On the resurrection of Jesus

[Boojatta]

Deduction #1:
All multiples of four are even.
Twelve is a multiple of four.
Therefore, twelve is even.

Deduction #2:
No man has returned to life after being dead for at least 48 hours.
Jesus was a man.
Therefore, Jesus didn't return to life after being dead for at least 48 hours.

The two deductions above are entirely different in nature.

The first one is in fact an abstract construct. In other words, it's an observation about an aspect of conceptual reality that has doesn't depend upon time and is not open to variation. The second deduction is a misapplied observation of reality. It is in fact a theory. An educated guess about what may or may not be the nature of things. From experience we have learned that men don't tend to rise from the dead. So it is not inappropriate to assume that Jesus didn't rise from the dead.

There are also serious problems that arise trying to explain well-established historical events if we accept deduction #2, but these problems are related to the same issue of presuming observational generalizations to be absolute. We cannot assume that the assumptions relied upon to arrive at the conclusion of deduction #2 are as reliable as, for example, the principle of mathematical induction.

Any attempt to link deduction #1 with deduction #2 is a result of ignorance. It may be understandable ignorance, but it betrays a failure to understand some fundamental differences. Abstract constructs are useful for understanding reality. However, we must remember that we base our theories on observations, not the other way around. When people observed a hole in the ozone layer, they initially suspected that there was some mistake either in their measuring equipment or in their interpretation of the data provided by their measuring equipment. However, they didn't make a hobby out of ridiculing people who think that there is a hole in the ozone layer. Nor, unless we were personally present and know from first-hand experience that nothing strange occurred, should we ridicule them when they report having witnessed strange occurrences.

[Ian David]

1. How come nobody ever prays for their dead loved-ones to be resurrected?

Oh yeah.

[Pterodactyl]

12. Ha ha. Actually, I do.

I hope and pray that on the last day, my love ones and I will be raised up to be with Jesus.

[Ian David]

14. That's just creepy. Haven't you watched ANY zombie movies? n/t

[Pterodactyl]

17. Yes, I happen to enjoy zombie movies.

But the real resurrection isn't going to be like that. As messed ups as the world is, I hold out the hope that in the end, it will be all right.

[HereSince1628]

2. But, golly, Jesus was a woman!

Jesus was produced by Mary without benefit of a sex partner.
production of offspring without sex is called parthenogenesis
In species with xy sex determining systems, as humans have, parthenogenesis doesn't produce males.

[tularetom]

3. I love them deductions

Like this one:

Terrorists cannot walk on water
John McCain cannot walk on water.
Therefore John McCain is a terrorist.

We used to make them up in high school just to piss off our teacher.

[Occam Bandage]

10. Well, I think that's a form of illicit minor,

though my logic is a bit rusty.

[lapfog_1]

4. Change the language.

Man CANNOT return to life after being dead 48 hours.
Jesus was a man.
Therefore, Jesus did not return to life after being dead 48 hours.

That is a complete logical tautology and follows all of precepts of symbolic logic.

You can argue all you want about the truth of the first statement. Its a matter of faith I suppose.

[stopbush]

5. You forgot this:

1. There is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus actually existed.

[Boojatta]

6. Is there any evidence that Socrates actually existed?

[stopbush]

7. No, there isn't, but nobody is claiming Socrates is a resurrected god.

Your point?

[Boojatta]

8. It's not unusual for academic philosophers to talk about Socrates.

[edhopper]

16. Why yes, there is.

[Goblinmonger]

22. Yes. Don't be obtuse. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

9. #2 involves induction. #1 does not.

[Az]

11. Agreed with reservations

The ignorance in question is related to the difference between the nature of abstract constructs and evidential procedure. I am worried that you are trying to leverage some aspect of the word ignorance in this case. So until I understand what you are angling towards I reserve total agreement of your proposition.

[Silent3]

13. John Belushi

Deduction #3:
No man has returned to life after being dead for at least 48 hours.
John Belushi was a man.
Therefore, John Belushi didn't return to life after being dead for at least 48 hours.

Since Deduction #2 is "inappropriate", #3 which follows exactly the same pattern must also be "inappropriate".

How dare anyone cast doubt upon the Resurrected John Belushi! :eyes:

You know, Boojie Boy, you can wrap this BS in as many layers of aped formal language as you like, lame is still lame.

[ZombieHorde]

15. When I was a kid, I asked my mother if she believed in zombies.

She said; "No".

I then told her that Jesus and Lazarus were zombies.

She didn't like that idea.

However, they didn't make a hobby out of ridiculing people who think that there is a hole in the ozone layer.

If this is true, then it is their loss. It was their personal choice to deny themselves the subtle pleasures that come from ridiculing people who have opinions concerning the ozone layer and any holes it may or may not have. Pleasure is its own reward.

[trotsky]

18. Lima beans.

They're really an under-appreciated side dish, you know. Super-high in fiber, high in protein, lots of trace minerals important to our diet. Research shows that when consumed at a meal, they help prevent blood sugar levels from rising as rapidly, making them an excellent choice for diabetics and other sufferers of insulin-related conditions.

In addition, one of the minerals lima beans contain in abundance is molybdenum. People who are sensitive to sulfites (preservatives) benefit greatly from keeping their molybdenum levels high, as it helps metabolize the sulfites more readily.

[cosmik debris]

19. "Any attempt to link deduction #1 with deduction #2 is a result of ignorance."

And yet you did just that.

[Az]

20. He seems fixated on a comment I made some time ago

The line you quoted is actually one of mine made during one of our past exchanges where he tried to link abstract constructs to evidence based methods. I called it out as being not linked and that abstract constructs just build models. They must still be checked in the real world by experimentation and testing. He seems hooked on the concept since then for some unknown reason and keeps bringing it back up. I suspect he is trying to link some large scale anecdotal evidence into some argument somewhere and can't get around the limitations of methods. So he is probing everywhere and anywhere he can find a chink in the armor... so to speak... Of course I am just guessing. Who can truly know the mind of Boojie?

[cosmik debris]

21. It kinda makes you wonder

What interesting conversations we might have if he worked as hard on clarification as he works on enigmatic obfuscation.

[Az]

23. I know

Its very frustrating. He is clearly well read. So there is some grey matter there. But he's just so defensive and plays everything so close to his vest.

[cosmik debris]

24. I just assumed that it was his goal to frustrate.

If he is smart enough to avoid that, but doesn't, what other conclusion can I draw?

That's why so many of my responses are directed at his goal of causing frustration.

And I know I'm successful because the Mods tell me so. :)

[Az]

25. I have been operating on the assumption of an effective social disorder

Say Aspergers or some other high functioning disorder. He seems to be trying to run down a specific set of rules that he does not have an internal sense of. He needs to have these rules spelled out so he can negotiate the conversation.

But then again he could very well just be a discordian and trying to sew as much chaos as possible. Difficult to tell.

[vsleeplessv]

26. Explain This pls

Alright, if Jesus didn't raise from the dead them why can no
one find His tomb, why did His disciples lie that He did even
to the point of horrible deaths, how did Christianity spread
so quickly even while being persecuted in almost every country
and how is it the most dominant religion in all history? If
Jesus didn't raise from the dead then why didn't the Romans or
the Jews just go get His body and show everybody that His
disciples were lying? If He wasn't really raised from the dead
then they could have just gone to the tomb where they knew He
was buried b/c they placed Roman guards at His tomb, and just
got His body and placed it on the street and then Christianity
would have been done with, but that didn't happen. Some people
say that the disciples stole the body. That's ridiculous! The
tomb was sealed by a humongous stone and was guarded by at
least two Roman Officers. By the way, if Roman soldiers failed
in anything they did, even guarding a tomb, they'd be
sentenced to immediate death. They were also the most highly
trained military soldiers in the world at that time. I don't
think someone who wasn't in the military could have any chance
of killing the soldiers and taken the body. Oh yeah, there are
also secular and Jewish scripts talking about the Roman
soldiers going to the Jewish council, who hired them, to tell
them that Jesus rose from the dead. Also, there is speculation
that the soldiers just fell asleep. Again, doubtful, they
would be immediately killed if they fell asleep while on duty.
They didn't take there jobs loosely, they were very serious
about their duties and if they weren't then they'd be scared
of being killed. Lets go to the disciples again. These are the
ones who spread Christianity. Lets go back to before Jesus'
crucifixion. By their own admission, gospels, they were no
body's. They were weak, unsure, and selfish throughout the
three and a half years of Jesus' ministry. Peter even denied
Jesus three times and ran away in fear when Jesus was
crucified. All His disciples abandoned Him at His crucifixion.
They knew He died, they had no hope and they went back home.
So what would have made them so bold as to go all around the
world preaching about Jesus' resurrection even unto extreme
deaths such as being crucified upside down, being nailed to
the ground and beheaded, being thrown into fire pits, being
shot through with arrows and being struck through with spears.
So why would these men lie about His resurrection and start a
new religion that even showed them as weak and incapable of
living a good life w/out the power of Christ. You can look at
Islam and who wrote it. Muhammed wrote them Khoran and showed
himself as amazing and above the law of God b/c he'd always
change what he wrote to make himself higher and higher in the
religion. He said not to marry multiple wives but he himself
did. He did this many times. His religion made himself look
godly. The disciples talked about their failings,
shortcomings, insecurities and the only thing that helped them
was God. They took no praise of themselves and never promoted
themselves, only Jesus and Him crucified. Oh yeah, Jesus'
miracles, as well as the disciples and apostles, were
documented in a lot more places than the Bible. There are even
Jewish historians who hated Christianity who spoke about the
validity of the miracles. Just because men don't raise from
the dead in your experience, which is a very short one if you
look at all of history. And yes, we do have science and all
that jazz to say that it can't happen. But there are actually
cases all around the world of people being raised from the
dead today. Look at the churches in Africa and China and see
what's happening. And of course God exists. How can a universe
create itself from nothing? Have you ever seen a horse just
appear in your room for no reason and by no cause? No! And
people say then who created God. God wasn't created and
doesn't have to be b/c He's outside of space and time, which
the universe is in. Nothing comes from nothing, that's
ridiculous. Also, the big bang also points to creation. At one
point the universe was created, the universe is not eternal,
everything created must have a creator. God is an exception,
again, b/c He's outside time and space. Look at  your
conscious even. You don't know right from wrong just b/c you
evolved enough, that's ridiculous. Just think about this
article and follow it up with some study. 

Thanks for your time,

Later

[Az]

28. Wall of text assaults don't work

First, Hi there and welcome to DU, if in fact this if your first time here.

Second, you have more than enough questions here for an entire new thread all your own. We are trying to figure out what Booj is up to so we would like to remain focused.

Third, there is a 40 year gap between when Jesus supposedly lived and when we actually see anything in writing about his life. So we don't know for certain what the apostles saw and experienced that lead them to devote their lives to spreading the word. We don't know how much of what is written about Jesus is truth and what is exaggeration. Example, the resurrection story clearly is flawed in the fact that there were no zombies that rose from the dead and wandered about the cities as suggested by the story. Someone would have noticed dead wise men walking around. But this is meat for another thread as I suggested in point number two.

Forth, as I said in the subject header wall of text attacks are generally frowned on in most internet forums. You have an enter key. Learn to use it. Paragraphs make things much easier to read and understand. If you have several different points you wish to make break them up into different threads. Tossing a ton of points into a single post means countless branches off of that one post and tons of confusion. So wall of text attacks are just rude, unnecessary, and generally ignored. So stop wasting your and our time.

[olegramps]

29. Many fallacies in your statement

You are more than welcome to your beliefs and I don't challenge them. However, many of your statements lack authentication. It will have to suffice to point this out since that is not the subject of this original post without going in each issue.

[thraxis]

31. You make the obvious far too rational and therefore hard to perceive by those

who are themselves very rational people. In other words,it's the same old argument that has been going on for 2000 years and boils down to a matter of faith. Interesting website. No matter how we believe, we are about to have a president who will be able to address all of our concerns and be a president of all the people - something we have been lacking foe a very long time.

[TechBear_Seattle]

27. Syllogism #2, premise 2, is incorrect

The doctrine of the Trinity is central to Christianity and has been since at least the promulgation of the canons of the Nicene Council in 326 CE. This doctrine holds that Jesus was not just a man; he was also God. This makes the syllogism:

No man has returned to life after being dead for at least 48 hours.
Jesus was both man and God.
Therefore, Jesus didn't return to life after being dead for at least 48 hours.

Now, the second premise has no relation to the first and the syllogism fails.

I also have a major contention that you cannot prove a negative, and it is logically flawed to start a premise with "No man." You cannot prove a negative, and just becase we have no verifiable reports does not mean such an event has never happened.

[FM Arouet666]

30. You think too much, there is a simple solution to this

Ya just need to go to the God Faq. All you need to know is there.

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/

[saltpoint]

32. "Math sucks," as Jimmy Buffett once said.

It probably doesn't suck for people who are pretty good at it, or people who are very good at it, like Secretary Chu, for instance.

But for many others it sucks and the Buffett assessment is accurate.

We call numbers by specific names and use the same system to buy gum and Lysol and Wonder Bread.

In other languages, other names are used but they are correspondently specific. I have no idea if you can buy Wonder Bread, for example, in the remote areas of say, Bolivia, or in downtown Beirut. But if Wonder Bread is in fact available there, grocery shopper #1 likely pays the same for it as grocery shopper #2.

They can go home and make sandwiches.