No 'Mark Of The Beast' Licenses For WV Christian Group

[DeSwiss]

W.Va. offers licenses for those who fear 'beast'

August 8, 2008
By ASSOCIATED PRESS



CHARLESTON, W.Va. (AP) — West Virginia started Friday keeping driver’s license photos out of a computer database for members of a small religious group who believe digital storage is a “mark of the beast” that evokes biblical prophecy. State Division of Motor Vehicles Commissioner Joseph Cicchirillo said the group of about 50 or 60 Christians, who are not affiliated with a particular church, contacted the agency two or three years ago to object to their pictures “being on a database that can be exchanged throughout the world or hacked into.”

One of the group members is Phil Hudok, who made headlines in 1999 when he was fired as a Randolph County school teacher for refusing to require his students to wear bar-coded identification badges. Hudok was later reinstated after a circuit judge said the school board had made no attempt to accommodate his religious beliefs. Hudok and other members of his group have said bar codes and digital storage of photos are a way of numbering people, which they liken to a warning in the Bible’s book of Revelation about a “mark of the beast” indicating the arrival of the Antichrist.

To accommodate their beliefs, state officials decided to issue driver’s licenses to the group members that are exactly like other West Virginia licenses except that the individual photos will be removed from the computer immediately after they are taken by a digital camera. Instead of being stored digitally, an 8-by-11-inch hard copy of each picture will be printed out and kept in a file. All other information, including birth dates and driving records, will be in the computer system, Cicchirillo said.

Without this accommodation, group members wouldn’t get their driver’s licenses, which the commissioner said would hamper their ability to get everyday services from insurance coverage to check cashing. West Virginia adopted digital photo storage several years ago, in advance of the federal Real ID Act. The law, which has an implementation date of 2010, would establish national standards for state-issued driver’s licenses and ID cards and enable the sharing of information about licensed drivers among all states.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2008/08/08/6388596-ap.html">LINK

- You know, there's one question I've always wondered about that these people who're so afraid of computers -- these "Numerology Christians" -- they never answer: Does Satan use a PC or a Mac???

I'm going with the PC. It just figures.....
==============================================================================
DeSwiss


http://www.atheisttoolbox.com/">The Atheist Toolbox

[bluestateguy]

1. My opinion of that state has deteriorated so much this year

Congratulations Utah, you now rank #49 on my preference list of US states.

[madeline_con]

2. Here's the problem.

The data is still in the computer. The number or "mark of the beast" is still there. Their likeness is the only thing omitted. Unless the think having a number and a pic of their forehead in the same data base somehow mysterioulsy puts the beast's mark on them through some altered reality-parallel universe thing.

I swear to GOD some people can be talked into anything!

I'd like to get minions to support me and pay my bills while I pontificated all day.

[HubertHeaver]

3. A MAC...Most definitely a MAC

[Loudmxr]

4. WVa did the right thing.

Its a "reasonable accommodation" for someones religious beliefs. This assuages their fear of the bad god. Its very important that when situations like this arise government must make "reasonable" efforts to "accommodate". It shows respect and inclusion in society. That is what the evolving American culture should strive for.

BTW Christians FREAK out when its pointed out that they believe in a GOOD god and a BAD god. Therefore making them a polytheistic religion. You know kinda like Hinduism. And with trinitarians... Old god, young god, pigeon god, and the god with horns and tail. Major FREAK OUT!!! B-)

[cosmik debris]

6. Driving is a privilege, not a right

If they want to avoid the database, they should not apply to the state for the privilege of a driver's license.

The terms and conditions for receiving a license to drive are neutral with regard to religion. There is no reason for the state to make any accommodation at all.

[Loudmxr]

7. "Reasonable accommodation" is another term for good service

If they drive or don't you'll still have lunch tomorrow so
what's it to you.

In a multi cultural society a government that attempts a
"reasonable accommodation" (legal term) to serve the
people is good government.

They get to drive. The state has their photo on analog in a
file, in an office, open mon-fri. 9-5. And if there is a
question about the validity of the ID then it will be checked
when the office is open. Meanwhile they may sit in jail till
the office opens.. or not.

[cosmik debris]

9. Privileges come with responsibility

To me, it looks as if these people want the privilege without the responsibility of obeying the law as it was written for everyone else.

The intrusion on their religious freedom is de minimus (legal term) and does not need a remedy.

Giving one religion or any religion special treatment or privilege is contrary to the egalitarian nature of our Constitution. Christians are always demanding special privileges and when they don't get them they whine about persecution. They deserve equality, nothing more. We all deserve equality, but the Christians won't allow equality for all because it would diminish their position of superiority.

[madeline_con]

11. Is keeping a file that is not computerized against the laws that

have been written regarding having or not having a license?

I would hope they'd let a Muslim woman keep her hair covered in her DR photo if that was her wish. That would be another accomodation that infringes on no one.

Just because the majority don't follow a particular belief does not mean they should forbid its practice out of hand without considering a small modification in record keeping it imposes on those who keep them.

[cosmik debris]

14. It is a special privilege provided at taxpayer expense

to a group of people based on their religion.

I don't believe it is a good idea to establish a privileged class based on religion.

[madeline_con]

15. Does that mean conservative Muslims should NOT be able to cover their hair in photos?

Doesn't that make them "a privileged class based on religion" ? A cop pulling them over can't see if their hair color matches that stated on the license.

edited for clarity

[cosmik debris]

16. I don't believe it is a good idea to establish a privileged class based on religion.

Your mileage may vary.

[madeline_con]

18. Is the face on these licenses?

I'm not understanding whether it's being omitted, or if the means of storage is what's being affected. :shrug:

[cosmik debris]

19. I believe in equality under the law.

And I believe your question is a red herring.

Feel free to disagree.

[madeline_con]

20. How is my question a red herring?

I'm asking if the likeness of the license holder is still included on those of this Christian group. Linking it to the Muslim situation does not make it irrelevant. It illustrates similarities in accomodating diverse groups.


No one's asking that all license holders worship as they do, just that their beliefs be respected.

[cosmik debris]

21. Do you believe in equality under the law?

Do you believe in establishing a privileged class based on their religion?

[madeline_con]

31. Now, who's got the herring? n/t

[cosmik debris]

32. Apparently you don't believe in equality under the law.

And apparently you do believe in establishing a privileged class.

You certainly show no enthusiasm for the cause of equality.

[DeSwiss]

27. Actually, no it isn't...

....a "reasonable accomodation" for the state to revert back to the days of yellowing index cards held in creaky old metal filing cabinets just to hold information on a particular group of its citizens. That's less efficient and more costly to operate and maintain. And, its a "SPECIAL PRIVILEGE."

Besides, there is nothing different being done here than what these same people have received in the past with respect to the assigning of a database number for those holding driving licenses in the state of WV. Its the method through the use of computers that they find Satanic, which is itself ludicrous.

And more to the point, where does one stop? Whose religious restrictions and beliefs should the state be held responsible for interpreting in order to determine the ones which are "reasonable" and the ones that are batshit crazy, so that they might "adjust or eliminate" state recordkeeping procedures to accomodate?

This same argument was made previously in the 1930's by Jehovah Witnesses who disagreed with the use of the Social Security numbers for the same idiotic reasons. But they releneted in the end because without it -- no money. And I'm sure that each of these "special" WV Christians has an SSN.....

[MrModerate]

5. This is absolutely batshit insane . . .

Their concern about the "mark of the beast" has no more historical/theological basis than Pastafarianism. I'm pretty sure that the word "database" doesn't appear in the New or Old testaments.

I propose setting up a whole series of religions in West Virginia (call 'em Christian to fool the clearly gullible state officials) with prohibitions against paying for earthly goods (requiring the state to provide an "average" living standard to each adherent); rules prohibiting delay of marriage past age 13; prohibitions against abstaining from the consumption of marijuana, heroin, peyote, and cocaine; prohibitions against living in the same community with anyone who doesn't follow the same deranged rules (requiring the state to build housing compounds and supply depots so adherents can avoid contact with those ajudged "unclean").

Etc., etc.

My point is the unacceptable behaviors I'm proposing are just as defensible as refusing to have your digital image on file with the state. Why should their insane behavior be protected and my insane behavior denied?

Hudok and his ilk are clearly wastes of skin, but the public officials giving into this nonsense are criminally derelict in their duties and should be hounded from office and probably imprisoned.

[madeline_con]

12. The word database is not the issue. The bible disusses the concept.

Jesus' parents had to travel to Bethehem to be counted in a census, so the idea of government record keeping is not a new one.

It's the number that concerns these people. They're assigned a number for the purpose of record keeping. While the idea that they don't want it and their likeness in the same file is strange, it's not infringing on anyone else's driving privilege or safety.

[MrModerate]

29. Well, actually, it is.

Their records are compromised and the state has to spend an inordinate amount of administrative resources to maintain this special setup. They are not entitled to special treatment for which others have to pay because of their bizarre interpretation of the bible.

If we want to go into bizarre interpretations, the bible's got a million of 'em. Why on earth give in on this one? It only encourages their antisocial behavior (and they're now batting 2 for 2 vs the state).

[zeemike]

8. What they never mention about the prophesies is

That it is not just about the number of the beast. but all about worshiping it's image.
And sense the beast is a political economic system, like an empire or kingdom, I submit that the fundies are worshiping the beast whether they take the numbering or not.
They support bush and all he has done to the world (and it is clearly evil according to Jesus and the bible) and worship the money and power that comes from that evil.

[madeline_con]

13. Excellent point. eom

[Silent3]

10. This reminds me of a case where a Muslim woman...

...wanted her driver's license photo to be taken while she was still wearing a veil, a case she didn't win.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-06-06-license-veil_x.htm

Crazy Christians seem to have an easier time getting ridiculous special accommodations in our courts than crazy Muslims do. Who've guessed?

[madeline_con]

17. Do these Christians' licenses not show their photo?

Or is it just the type of Storage that bothers them.

The Muslim who would essentially look like a ninja could receive a similar accomodation. Face on file, female cops only are allowed to match her to that identifier. She would definitely be subject to delays in many services.

[Silent3]

24. The fact that you can imagine a possible accomodation...

...doesn't mean the government should be obligated to provide that accommodation. That the government does not stand in your way for freedom of worship is enough. The government shouldn't be required to actively facilitate the burdens religious believers heap upon themselves, not if by doing so anyone else has to incur more than the most trivial additional expense or other burden.

[IndianaGreen]

22. Nero was the Antichrist of the Book of Revelation!

About 300 years before our era the Jews began to use their letters as symbols for numbers. The speculative Rabbis saw in this a new method for mystic interpretation or cabbala. Secret words were expressed by the figure produced by the addition of the numerical values of the letters contained in them. This new science they called gematriah, geometry. Now this science is applied here by our “John.” We have to prove (1) that the number contains the name of a man, and that man is Nero; and (2) that the solution given holds good for the reading 666 as well as for the equally old reading 616. We take Hebrew letters and their values —

ב (nun) n= 50 ק (keph) k = 100
ר (resh) r = 200 פ (samech) s= 60
ן (van) for o = 6 ר (resh) r = 200
נ (nun) n= 50


Neron Kesar, the Emperor Neron, Greek Nêron Kaisar. Now, if instead of the Greek spelling, we transfer the Latin Nero Caesar into Hebrew characters, the nun at the end of Neron disappears, and with it the value of fifty. That brings us to the other old reading of 616, and thus the proof is as perfect as can be desired.

The mysterious book, then, is now perfectly clear. “John” predicts the return of Nero for about the year 70, and a reign of terror under him which is to last forty-two months, or 1,260 days. After that term God arises, vanquishes Nero, the antichrist, destroys the great city by fire, and binds the devil for a thousand years. The millennium begins, and so forth. All this now has lost all interest, except for ignorant persons who may still try to calculate the day of the last judgment. But as an authentic picture of almost primitive Christianity, drawn by one of themselves, the book is worth more than all the rest of the New Testament put together.

Frederick Engels 1883

The Book of Revelation


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/religion/book-revelations.htm

[zeemike]

23. There are a lot of holes in that theory

For one, when was evil ever banished and we had a 1000 years of peace?
And was the book of Revelations written about AD 200?, long after Nero?

But the biggest one is that the "Beast" is not a man but a Kingdom that takes over the whole earth according to Daniel and Jesus.

The Anti Christ is something different, and by definition the destroyer of mankind.

[DeSwiss]

25. Holes???

Holes you say??? The entirety of the bible of full of 'em. Holes, contradictions and outright BS. It is little more than a collection of plagerized snycretic tales. So how can one hole be distinquished from another in its importance or relevance?

And that "peace" that we've all been looking for? I can say without reservation that it will never visit the earth as long as there is religion in it.

[zeemike]

26. When you start with the assumption that it is all just shit

Shit is what you will find.
Is that a surprise to you? Did you expect to read it with a preconceived notion and expect to be surprised?
But I would bet that you did not actually read it but got that opinion from someone else that told you about it.
Or if you did read it it was to confirm for yourself that it is all shit.

Why do I say this? Because you do not seem to have a clear understanding g of the story. And in fact very few actually do, the atheist because of the preconceived notions That they got from listening to preachers, and the fundies because they think that they are not smart enough to understand it without a preacher telling then what it means.

[DeSwiss]

28. Which is an idea...

...that cuts both ways. When you start out with an assumption that a belief is the truth when its actually a lie, then you'll still find "truth" everywhere you look. And this is particularly so in the case for most religionists who become indoctrinated and brainwashed into their beliefs as children, before they've developed any capabilitiy for critical thinking.

And for the record, I'm not an atheist which you "assumed" to be the case -- so I guess that you found your "truth" there. By association. However, I refuse to fit into anyone's little box or to wear their silly little labels. I base my position upon 56 years of study of religion(s) by reading and searching for answers and by participating in it. What I found is that religions are recyclable, snycretic concepts whose edicts have only a bare modicum of usable information in them. Such as the idea of doing unto others as you'd have them to do unto you. But then, that's not just one religion's concept, is it? Religions are myths - pure and simple. They DO contain truths within, but then so do many other writings.

As a sociological and anthropological concept, I believe that religion has always been, and will always be a security blanket for those who are incapable of understanding the reality of logic and reason, but who are not adverse of partaking of logic and reason's fruits and discoveries. And secondly, religions are for the frightened among us who fear a reality without purpose or meaning. Or at least one that they can discern. These religious myths help them to contend with these emotions and fears.

- And for the record, I'll stack my understanding of the bible up against anyone's -- anyday.

[zeemike]

30. You talk as if religion is all one thing.

It is not.
The followers of Jesus was the source of the christian religion, and yet there descendants are noting like them.
For one thing they "held all things in common...comunist..
But over time all that was modified a little at a time and so what we see later are the splinters of the beginning and most every one is roting from the perpetual corruption of 2000 years.
So you see what is now and assume it has always been that way.

I did not assume anything, I was using atheist as the opposite of christian, and I try to assume that most people here are somewhere in between.

Would it be fair to say that all of John Steinbecks books have no useful content because they were not truth, but something from his imagination?

[DeSwiss]

33. Thankfully, you've made my point.

It is correct to say that the followers of the Jesus myth today are nothing like those of antiquity. It is part of the series of contradictions inherent within the religion, and which also makes discerning any usefullness to be derived from it, problematic. As to the societal groupings as being defined as "in-common", this is not a true description of life during those times. Even the early Christians. They didn't "hold all things in-common." Although there were many social interactions that were indeed held and practiced in-common due to traditions mostly borne out of necessity. Religious rituals immediately come to mind.

Yet as the doctrines of the Jesus myth were co-opted from other myths, they have themselves been co-opted further many times since. Mainly, depending upon the political "religious and/or secular" leadership that was in place at a given time in its history. This was the time when the real gut-work of making a solid and entrenched religion took place. And its worked out ver well for them. The hunting down and excommunication of heretics. The confiscation of wealth and property from those deemed evil and corrupt and possesed by Satan. And the burning of books and all writings which contradicted with the "offical policies" are just a few examples of the pains that they went to, in order that we could have the twisted beliefs and understandings that they now bear. So to say that what we see today is a corrupt version of its more pure state of beginning, I can see as only a value judgement. The 2,000 year-old Jesus myth you refer to, has its storyline borrowing heavily from the myths of Horus from the Egyptian religious tales which preceded it. So it all depends upon where one begins counting in determining where the "corruption" began. So as you can see, I assume nothing. I only recount what was, and what is. And this is also were reason and belief depart company. You know where I'll be.

And as for John Steinbeck's usefullness as an analogy here, I would beg to differ with your assessment of how I view it. It is in many ways far superior to the bible tales because at least its confrontations with the issues and problems of life refelct a more modern timeframe from which I might judge its applicability to my own circumstances. Because at least the characters of Stienbeck's novles knew that the world was round. The people of the Jesus myth time, didn't. And as I mentioned earlier, while there are some universal ideas advancing peace and acceptance of each other to wit I solidly concur, I don not conflate that these ideas which are echoed from many other places and times as meaning they are the spoken words of the god of everything.

- And besides, I don't think that Steinbeck is a fair comparison here, because you weren't taught Steinbeck in Sunday School. Were you?

[zeemike]

34. "I assume nothing. I only recount what was"

And you know that the disciples of Jesus did not really hold all things in common how?
Because someone told you that it could not have happened that way because of customs and practices?
And yet the Arsines did it before Jesus was borne and they have the evidence for it.

"the doctrines of the Jesus myth were co-opted from other myths"

And you know this how? Or did you just assume this because there were others with similar ideas?
What we have here is an opinion,and I am glad to hear it, which you are entitled too, but you are not entitled to say I am stupid for not believing it.

"you weren't taught Steinbeck in Sunday School. Were you?"

No I was not, I was in the 7th grade before I read "The Grapes of Wrath" and in my early 20s before reading Cannery Roe and Tortilla Flat
But I did read it and did understand the story.
But kids and even adults are not, and do not, read the bible at all. They are preached to them from it and use pieces of the bible lifted out and claimed to be the spoken word of god.

[Silent3]

35. "Useful", and the Special Truth supposedly found in the Bible...

I have no trouble believing that the Bible contains some moral lessons and other interesting insights here and there in just the same way other literature, including pure fiction, does.

The burden of proof is on anyone, however, who proposes that every bit of the Bible is TRVTH of some sort, be it literal or figurative, truth which simply awaits a "correct" interpretation in order to see the supposed validity therein. That's an extraordinary claim which demands extraordinary evidence.

Doubting the Bible and taking it to be myth with truth and error mixed in, seeing the Bible as derivative in many places where it follows similar form to pre-existing myth and doctrine, is a completely reasonable default position to take until evidence shows otherwise. Such a position is not equally mere "opinion" compared to positions which require more evidence for their support.