What is a militant atheist?

[Az]

I am curious as to what some people mean when they say militant atheist. It seems to me as though you could substitute f-ing as the adjective and convey the same meaning most people seem to be trying to convey when they use this term. Its certainly not a term most atheists use for any of our own. So what the heck is a militant atheist and how is it any different than saying f-ing atheist?

(on edit: Punctuation correction)

[BlooInBloo]

1. I commonly use the term "militant" in roughly the same way as "evangelical"...

I.e., trying to convert people to whatever the noun is. For example, I don't mind vegetarians, but I can't fucking stand militant vegetarians.

I can't say whether or not that's how other people use the term.

[Az]

7. So that makes it a dismissive adjective rather than descriptive?

F-ing atheist, f-ing vegetarian, f-ing etc? Fill in whatever expletive fits the mood?

[BlooInBloo]

10. A combination, as I use it.

[movonne]

2. A militant atheist is anyone that is an etheist...at lease that is what

the so called Christians would say...

[drmeow]

3. Is there such a thing as a

militant Christian? Would that be different from f-ing Christian? If a militant Christian wants to force everyone to worship their god would a militant atheist want to bar everyone from worshiping any god?

In reality, I think people are labeled militant if they are loud and vocal about beliefs that go against the current status quo in ways that people find hard to avoid or ignore. They are the people who are loudly advocating for change, often radical change - especially change that upsets the existing power imbalance in society (militant feminists, militant atheists - you don't often hear militant anti-choicers because anti-choice is closer to supporting the existing power imbalance but that doesn't make them any less militant to me). Whether that is appropriate way of using the term is a different question.

[Az]

5. Well typically militant means armed and violent

Militant Muslim gets the visual point across pretty easily. And yes there are and have been militant Christians doing such things as shooting doctors and bombing clinics. But I just really can't think of any recent militant atheist activities to warrant the recent outburst of calls concerning militant atheists. It's decidedly a shock value label designed to make the individual being talked about look unhinged or dangerous. Which if you have ever met Richard Dawkins (one of the key "militant atheists") is almost comical in thought.

[drmeow]

12. Militant is defined as

1 : engaged in warfare or combat : fighting
2 : aggressively active (as in a cause) : combative <militant conservationists> <a militant attitude>

As such one would not have to be violent to be considered militant.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about the inappropriateness of the use of the term militant to describe very vocal atheists. However, I do believe it is appropriate to use the word militant in its second definition. The problem is that it is currently used as a negative label attached by those in power to marginalize those who are trying to change the power structures. That doesn't mean we can't use it in the same way . In fact, I would argue that it is very appropriate to talk about militant capitalists or militant free marketers (and, in those cases, violence often is a factor). Done right we could use their framing against them.

[Az]

13. But that doesn't track when compared to religious militants

The use of the term is an attempt to pose the atheist as someone as dangerous to society as a militant religious individual. And that is where the underhandedness of the term comes from. They could say active, or boisterous, or any other better descriptive term. But instead one is chosen that demeans the atheist. It attempts to prejudice people against anything they have to say simply because they are being associated with being unhinged and dangerous.

[moggie]

15. Perhaps there's a cultural difference here

Here in the UK, one commonly hears "militant" applied to political and other ideologies without any suggestion of violence. It's commonly used by those on the right to denigrate leftists. For example, back in the 1980s the term "militant trades unionists" was common, referring to workers who had the temerity to campaign for better pay and conditions. "Militant feminists" is another: that can get applied to any woman who doesn't understand that her proper role is to be quiet and pretty. So, as a lefty, I'm used to hearing people whose ideology I dislike refer to people I support as militant, and I just take it to mean "vocal and unapologetic", or "uppity".

[drmeow]

40. That's my perception of it as well n/t

[bluestateguy]

4. Perhaps someone who has comtempt for people who believe in God

Someone who mocks and is hostile to someone who is religious.

I've met a few people of that mindset before.

[Az]

6. So does that make people who mock nonbelievers militant believers?

See thats the problem with the label. It doesn't work. Militant means armed and violent. And that seems to be part of the image trying to be conveyed. That these atheists are dangerous to society and should be shunned or worse.

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. That would be 'pissed off', not 'militant'.

And most with that attitude are not true atheists, but reactive anti-theists, usually from being brought up in a fundie household.

The person who say "I hate god" is not an atheist.

[Odin2005]

18. So are scientists that have contempt for creationists "millitant evolutionists"?

This is the taboo I'm talking about, religion is not allowed to be critiqued and criticized like anything else. As far as I'm concerned believing in God is the same thing as an adult that thinks Santa is real.

[Goblinmonger]

20. From my side of the table

what is often descried as mockery and hostile is nothing more than acutally questioning the premises upon which something is based. Or, god forbid, actually speaking out about our thoughts on the issue.

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. 'Militant' is the term used by those in power to paint those not in

power as being dangerous.

[Grey]

9. someone that won't roll over and be quiet

when they start spouting. because I ask questions.... I don't buy what they are selling...
Because I have opinions...... They call me contrary. I am not just a carbon copy.
I enjoy a good argument and that 'hurts' their feelings. For this and much more I am called Militant.
I have no need to "believe" or "have Faith" what ever that means. So I am Militant.
It's a means of labeling and there by minimizing our value. But, Hey, We rock.

[kristopher]

14. A militant atheist is

A militant atheist is someone that will fuck you up if you keep bringing that psychotic godshit at them.

It is someone that is not tolerant of religion but instead considers participation in organized religion to be a mental aberration that needs to be confronted instead of nurtured.


Or so I've been told....

[anonymous171]

16. Atheist version of evangelical fundamentalists.

Take a fundy, remove theism, and you get a "militant" atheist.

[cosmik debris]

19. I don't understand that one

"militant", "fundamentalist", and "evangelical" all have different unique meanings.

If you use them interchangeably, they have no meaning at all.

[Goblinmonger]

21. Do words have any meaning for you?

There are very specific differences between those three but you use them as synonyms. That very clearly supports the idea that it is just a derogatory term. You might as well scrap the words that have different meanings and call us fucking atheists. Except then, you would look like an ahole and you would not be able to pour on the denotative meanings behind the words that aren't really being used like they should.

[Az]

25. Thats another phrase that seems to take the dismissive qualities of the adjective

There is no set doctrine of atheism to evangelize. We don't have a doctrine. Heck we still argue about what the heck an atheist is at meetings.

See its the negative connotations of words like militant and evangelist that people are trying to attach to atheists that make these phrases literally insulting. They do not convey a true representation of the individual in question. Instead they build a strawman of the individual and attach all the negative emotions of the adjectives invoked regarding them. Its intellectually dishonest.

[anonymous171]

26. I see your point.

"Militant" doesn't really accurately describe this group of people anyways. Sure they can be just as annoying as fundies, but they aren't blowing up churches or anything.

[Odin2005]

17. We are called "millitant" because we dare violate the taboo against criticizing religion.

At least according to Daniel Dennett in his book "Breaking the Spell." Various arguments are used to rationalize the taboo, but intimately it is just an irrational taboo.

[Jim__]

22. Not all atheists object to being called militant atheist.

In this talk, Dawkins urges it upon his audience.

Lenin also embraced the term.

Some atheists do accept that enthusiastic support for atheism is "militant atheism".

[Az]

23. Oh of course

I have no doubts about that. There are any number of atheists at any given time trying to own the labels applied to them. And militant carries a certain counter culture edge that a lot of atheists may find appealing. But then that is not all atheists. We tend to be a rather individualistic set. Trying to figure out any one of us by the actions of a few is not going to get you far.

[Jim__]

28. Then the problem becomes a catch-22 of political correctness.

Some atheists want to be called militant, some atheists don't. It's a no-win situation. I think it's best to ignore the labels and discuss substantive issues.

[Az]

30. But in this modern age

Framing the question defines the argument before any answer is even given. So defining someone before they even have a chance to be substantive closes the deal for most people. Call someone a militant atheist and most people shut down and refuse to even listen. This is why so many people get up in arms about being PC. It may seem like a bunch of snooty label wrangling. But the way things work these days labels are all people pretty much pay attention to.

[Jim__]

33. If all people are paying attention to is labels, they're not worth talking to anyway.

[Az]

36. Depends on why you are talking to them

To interact in intriguing intellectual dialog? Yeah... those who fixate on labels are not worth the time. But to affect social change? Then you have to deal with those who can't be bothered with the details.

[Jim__]

44. Not really.

If all people are paying attention to is labels, then all you can do is try to win the label war - i.e. apply more damning labels to the other side. By the stated assumption - people are only paying attention to labels - there is not point in denying the labels you been saddled with.

[Az]

45. I suppose that is a tactical call

I see your point but don't necessarily agree with it.

[PassingFair]

24. Someone who speaks or writes that there is no "god".

In front of, or put in front of a typical believer.

They can't handle it, any vocal or printed
disbelief is a challenge to the believer's
cherished world view, and is viewed as an
attack.

We are expected to keep quiet.

[Evoman]

27. Are we starting this up AGAIN?

I am a militant atheist....if you pray to god around me, I will take you out. Two bullets to the chest, one to the head....no ones praying on my watch.

:sarcasm:

[Az]

29. There ya go... now thats a militant atheist

Hoooha!!!

[Evoman]

34. For sure. Right now I'm experimenting with catchy phrases after I dispose of Christians.

*throws christian into the garbage* It' time....to take out the trash.

*explosion in a muslims kitchen* If you can't stand the heat...stay out of the kitchen.



(for all those who are offended..I'm kidding. I haven't killed any religious people in years)

[Az]

37. Its hard to kick the habit

Unless there's a nun in it. (I KID!!!)

[Silent3]

39. We'll have nun of that! n/t

[cosmik debris]

31. And conversely

What is a non-militant atheist?

What does one have to do to escape that title?

[Az]

32. Sit quietly while the theocracy takes hold?

Help distribute bibles? The possibilities are endless.

[cosmik debris]

35. I guess I'll just have to accept the label God gave me. n/t

:)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

38. One who, given a choice between arguing about religion and not, does so.

(When all else is equal - obviously, there are some situations most atheists will stick up for their beliefs, and some where only a complete asshole would).

I define myself as a semi-militant atheist - I enjoy arguing about religion, but I think it's an antisocial habit and try not to do it too much with my friends.

[knitter4democracy]

41. It's a made-up term that's closer to an insult than a truth.

I don't like that one, myself. Militant makes me think of someone who'll take up arms to defend to the death his/her belief, and I have yet to meet an atheist who would go that far. It's used as an insult whenever I see it here.

[TZ]

42. Absolutely

along with the f-atheist both are used to insult and broadbrush.

[varkam]

43. An atheist that has the temerity to talk about their atheism. eom

[stuntcat]

46. me

Religious beliefs are responsible for the raping of the Earth now. The president who's the closest to "God" is anti-environmental and is trying to take away our protection of threatened species. People who think Heaven is somewhere else don't appreciate the beautiful Earth and all it's species of life. They think humans are holy and should rule the Earth until God delivers certain ones to Heaven. It's caused wars as long as people have had it. To prove their beliefs they just have lots of sweet stories but what we're doing to the planet and all the other species is right there for us all to witness. You don't even have to know the devil's science to see what God's image really is.

I'm militant lately. I'm scared to death of the next few decades. "His Image" can cause a mass-extinction and carry on.. happily consuming like they're fixing to be taken to some sweet fantasy land.

[tribeofdot]

47. I would say.....

Probably anyone who believes in torching churches and temples with the parishioners inside them as a great idea to take care of the believers.

but basically anyone who is wholly defined by their atheism or who is so strongly "atheist" that they become anti-culture, Diversity, or even violent toward dissent or perceived dissenters

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tribeofdot]

49. my first example...

Was just a lone nut I know from college.... odds are... and hopefully he is the only one. but I would say he could be called a militant atheist.

[Goblinmonger]

53. As long as you realize

he is just a lone nut. Most here will use the term with a very broad brush. If we judged all of a group by a single insane asshole, all Christians would be Fred Phelps (of course there are more than just one of him, but you get my point).

[tribeofdot]

60. Yes a lone nut....

But also a nut I had to share a class with and who was about twice my total size, Kinda scary having to debate the guy.

[Goblinmonger]

55. I see my previous message

was deleted. Must have been the noob comment. I hope you didn't take offense, I thought my welcome message at the end of the post would let you know I was just giving you some ribbing.

[tribeofdot]

59. Ooo I didn't do anything

I wasn't offended at all... I am after all New here. =D

[skepticscott]

50. "Militant atheist" is just a term

used by people who are not capable of making the distinction between an atheist and an anti-religionist.

[kwassa]

51. What do you do when the two are the same person?

Atheist and anti-religionist all wrapped up in one person.

[skepticscott]

52. Then you call them whichever one

is appropriate to the context you're speaking in. Just as you would if someone were both a lawyer and a vegetarian all wrapped up in one person. But conflating the two and calling someone a "vegetarian ambulance chaser" would be just about as silly an insult as "militant atheist".

[HamdenRice]

54. But it would be appropriate to call someone an "ambulance chasing lawyer"

that's because being an "ambulance chaser" (which means a tort lawyer who aggressively seeks clients) and being a lawyer are related, because one is a subset of the other.

Being a vegetarian is not correlated to being a lawyer, which is why vegetarian ambulance chaser is illogical.

Anti-religionists are a subset of atheists. The ideas are closely related. That's why kwaasa is correct -- "militant atheists" applies to a subset of atheists. That's why it's a logical term to use in some contexts.

[skepticscott]

56. Sorry, wrong (again)

Anti-religionists are not a subset of atheists...not even close, in fact. I know people (and have read writings by others) who believe in a personal god but who also are highly critical, even defamatory about organized religion (or at least certain flavors of it), and believe that it has had a far greater detrimental than beneficial effect on society. And it is also entirely possible for someone to believe in no gods at all, but to think that people who do are more good than bad, so atheists are also not a subset of anti-religionists. On the other hand, EVERY time someone refers to an ambulance chaser, they're referring to a lawyer.

If you want to be accurate, the people that are called "militant atheists" should be called "militant anti-religionists" (if you have to use the word militant at all). They are not being "militant" about lacking a belief in gods.

[kwassa]

58. Anti-religionists CAN be a subset of atheists

I've certainly met anti-religionist atheists, they are pretty easy to find on DU.

I think they are definitely a subset of atheists. They can also be subsets of different groups, as well. This does not negate they are a a subset of atheists.

[skepticscott]

63. The fact that there is overlap between the two

does not mean that one is a subset of the other. For B to be a subset of A, every member of B must also be a member of A and as I pointed out above, not all anti-religionists are atheists. Review Logic 101 and try again.

[kwassa]

65. so we are going to quibble over a math analogy?

bottom line: some atheists are anti-religionists.

The more forceful of these might be called militant, merely as a descriptive term. This suggests a dogmatic stance. Not all atheists are like this.

[skepticscott]

71. I didn't bring up the math analogy

You and Hamden Rice misused it to try to bolster a losing argument.

The bottom line is that the so-called "militancy" of the people being referred to is related to their anti-religionism, not their atheism. If you want to call them militant anti-religionists, fine, but "militant atheist" is just a BS term meant to smear and not to describe accurately.

[kwassa]

72. oh, please.

spare me your judgment about what constitutes a losing argument.

"The bottom line is that the so-called "militancy" of the people being referred to is related to their anti-religionism, not their atheism."

Why? Because you say so? The two ideas often travel together. Atheists are often anti-religionists. It is a perfectly logical relationship, often cause-and-effect.

"If you want to call them militant anti-religionists, fine, but "militant atheist" is just a BS term meant to smear and not to describe accurately"

I disagree. I think you make a distinction without a difference.

[Az]

57. I would call that person an atheist antireligionist

But unless they picked up a rock or a gun and went after someone violently I would not call them militant.

[tribeofdot]

61. then what do you call....

An atheist who seems to define their whole existence around their lack of a belief in God?

[beam me up scottie]

62. What do you call a believer who seems to define their whole existence around their belief in God?

[kwassa]

66. smart

:bounce:

[tribeofdot]

67. Okay let me explain...

I more talking about someone who seems to actually go out looking to stir up hate or "troll" theists. Like that's there whole mission in life.

[uberllama42]

69. I call that person a troll

I think that's a perfectly good word for people who behave like that. Maybe I would use 'anti-religious troll' if I wanted to be more specific.

[Az]

64. Obsessed

. Why? What would you call them?

[tribeofdot]

68. Well....

Until this thread I tended to say they were militant about it.

[smoogatz]

70. All atheists are "militant" on TV.

Any viewpoint that is skeptical of religious belief is hostile by definition, and therefore not safe for mass consumption. In reality, of course, there are very few militant atheists around. Even Dawkins isn't hostile to religion as much as he's alarmed by cultural/political irrationality.

[GliderGuider]

73. Apparently you find militant atheists in foxholes...

ba-da-bump
:hide:

[beam me up scottie]

74. Smart ass.

But a very brave one!
:rofl: