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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:12 PM
Original message
Asked before and need a bit more detail.
I asked about Jesus and his comments on homosexuality awhile back and got excellent cites with chapter and verse.

Now I need the same for the Old Testament. Did Jesus come to replace the OT teachings or to expand on them? In other words, is the OT still valid after Jesus' arrival? Cites would be very good. Particularly cites from Jesus himself.

DU is the BEST. What a resource and brain trust.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Uh, I don't recall that Jesus mentioned homosexuality
but I do know that the sex phobic huckster Paul expounded upon it in a lengthy and loving manner.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. He didn't. Paul did. In Roman's 1:27.
That's the kind of input I'm looking for. Jesus didn't address GLBT. Paul did, but there were extenuating circumstances.

That's the sort of information I'm looking for.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Don't have a Bible handy, but...
several references offhand...

When asked what the greatest commandment was, he added an eleventh-- Love.

He did say that he came not to enforce the old law, but to bring the new law, implying that much of what was in the OT was now void.

Not everything, though. There's no evidence that he was flipping the commandments, which are, in some form, basic to most ethical systms. He was saying that stuff like burnt offerings, rabbinical courts, and keeping kosher were out, not that murder, lying, and stealing were in.

Since this probably has something to do with somebody quoting Leviticus, yeah, Jesus pretty much threw a lot of that out. But, it's tricky, because Leviticus tells us to not to cheat in business deals and other things that shouldn't be thrown out.

Easiest way to look at it is that he threw out the specifically Jewish laws and references, not the ones that have secular validity.

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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. No one quoting anything, just need referances to the OT from
Jesus himself. I anticipate having discussions with a Bible quoting friend and just wanted to be as well educated on the relationship between the OT and Jesus as possible. I don't have a "side", just want an education.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. grabbed my handy concordance
and looked under "Law" Here's what I found (all quotes from King James version of the Bible)

Matthew 5:17-18
Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

For verily Isay unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 22:36-40

Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shat love3 the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all they mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


These seem to be the most apt citations I could find.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. thanks nt
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is a thorny question.
The Catholic church wound up being antinomian, i.e., they rejected the law. There were a bunch of reasons: one was the circumcision ruling from the "Council of Jerusalem" mentioned, I think, in Acts--was circumcision binding in the Gentiles that Paul recruited (for all the anti-Pauline venom here, please note that there's little evidence that Jesus or the Apostles proselytized outside of Israel, or considered non-Israelites to be of great interest). This was taken to mean the law wasn't applicable to gentiles.

Further support came from a vision that Paul had early on: three times presented with unclean meats in a vision, he said each time he had never eaten any unclean thing. He wondered what it meant. The Catholic church said the dietary laws, and, in general, laws concerning purity and rituals,weren't binding. Paul said it meant that he should call no man unclean, and Gentiles were open for conversion.

Further support was read into the "fulfill the law", so Protestants ramble around the countryside saying "Christ fulfilled the law." In it's place are the quotes from Leviticus, Love thy neighbor as thyself, etc. "Law of love" is how it's usually put, with 'love to God' being expressed solely as 'love for fellow man'. Circumcision, all the ritual purity and sacrificial laws, and other laws are dumped; I guess they bring the "do not murder" law back in under "law of love". This is a strongly dispensationalist view, although the term is anachronistic and wouldn't have been used in the 4-5th centuries when this was being hashed out.

I know of no brand of Xianity that, if you sat down and actually communicated with reasonable members of its adherents, wouldn't agree with a great deal of that. But some would disagree with the conclusion.

A much, very much less held point of view is that Christ didn't actually suspend any OT legal requirements during his lifetime; he even toughened up the law on divorce, revoking liberalization introduced under Moses administration. He didn't say not to tithe; he called adultery a sin, and added the "lust in your heart" proviso that Moses left untouched; he pointed out the sabbath was for man's good, not that it shouldn't be kept, but it wasn't onerous. He was a perfectly observant Jew, who made the law much, much tougher to keep: outward observance wasn't enough, hoop-jumping didn't cut it any more. Circumcision was for Israel, not binding on non-Israelites; Jesus, sent to Israel, didn't address the issue because it would never have come up. There was no question about whether his followers should keep the Mosaic law, so that also never came up. When points of the law came up, he was actually quite consistent. He said not to add things to the law, and hammered the Pharisees on that point; and not to take things from the law, and again hammered the Pharisees. He argued for mercy, and for not punishing those who erred if they made a mistake and feel sorry about it.

This leaves the ritual side of things, and it gets messy, in this line of reasoning. If Christ was the perfect sacrifice, the sacrificial system's certainly trashed. What about the ritual laws--foods, etc.? Some keep them, on the 'better safe than sorry' plan, or have reasons that aren't entirely convincing to everybody; others dump them, on the 'we'll be forgiven for our mistakes' system, or have reasons that are also not entirely convincing. A further complication is, What's a ritual law? Holy days? Unclean foods? Sabbath?

For almost none of this do you get quotes from Jesus: you can read what he says in the canonical gospels, and the associated cirumstances, and form a pattern. But that doesn't address many of the big issues. The quotes from Paul are more cogent, but aren't always crystal clear in their meaning: 'law' can have any number of referents, and the context isn't always clear to guide us; sometimes the syntax is contorted.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. How about 2nd Corinthians 3:6-11?
It appears to me that Paul is saying that the new covenant is superior to the old.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death (referring to Moses and the tablets), came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Am I reading this wrong?
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. No, you're reading it right.
The first view (Catholic, if you will, or dispensationalist) says it means the law itself is done away with. Sort of like disposing of a contract and having all the terms of the contract be voided. Then there's a second contract.

The first view is actually quite simple on its face. One question I don't know how they answer is: For what do we need to be forgiven? No law, no definition of sin; that leaves "original sin". I guess the only way out is that "sin is whatever contravenes love", but that seems awfully squirrelly for a first century Jewish mindset.

The second view would argue that much of the framework of the second contract presupposes much of the framework of the first. Death was brought in two ways in the OT: through the constant killing of animals, which couldn't really provide atonement, and the inevitable inability for the people to actual live up to the expectations of the covenant--the penalty being death; the new covenant has far higher expectations, but also, presumably, far more help in living up to its requirements, and atonement through Jesus' sacrifice. The law continues, necessary to define sin; but through Jesus the penalty is voided. The folk tend to talk about the "law of love" as well, if the truth be told; but they tend to regard it as expressed in much of the law--the 10 commandments operationalize love, so to speak, are particular instantiations of it. Depend on it.

Part of the problem is that anything Jesus said in favor of the law was said when he was still alive; with his death, presumably everything changes. Both views are quite tenable, as long as you don't try to mix and match the kinds of logic and argumentation used. I think the first view has as a bad side-effect a kind of antinomianism, it doesn't matter what you do, you can always find an excuse, and it doesn't matter anyway because you'll be forgiven; the second has a more direct legalist 'saved by works' narrow mindset. I've seen both; I can do without either these days.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Jesus said very little
about sexuality at all. Very few of his teachings are geared towards behaviors as much as attitudes. His harsh teachings are, without exception, aimed at the self-righteous.

In regard to Jesus's connection to the OT, the prime example is found in the relationship between his teachings found in Luke 4:18-19 and the Book of Isaiah 58:7-9. This has to do with the "spirit" of doing God's work; literally, feeding the poor, housing the homeless, clothing the naked, healing the broken-hearted, freeing those held captive, and related works.

The "greatest commandment" was definitely revolutionary -- Jesus was challenging the authority of the temple. But it was not new. I'll be curious to see who can identify what Jesus was making reference to.
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I love to use this "direct quote" from Jesus on marital relations....
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from husband committeth adultery. Luk 16:18

All them adulterous Rethugs hate this one....lol
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
11. Here's a bible reference source everyone needs.....
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