Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Suppose a person were to honestly and confidentially say to you,

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 12:48 AM
Original message
Poll question: Suppose a person were to honestly and confidentially say to you,
Edited on Thu Jan-15-09 12:50 AM by Occam Bandage
"I've wanted to kill myself for quite a while now, but I can't, because it's a mortal sin and I would go to Hell, and the thought of Hell torments me." (This has happened to me.)

If you could press a magic button and strip that person of their belief in Hell, would you? Whether you choose to press the button or not, I am assuming that you will continue to do whatever you believe is appropriate to ensure this person gets appropriate interventionary treatment as quickly as possible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Did their suicidal thoughts arise of guilt, hopelessness, emotional pain, or what?
Edited on Thu Jan-15-09 01:00 AM by greyl
Wondering if their religious beliefs are the cause of their suicidal notions, assuming they're being honest with you.

edit: To answer, no, talking to them about their belief in Hell wouldn't nearly be a first priority.
edit 2: To answer as if I actually read your OP for comprehension, no. What benefit would there be? If they got help for the suicidal tendencies, maybe pressing the Magic Button would be unnecessary.
Kind of a convoluted hypothetical situation there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. You have no further knowledge of their emotional state,
and are unaware of any particular cause of their suicidal thoughts. It's assumed they're being entirely honest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I'd say "No". I'd rather deal with their suicidal thoughts.
I think those have more power over a person, ultimately, and are more immediate than beliefs about what happens upon death.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. No
As tempting as it might be, I would not want to have that much power over anyone's belief system.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. If their sucidal feelings came from believing in an angry, shallow,
and vindictive god, then I would press that button; but otherwise no, I wouldn't. I voted no.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. That's what I'm thinking too.
It may be exposure to religious insanity that caused the whole problem in the first place. Then again, it's also possible that emotionally fragile people are attracted to religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
5. I'm not sure.
I would have to know more about their state of mind to be able to answer this question definitively. As of what I have to go on right now, I would say I cannot answer. I would, however, try to get them help for the suicidal feelings anyhow. I know what those are like and they are unfathomable to live with. Once they were emotionally stable again and not feeling those feelings, I would definitely argue about them about Hell...and point out that much of Earth is like the Biblical description of Bell as of right now.

It's a good question, but I honestly don't know how else to answer, except get them help first and argue about Hell later.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. Neither.
I would be a lot less concerned with the person's religious beliefs than with their psychic distress. Let them continue to believe in Hell if it keeps them alive.

Although...if religion is a major factor in their emotional problems that would throw a different light on the situation. Either way it's not my place to dictate what someone else believes.

Very interesting question you have posed here, Occam!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
9. No, I'd inquire as to their vitamin intake.
And ask if they'd had their thyroid checked. And how much time they'd been spending indoors.

Damnation has nothing to do with depression.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
10. No (but not for the reason you would suspect)
If there were such a button, I would not use it. I would not use it, but not because I would be afraid that person would kill themselves. Rather, I would not use it because I think something like that would run against what I see as human rights. A big part of human rights is autonomy, and a sub-set of that is that people should be free to believe or disbelieve as they wish (so long as no one else's rights are infringed upon). Having a button where you could just change people's beliefs at-will, without any consideration to their own rights or wishes, would be a violation of human rights IMO. That doesn't mean that you can't debate or argue, though, because at the end of the day it is still up to them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. It doesn't matter
People with mental illness are not going to change their behavior or attitudes just because you negate one of their beliefs.

They are mentally ill. They are going to behave as mentally ill people do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
12. Do you assume that there necessarily is "appropriate interventionary treatment"?
Edited on Thu Jan-15-09 10:00 AM by Jim__
My thought is that this may be a genuine dilemma for the person.

Assume the person is terminally ill with little enjoyment left in life and is concerned that the cost of their illness is draining their family's funds. If the person believes in hell, then this is probably not the time to try to convince them (or recommend counselling to convince them) that there is no afterlife. Their concern about their family's finances may well be legitimate. There may be no good resolution to their problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Well, it's all down to the word "appropriate."
In the hypothetical you provided, I think a conversation with a religious teacher sympathetic to right-to-die issues might be all the "interventionary treatment" that I would find "appropriate," though that is a slightly awkward reading of "intervention."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Given the premise that she believes killing herself is a mortal sin ...
Edited on Thu Jan-15-09 12:36 PM by Jim__
... then, I would consider any religious teacher that would advise her that killing herself was alright to be as inappropriate as getting her counselling that claimed there is no afterlife. Essentially, at an extremely critical time of her life, you are telling her that her lifelong beliefs are not valid. She already has enough to deal with. I certainly wouldn't recommend that counselling.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
13. If I believed in a universe with an omnipotent god who allows for a hell in it
I'd want to kill myself too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
14. Depends on how well I know them.
If I really wanted to help the person, then YES,
I would push the button and be there to continue
to counsel them as they begin to accept reality.

If I didn't want to get involved, then I wouldn't
even try to get to the bottom of their problems,
and they could rationalize away their actions in
whatever way works for them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
17. If they're suicidal, they're already in hell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. I know that I ended up in that state when the religious and emotional abuse
from my family trying to force me back into their fundamentalist beliefs simply became too much for me to deal with. you might be better off trying to get the person out of whatever hellish religion he has been forced into.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-09 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. Your situation intrigues me. I wonder how a person in that situation would respond to an offer of
murder.

If you told the person that you would be willing to kill them in some painless way so that they wouldn't go to hell but still have their wish, what would they say? Would they run away from you, or would they take you up on your offer.

Just a thought.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-09 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
20. No, because it's not my place to be rearranging other people's minds
and stripping them of beliefs simply because I don't agree with/approve of them. It's a totalitarian mindset to think that's acceptable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon May 06th 2024, 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC