That Darned Catholic Church!

[kanrok]

I'm a member of the Catholic Church.

A couple of things occurred to me today.

I was at an event this morning and I was talking with a friend of mine, who also happens to be Catholic. We were talking about a religious retreat when a third person entered our conversation and, apropos of nothing, asked us how we felt about priests molesting children.

I then came home and checked in here at DU.

I read two threads about Catholicism. Both were screeds against the Church.

It got me thinking.

I thought about people's attitude about my faith.

I thought about it when I attended Mass this evening.

I thought about it when I passed the table in the Narthex of the church laden with groceries for the local food pantry.

I thought about it when I saw two women who volunteered with me at the local homeless shelter.

I thought about it when I said hello to the family who sat in front of me...the same family that adopted a Chinese orphan.

I thought about it when I passed by my friend, the biochemist, who spends most of his free time assisting the local Boy Scouts.

I thought about it when I spied my good friend...the same one who has five kids and adopted a boy who was, until recently, his foster child; the son of a women who was addicted to crack.

I thought about it when I left church and saw a table set up by a church ministry devoted to assisting the poor. They were soliciting help for a 5k race they were planning.

I thought about it when I shook hands with the priest who gave a nice sermon. The same priest who teaches philosophy at the Seminary. A man in his 50's. A good man who sacrificed a lot for his faith.

I thought about all these people, all of whom do little things to help others, and seek no attention for their good deeds.

I thought about how what I observed plays itself out over and over and over at thousands of Catholic churches across this country every day of the year.

I thought about the fact that there are one billion Catholics on this planet, and the vast majority of them are just like the folks in my parish.

Than I said a little prayer of thanks to those who criticized my church.

Thank you all for strengthening my faith.

[emilyg]

1. I'm Catholic. Could not nor would I want to

live without my faith or my Church. God Bless.

[kanrok]

61. Ditto, Emily

God bless.

[EFerrari]

2. I'm not Catholic any more really but the Catholics I know

resemble the people in your parish. The backbone of the best of us.

:)

ETA: Hide Thread is a useful feature. I use it all the time.

[kanrok]

63. I agree E

LOL... I just can't use the "Hide Thread" feature.

I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.

[serrano2008]

3. Excellent post!

Thank you for writing this. Your experience reminded me of a post I read a few weeks ago on here where they were bashing religion and someone said something like "religion has never done anything good for anybody". I gave them my own unofficial "stupidest post of the week" award.

I'm not Catholic but I do go to a Catholic church with my wife and it is the best church I've ever been to. They aren't in my face about anything, aren't political and never mention social issues, and just focus on the true teachings of Jesus without twisting them all around.

[kanrok]

62. My pleasure Serrano

Thank you for the kind words.

[ReliantJ]

4. On top of all these threads

I almost broke lent and played Madden. On a serious note, I agree with you.

[MissB]

5. It is a shame that the good works of some Catholics

are swept away by the words and deeds of a few. Unfortunately it nearly always seems to be a higher up, so to speak, that does the unspeakable.

It has been that way for far too long. I don't know how you deal with the knowledge of what many of your religious leaders have done but I am glad you are able to keep your faith and continue helping. The upper eschelon of your religion could learn a lot from you.

[EFerrari]

8. Why would good work be "swept away" by the corruption of the powerful?

What an odd idea.

Corruption always seems to break out in the upper echelons of power, no matter what the group is. Every organization that has gotten any scrutiny has demonstrated the same phenomena. That's just human culture.

[MissB]

11. You thinking the Catholic church has a sparkling image?

Didn't think so. No matter how many good deeds the OP does- or other everyday Catholics do- the term "pedophile priests" will be linked to the Catholic church for many, many more decades.

[EFerrari]

13. And we know that image is what counts over everything else.

:)

[MissB]

16. As I've said above using different words

I find it sad that all of the OP's actions will never be able to wipe away the negative image that many have of the Catholic church.

If you're trying to read more into my comments than that, well, good luck.

[EFerrari]

22. Well, no. That isn't what you said initially. Maybe you should try

reading your comments.

Because there is a difference. There are Catholics all over the world right now working with the people and what they do is not "washed away". Those actions have concrete results: people are fed, children are cared for, single mothers are supported, a village gets clean water.

There is no corrupt asshole that can "wash" that away.

[MissB]

38. As I said, best of luck.

You seem upset by what I said, which was to applaud the OP.

[EFerrari]

47. Lol. No, you didn't upset me. But you did shift your statement.

What the leadership does, does not "wash away" the hard work everyday people do.

If anything, that hard work should be appreciated more because it's done in a less than friendly context at times.

[MissB]

49. Nope.

You're still trying to read something that isn't there. Since you're intent on doing just that, I'll not respond, as you can't seem to get it. :)

Have a lovely evening.

[pnwmom]

33. You think the U.S. has a sparkling image?

No matter how many good deeds the U.S. government may do, it will always be linked with Katrina, the Iraq war, Abu Graihb, etc.

We can't always control what our "leaders" do -- our religious leaders or our political leaders. No matter how much we'd like to.

[MissB]

39. Exactly.

[JerseygirlCT]

50. Well, except that the laity have absolutely no say

in who their leaders will be. Puts them in an untenable position in this, doesn't it?

To some unfortunate extent, even those of us who despised the last administration and its actions were involved (or told we were) in putting it in place.

The RCC's rigid system of governance - strictly top-down - puts a great many good people in a lousy position. And puts far too many self-righteous thugs in positions of authority. And I'm afraid, with the college of cardinals aptly stacked with ultra-conservatives by JPII, we'll be seeing the impact of even more of that type of person in the leadership.

Which is a terrible shame for the world's Catholics.

[rosesaylavee]

72. Exactly.

It's a top down organization... and may I add just one thing? Women are not involved in any level but the very humblest. I knew many wonderful RC people growing up who were my teachers - priests, nuns, lay people - who informed my outlook on life and gave me support and love.

Went thru RC schools all the way thru college but am now Unitarian Universalist because I do need that involvement in my church's decision making and theological direction. And my voice as a woman is as valued as my husband's. I don't have influence at the national level but in my congregation, my voice is heard and if there are enough of us of the same opinion, that change is made. We call our ministers to serve, we choose who our leaders are. They are not thrust upon us by a remote diocese office and beloved leaders are not trucked off to another parish after a few years to discourage attachments.

I feel sad for the state of the RC church today but I do separate the leadership of the church from it's followers. I have read several threads on here too condemning what the pope has said or what an arch bishop or bishop has said... but I haven't seen any threads talking about Roman Catholics in general. I think everyone is aware they have zilch say in what the leadership does or doesn't do.

[JerseygirlCT]

73. Too true

And that also made me nuts from a very young age. There were no good explanations then; there are none now. And some flowery language from JPII about how treasured women are and their *special* place... humbug. And did he really take so many women as such fools to be bought off with nonsense like that?

I'm an Episcopalian now (although I joke to my friends in a warning tone that I'm a liberal, unitarian, universalist Episcopalian!) And in many ways, what I believe hasn't really changed - it's all what I learned from my parents and from the many good people who taught me over the years.

But I do think the organization is diseased. And it can't be healed with the current structure. The changes will need to come from the laity and the brave clergy willing to buck the status quo (sounds like Jesus, to me). But I realized that any change will happen long after I'm gone, and in the meantime, I needed to worship and share worship in an atmosphere that didn't leave me angry and abused. And frankly, our democratic structure is just simply more understandable to me, and comfortable in an organic way.

[rosesaylavee]

74. Yep. I went from thinking of perhaps joining the convent

to becoming a UU. It's been an interesting journey!

[pnwmom]

31. How do Catholics deal with the knowledge of what some of our religious leaders

have done?

Same as we deal with the knowledge of what some of our political leaders have done.

You know . . . Katrina . . . Iraq . . . Abu Graib. . . Guantanamo . . .

We all have our own ways of dealing.

[MissB]

40. You are absolutely right.

And I said as much in my first comment. :hi:

[kanrok]

64. Thanks for the kind words, B

n/t

[patrice]

6. Catholic Worker House and Catholic Charities serve the MOST down-and-out Americans there are.

And they do it without evangelizing them. In our area, it was Catholic Worker House (and the American Friends' Service Committee, a.k.a. the Quakers) who lead the way, far ahead of anyone else, in public protest against the effects upon Iraqi children of the sanctions against Iraq and also began protesting Bush's War waaaaay before it became fashionable.

I am a fallen Catholic and I can repeat chapter-and-verse the case against religion in general, and the flaws of the RC church in specific, but, that said, I have noticed for quite some time now a distinctly vehement bias amongst those around here who are opposed to religion. I understand their criticism of organized religion, but the intensity of their hate for the RC church is suspicious, to say the least.

[kanrok]

65. Good points patrice

Many Catholics (me included) were four square against the war in Iraq from the beginning.

The "just war" doctrine did not allow for that atrocity.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

7. As a former Cahtolic I say....

the Catholic faith is a good one, as practiced by some truly incredible people I have known. Twelve years of Catholic school made me into the left-wing liberal I am today.

With that said.

The Vatican and the majority of the heirarchy are demons straight from Hell, AFAIAC.

They have been involved in some truly evil shit, shit Christ would be ashamed of. Some Catholics can't handle that hard truth. It is why I left the Catholic Church, yet continue to practice what I learned from the faith.

[kanrok]

60. Interestingly

Malachi Martin (a Jesuit exorcist) agrees with you.

He believed (he is now dead) that satanists infiltrated the Vatican at the highest levels.

[rug]

9. Good job, kanrok.

:thumbsup:

[kanrok]

66. Thanks Rug

n/t

[walkaway]

10. And yet two weeks before the 2008 presidential elections...

catholic priests all over America read a letter at Sunday mass telling their flocks not to vote for Barack Obama.

They preach intolerance toward homosexuals, call using condoms a sin and cover up their support of pedophiles and Nazi apologists.

My family volunteers at the local soup kitchen every Sunday. My Dad retired and is a full time volunteer at an area hospital. My neighbor was named volunteer of the year for the meals on wheels program he created and runs. We are all Atheists. People can give and be a good person without endorsing institutions they believe are morally corrupt.

If you are happy with the way your church behaves that's great, but you don't have to be a member to be a giving caring human being.

[kanrok]

58. There were some priests who did this

But not all.

I cannot speak for the majority, only those in my home parish.

To his credit, my Pastor went out of his way to emphasize that we could vote as we see fit.

Also, I agree that you do not have to be affiliated with a church to be a caring human being.

That is self evident.

Keep up the good work.

People need our help no matter what our religious background.

Anyone who volunteers in a soup kitchen is "good people" as far as I'm concerned.

[tanngrisnir3]

12. Did you think about it on a boat? Did you think about it with a goat?

[kanrok]

59. LOL

My OP is rather Seussian.

[Sandrine for you]

14. I know that in the catholic community there is very good people but

I just can't forget what they do to my people, and the intolerance they propage again today in USA and in my country. But yes not everything is black and white

From one of my post:

The Bitches of guard (Chiennes de garde) awarded the first prize of the " macho man of the year "

to the archbishop of Paris.

The "prize-winner" is Mgr. Vingt-Trois (sic) , who had asserted on November 6th, 2008 in the antenna of Radio Notre-Dame about the role of the women in the Roman Catholic Church: " the most difficult are to have women who are trained. The whole is not to have a skirt, it is to have something in the head "

More:

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/international/europe/200903/0...

[EFerrari]

19. The page you link to has been pulled. n/t

[Sandrine for you]

27. An another one:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iboEkJFk-lUN5y2ahcvpSH2XPWzA

[kanrok]

67. Sandrine

The Church is populated with "people"

People are fallible.

Priests are fallible.

The Pope is fallible.

Mistakes are made.

We are taught to hate the sin but love the sinner.

Unfortunately, some amongst us don't adhere to this credo.

[Sandrine for you]

78. An almost impossible task for most:

"We are taught to hate the sin but love the sinner."

And also, who define the sin and the sinner ? And why "hate" a sin ? and why a sin at all ?

I dont think It's just people that are fallible, I think It's at the core of the dogme and the institution­.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

15. Thank you so much for posting this. K&Red.

While I'm sure it might not get as many recs as that POS screed of excrement that was also on here from some bitter, ugly people who feel compelled to bash Catholics as much as possible, I'm glad to see this on here to counteract the broad basing.

[kanrok]

68. Thanks, Tommy

n/t

[Warpy]

17. What you're missing about the screeds

is that none of them attacked Catholics, especially not the ones you are talking about. Catholics, on the whole, are much more compassionate and sensible than their church would have everybody believe.

What they attacked was the church hierarchy, the political organization from the level of Bishop, upward, and the idiotic decisions they make about the lives of the female half of the human race.

The church hierarchy is the problem. Ordinary Catholics would be the solution if they weren't excluded from any and all decision making processes within the church by the very nature of rule by an infallible pope and his princes of the church.

(Why is the pope infallible? Because one a long time ago said so)

[EFerrari]

18. Yes, they did. Because congregants ARE the Church as much

as a few horrible @ssholes are. Go back and look at how broad that brush was.

I've never seen anything so offensive left on DU for so long. Can only imagine what our observant DU Catholics felt.

Disgusting in the extreme.

[robdogbucky]

20. Say what you will

but the church has a credibility problema and an image problem that is well-deserved IMHO:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13582

http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/mormons-and-catholics-upset-being-tar

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-20166037.html

Or my brother’s hesitation at being asked to pay money (about $15,000) for an annulment of a prior marriage in the church in order to have a priest marry him in his second marriage. Or my sister’s agreement to pay thousands of dollars to “buy” and annulment of a marriage of 27 years. She paid, he didn’t.

Or birth control? Or abortion?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7929712.stm

Like confession, seems like the church can find ways to sweep away all the nasty stuff when it is exigent to do so.

Personally, I have been done with hypocrites since I was about 14.

robdogbucky

[EFerrari]

23. "Say what you will" is not a response, but the avoidance of a response. n/t

[Fire1]

26. And that 'title!'

[EFerrari]

29. It should have been edited or locked much earlier.

Please note that sweeping statements about entire groups of fellow progressives are not categorically forbidden (except in the case of race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence, as mentioned above). However, they are often inflamatory and counterproductive and the moderators have broad discretion to remove such posts in the interests of keeping the peace on the message board.

ETA: My basic assumption is that the admins and mods have a much better grip than I do on what works to keep DU running as well as possible. I had trouble with that assumption last night, I guess.

[Fire1]

30. Clearly! But as I've said before, I guess it depends on who

you are.

[EFerrari]

32. DU admins and mods always seem to trend to free speech.

And, I admire them for that because it must get very difficult sometimes. :)

[Fire1]

35. Agree.

:)

[Solon]

34. The Church is extremely authoritarian, I wouldn't call the laity members of the church but more...

like subjects of the church. Even then, most ignore the Church's edicts in regards to choice or contraception in their own lives, yet have no lasting influence in the Church's positions themselves. The Catholic Church itself is run by assholes, the congregants, many of them, just simply ignore that.

[EFerrari]

36. The so called laity is the church as well and not subject unless they live in Vatican City, no?

And the people have always worked around leadership they disagreed with -- just as in any other group.

I'm going to be the last person to discount, minimize or brush aside the many horrible things the government of the Catholic Church has done or that it continues to do. But, as I remarked to you in another thread, judging Catholics by their leadership is like judging you and me by the torture president.

There are a handful of corrupt men heading up the Church. There are more that are complicit with them. But the vast majority, the millions, are not those people.

[Solon]

37. Of course not, but then again, who has power within the Church?

Its not the laity, hell, recently in my area, the (now former, moved to the Vatican) Archbishop almost excommunicated an entire congregation over a dispute in which he was going to sell off their church to pay for lawsuits that were settled for the child abuse scandal. Created an uproar in my heavily Catholic city(St. Louis), but also reaffirms who has the power within the church. You can say those millions carry the Catholic faith within them, but not the Church, that belongs to someone else, and always has.

[EFerrari]

41. The archbishop in my home town was the guy who put H8 together

and made it work.

I guess it depends what you mean by power. The official hierarchy has always been something of a mafia as far as I can tell. But the millions do real work. And that work is, in itself, very powerful.

[Solon]

43. True, but most of that work is usually done outside of the Church itself...

and/or in spite of the Church. Look at some of our most famous Catholic Politicians, Kerry and Kennedy come to mind, their values in public service do not coincide with the Church, and indeed has caused conflict with the Church.

[EFerrari]

44. Agree about Kerry and Kennedy but not about most of the work.

Most of the work that we probably will never hear about is organized in parishes. It's not sexy and it gets no press at all.

[Solon]

46. Most of that work is usually noncontroversial within the Church...

usually charity work of one sort or another, and that's good, I'm not diminishing that. However, if a parish invites an open and affirming priest into their church, watch out, the Archdiocese will hit you with a ton of bricks. There are set limits as to what parishes can do, and one thing they can't do is influence the Church to change to a more moderate or tolerant outlook.

[JerseygirlCT]

52. Growing up, I heard many times

well, this is not a democracy, you know.

And even as a child, that offended me deeply. It's not. But I think it should be. I mean, truly, can you imagine Jesus, dressed in Prada shoes and brocade, hiding out in a palace in a city-state in Rome? I can't.

He'd be miles away at the soup kitchen.

[JerseygirlCT]

51. But don't you see that the reason such men are in a position

to do such harm is that there is a structural problem with the RCC? I think that's the thing. The laity can (and to my thinking, ought) to continue to ignore the hateful things said and done at the top, but organized the way the church is, they are captive.

The whole idea of top-down authority, domination of the masses - it's troubled me from a very early age in one form or another as I grew up Catholic (12 years of Catholic schooling, as well). I simply could not understand why good and loving people, living their faith in their everyday actions, should or would concede to the leadership of power and misogyny corrupted men.

It's absolutely a structure that was bestowed on the church by politics and power. I think it leads people away from faith, rather than toward it. I guess I'm just a democrat (small d in this case) at heart.

[EFerrari]

69. I've made no comment whatsoever on what I think about

the structure of the Church.

[rug]

21. Nope, not anti-Catholic at all.

"Jesus Hussein Christ, where the fuck were you and your self-righteous ilk when innocents were being tortured and slain in Iraq and Afghanistan – and all over the world? Oh, that’s right – you were busy covering-up the crimes of Holy Mother-Fucker The Church. Sins of Omission and Commission – a tidy little package of immorality that could be swept from the global soul with a novena murmured in a back pew – accompanied by a substantial financial contribution, just to make true contrition “official” and all."

[Warpy]

24. Sounds like the hierarchy to me

After all, it wasn't the victims and their parents who covered it up, it was the Bishops and Cardinals.

[rug]

25. Yes, it's a finely nuanced piece of writing.

[rtassi]

28. Attention Choir ... Nance is outraged AGAIN .. you may pay tribute now ...

[emilyg]

54. You attack my Church - you attack me.

[kanrok]

57. Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Warpy

I agree that there are those in the hierarchy of the Church with some interpretations of the Bible that are faulty.

The Church is made up of people.

People are fallible.

The Pope is fallible.

You must define Palpal infallibility.

It is a much narrower concept that you might believe.

Popes are not without sin.

Read up on "Papal Infallibility", I think you would be surprised about what you'll find.

[Why Syzygy]

42. There are good people who do good works.

That's probably why they joined the (C)hurch at all. I beg to differ with an opinion that the (C)hurch makes them good.

[EFerrari]

45. An opinion not forwarded in the OP. n/t

[Why Syzygy]

56. "That Darned Catholic Church"...

doesn't imply that very thing?

[EFerrari]

70. No, it doesn't. The OP doesn't say you must be Catholic

in order to be a good person.

[Why Syzygy]

71. Did she mention any non-Catholics

who are "good people"? Or any Catholics who do bad things?

Didn't think so.

[phantom power]

48. The Catholic Church is overdue for a good Schism.

Or, better yet, for everybody to realize that there is no god. But I'd settle for a Schism. I'm not greedy.

[readmoreoften]

53. Not to mention the lesbian who died alone on her death bed because of your church.

I do appreciate the work of Catholic liberation theologists, though. Other then them, the church deserves criticism.

[K8-EEE]

55. Ex-Catholic Here!

Hey there's good and bad people in every religion.

Whatever! As somebody who's a happy born-again agnostic, I get a little annoyed when people brag about Catholicism. Been there, done that for 44 years, it doesn't really impress me too much but if it makes you happy, then rock on. People diss agnostics "secularists" or whatever they call us on Faux all the time, I could care less.

[ZombieHorde]

75. You are proud to be a member of an organization which spends lots and lots of money

keeping known child molesters on the streets. If you are able to step back and take a look from an outsider's perspective, you will see how weird that seems.

Thank you all for strengthening my faith.


What does this mean?

You sorta believed in God before, but now that some people have mentioned the child rapes, your belief in God has increased?

[Marrah_G]

76. I grew up in the Catholic Church is Mass

I think there are some very positive aspects to the local churches.

Any Catholic who cannot understand the outrage towards a group who would throw out the mother for trying to save the life of her child yet embrace the Rapist who violates the child is frankly brain-washed beyond comprehension.

Any Catholic who does not look at the position of honor held by Cardinal Law at the Vatican and cringe has indeed lost all rational perspective.

I respect you for staying strong in your faith, but try not to do it with blinders on.

There is a reason Massachusetts has gone from 50% Catholic to 36% and falling. Those reasons are sitting in Italy on golden thrones wearing Prada shoes.

[JerseygirlCT]

79. You're probably right about that

I think some people underestimate the deep harm those actions did - not just to those children, but to the entire community.

[Marrah_G]

83. And the effect it continues to have.

Those who were victims in some cases become the victimizers or are so deeply effected by it all that their lives are never what they could have been.

[olegramps]

77. The major problem has and will continue to be that it is a hierarchy.

The laity have absolutely no authority. The attempt to bring about a more democratic structure was one of the major achievements of Vatican II. The sharing of authority with the bishops called collegiality. This vision of the church that was promoted by John XXIII was a major accomplishment that was totally destroyed by Paul VI when he reserved the issues of celibacy and contraception to be determined by the Vatican. It was totally disregarded by John Paul II who was determined to rule with the iron hand of an absolute monarch.

Collegiality would have been the first step that could have led to the democratization of the church with the eventual inclusion of the laity in the governance of the church. I can guarantee that if the laity would have been included in the decision making councils the pedophilia scandal would have never been allowed to develop. Authoritarian power structures always result in secrecy and conspiracies that are driven by their determination to maintain their absolute authority.

The structure of the church provides the opportunity for abuse of power. This has been repeated time after time just as every secular monarchy has also done. What is required is for the laity to demand that they be included in all decision making as equals. Until that happens nothing will change. Remember that the major reason for the church not changing its position on birth control, even when the special commission appointed by John XXIII recommended change, was that those in control feared that it would lead to loss of the credibility of the papacy. Unfortunately, most Catholics don't even know of the existence of this commission. John Paul II, who was an archbishop at the time, was appointed to this commission but boycotted it and was writing what became the encyclical reaffirming the church's condemnation of contraception. Anyone who is informed about John Paul II knows that he was always an arch-conservative who was closely tied to the radial Opus Dei cult. His intent, along with those who he appointed to positions of power, was to squash the democratic concepts that had been advanced by Vatican II. They smothered that baby in its infancy.

[JerseygirlCT]

80. I think that's so, too.

And such rigidity and so much concentrated power is almost certain to result in corruption.

[DemBones DemBones]

81. Thank you for posting this. Remember that

Jesus said we would be hated as He was. Catholics get it the worst but all Christians are slammed here. We have something they don't have and it bugs them no end.

[Why Syzygy]

82. Amazing, isn't it,

how vocal and hostile some must be about something "fictitious"?
It goes way beyond a stated resistance to social applications.