Are there 3 Abrahamic religions or are the Mormons #4?

[Deep13]

There are three main surviving Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Is the Church of L.D.S. a branch of Christianity or is it a fourth Abrahamic religion?

I see the cases for each point of view as follows.

LDS is #4 because while it believes in Jesus, it includes gospels beyond the cannonical Bible approved by Constantine at Nicea. Almost all modern Christians are Nicean orthodox Christians who believe in the pronouncements of the Nicean creed. LDS are outside of that.

LDS is part of Christianity because they believe in JC as Lord and savior. That is the definition of Christianity. While nearly all modern Christians are Niceans, that has not always been the case. Major heresies existed before Nicea and continued to exist as late as the 7th century. Plus there are a few surviving non-Nicean churches today.

[Goblinmonger]

1. There are 3

Mormons are Christian. To say otherwise is Nicean bigotry.

[Deep13]

2. I tend to agree...

...but if one is a Nicean (as the vast majority of non-LDS Christians are), then one is precluded from accepting non-Nicean Christians.

[Goblinmonger]

9. Most Christian sects

are precluded from accepting the other sects as the true Christians.

[Deep13]

10. That's true too.

Ever since 1054ce when the Pope excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople and in effect became the first Protestant.

[Schema Thing]

4. They've sort of done an end-run around Christianity though...

where their Abrahamic bona fides are concerned.

[Goblinmonger]

8. How so?

I mean, it isn't like they end-run the Jesus part which seems to be the keystone: hence the name "Christianity."

[Deep13]

11. One can say that about all of Christianity.

After all, Christianity is not merely Judaism + Christ. Christianity owes far more to classical philosophy which was known to Paul and other early churchmen than it does to Judaism.

[eShirl]

3. they're Christian Plus

lol

[zipplewrath]

5. 3.1

They're 3.1 Truth is, Christianity and Judaism are pretty tight. You could say that Islam is the only distinct religion in that it basically replaces the fundamental documents of the others. Christianity and LDS basically ADD texts. So you could have 1.0, 1.1, and 1.1.1

[Deep13]

13. Texturally, that's true...

...but I find the teachings of the churches to be much closer to Platonic idealism than to Judaism.

[Meshuga]

15. I disagree

I would even go as far as to say that Judaism is closer to Islam. Both Judaism and Islam are law oriented, the statement of faith of both Judaism and Islam are closer (the Shmah and Shahada) while the trinity is something foreign to these two religions.

How are Christinianity and Judaism tight? In what way?

[JerseygirlCT]

17. Though we Christians do (and should)

honor our Jewish grounding, I think you're right here. Looking at the religions in the way they are practiced, I think a Jew and a Muslim would likely find more in common than with Christianity. And yes, the idea of God and trinity... I can so see why that would leave both a Muslim and Jew scratching their respective heads.

Although I have to say, after being at a few Orthodox Christian services, I saw a great many ties to a Jewish service. You can really see the history there, and it's sort of cool.

[knitter4democracy]

20. Especially in Greek and Antiochian Orthodox churches.

I remember watching tv one night, and the scene took place in a synagogue while the chanter was practicing. I was able to sing along--we had the same psalm in the same tune, though I knew it in the Greek, as I was in our Greek Orthodox Church's choir at the time. Of the Christian churches, we're probably the closest, at least music and practice-wise.

[JerseygirlCT]

22. One of the services that really struck me

was Greek. And yes, the similarities were really something. It was pretty cool. Of course, I couldn't understand a word of it, lol.

(The worst with that was the funeral of a good friend. You really wanted to be able to follow along better then!)

[knitter4democracy]

38. Yes. That's part of why I'm not in a Greek church anymore.

It's beautiful, but I wanted to know what the heck I was singing in the choir and what the prayers actually meant without taking Greek classes (I'm Irish/German/Scot, so nowhere near Greek).

[JerseygirlCT]

40. That sounds like my background...

(although I think I'm missing the Scot, and have relatives in England, and their name - my mom's name - sounds awfully English... so there's something interesting going on there!)

My oldest friend studied Greek. But she was a philosophy major - beyond my intellectual capabilities, I think! And the friend whose dad we were remembering - I don't think he speaks much at all. His Yaya does, of course, but other than a few words and phrases... I guess since Vatican II came when I was still quite young, services not in English are a strange thing to me!

[Meshuga]

25. We all have different models of how we see the world

The trinity is the Christian way and relevant to Christians in how they see the world. Some use faith to explain science and to explain how things came about while others use it as a good formula that taught the values that turned them into the good people they are (so it is used as a formula to raise kids). It is also a way that provides them with a community and a source of emotional support during tough times. Or whatever. :-)

And yes, from what I have read from knitter4democracy posts, I see a lot of similarities as far as practice between Orthodox Christian services and Jewish services. And the non-orthodox Jewish services borrow a lot from the protestant Christian services like giving it more of a similar structure and having a sermon, for example.

[JerseygirlCT]

26. You know, I hadn't considered that

(your second paragraph). But yes, absolutely! Interesting...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. I and will disagree with you...Mormonism also has a very legalistic bent

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Isn't that what Meshuga said?

I'm confused now.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. whoops....editing error, thanks for the catch

[JerseygirlCT]

32. Whew

I was afraid I was really losing it, lol!

[Meshuga]

34. What did I say?

Or what did I not say? I am even more confused than you. :-)

[JerseygirlCT]

36. The professor has edited -

I just noticed that.

so nevermind me!

[Meshuga]

33. I was responding to "Christianity and Judaism are pretty tight"

I was not writing about Mormonism. Much less claiming it is not legalistic. In fact, I know nothing about Mormonism so I cannot make such claims and I cannot disagree (or agree) with you.

[Why Syzygy]

35. I think you're right

in that assessment. Want to also point out that there are some non-orthodox Christians, myself included, who do not believe the trinitarian doctrine is supported by scripture.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. I'm not sure I agree about replacing the fundamental documents

Islam, as far as I understand, holds a great respect for the scriptures of both other "people of the book". And acknowledges shared history - those biblical stories are found in Islam as well. There's respect for the prophets of the Old Testament, and there's respect for Jesus as a prophet - just not as God. And in many cases, there's a greater reverence for Mary than in some Christian denominations!

[laconicsax]

21. Is that accurate to say?

The claim that Judaism and Christianity are very close, is based on the pretense that Judaism=Old Testament and Christianity=Old+New Testament.

The focus of the Old Testament is the origin of Mosaic covenant, its content, and its application.
The New Testament says in several places that Mosaic covenant no longer applies. If the Mosaic covenant is not relevant to Christianity, then the importance of the Old Testament to Christianity is a series of myths and a smattering of prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled. As a result, Christianity (from the perspective of Judaism) is a separate, heretical religion. I'd hardly call that a case of two religions being "pretty tight."

[JerseygirlCT]

23. There are also places where the

mosaic law is upheld. I think it gets into a bit of interpretation there - was Jesus there to uphold the law, but refocus it on its original intent or to do something entirely new?

And of course, I couldn't answer that definitively, and I doubt many could!

But certainly, Jews don't see Christianity as some sort of fulfillment of their faith - although I'm surprised when I run into (OL) some who actually seem to think they ought to. Weird.

[Help_I_Live_In_Idaho]

6. They (LDS) are just a cult

Cult: Characteristics of the Mormon Church

1. Teaching that the doctrine of the Mormon Church is reality, the doctrine is to be accepted, not understood.

2. Reality is black and white, good and evil, spiritual world versus physical word. As an example, the Mormon Church cult is the only true church on the face of the earth.

3. Mormon Church members are taught to feel part of an elite corps. Following and accepting church doctrine insures members eternal life and a delightful life in heaven.

4. The Mormon Church promotes a sense of community with love and friendship, with special flattery and attention to new members

5. Mormon Church members are manipulated through fear and guilt, fear that if they don’t practice church doctrine faithfully, that they will fail to reach the highest levels of heaven, fear that if they don’t wear their garments, that they will not be protected by God.

6. Mormon Church members are taught that any problems that they may have are due to their own inadequacies. If they are having marital, financial or other difficult problems, it is because they are not following church doctrine, or are not praying enough. Guilt, fear and shame are present in the minds of Mormons, if they are not loyal, and fail to follow the church doctrine.

7. Unlike non-cult organizations, Mormon Church members find it difficult to leave, when they find out that church teachings are false, or otherwise become disenchanted with the church. Terrible things may happen to them, and their family if they leave. Those who do leave, often lose their family, friends and other social contacts within the Mormon community.

[Goblinmonger]

7. Um, take number 1-7,

remove the words "Mormon Church," replace with "Roman Catholic Church" or any number of other denominations, and your list is no less true.

Nice try, though.

[Deep13]

14. You just described all of Christianity...

...and probably Islam too. Apart from the fact that Jews do not actively recruit new members, it applies to them too.

[ZombieHorde]

12. Mormons = Christians

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. Mormons != Christian

Its a truly different faith with different basic tenets. CINO at best.

[bball3212]

42. Well that shows your ignorance

Christinaity=belief in and follow of Jesus Christ.

Mormons follow Christ, believe in the NT, etc.

[JerseygirlCT]

16. I think you have to depend on self-definitions with this

And Mormons see themselves as Christians.

Why would it particularly matter to anyone else, really?

[Deep13]

19. Well, it doesn't matter, really.

I just think it is interesting from a sociological point of view.

[JerseygirlCT]

24. It is interesting

But I'm always leery of those who would attempt to exclude based on their own definitions, you know?

I certainly don't agree with much of what the LDS church believes. Sounds pretty strange to me, and (this coming from someone raised R. Catholic!) awfully (in the most literal sense of the word) patriarchal.

But who am I to take on the power to declare them or anyone "Christian"? That's all.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. How about Bahai? Notionally follow on to Islam

[Deep13]

39. I did not know that. nt

[Occam Bandage]

37. I believe LDS is not part of Christianity, but I wouldn't call them a major Abrahamic faith, either,

any more than I would call the Baha'i faith that.

[Igel]

41. Stick with 3, or go with 5.

Christianity : Mormonism :: Islam : Ahmadiyya.

Both are add-ons, variations on a theme, widely rejected by most of the peope in the first member of each pair. Many Xians don't accept Mormons, many Muslims don't accept Ahmadis.

Baha'i has always struck me as something a bit different. Not so much Islam + a bit but as standing in a kind of superset relation to Islam.