Are many US churches just "jerk factories?"

[JanMichael]

http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2009/08/bait-and-switch-of-contemporary.html

The trouble with contemporary Christianity is that a massive bait and switch is going on. "Christianity" has essentially become a mechanism for allowing millions of people to replace being a decent human being with something else, an endorsed "spiritual" substitute. For example, rather than being a decent human being the following is a list of some commonly acceptable substitutes:

Going to church
Worship
Praying
Spiritual disciplines (e.g., fasting)
Bible study
Voting Republican
Going on spiritual retreats
Reading religious books
Arguing with evolutionists
Sending your child to a Christian school or providing education at home
Using religious language
Avoiding R-rated movies
Not reading Harry Potter.

[appamado amata padam]

1. Depends.

Sure, some are jerks, but some are well-meaning people who have been duped. Many were experiencing some crisis in their lives, and were susceptible to exploitation.

[Rude Dog]

9. True dat.

Just ask my mother - pushed into hyper-religion by my sister after mom had a breakdown thanks to her asshole husband.

Don't worry, all is well again - my sister abandoned that shithole church, then mom did so after abandoning the asshole husband.

[appamado amata padam]

11. Glad to hear it turned out OK.

There is sort of a "cult" near where I live, but it seems pretty legit/harmless. Most of the members are friendly and OK, except a few who seem like washed-out zombies, who want nothing to do with the "outside world."

[appamado amata padam]

12. Glad to hear it turned out OK.

There is sort of a "cult" near where I live, but it seems pretty legit/harmless. Most of the members are friendly and OK, except a few who seem like washed-out zombies, who want nothing to do with the "outside world."

[appamado amata padam]

2. Depends.

Sure, some are jerks, but some are well-meaning people who have been duped. Many were experiencing some crisis in their lives, and were susceptible to exploitation.

[gmoney]

3. Well, they can do all those things as far as I care...

It's when they try to tell me and the rest of the world that we should ALL be acting like them and conforming to their bizarre beliefs does it get to be a problem...

[jimshoes]

4. A lot of them just go to get their

"Permission To Act Like A Douchebag To Other People" card punched for the coming week. Some of them, I suspect, actually go for a spiritual refreshening.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

5. By "jerk factories" I thought you were going to reference Ted Haggard and his massage extravaganzas

Good post, though. I think you raise a good point about whether these mega churches and the businessmen who run them are bringing people together in brotherhood and sisterhood or driving wedges between people with a culture war.

[cliffordu]

6. "beat" me to it......

:rofl:

[rrneck]

7. The idea is to get them to pay for it.

They're selling them something they've already got.

[LuvNewcastle]

10. +1

[Fumesucker]

8. My daughter is a photographer and I help her from time to time..

We shot a wedding at a brand new megachurch a month or two ago and then continued the shoot at the reception.

The reception ended with a drunken melee to which the cops were called, the groom nearly threw someone through a plate glass window, a couple of guys ended up with busted heads and the bride was in hysterical tears.

[YOY]

16. Wow. What was the fight over?

I'd have loved to see it.

[Fumesucker]

22. It was someone in the wedding party made a comment that either the groom

Or best man didn't like..

Typical drunks, who really knows why they go off?

These things happen so quickly, even if you are right there watching it you can't always tell what happened.

Edited for speling.

[Fire1]

13. None of the things on your list are substitutes for being a

decent human being. If anything being a decent person is the RESULT of most things on the list.
At least, that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work (with the exception of voting repuke). Otherwise, that's a pretty broad brush you're using.

[JanMichael]

15. I didn't write this, the list isn't mine

did you see the link?

[Fire1]

18. My bad. I see it, now, but the author is broad brushing and

my response remains the same.

[JanMichael]

23. I posted this without comment

on purpose. I wanted to see what other people thought.

[madamesilverspurs]

14. Some are.

But you're going to have jerkish behavior anywhere that humans gather. There are Christians and there are christians; in my experience it's the latter that cause the problems.

[YOY]

17. That's not mainstream Christianity.

That's the nutbags who want to be the mainstream but are just hooting jackholes.

They also consider only themselves Christians but have nothing to do with Christ so much as being the last crutch for the desperate providing a needed "safe" fix.

Go into a mainstream Lutheran, Presbyterian, or Catholic church...you won't find most of that jazz.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

19. Being a decent human being has NOTHING to do with that list.

Unfortunately, most people in our majority-Christian society believe that the church-going behaviors are necessary to being a decent person.

[Fire1]

21. I am certainly one of "those" people. n/t

[RagAss]

20. People are lost.

[CAG]

24. Generally, the christian right followers have been told that as long as they

hate homosexuals, hate abortion choice (except when it comes upon their own teenage daughter), and vote republican, then they are good christians. It allows them free range to think whatever else they want to think and still maintain their often false hope that they are somehow following Christ's teachings.

[cherokeeprogressive]

25. No.

But hey, thanks for playing!

[Duke Newcombe]

26. So, in order to be a "decent human being" one must...

Watch R-rated movies
Read Harry Potter
Not use religious language (???)

I'm not sure this line of reasoning was thought through completely by the author. I further wonder what the objective is of posting it.

[rd_kent]

30. I didnt see that anywhere at all.

No where did it say any of that.

[FreedomFlower]

27. Don't paint all Christians with the same brush

I hate how within the Democratic community the word "Christian" has come to mean the above list. I do about half of that list, but the other half I vehemently oppose. Why do people assume that if I do some, I'm all of the above. Isn't that just as bad as conservatives assuming all liberals are all hippie pot smoking, law breaking bleeding hearts.

[Fumesucker]

28. Welcome to DU..

Unfortunately, from the perspective of the non-religious most mainstream Christians have allowed the wackaloony fundies to define Christianity in America.

I think the great majority of us realize that not all Christians are hateful bigots but so often it is the hateful bigots who are by far the loudest and most visible.

Until the non-hateful, non-bigoted Christians step up to the plate and take their religion back from the fundies you are going to have this perception problem.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

32. All we have in my part of the world are the loony Christians.

They invite me to their church and look STUNNED when I refuse to go and say I am not interested.

I am white. I don't have any white friends because they all have their social life at their church and they hate Obama.

I have nobody to talk to except one family of black people that my family has known for decades.

I can't talk about the things I care about (art and classical music and culture) because it goes over their heads. I wasted my breath.

[JerseygirlCT]

35. You make it sound so easy

When your practice doesn't include loudly patting yourself on the back and sending out press releases, it's difficult. And frankly, I don't buy the be like them to overcome them idea.

They are what they are. And those of us who disagree will continue to do so - but not to the exclusion of simply doing as we do.

There was a song we used to sing in church as I was growing up: They'll Know We Are Christian By Our Love. IOW, walk the walk, and don't worry so much about the talk.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. As I've said many times, the fundies don't consider us Christians

:shrug:

[rd_kent]

31. We arent?

And I hate how the xtians have allowed a small minority to corrupt and take over their religion. If the "good" xtians, as you claim to be, dont oppose what xtianity has become, then you are part of the problem.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. As I've said before, the fundies do NOT listen to us

Their leaders warn them against us. I've seen a local TV preacher warn against MY parish.

Furthermore, the media like outrageous statements. So if the self-ordained high school dropout Rev'run Fundie says that gays are going to hell, Noah left the dinosaurs behind when he packed the ark, and Eve gave Adam a Granny Smith apple, the media love that. Rev'run Fundie gets front page coverage. If The Reverend Faith Hopencharity, ordained by a mainstream denomination after three years of graduate study in a seminary, says that homosexuality is a natural human variation not a sin and that God gave us brains to distinguish science from myth, that shows up on page 24 of the B section of the paper.

An anti-choice rally gets mainstream coverage. A rally of liberal religious meeting before lobbying legislators against cuts in health care for the poor--their signs aren't outrageous, so their footage gets left on the cutting roomfloor.

I've seen it happen again and again.

I've come to the conclusion that while fundamentalism started as a purely religious movement, right-wing political operatives are currently directing and funding the movement. How else could megachurches spring up with huge campuses overnight?

[rd_kent]

38. I would say you are right and I agree

on most of your points. I do think that the fundie get the coverage but it shouldnt be about coverage. Make your own story by making it one: "Church leaders condemn Robertson's comments", or "Christian parents show disdain for Westboro" or.....You get my point. Make the story the fact that the religion is reclaiming itslef from the fringe.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. Mainstream leaders condemned the Iraq invasion unanimously

and it was on page 24 of the B section.

We're "boring" and we have no political backing.

[rd_kent]

40. Its unfortunate

since the vocal minority gets all the attention. Seems like if you all stood up at once.........

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. Uh, and we accomplish that how if the united voices of the leaders

of all the mainstream denominations got no media attention? I must emphasize that the statement opposing the Iraq War was the united voice of the leadership of the Roman Catholic, Episcopal, ELCA Lutheran, United Methodist, Presbyterian, UCCs, and Lord knows how many other mainstream denominations, together representing the MAJORITY of the Christians in this country, and they got no attention

The corporate media do not want the general public to know that the majority of Christian denominations are opposed to conservative social and foreign policies.

For example, the anti-choice movement in the Roman Catholic church gets tons of free publicity from the media. But when Catholic leaders (even the socially retrograde Pope!) speak out against war and for labor unions and against greed, do the media mention that? No, because they're part of the corporate establishment that is for war, against labor unions, and built on greed.

Similarly, did you know that the Episcopal Church (my denomination) passed a resolution in favor of single-payer health care? No? Do you suppose that their PR people DIDN'T send out press releases? I bet all you heard about the Episcopal General Convention (if anything) were the (good) decisions on GLBT issues. The media LIKE the GLBT issues: anything remotely concerned with sexuality and certain to rile up half the readers without threatening the political-economic establishment is no problem with them. News of a denomination favoring single-payer health care might upset the advertisers, though.

One thing I learned from working on the Kucinich campaign in 2004 is that you can send out press releases, have demonstrations, do anything you want, and if the media won't cover it, the public will never find out about it.

Back in 2004, the Kucinich campaign held a rally that packed a large high school auditorium in Minneapolis. We invited the media, and some of them even showed up. When I hurried home to watch the nightly newscasts, I found that ONE station showed a 15-second film clip, while the other three spent most of their newscasts talking about a scandal involving some county sheriff who had an affair with a deputy's wife and did not mention the rally.

Even though I was only a peripheral figure in that local campaign, it was a HIGHLY educational experience. I believe that ever since the Vietnam War era, when anti-war demonstrations were on the news every day, the corporate media have held to a policy of stifling left-leaning movements in every aspect of life--political, economic, religious, organizational--by ignoring or discrediting them.

[rd_kent]

42. I don't have the answer

ut I wish I did. It is very difficult for me, as an atheist, to see this issue from your point of view. But I am trying! I guess it would take your team to make a coordinated effort, make a scene, make people take notice, go EVERYWHERE the wing-nuts go in larger numbers. Make it so that the media CANNOT ignore you. Thats what I see your side NOT doing.

For me, I choose to fight insanity with reason and logic. If I can get through to just one irrational wing-nut, maybe they will get through to one, and so on....

This is a daunting task, I agree. But the implications of doing nothing mean the eventual END of your religion as it devolves into Jim Jones like cults.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. Actually, we pick up a lot of "refugees" from fundamentalist churches

Far from devolving, the mainstream churches are moving closer to one another, and the overall trend is liberal.

[JerseygirlCT]

51. Isn't TEC now moving toward communion with UMC

too?

After the Lutherans and TEC did that.

So yes, there may be some moving together of the mainstream churches - and at least a fair amount of agreement there.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. I don't recall anything about that, but as a former Lutheran, I did notice

that we now have full Communion and pulpit fellowship with the ELCA.

[JerseygirlCT]

56. Yeah, I think I read that the beginnings of a similar

move wrt UMC is underway.

[Critters2]

60. Sad, sad, sad, nt

[Critters2]

59. That would disappoint me, given the UMC's hateful position on lgbt issues.

I hope it isn't true.

[JerseygirlCT]

61. Well, I don't think it would or could cause TEC to move backwards

in fact, it would be my hope that it would hasten UMC's move toward equality.

It doesn't mean a great deal, day to day. Just that clergy can preside in the other church, and that sort of thing. The folks in the pews don't see a lot of difference. (We always got on well with the ECLA churches in town, for instance. The official stuff hasn't changed that).

I do think it would end up helping the cause, not hurting it. And I do think TEC has made it's stand and there's no going back now. The schismatics will make their stink and join Akinola's church or some other entity that allows them to act holy and hate gay people and women, and life in the TEC will continue to move forward.

Hey, if we could take some UMC churches in that direction, that would be good, wouldn't it?

[Critters2]

62. The UMC has demonstrated itself to be completely intransigent on these issues.

They've had opportunity after opportunity. They still say "homosexuality is incompatible with the Christian faith". They reaffirmed this again this summer.

What the UMC does, by insisting that it is somehow a liberal church, is send the message that one can consider oneself a liberal Christian and hate gays. It's time for welcoming denominations to start calling the UMC out on this lie, rather than tolerating its intolerance.

The Southern Baptists and Mormons have exactly the same position on glbt issues as the UMC. Why is the ECUSA not talking about entering into open communion with them? Because they haven't done the PR work the UMC has. But "open hearts, open minds, open doors" is a lie, and needs to be named for what it is.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

64. The Methodists are not liberal.

Even though many people on this site insist they are welcoming to gays.

The First of the Principles of Unitarian Universalism is:

The Inherent Worth and Dignity of EVERY Person.

Too bad some people can't agree with that.

[raccoon]

46. Great post--worthy of its own thread! Esp. these points:

"The media LIKE...anything remotely concerned with sexuality and certain to rile up half the readers without threatening the political-economic establishment is no problem with them. News of a denomination favoring single-payer health care might upset the advertisers, though."

"...ever since the Vietnam War era, when anti-war demonstrations were on the news every day, the corporate media have held to a policy of stifling left-leaning movements in every aspect of life--political, economic, religious, organizational--by ignoring or discrediting them."

[JerseygirlCT]

34. Welcome! And I agree wholeheartedly

It's frustrating in the extreme to see Christianity hijacked by some hateful people. And so much like the way the word "liberal" is supposed to be an insult in many quarters, so "Christian" has become that in too many places as well.

Though I'd hope for more understanding and thoughtfulness within the Democratic community. Call me naive on that count.

[TxRider]

29. Add giving 100 billion to charity in 2008 and chartiable works to your list.

[darkstar3]

44. If you're using the IRS numbers, it doesn't count

Because a VERY high percentage of those "charitable donations" are tithes and other donations directly to the church. How much of that money that goes into the collection plate makes it out the door in the form of charity, and how much is used to fund the parsonage, the pastor, the accountant, and heaven (or the universe or whatever) forbid the church help fund a SCHOOL, 'cause then they'll be BROKE.

In other words, faith has NO monopoly on charity, contrary to what you might have heard.

[JerseygirlCT]

52. The number of secular charities in this country would definitely

confirm that.

I don't think faith has any corner on that market. But I do think a fair amount of good gets done - often quietly - by people of faith. Either in an "official" and organized fashion or just one by one.

I do agree with you also about building campaigns, etc. not being charitable actions. I sort of consider most of what I give to my church more like "dues". I get something from my involvement, so it's only fair I contribute. I prefer the contributions I can make directly to charitable endeavors of ours, though.

[JerseygirlCT]

33. Not the churches I've belonged to.

I'm sure this is the case in some places. But the picture you paint is anything but exhaustive.

IME, Christianity is about doing unto others... about seeking service as a way toward a relationship with God.

I've never gotten the feeling that anyone at my church is keeping score. Our church exists because coming together in worship is a fruitful practice for the people there. Our church does outreach (soup kitchens, mission trips, other charity work) because that's the truest expression of our faith.

[darkstar3]

45. Not an attack,

but just recently the concept of "church charity" has gotten my goat, and I just want to say that 'mission trips' are not charity. I'm glad that your church is involved in soup kitchens and other charity work, but 'mission trips' are evangelism, and not charity, because while charitable works MAY be performed on that trip, the main purpose of a mission trip is to bring 'the Word.'

At least, that's what it meant in the church from my childhood.

[JerseygirlCT]

48. Actually, again, that's not true

Our mission trips consist of traveling somewhere in the states and, much like Americares, helping to rebuild someone's house or houses - yardwork, carpentry, painting - whatever is needed.

The religious component only comes in when the folks who've traveled get together for worship in the evenings after work. None of the beneficiaries of the work are preached to at all. People who need some help are offered that help - period.

[darkstar3]

49. I stand corrected, at least for your church.

I'm happy that your 'mission work' is all about helping people, and not about proselytizing. (I'm not entirely sure how much I believe that proselytizing isn't involved, given the word 'mission', but I don't want to fight with you because you personally seem kind.)

Even though I'm happy for you personally, I stand by my point. The traditional meaning of the phrase 'mission work' does involve quite a bit of proselytizing/evangelism. It is, after all, born out of the days when Christians would be sent on 'missions' to the heathen lands to save the masses while doing good works.

So kudos to you and your church...I just wish churches in my hometown were similar.

[JerseygirlCT]

50. Oh, I know that, unfortunately (IMO) oftentimes

the "mission" is all about pushing religion on people, and very little about helping them in tangible ways.

But really - it's not always that. These trips that the young people in my parish have been taking involve kids from all over the country - and from not just the Episcopal church, but also other mainstream churches.

And I suspect that the people involved (kids and the adults accompanying them) get at least as much from the experience as the people being helped.

I just think it's a whole lot better to walk the walk - and let people get from that what they will - than to make the help you offer contingent on talking at them...

But I have to say, it was the same for me growing up in a Roman Catholic church. We just didn't do that proselytizing thing.

As an Episcopalian now, I know one of those inside jokes is that evangelism is the "E-word"... we shy from it. I think it's more that we shy from the sort of brow-beating, all talk no action stuff practiced elsewhere. We'd rather be welcoming and try to act our faith. If people want to know more, they'll ask.

I'll just also add that my husband, an agnostic Jew who pretty much disdains most religious practice, has said he'd want our son to do one of these trips when he's old enough. First time he's been the one to encourage a church activity, lol.

[darkstar3]

53. See, here's the part where my head starts spinning.

It's a strange dichotomous problem I find myself in.

As an atheist, I LOVE the fact that you are calm, rational, and even-handed regarding your faith. The light touch, the simple and quiet spirituality, and above all the fact that your faith leads you to help others without an ulterior motive...these are great.

But this is where the dichotomous problem comes in.

Everything I said above is completely true, and yet I don't WANT you to be calm. I don't WANT you to be quiet. I want the stand-up examples of faith like you to SHOUT down the psychos. I want you to make the world understand, not JUST that your kind are the 'real Christians', but that the right-wing assholes are so far out there that we should all be laughing at them. Don't just make yourselves heard, make the others a joke, so we can finally take away their political power, and make the world a better place for those who want to coexist.

[JerseygirlCT]

54. Well, it's a tricky thing, for sure

Because ideally (and believe me, I'm not an ideal, by any means. Just play one sometimes, lol), the example would be enough. And ideally, we'd be too concerned about helping others to give too much attention to those on the wrong track. It's tough - I absolutely agree that I'd like to see the calm and more progressive people getting some attention - not for the attention itself, but as you say, to point out the failings of those who twist religion to hate. But as Lydia points out, we've got the disinterest of the media (unless we go and consecrate a - gasp! - openly gay bishop), and then we've also got a call not to get all nasty and ugly ourselves. Sometimes you end up becoming that which you fight, you know?

And again, believe me, I'm all for railing against the haters. I sit here pounding on my keyboard about it too much, lol. No saint, I. But I do feel that what I'm *supposed* to be doing is looking for God in everyone. Even the nasty ugly haters that I want to hate. (See where that gets us caught?)

Personally, I think religion is a tool - something people can use as a means of bringing them closer to God. And I think that what God wants from us is to be kind and giving to others. But I don't think religion is necessary to lead that sort of giving life at all. Some of the most giving people I've known are atheists. In short, in my view, religion is for me; love is for God.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. Yes, in the Episcopal Church, "mission trip" doesn't mean proselytizing

This is another example of "Episco-speak" that may not be clear to other people.

For example, when a group of us went to the Mississippi Gulf Coast after Katrina to work in a Lutheran-Episcopal aid center, that was considered a "mission trip," but we did no proselytizing, although there was a shelf of Bibles in the food distribution tent and people could take one if they wanted (along with other books, school supplies, children's toys, etc.), but no one was required to take anything they didn't want.

Another "mission trip" from my parish went to Cuba to help the Episcopalians there rebuild buildings that were damaged in hurricanes.

Episcopalians aren't much into proselytizing. In general, people come to us.

[raccoon]

47. I'd rec this if I could. I agree with the author that there are multitudes of ninnies

(actually, that is too kind a word!) out there who think doing the things on the list make them a "good" person.

[sspeilbergfan90]

57. Of course they are

[gk88850]

63. yeah. look at the religious right

[Deep13]

65. I don't know.

None of the ones I have ever gone to are. But then I have never gone to a fundamentalist church.