original message
We should have an "Atheists for Jesus" day!
Why explain it myself when my main man Rich can do a better job:

Atheists for Jesus

By Richard Dawkins



The argument, like a good recipe, needs to be built up gradually, with the ingredients mustered in advance. First, the apparently oxymoronic title. In a society where the majority of theists are at least nominally Christian, the two words are treated as near synonyms. Bertrand Russell's famous advocacy of atheism was called Why I am not a Christian rather than, as it probably should have been, Why I am not a theist. All Christians are theists, it seems to go without saying.

Of course Jesus was a theist, but that is the least interesting thing about him. He was a theist because, in his time, everybody was. Atheism was not an option, even for so radical a thinker as Jesus. What was interesting and remarkable about Jesus was not the obvious fact that he believed in the God of his Jewish religion, but that he rebelled against many aspects of Yahweh's vengeful nastiness. At least in the teachings that are attributed to him, he publicly advocated niceness and was one of the first to do so. To those steeped in the Sharia-like cruelties of Leviticus and Deuteronomy; to those brought up to fear the vindictive, Ayatollah-like God of Abraham and Isaac, a charismatic young preacher who advocated generous forgiveness must have seemed radical to the point of subversion. No wonder they nailed him.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

My second ingredient is another paradox, which begins in my own field of Darwinism. Natural selection is a deeply nasty process. Darwin himself remarked,

"What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering low and horridly cruel works of nature."

It was not just the facts of nature, among which he singled out the larvae of Ichneumon wasps and their habit of feeding within the bodies of live caterpillars. The theory of natural selection itself seems calculated to foster selfishness at the expense of public good, violence, callous indifference to suffering, short term greed at the expense of long term foresight. If scientific theories could vote, evolution would surely vote Republican. My paradox comes from the un-Darwinian fact, which any of us can observe in our own circle of acquaintances, that so many individual people are kind, generous, helpful, compassionate, nice: the sort of people of whom we say, "She's a real saint." Or, "He's a true Good Samaritan."

We all know people (is it significant that the ones I can think of are mostly women?) to whom we can sincerely say: "If only everybody were like you, the world's troubles would melt away." The milk of human kindness is only a metaphor but, na�ve as it sounds, I contemplate some of my friends and I feel like trying to bottle whatever it is that makes them so kind, so selfless, so apparently un-Darwinian.

Darwinians can come up with explanations for human niceness: generalisations of the well-established models of kin selection and reciprocal altruism, the stocks-in-trade of the 'selfish gene' theory, which sets out to explain how altruism and cooperation among individual animals can stem from self-interest at the genetic level. But the sort of super niceness I am talking about in humans goes too far. It is a misfiring, even a perversion of the Darwinian take on niceness. Well, if that's a perversion, it's the kind of perversion we need to encourage and spread.

Human super niceness is a perversion of Darwinism because, in a wild population, it would be removed by natural selection. It is also, although I haven't the space to go into detail about this third ingredient of my recipe, an apparent perversion of the sort of rational choice theory by which economists explain human behaviour as calculated to maximize self-interest.

Let's put it even more bluntly. From a rational choice point of view, or from a Darwinian point of view, human super niceness is just plain dumb. And yes, it is the kind of dumb that should be encouraged - which is the purpose of my article. How can we do it? How shall we take the minority of super nice humans that we all know, and increase their number, perhaps until they even become a majority in the population? Could super niceness be induced to spread like an epidemic? Could super niceness be packaged in such a form that it passes down the generations in swelling traditions of longitudinal propagation?

Well, do we know of any comparable examples, where stupid ideas have been known to spread like an epidemic? Yes, by God! Religion. Religious beliefs are irrational. Religious beliefs are dumb and dumber: super dumb. Religion drives otherwise sensible people into celibate monasteries, or crashing into New York skyscrapers. Religion motivates people to whip their own backs, to set fire to themselves or their daughters, to denounce their own grandmothers as witches, or, in less extreme cases, simply to stand or kneel, week after week, through ceremonies of stupefying boredom. If people can be infected with such self-harming stupidity, infecting them with niceness should be childsplay.

<snip>.....


http://richarddawkins.net/articles/20
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. I like Jesus.
I don't care for many of his nasty, mean, rapacious, greedy "followers," who have managed to have perverted the teachings of a radically good man into a self-serving philosophy that purports to reward the very behavior Jesus preached against.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yep - Jesus is a great character
Completely changed the direction of Western Fiction too....

Of course Jesus is the Esperanto of Man-Gods....
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Dawkins is interesting, but I think he misses the point.
He says: "Religion drives otherwise sensible people into celibate monasteries, or crashing into New York skyscrapers. Religion motivates people to whip their own backs, to set fire to themselves or their daughters, to denounce their own grandmothers as witches, or, in less extreme cases, simply to stand or kneel, week after week, through ceremonies of stupefying boredom. If people can be infected with such self-harming stupidity, infecting them with niceness should be childsplay."

Actually, I would say not. Because actually, I think it's easier to goad people into harming others (or themselves, if their self-esteem is poor enough) using religion as the motivator/excuse than it is to "infect them with niceness" or persuade them to exhibit incredible goodness and self-sacrifice using religion as their motivator/justification. And of course, that's for a very simple reason: the religion isn't really that big a factor in what drives the act (except as a person's faith, or lack thereof, reflects, or doesn't reflect, their basic decency).

Some people just learn and internalize from the cradle that being a good person, even when it's hard, matters. Others don't.

For many years, people have wondered what motivated the non-Jews who risked, and sometimes sacrificed, their own lives to help hide Jews, and help them escape, during the Holocaust. How could they be so brave, so self-sacrificing, in the face of such evil, when they would have been much safer just turning their backs and saying it wasn't their problem? Well, some of them said they had to do it because it was the "Christian" thing to do. Others said they never thought twice about it; it was just the right thing to do and they wouldn't have considered anything else. In fact, many of them have said they couldn't imagine NOT doing what they could to help.

I think those people get down to the nub of the mystery. Some people use religion as the explanation for why they do good; others use it as the justification for why they do evil; but closer to the truth, they would do good or do evil with or without religion as an explanation. Their religion doesn't "make" them good or "make" them evil, and neither will a lack of religion. Because what drives their actions is something else. Maybe you could call it a deep empathy, the ability to put themselves in the place of others, combined with a deep-seated need to help others to be at least as safe and happy in this world as they themselves are. People who don't have it, the "I got mine and to hell with you" crowd, will at best turn their backs on others' pain and at worst actually justify themselves in causing it (assuming they aren't just sociopaths who actually enjoy giving others misery). They may use or not use religion as the story behind why they do what they do, but it doesn't really matter, because religion is not the real reason. Religion is the story some people tell, and others don't, to explain their moral actions. That's all.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. Jesus sounds like he was a really great guy.
Even though I have doubts that he had any special supernatural powers, I'll never talk smack about Jesus.

If he were alive today, he's out-compassion anybody else. He'd be a champion for progressives.
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. Jesus was the first really great comic book character.
Without him, we might not have the other "saviors of mankind" archetypes like Superman and Batman.
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Laura902 Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. if he existed, we'd be buddies as long as he didnt want me to give away my stuff
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Whoops!

"Missed it by that much....."


- Welcome to DU
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. True, and then there's the which Jesus question....
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. ... Bloch said, "Only an atheist can be a good Christian," to which Moltmann replied, "But
only a Christian can be a good atheist" ... http://www.darkfiber.com/atheisms/atheisms/miguezb.html
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
10. Atheism in Christianity by Ernst Bloch
... In the long unavailable Atheism in Christianity, Ernst Bloch provides an original historical examination of Christianity in an attempt to find its social roots. He pursues a detailed study of the Bible and its long standing fascination for “ordinary and unimportant” people. In the Bible stories’ promise of utopia and their antagonism to authority, Bloch locates the appeal to the oppressed—the desire “to transcend without transcendence” ... At the Bible's heart he finds a heretical core and claims, paradoxically, that a good Christian must necessarily be an atheist ... http://www.versobooks.com/books/ab/b-titles/bloch_ernst_atheism_and_christianity.shtml
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. podcast discussion of Bloch's book
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. The Gospel of Christian Atheism by Thomas J.J. Altizer (1966)
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