Questions about death...

[SidneyCarton]

Or, what is your position on life after death?

If you believe in it, what does it consist in for you?

If not, how do you concieve of death?

In either case, does this conception give you comfort and why?

[MineralMan]

1. As an atheist, I believe that the individual ceases to exist

upon death. The individual identity exists only during the life of the individual.

Comfort? I don't know about that. Certainly I don't wish to die, at least at this point in my life. When I do, however, it will not affect me beyond that point, since there will be no me.

My wife has instructions to cremate my body and scatter the ashes into the Mississippi River off the Wabasha St. Bridge in Saint Paul, then to throw a party for those who enjoyed my presence during life.

Other than that I don't think about it that much. Life is for the living. I happen to be in that state at the moment, so I'm living it.

[SidneyCarton]

2. Thank you for sharing.

[T Wolf]

3. Anyone who has held a loved oned, whether human or other animal, as they died,

can attest to the fact that something changes. The "life-force" or whatever you want to call the cohesion that is in a living (even unconscious) body simply slips way. What is left is not the creature that was in your arms.

I can see why many have interpreted that force to be a soul or other manifestation. But, for me, it is purely a biological reality.

Thus, when I die, I do not anticipate anything.

The one thing I did get from my Jewish upbringing is the Jewish view of what happens after.

"They still live on earth in the acts of good they performed and the hearts of those who cherish their memory."

Works for me.

[SidneyCarton]

5. Our works and our deeds to indeed persist after we pass.

I appriciate your observations on the "life force" as well, there is something different between a living being and the cold meat they leave behind, whatever we interpret it as it is distinct.

[Meshuga]

27. Amen!

And it is a heeb here replying. The memory of the person is what is left.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. There is some sort of life after death

I know this because of personal experiences I have had. Some people die and don't realize they are dead--and others share the feeling of great joy. There is no physical form, but the emotional and mental parts of a person's being continue. I think that the after death experience is different for each person, and is partially predicated upon their own beliefs on the subject.

[SidneyCarton]

6. Very interesting.

Do these experiences involve the presence of those who have passed on?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. yes,

but more than that as well. I feel the experiences themselves are sacred and don't go into details about them.

[SidneyCarton]

15. Of course, I understand.

[108blessings]

7. I believe that our consciousness survives death

I think that the body is merely a set of clothes which we remove (or are stripped from us!)at the moment of transition. I do not feel that we are our bodies.

Think about this: when you go to a wake and see a loved one lying there, it just isn't the same. There is a sense of revulsion at the sight of a corpse. Hey, even the term "corpse" shows that we distinguish between Uncle Harry and his expired form.

Does it bring me comfort? Of course. But one has to really think about these things and feel them inside before being comforted by the idea. It's not yet another intellectual exercise.

[ZombieHorde]

11. "There is a sense of revulsion at the sight of a corpse."

Speak for yourself.

[108blessings]

12. Will do...

(:scared: )

[damntexdem]

9. There's no way to know.

At least before death -- and if there is no life after, then there's no knowing then, either.

Still, I like Blood, Sweat & Tears' "I'll never know by living, only my dying will tell."

[bain_sidhe]

13. Laura Nyro, actually

She wrote "And When I Die"

And when I die and when I'm dead, dead and gone,
there'll be one child born and a world to carry on, to carry on.

I'm not scared of dying and I don't really care.
If it's peace you find in dying, well, then let the time be near.
If it's peace you find in dying, when dying time is here,
just bundle up my coffin cause it's cold way down there,
I hear that's it's cold way down there, yeah, crazy cold way down there.

And when I die and when I'm gone,
there'll be one child born and a world to carry on, to carry on.

My troubles are many, they're as deep as a well.
I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell.
Swear there ain't no heaven and pray there ain't no hell,
but I'll never know by living, only my dying will tell,
only my dying will tell, yeah, only my dying will tell.

And when I die and when I'm gone,
there'll be one child born and a world to carry on, to carry on.
Give me my freedom for as long as I be. All I ask of living is to have no chains on me.
All I ask of living is to have no chains on me,
and all I ask of dying is to go naturally, only want to go naturally.

Don't want to go by the devil, don't want to go by the demon,
don't want to go by Satan, don't want to die uneasy, just let me go naturally.

And when I die and when I'm gone, there'll be one child born, there'll be one child born.
When I die, there'll be one child born. When I die, there'll be one child born.
When I die, there'll be one child born. When I die, there'll be one child born.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. And sad to say, she died a few years ago

Gifted songwriter, whose songs were recorded by The Fifth Dimension, Blood Sweat and Tears, Barbara Streisand, and Three Dog Night, and those are only the ones I know about.

[cosmik debris]

10. I've seen no evidence to indicate that there is life after death.

And I don't see any reason to believe things for which there is no evidence.

I find no comfort in that because I find no discomfort in the opposite position.

[patrice]

14. Life and Death are words that we made up.

Things change from one thing to another; it's all part of an event that, even without our human projections, is wonderous in itself.

Om namah, Shivayah!

[cyborg_jim]

16. A broken window is merely a hole where the rain may come through

[SidneyCarton]

17. Yes, and a toilet is merely a chair...

On which you must sit without pants in order for it to be effective.

[cyborg_jim]

21. Which makes you simple a conduit whereby food may pass into the sewage system

[SidneyCarton]

22. Well played sir, well played.

[cyborg_jim]

23. Well the serious point is that from alternate perspectives your role in existence is very different

And those include roles where your "conscious existence" persisting is just irrelevant.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

18. We no longer exist once we die

The electrical charges in our brain stop pulsing, our heart stops, and our consciousness disappears. Then, bacteria starts to feed on the body, converting the tissue to energy to feed the endless evolution of lower life forms.

My views don't bring me any comfort, but pretending to believe something ridiculous would make me even less comfortable.

[COStorm]

25. If you truly believe...

there is no afterlife. Then why are you civil? Why do you obey laws? Why not steal everything you want? Why not rape, pillage, and plunder. If this is all you have...then it's totally over...why are you not an animal? Why do you give a rats butt about the comfort of any living thing?

When you die you're done...who cares if the world blows up the day after....you won't be here....just the abyss of non-existence.

Or is it that, when you say you don't believe...what you're really saying is, you don't believe the crap modern religions are trying to feed you...but the thought that there just might be something waiting beyond the veil of death keeps you in line?

[dmallind]

30. Oh deary me.....

1)Because we have evolved a system of morality which tended to increase group cohesion and success. It comes form being soft and weak and slow compared to our natural predators and prey, so that we succeeded only by living gregariously. Steal from the best hunter and he doesn't share meat. Rape the toolmaker's daughter and who gets you new spearheads?

2)Because sane and rational people can tell that their life would be better on the whole by not doing these things. They will not earn the distrust and emnity of their fellow society members, they will not risk imprisonment or death or unedning conflict and fear of reprisal.

3) Because we are taught and reinforced by a system of rewards and punishments that such behavior is unacceptable, and just like any other animal we respond to instruction and reinforcement.

4)No - not believing means not believing.

[SidneyCarton]

33. Not everyone defines morality in the same way.

I had a thread in which this was discussed, and several atheists chimed in with their particular views on the subject, it made for very interesting discussion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=191629&mesg_id=191629

You and I may not agree with why people choose to do the right thing. We may find their reasoning to be faulty or even incomprehensible. However, I for one am just grateful that they do it. There are plenty of people with a perfectly rational moral code in my eyes who do not live up to it at all.

COStorm, if you haven't guessed it yet, we Mormons aren't terribly popular on DU. Unless you want every encounter on this board (particularly the ones in the R/T forum, which is notorious for this) to degenerate into a flame war that leads to your eventual banning, tread a little lighter.

[cyborg_jim]

34. If you believe that you will be rewarded enternally for killing someone will you do it?

Because some people will and have.

Actions have consequences. If I am not civil I will face consequences for that. If I don't obey laws I will face consequences for that. If I steal everything I want I will face consequences for that. If I rape, pillage and plunder I will face consequences for that.

If I believe that the consequences for those actions are to be rewarded I will perform them. If I believe that the consequences for those actions is that I will be punished I will avoid them. Those consequences can be both external and internal.

Belief in an afterlife is largely irrelevant.

[SidneyCarton]

35. And yet there are some who manage to avoid the external consequences of misbehavior

While at the same time effectively containing any internal consequences such as guilt, etc. What justice awaits the cunning and effective sociopath? Are they then to be envied then, for being able to do evil and get away with it?

Or are there internal consequences there that we do not see?

[cyborg_jim]

36. None

What justice awaits the cunning and effective sociopath?

Sorry if that upsets you but the world is not a perfect place. Creating a supernatural system where there is always a consequence may please you but it likely won't change the actions of someone who doesn't agree with you and who perhaps doesn't care about consequences in the same way you do.

Besides - what difference does it make to you in your system of afterlife what anyone does in this life? After all you believe that things will basically turn out alright for you eternally. What does it really matter what happens to anyone else in the 70 year - a piffling length of time - sojourn you have in this reality? Sure, you might say, "I'd be cool with it if you could get to have a cool afterlife with me," but if they refuse to do what's necessary now, hey, their problem right?

[Crunchy Frog]

37. Wow, you mean you would do all those things if the threat of eternal punishment

wasn't hanging over your head? Just the fact that you have those inclinations makes you a person that I would want to steer clear of.

Despite my own lack of any clear belief in an afterlife, I don't seem to have the impulses and inclinations that you describe.

[cosmik debris]

38. Isn't that amazing!

Some theists seem to start with NO ethical or moral underpinnings and rely solely on their theology to provide that.

[moobu2]

39. I don’t need the promise of punishment or rewards for me to know how to behave.

And I‘m a hardcore atheist with not the slightest doubts about it.

Weird huh?

It’s evolution + social conditioning that determines your moral and ethical inclinations.

[Sandrine for you]

42. For the Same reason than the Wolf

The wolf do not rape, do no pillage and plunder.

We are an animal, and like other social animal: we have empathy (except Dick and Bush) and sense of the respect of our community, and his hierarchy.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

43. Oh my, I leave for a week and look what goodies I come back to!

I believe that the other responses responded more cogently than I could have, but I just wanted to thank you for giving me a good laugh!

And yep, it will by an "abyss of non-existence", but I'll be gone so why should I care? I care, because even though I might be gone, I'm leaving the world to my children, my children's children, and other human beings. That's better than assuming that the God of the Bible is going to destroy the earth for its wickedness, so why should I give a shit about anything? I'm not hopeful that you will understand the hypocrisy of your beliefs or their consequences.

But, LOL - you are a funny guy!

[rrneck]

19. Yes, I believe

there is life after death. I have no rational basis for that belief. Nor is there any hope of any evidence for that state of existence. And I probably wouldn't recognize me after I get there. The uiverse doesn't waste anything, even if we don't know what it's for. I guess there is comfort in knowing that I am part of something that I will never fully understand.

[Igel]

20. Upon death, you die.

No thoughts, no awareness, no consciousness. no merger with anything but what you're buried in or scattered on.

But I hope for a resurrection of the dead.

[frogmarch]

26. When I was

very young - I think I was 6 or 7 - and thought about death, I liked to imagine a light bulb representing the life force, shining on a big sheet of paper that had tiny holes poked in it. The holes represented living things (all plants and all animals - even worms and bugs). With each new life, a new hole appeared, and the light shone out through it. When something died, the light no longer shone through that particular hole, but the same light kept shining through the other holes. I liked believing that after I died, the same life force that had shone through me would still be shining out through other living things, and that the process would go on till the light burned out at the end of the world, when the sun exploded. I was already an atheist when I cooked all this up in my head, but I was having trouble imagining the world without me in it, and I liked the idea that after I died, the life force, my life force, would keep on shining, and that the "I" in me would keep on living as other "I"s, even though each would perceive itself to be a separate entity, apart from the others - just as this "I" had.

I was a child. Now I think nothing of the kind. When things die, poof! that's it. There's nothing. It's not exactly a happy thought, but I'm okay with it.

[moobu2]

28. Dying is like deep dreamless sleeping

except you never wake up, you don’t have a functioning nervous system after death, so how could you later become conscious? It’s a little unsettling to think about so I wouldn’t dwell on it that much.

[joshcryer]

64. Cryonics.

;)

[dmallind]

29. Well it's one of those 99.999999% things

Since there is no verifiable objective test currently possible, we cannot be sure.

However for every single definition of life for which we DO have objective tests, there is a purely physical mechanism which detremines life, and therefore determines death. So as far as we know, only electrochemical processes in the brain generate thoughts and feelings and emotions, and as far as we know they cease with biological death.

So to me the likelihood of life or any sensation or thought whatsoever after biological death is exactly akin to the likelihood of 18' tall tripedal bright blue creatures who communicate only in iambic pentameter sung in falsetto while bouncing on pogo sticks. There is no reason to believe such a thing exists, and it's incredibly unlikely that such a fanciful notion might exist, but no way to prove that it doesn't.

And by the way no need or reason to TRY to prove that it doesn't. The onus is on the person who makes an assertion. "I Don't believe you until you prove it" is not an assertion.

[SidneyCarton]

31. How about quadrupedal purple creatures who communicate via gregorian chant?

Oh, wait, I saw them while on medication...

[dmallind]

32. Them too! NT

[iris27]

40. I would like to believe in life after death, but most evidence suggests

otherwise.

It would be a very comforting notion to think I have not merely a handful of decades left to share with my husband, but the eternity I was taught I'd have growing up in a Christian home. I still find analogies that suggest an immortal soul compelling. Not surprising - realizing one's own mortality is the tradeoff for being self-aware, and attempting to deal with the discomfort that brings is likely the reason most religions were created.


However, if you spend time around anyone with damaged brain function (whether through sudden injury, major stroke, etc.), it rapidly becomes obvious that the personality we consider a person's "soul" is the result of complex biological realities. There's a reason they call Alzheimer's "the long funeral" -- many of an afflicted person's loved ones end up feeling like "Grandma Betty" really ceased to exist long before her physical death.


I still entertain fanciful notions from time to time, of things like reincarnation where groups of souls "travel" together, or of life continuing on a different dimension. But I hold no real hope in them.

[Strong Atheist]

41. When you die,

brain activity ceases.

Game over.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

44. Succinct!

[child of the one]

45. The PHYSICAL game is over; IMO, we are more than that...

And it is not measurable; quantifiable. That is what separates it from the world of the flesh!:bounce:

[laconicsax]

46. What do you base that on?

[child of the one]

49. My IQ

I am not traditionally logical, but there are some things that just make sense when you examine them closely. And all the spiritual traditions support the idea of something beyond this bluegreen orb. People who were not nutso, yet had wondrous visions. Now those were saintly types, but think of all the everyday folks who are at their loved ones' death beds and these people commonly will have a vision of "dead" relatives coming to them to inform them that they are about to go to the Other Side. And sure enough, they croak shortly thereafter...:bounce:

[cyborg_jim]

57. That's just not true - plenty of spirtual traditions lack an afterlife

Plus there are any number of known substances that can induce all kinds of visions and other experiences that have been labeled spirtual - be they fly agaric or ergot, lotus etc... it's not particularly surprising to me that altering consciousness with chemicals just happens to be a big part of a lot of spiritual traditions.

Plus - people on their death beds dying? Say it ain't so...

[cosmik debris]

47. If it has no measurable or quantifiable interaction

With the physical, How do you know?

Why and how is it relevant?

[child of the one]

50. Hey, I didn't invent the soul; I just have one...Luckily for me

I don't need to examine everything under a microscope and classify or tag it to make it exist!:bounce:

[cosmik debris]

53. But why is it relevant.?

It can't affect us in a measurable way so why does it matter?

[child of the one]

55. You just need to get off the need for measuring things...Of course it affects us!

Does the wind affect you if you cannot see it or hold it in your hands? It still affects things around it. The nature of one's soul affects everyone with whom s/he comes in contact!

I was watching "Oprah" recently (insert snide remark here) and she had on some guy who was much like you, in terms of how he viewed life. His plane was crashing and he saw all these fellow passengers' auras and some of them were black or otherwise indicative of negativity and his feeling was that if he survived, he wanted to become like those who had the brilliant colors he saw. Even though he knew nothing of energy fields and the like, he instinctively knew what was good and bad in these energies!

[cosmik debris]

56. So, how did you gain this knowledge

since there is no empirical basis for it?

[child of the one]

58. I had negative experiences in life and began studying various ideas

And not all were/are part of the organized system, either! Krishnamurti was one of the first; he challenged the notions that we accept automatically about why were are here and what the goal of life is.

One thing that Krishnamurti said is that conclusions are death. I couldn't agree more! The idea that we should ever shut our mind and stop inquiring/pondering is like fossilizing. I question myself all the time. But I just KNOW that this is not where it ends. And when you give up the need to see it with your five senses, only then can you begin the quest for the Self.

[cyborg_jim]

59. Mathematics and science is the extension that allows knowledge to transcend our "five" senses

The belief that simply debating in isolation can lead to knowledge is ancient and outmoded.

[child of the one]

60. There is mathmatics in music and science has amazing Intelligence

But it's not enough to simply cling to worldly studies in trying to understand the Beyond. All I hope for you and others like you is that while you enjoy exploring math and science, that you keep yourself open to That which cannot be named.

(BTW, numerology is cewl! I believe that numbers have vibrations:))

[cosmik debris]

61. How much longer will you be with us?

You've been TS a dozen times.

How long will it take this time?

[cyborg_jim]

62. Meaningless

keep yourself open to That which cannot be named.

[cosmik debris]

63. That poster bit the big one

A one way trip to the Marble Orchard.

[Strong Atheist]

48. Welcome toDU! nt.

[child of the one]

51. Thank you...I really appreciate an atheist who can welcome someone like moi! N/T

:loveya:

[Strong Atheist]

52. Well, I do my best most of the time to try to be civil, open mined,

and even handed. Of course, i am not perfect, and occasional fail ...

[child of the one]

54. 'Civil' is a great way to put it...It's a pleasure to interact with people

who can state views which may oppose mine, yet still be respectful.

[pokerfan]

65. You want to know what happens after death?

Go look at some dead things.

Honestly, it's just that simple.

Death means the end of consciousness which means that you won't be aware of your own death.

"Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist." -Epicurus (about 23 centuries ago)

We may cease but the living, breathing part of the cosmos continues. There is no thought without consciousness and there is no consciousness without life so in a way it's a kind of reincarnation, I suppose. But it's a reincarnation in the same way that every other human being on this planet is also presently incarnate.

To answer your question, we must first define mind. But that is a very slippery thing for all minds touch each other, even more so today via electronics. What really is you? Where does "you" end and the rest of the world begin?

You are just one small twig on a branch on a limb of a mighty oak. We are all part of a living thing. And that living, thinking thing will endure barring catastrophe until the end of the universe.

Everything else is just ego.

That's what I think anyway.