Jesus performed miracles?

[Disturbed]

A brief list from memory.

Walked on water.
Raised a person from actual death.
Cured a leper.
Changed water into wine.
Created hundreds of loaves of bread from a few loaves.
Replaced a cut off ear.
Rose from being dead after three days.

More?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

1. Lived at home until the age of 33

and never held a job.

[flakey_foont]

5. Hey!

if that's a miracle,,,, then my brother is a saint!!!!

[Tux]

12. Crap

I'm 30, live with my dad. I had jobs before. Damn, I could have been a Saint.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

13. If I were you,

I'd be very, very careful in my choice of friends about three years from now.

I'm just sayin'.........................

[Tux]

15. Yeah

Might lead to a job, gf, and a life of my own. lol

[catbert836]

20. Not to be a party ruiner or anything, but

most historians, at least those with some credit, acknowledge that Jesus worked as a carpenter from his teenage years until he was at least 30, at which time he started his public ministry. He was a carpenter because that's what his father was, and Jewish sons of that age usually did whatever their father did for work.
Jesus did work. It's just that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John didn't see fit to talk about this more mundane aspect of Jesus' life.

[dattaswamI]

31. GOD (HOLY SPIRIT) AND HUMAN INCARNATION

GOD (HOLY SPIRIT) AND HUMAN INCARNATION

STATEMENT: - MATHEW 10: 40

Lord Jesus was the human incarnation of the Holy Spirit. The human body of Holy Jesus is like the metallic wire, which was all over, pervaded by the Holy Spirit. Veda says ‘Antarbahischa’ which means that the Holy Spirit pervades all over the body of Human Incarnation. Wherever you touch the wire the electric shock is given. Similarly the entire human body of Holy Jesus is holy. The holiness is the nature of Holy Spirit just like the shock is the property of electricity. As the electricity cannot be separated from the wire, the Holy Spirit cannot be separated from the Holy Jesus. So here the Holy Spirit is the Holy Jesus. Holy Jesus refers this Holy Spirit as His Father. He tells that He was sent by His father as a messenger. Though He and His father are one and the same, He speaks like this for which there is a practical reason i.e.; every human being repels with another human being. A man cannot accept another man as God due to Jealousy and Egoism. Bhagavatgita says, “A man will insult Me when I come here in human form (Avajananti mam….)”. For this purpose Holy Jesus wants Himself to be called only as the messenger of the Holy Spirit by the disciples whenever He is introduced to the public. If He tells the truth the egoistic public will not hear even what He preaches and will reject Him. Therefore He is telling His disciples to introduce Him as a messenger only. Of course, the disciples are really the messengers of Holy Jesus.

Holy Spirit has taken over the human body of Holy Jesus and pervaded all over the body to preach the divine knowledge to this world. The same Holy Spirit is sending the disciples for the propagation of the Divine knowledge. Both the body of Holy Jesus and the disciples are instruments of the Holy Spirit chosen for different purposes. The Holy Spirit is preaching through the body of Holy Jesus and is propagating the divine knowledge through disciples. Therefore if you respect the disciple you are respecting the Holy Spirit indirectly. Though both the instruments exist like this, the Holy Spirit is present in Jesus and is not present in the disciples. Due to this difference the disciple is an indirect instrument and the direct instrument is Holy Jesus. The disciple propagates the divine knowledge after hearing from the Holy Jesus. Therefore when such disciple is respected, Holy Jesus is respected first and then the Holy Spirit. But among the disciples there may be some person who cannot repeat what Holy Jesus exactly preached. In such a case the Holy Spirit will take over the body of that disciple and preaches (Mathew 10: 20). Such a disciple differs from Holy Jesus because the Holy Spirit resides in that disciple for some time only where as the Holy Spirit resides in Jesus all the time.

Holy Jesus is telling that He is the messenger of the Holy Spirit and He is also telling that the disciple is His messenger. He is giving the same status to Himself and the disciple by telling like this. The reason is that some disciple may become jealous in future if He says that He Himself is the Holy Spirit where as the disciple is His messenger only. The difference in the status may bring jealousy. Therefore He is maintaining the equal status so that no devotee becomes jealous of Jesus in the future. Due to jealousy the disciple may slip from Holy Jesus.

When He says that He is only the messenger, this shows the humble and submissiveness of Holy Jesus. He wants His disciples to be humble and submissive to the Holy Spirit through out their lives. For this purpose He sets Himself as an ideal. The Holy Spirit present in the human body of Holy Jesus is the essence of true and infinite knowledge as Veda says “Satyam Jnanam Anantam Brahma….”. Humbleness and submissiveness are the fruits of the Divine Knowledge. Therefore the humbleness and submissiveness are the qualities of the Holy Spirit itself. This means whatever Holy Jesus speaks is the statement of the Holy Spirit only.

THE ONLY LOVE

Luke—14:26 to 27

“If any one comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he can not be my disciple’’.

The knowledge is compared to a sword. Bhagavatgita says “Chhitva Jnanasinatmanah”. This means that the ignorance should be cut by the knowledge, which is like a sword. The bonds with wife or husband and children are due to ignorance. Such bonds should break when the Lord in human form competes with them to conduct His test. Lord comes in human form in every human generation to preach and give His direct presence. If the Lord comes in only one human generation, God becomes partial to that human generation because other human generations are not blessed with such opportunity.

To see, to touch, to talk and to live with the human incarnation, He comes down as per the prayers of the devotees. The Lord comes to preach and so He will not enter the statues or animals or birds. Veda says “Na tasya pratima asti’’ which means that God will not enter the inert statues.

Gita says “Manusheem tanu masritam” which means that God enters the human body only because the main purpose is to preach the human beings. Gita strongly says that he who worships the inert statues will be born as an inert stone (“Bhootani yanti”). The Christians should be commended on this point who are worshipping the Holy Jesus only, who is the most powerful human incarnation of God. Veda says “Na tat samah” which means that nobody and nothing should be equal to the Lord in human incarnation. One should leave everything and everybody for the sake of the Lord in human form. The bond with the human beings can be broken only by the bond with a new human being. Such new human being must be very powerful who can be only God in human form.

A new bond existing with formless God or statues cannot break the human bonds. Only the bond with another living being can cut the bond with the living beings. The bond with formless God is impossible. The bond with inert statue has no use. The above statements of Holy Jesus indicate that one should cut the bonds with his family and with the wealth. In Hindu religion also it is said that God (Datta) cuts all the bonds of family and wealth (“Dattam Chinnam”). Even the bond with the body should be cut for the sake of the God. Gita says the same thing as “Mat Gata Pranah”. Holy Jesus says that one has to carry his own cross (death) for the sake of the Lord. This means that one has to invite his own death with his own hands for the sake of God. Holy Jesus did like this as an ideal example for others. This means that you have to cut your bonds not only with your family and wealth but also with your life if necessary.

Hanuman, a top devotee, tore his heart with his own nails for the sake of the Lord and was blessed by the Lord to be immortal. So when the devotee sacrifices his life, his life gets protected forever. The essence of this gospel is that the love is proved only by the practical sacrifice. Veda says “Dhanena Tyage nyke…” which means that sacrifice of money proves the real love. Money is the fruit of the work. So money is another form of work. If it is inconvenient to sacrifice the money, at least they should sacrifice the other form of money, which is work for the sake of God. Depending on the money all the family members are attached to you. If money is not there all the family will leave you. You are also giving the money to your family only.

Therefore if the bond with money is cut and if the money is sacrificed to God, the family bonds are considered as vanished, even though the family exists externally. The work of God in human form is the propagation of His divine gospel. For doing such divine work the family also stands as an obstacle because most of your energy is diverted for the family only. Therefore you do not have any energy to work for the sake of Lord. Hence Holy Jesus wants His disciples to leave their families for the sake of God. The propagation work needs both money and work. Generally every body works to maintain his family. In the name of maintenance, several luxuries are introduced, which look like essential needs and thus there is no end for your work to earn the money for the sake of your body and your family.

Your blindness increases and you will be putting more and more efforts to work and earn money for the sake of the family bonds. In such a case you can never even see the human form of God. At least you should remove your blindness by the divine knowledge if not the actual bonds. People of very high devotion only can cut the actual bonds. You are giving money to your family but you are giving words to God by prayers and you are giving mind to God through meditation. You are giving love to your family through your work and money, you are calling the sacrifice of words and sacrifice of mind as love to God and you are fooling the God. Your real love is only with your family and not with the God. Holy Jesus tests your real love to God by these statements. The Christian Pope and fathers and the Hindu Acharya and saints left their families and concentrated completely on the work of God. Such pious souls can only be representatives of God in this world.

[madeline_con]

39. try again...

He worked with Joseph as a carpenter.

Extended families were, and still are,. the norm in some parts of the world. Adults share the family home with their parents, wives and kids. Some people don't kick their kid to the curb on their 18th birthday.

[anitar1]

2. He also created all of the right wing religious nut jobs.

[texastoast]

4. He didn't do it

THEY created themselves. Jesus and religion have little to do with each other. If Jesus were in the grave, he would be soooo rolling over these days.

[aneerkoinos]

7. Umm

"THEY created themselves"

Umm, being that is it's own cause and not dependent of any external cause is actually the definition of philosophers God. So Neocon Fundies are God? ;)

Seriously, it would do no harm to try to understand what and how becomes a neocon, what are the deepest roots of fascism and fundamentalism in our psyche and our collective language. Difficult part is, can't be done without taking a good look in the mirror.

[texastoast]

16. You got it right

It's all one big deal. Black white. Up down. All perspective. All choice made manifest. And the mirror is the only place to start.

[madeline_con]

40. ???

whatever.

[rurallib]

3. Pat Robertson can do all that before breakfast

Did Jesus believe in Pat Robertson?

[madeline_con]

41. He'd smite his ass!

Jesus wouldn't put up with the likes of Robertson, Falwell or ORAL (that name cracks me up) or that Phelps sphincter for 10 seconds.

Sad truth is, Pat et al and a whole group of misinformed so-called "Christians" think he believes. :puke:

[dweller]

6. those are just the ones that were recorded

and you forgot the fishes.




dp

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. Another one

Jesus looked upon the people of his time as worthy children of God, no matter what they had done or who they were. He had a tax collector (Matthew) as a disciple, and he told the adulterous woman whom he saved from stoning to go and sin no more. He was a man without judgement who walked his talk. This, in any day and age, is rare to find.

[aneerkoinos]

9. Aye

To see the spark of God/Liberated soulmind in each being, without any culturally or otherwise conditioned judgementalism, and to act and speak aloud that truth so that others might get liberated, is a mark of man of compassion without separation.

Sure, Jesus spoke some words about rich men, but those are not culturally conditioned, but eternal truths... ;)

[Disturbed]

10. I wonder if most people really believe that all of those magic

acts occurred?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

14. Oh, you better believe they do

Just think of the concept of transsubstantiation, and try to do it without getting the willies.

These are the same folks, by the way, who scoff at the notion of the possibility of sentient life forms anywhere else in the solar system. Yet, they're content with their certainty that a big guy up in the sky is not only watching their every move, but he knows their every thought and will, in fact, decide what happens to them after they die.

[Igel]

17. You even managed to post about transubstantiation on

Corpus Christi Day (something I know of only because I just returned from Poland, where it's a national holiday and the country shuts down). None of the Poles I asked could say what it was about. A web search done after I got home said that CCD is to celebrate the "sacrament of the altar", i.e., transubstantiation.

My bit of religious trivia for the day.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. Miracles aren't magic acts

Magic implies personal power and a manipulation of structure to make something appear to have happened-but when one looks upon it critically, one can see that it isn't real.

Miracles occur when one leaves one's ego behind and lets the power of the One come through. They are real and lasting. I cannot say whether Jesus's miracles occurred; knowing Aramaic is a language of idioms and analogies, the miracles could just be a turn of an Aramaic phrase, as it were.

But in my own experience, I have been the recipient of several miracles, praise the One!

[aneerkoinos]

22. Magic(k)

Definining magic by personal power is mostly a Christian invention (jealous patent office that the Church is), and that definion has little if anything to do with practitioners of magic, alchemists, etc. Outside the view through tainted glasses of pistic monotheism, magic (and occult) is a wide and complex phenomenon and not easily definable, I would say that what is the uniting theme of all magi is openminded and empirical attitude to the body-mind problem. In that sense prayer is a subset of magic.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. I see you are speaking of magic in a larger sense

I was assuming, perhaps wrongly, that the poster to whom I responded was talking about magic of the Penn and Teller or Houdini ilk.

Of course, alchemy is something far different, as is using sacred ritual to find Unity. However, I have come across people on the spiritual path who feel that it takes their personal power to make things happen, not realizing where true Power lies.

[madeline_con]

42. In that sense prayer is a subset of magic.

prayer = medidtation = thinking about something

[Zhade]

25. This was, and remains, the only proven miracle he performed.

(Assuming he actually existed.)

All the rest was dress-up to get the pagans to switch.

But this was one HECK of a miracle, I'll say!

[H2O Man]

26. It is the method

of conveying a message in those days. Jesus taught in parables; his life becomes a parable. He was a tribal person, and is recorded in the method of tribal people. If he were Roman, he would be a statistic acceptable to those who view the world in Roman terms.

The miracles are not intended to be taken literally by those with understanding. I've noted before that the "raising of the dead" was something that Malcolm X did in the back alleys and gutters of America. He gave sight to the blind, and made those who were deaf before able to hear.

Walking on water? Listen to Martin deliver the word in his "A Time to Break Silence," speech, a year to the day before he was killed.

Jesus is most powerful when we remove the nails that pin him up on a stained glass window, and place him into a fully human context.

[Zhade]

48. Agreed. If he existed, he was just a man.

A really great man, for the most part, but just a man.

I never understand why his purported words aren't enough for so many Christians. They have a need to prove something that has no supporting evidence and really can't be proven at this time.

[H2O Man]

55. He taught using parables.

They were the accepted teaching method of his day. Those who wrote about him used a similar technique. Today, many people do not appreciate that. They assume the books known as the gospels are biographies. The gospels themselves say quite openly that Jesus's message couldn't always be taken in literal terms.

Regarding the comment that he was a man .... "a really great man, but just a man" .... I agree. But I will add that his message was also about the value of being half-way between "great" and "just." As humans, we can only view "God" through symbolic fog. Our Father. The Universe. Energy. The Unknown. Jesus taught what the great Masters throughout time have taught: yes, learn from history, respect the past, grow from studying the teachers of old. But: Be Here Now. The "Mighty God" we can understand/access is Living Man.

[applegrove]

11. Told everyone to stop stoning each other and think of him when

they felt like scapegoating others for disease, locusts or poor rains.

He told people that..and many listened. (Though not everybody all the time).

[Disturbed]

18. The Sermon On the Mount

Do people really need to believe that Jesus performed all of the miracles to try to follow his teachings?

I mean would it matter if he hadn't performed any of the miracles attributed to him?

[applegrove]

19. I don't believe in the miracles you refer to. But i think that he got

a great number of people (even if he was a composite) to stop stoning each other because he wanted to die one time for all the scapegoats, i think that is a miracle of sorts. Not that he ever got up. Not that I believe every story in the Bible. Just that he changed the way people thought.

Isn't human thinking, learning and progress a miracle? I think so. I think empathy is a miracle.

[ollie79]

35. it matters

It would matter in the sense that certain miracles he performed points to His divinity. Like, having control over nature "Even the wind and waves obey him," points to the same kind of power one only has over creation, (Genesis)

[Zhade]

24. No, but that doesn't detract from his purported teachings.

It always seems silly to me that so many believers pay more heed to miracles never proven to be true over the words of the guy they allegedly follow.

Of course, there are many Christians who don't buy into the supernatural myths, like the virgin birth or Jesus-as-more-than-man, to their credit.

And, to the credit of many who DO buy the myths, it doesn't prevent them from being great people.

[Dcitizen]

27. According to the Messengers from John the Baptist

Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised. (Luke 7:22)

and more

the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven... (Luke 3:22)

And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full...And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. (Mark 4:39) Matthew(8:23-27)(Luke 8:22-25)

[Nihil]

28. Re "the feeding of the five thousand"

I have often wondered about a more straightforward explanation for
"the miracle of feeding a large crowd with five loaves and two fishes":

You have a crowd (large but unlikely to be "five thousand") of people
who have travelled out to hear the teacher tell his lessons of kindness
and honesty so there was obviously some inner interest in the message
to be delivered. The crowd have then gone on to stay for several hours,
listening and implicitly agreeing (else they wouldn't have stayed) to
the advice to live in peace & harmony, to give up the grubbing, greedy
pride-filled life and replace it with one of sharing & selflessness,
of forgiveness & tolerance, of open hearts & generosity.

When it comes to the point when people are feeling hungry, what happens?
Do the people who planned ahead and brought food sneak away to eat?
Do they surrepticiously break their bread and smuggle it to their mouth
or do they even sit back, eating regardless of their neighbours?

How about after a child - with the innocence that can even now be seen
in youngsters regardless of race, religion or background - offers to
share his food with the people next to him? The food that his mother
had packed for him being shared around with those who - for whatever
reason - hadn't brought any themselves?

Having experienced what is coldly termed "crowd dynamics" on many
occasions, I fully believe that those people would have chosen to
act on the message that they had been hearing, had been welcoming;
the message of "love one another" that had been changing them from
the inside for the last few hours.

People would have shared their food with others around them.
People with plenty would make sure that no-one in their immediate
area would go hungry. In addition, many of the people would simply
decline with a polite "no thank-you" when offered a piece of an
already small share in order that the giver's generosity would be
rewarded.

That is one tale from the Bible that I really do like as (in my view)
it doesn't require any magical intervention, it is simply a superb
lesson in human relationships - one I truly wish would scale to
national levels.

Nihil

[Dcitizen]

29. Very important, more than miracle.

Jesus says " I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world". (John 6:51)

He taught and granted the resurrection to the crowd of followers.

[DemBones DemBones]

30. Also just from memory, Jesus calmed a storm when

He and His disciples were out in a boat and a storm came up.

He cast out demons from a woman and ordered them into some pigs.

He cured a blind man, restoring his sight.

He healed a woman who had suffered from a hemorrhage for thirty years, and this miracle was done when she merely touched the hem of His robe, praying for a cure.

As I recall, Jesus raised a couple of people who had died but were not yet buried -- a woman, Tolitha, and a little girl -- in two separate incidents. He also raised Lazarus from the dead and Lazarus had been in his tomb three or four days before Jesus heard of his death and raised him.

In Catholic theology, Jesus instituted the Eucharist, changing bread and wine to His Body and Blood, and commanding that this be done in His name after His death.

I disagree that the Resurrection was a miracle performed by Jesus, though, but rather by God the Father and/ or the Holy Spirit, like the Transfiguration or the Ascension, or the Nativity, for that matter.

[Zhade]

32. Of course, there is no independent evidence of these actually occurring.

NT!

[Disturbed]

33. There is no evidence of any of this occuring.

People believe in various things because the wish to do so or they have been brainwashed to do so and don't question the stories.

I do not believe these miracle stories but it does not negate the message of Jesus. It is too bad that Jesus never wrote anything or if he did no documents survived. The message of the Sermon On the Mount is powerful and need not be accompanied with miracles.

[Zhade]

34. Heck yeah, the purported teachings of Jesus (well, 99% of them) rock!

I find it sad that some believers feel the need to "prove" things they know they can't possibly show to be true in order to bolster the message of the guy they claim to follow.

Weren't the words about taking care of the least among us good enough that they don't need supernatural myths to back them up?

[onager]

36. But only if you ignore the other stuff attributed to JC...

Like blasting a fig tree for refusing to grow fruit out of season. Or infesting those Gadarene swine with demons. (What were all those swine doing in a kosher neighborhood, anyhow?)

Or outrageously dissing his own mother. ("Woman, what have you to do with me?")

Or preaching that his ministry will set family members against each other...one of the few "prophecies" that has come true, unfortunately.

All in all, the Buy-bull reminds me of a famous snarky remark from Dr. Samuel Johnson. An aspiring writer once sent Dr. Johnson a manuscript and asked for his opinion. Johnson replied:

"Your work is both good and unoriginal. Unfortunately, the good parts are not original and the original parts are not good."

IMO, the Bible is exactly the same way. Most of the good stuff like the Golden Rule was stolen from other places. And most of the original stuff, like an infinitely loving gawd who roasts people in hell for eternity, is definitely not good.

[madeline_con]

43. Reminder

>>>"I find it sad that some believers feel the need to "prove" things they know they can't possibly show to be true in order to bolster the message of the guy they claim to follow."<<<

I don't think the ones who want proof are believers.

[Zhade]

54. True, they're just the one who wrongly think they have the proof.

When, in fact, they have zero objective evidence for their claims.

[DerekG]

37. The secular humanist may feel it "need not be accompanied with miracles"

The atheist or agnostic--or some Unitarians, I suppose--can fancy Jesus to be "a nice guy" or "the good example" (to make reference to Jefferson's supposition) and place him in a rather large pantheon (but not large enough, alas) of enlightened men and women who tried to change the world for the better.

And yet, for the orthodox Christian, it is the divinity of Christ (reflected, in part, by the miracles you think to be superfluous) that gives the Sermon on the Mount its urgency; for these beatitudes were delivered by the human incarnation of God. This can not be underscored enough. Take the Christ title away from Jesus, and you're left with just another idealist who was murdered by politicos and charlatans; but when he is the Son of God, the Pascal Lamb, then the narrative of his life, death and resurrection serves as a kind of love story, the greatest love story of the Western world. It is a story of God's victory over the power of death. This is important when reflecting upon the Christian progressives, who did not buckle before statist evil, for they felt they too had a cross to bear, a responsibility required of those who perceived Jesus to be not a mere victim of history, but the Redeemer. Those who are not religious simply can't fathom how transformative this realization can be.


The Jesus who was merely human was not enough for David Walker.

Nor was it sufficient for Dorothy Day.

Or A.J. Muste.

Or Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Or Fathers Daniel and Philip Berrigan.

[Zhade]

38. It may not have been enough for them, but that in no way proves it true.

Humans are funny creatures - we can believe almost anything if we try hard enough.

[madeline_con]

44. Please read up on..

the Hero myths of some of the major religions. Hero worship, a savior born during the winter solstice, all that predates Christianity by literally millenia.

As Shakespeare said, "There is nothing new under the sun."
There is nothing new in the Christian message.

[DerekG]

45. I am, in fact, fairly educated on these matters

The Virgin Births in mythology are legion (the genesis of Heracles and Theseus are but two instances), as are acts of resurrection (Osiris and Dionysus); accordingly, one only need look to Mithraism to see, for example, the antecedents of the three sages, or to Confucianism for the Golden Rule.

Nevertheless, I see, in Christ, the perfect synthesis: equal parts social prophet/healer/wisdom teacher/movement initiator/spirit person (to make reference to Marcus Borg). I began my sojourn into the world of comparative religion as an open-minded theist, grew to favor the Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions (for their emphasis on social justice) and fastened onto Christianity (thanks to the masterworks of Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, and Lewis and through the theological writings of men like Merton and Bonhoeffer).

Simply put: it just seemed right.

[madeline_con]

46. I'm just saying...

some people seem to think it's only 2000 years old, this ethical and religious system called Christianity. B@peace :)

[DerekG]

47. I agree: the level of ignorance (re: comparative religion) is disturbing

I was merely responding to those who see value in stripping Christianity--or any religion, for that matter--of its mysticism, leaving only an ethical system.

Peace to you and yours.

[Zhade]

49. It's a matter of reflecting reality, not stripping anything away.

The mythology was added on after the alleged man that was Jesus died. His purported words were (mostly) great, and don't need unproven miracles to stand on their own.

[DerekG]

50. An unnecessary history lesson

I'm well aware that Mark--the first of the synoptic gospels--was crafted at least 40 years after the death of Christ. This fact does little damage to the supposition that scripture reflects one's experience of the divine; ergo, while the Gospels may not necessarily be the word of God, I do believe them to be the witness to God.

I, and 1.5+ billion others--whether they be radical peacemakers, like Archbishop Desmond Tutu and William Coffin, or reactionary warmongers, like Bush and Falwell--see something divine in Christ.

The fact of the matter is: we'll never see eye to eye; so let us just agree to disagree.

[Zhade]

52. As long as you don't insist that the bible is factually true, I'm cool.

Once people start demanding people "admit" the "literal truth" about something that, at best, is currently unproven, that's when I get testy - I don't care for willful ignorance or revisionist history.

Since I don't see you doing that, I have no beef with you.

[DerekG]

53. Well, anyone who exposes the neo-liberals in the DLC is alright with me

As a Christian socialist (yes, there are still some of us left), I extoll any effort to defraud the more "sophisticated" wing of the War Party.

Kudos.

[Dcitizen]

51. Holy Fire at Jesus' tomb, Jerusalem

It has taken place at the same time, in the same manner, in the same place every single year for centuries. No other miracle is known to occur so regularly and so steadily over time. It happens inside the tomb at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, the holiest place on earth<2>, where Christ was crucified, entombed, and where He finally rose from the dead...

How the miracle occurs:

"I enter the tomb and kneel in holy fear in front of the place where Christ lay after His death and where He rose again from the dead... (narrates Orthodox Patriarch Diodor - ed.). I find my way through the darkness towards the inner chamber in which I fall on my knees. Here I say certain prayers that have been handed down to us through the centuries and, having said them, I wait. Sometimes I may wait a few minutes, but normally the miracle happens immediately after I have said the prayers. From the core of the very stone on which Jesus lay an indefinable light pours forth. It usually has a blue tint, but the colour may change and take many different hues. It cannot be described in human terms. The light rises out of the stone as mist may rise out of a lake — it almost looks as if the stone is covered by a moist cloud, but it is light. This light each year behaves differently. Sometimes it covers just the stone, while other times it gives light to the whole sepulchre, so that people who stand outside the tomb and look into it will see it filled with light. The light does not burn — I have never had my beard burnt in all the sixteen years I have been Patriarch in Jerusalem and have received the Holy Fire. The light is of a different consistency than normal fire that burns in an oil lamp... At a certain point the light rises and forms a column in which the fire is of a different nature, so that I am able to light my candles from it. When I thus have received the flame on my candles, I go out and give the fire first to the Armenian Patriarch and then to the Coptic. Hereafter I give the flame to all people present in the Church."
...

The Gospels speaks of Romans that went to seal the tomb of Jesus, so his disciples would not steal his body and claim he had risen. In the same way the Israeli authorities on this Easter Saturday come and seal the tomb with wax.

Before they seal the door it is customary that they enter the tomb to check for any hidden source of fire, which could produce the miracle through fraud. After the tomb has been checked and sealed, all people in the Church chant the Kyrie Eleison...

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/

[Stevepol]

56. I think people are only convinced of reality by miracles.

But what's a miracle?

Do you consider ESP a miracle? Have you experienced such a thing? Well first you have to monitor your thoughts and become aware of what you're thinking. You can't just assume that you are your thoughts. Put some separation there and then watch what happens to you during a day.

Do you consider reincarnation a miracle? There are tons and tons of evidence of reincarnation. Try Stevenson's scientific studies to begin with. If reincarnation is true, is that a miracle?

Do you consider a near instantaneous healing a miracle?

Do you consider what Edgar Cayce did to be miraculous?

[droidamus2]

57. Explanations

I recently finished reading a book titled "The Hiram Key" by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas. Though the book is mostly about the Freemasons there are a couple of chapters that address the Jesus story and at least some of the miracles. If you look at the Gnostic gospels, the Jewish religion and its' precepts at the time and the vernacular of the period many of the so called miracles can be explained away as misinterpretations and mistranslations rather than factual 'miracles'. The current churches and believers sometimes make the mistake of applying the way language is used today to texts that were written over a 1000 years ago and were based on different uses of the concepts discussed. For example, the Gnostics who were close to the Church of Jerusalem believed that people were 'spiritually dead' until they gained knowledge of God at which point they were 'resurrected'. Therefore when they spoke of resurrection they were not talking literally of rising from the dead but rather having a spiritual awakening.

[enki23]

58. of course

just like superman

[dattaswamI]

59. COMPARISON OF JESUS-KRISHNA PREACHINGS

The Divine preaching of Holy Jesus is the top most Gospel in the world and touches the climax of the truth. For example Holy Krishna says in Gita that one should withdraw himself from the family bonds slowly like a tortoise withdrawing its limbs (Kurmo ngaaneeva). The tradition of Datta is to cut the family bonds by the Sword of Knowledge as per Gita (Jnanaasi natmanah). But Holy Jesus says that one should hate these family bonds to become His disciple. Cutting the bond is Zero. Existing in the bond is Plus and hating the bond is Minus. Zero is near to Plus and Minus is very far.

So if you cut the bond it may form again. But if you hate the bond the bond will never be formed so that the bond with the Lord alone is eternal. See the preaching of Lord Jesus with impartial attitude and without conservatism. After all a diamond is diamond whether it is foreign diamond or Indian diamond. Thus Holy Jesus is the king of all the divine preachers. He is like the Sun from whom these divine sentences radiate like rays.

Holy Bible speaks about the ever-lasting fire and that the souls have no rebirth. Hindu scriptures say that the soul has rebirth. Both these can be convinced and co-related. The condemned souls enter the everlasting fire, which means that these souls take the births as animals, birds, worms etc, which are like the fire due to the continuous agony. The word “everlasting” means that once the soul enters into the cycle of these births the soul will never come back to the human birth. The rebirth as a human being as told in the Hindu scriptures can be again co-related with the Holy Bible.

Holy Jesus says that the Kingdom of God is extended into this world. The meaning of this is that whenever God comes in human form to stay with us (Immanuel), the disciples of the Lord will be staying in this divine Kingdom on the throwns equally with the Lord. This means the servants of the Lord will take rebirth as human beings and will be preaching here and they will be respected like God.

For Ex: The Holy Pope is given the status of God. The Holy Pope and other such top most Bishops and pious Fathers who are indulged in the propagation of the knowledge will get the status of God here itself in this world. Thus, the inner sense is the same in all the scriptures, which is spoken in different ways. The ways are different but the real essence is the same.

The aim of human life is to achieve the grace that is the love of God. Even if you earn more money you are not carrying it after death. Very little money is sufficient to eat and drink which the animals and the birds are also doing even without money. If the aim of the money is only eating, drinking and enjoying, you will be born as animal or bird or worm in the next birth. If your file is opened in the upper world you will not get definitely the human birth.

When you serve the Lord in this world when He comes in the human form then only you can get human birth without any enquiry in order to serve the Lord when the Lord reincarnates. You must recognize the Lord by His knowledge, because Veda says that knowledge is Brahman. Only miracles are not the signs since demons also performed miracles. Gita says that the Lord comes down in human form (Maanusheem tanu masritam).

Gita also says that it is very difficult to worship formless (Avyaktahi). Gita also says that if one worships the inert statue, he will be born as a stone (Bhutejya yanti Bhutani). So you must serve the Lord by doing practical service which consists of 1) Sacrifice of work 2) Sacrifice of fruit of work (money), which is also a form of work. The Sacrifice must be to the full extent. When a beggar gives one rupee that is greater than one lakh given by a multi lakhier because the beggar has sacrificed what ever he possessed. Holy Jesus appreciated one old lady who donated whatever she possessed, as the highest divine soul.

ANIL ANTONY
[e-mail]
http://www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

[bonito]

60. More?... All that?

Water,death,leppers,wine,bread,ears and days. well If you belive that i got some land here in florida. Kidding, what he said was,YOU are of god, and what is of God, is God. And thats the truth. good nite.