Why the skeptic can’t dance

[zeemike]

With the true skeptic thinking the skeptiuc thinks that moving his limbs in wild gyrations is an un-natural thing to do. Who kicks there legs up in the air like that…Who shakes there booty in some childlike ritual out of the deep dark jungle.
People don’t act that way so it is avoided at all cost.

And so Skeptics cant dance, they never learn. And because of their skepticism they miss the overall point of learning to dance…it makes you a chick magnate.

OK all of this is just something I made up but not to deceive but just because I liked the title of it.

What I meant to say is that skeptics can miss a lot because they dismiss thing too readily, and once they have dismissed it they are through with it and will never revisit it…and if they doo revisit it, they are angry that anyone would ever consider it, cause after all, they new it was bogus right away.
But they are missing something that can be important.

And no where is that better illustrated than the case of the skeptic and the bible.
And it goes something like this…the skeptic sits down to find out what this bible is about…. He opens it up to the book of Daniel and starts to read…WTF they through the guy in a fireu furnace and he lives? No way man that can’t happen…. So now I know this book is a bunch of fairy tails and I don’t have time for that….you would have to be stupid to believe this book….yada yada yada…..

And so he will miss the jewels that are there that can be interesting and somewhat amazing in it’s description of our future times. But only the open mind will ever find the treasure.
And perhaps that was the plan all along.

[IntravenousDemilo]

1. You know, another term for a "chick magnate" could be either "pimp" or "Col. Sanders".

:hide:

[zeemike]

10. hmmmm that would fit. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

2. I'm so glad I'm a delta! It must be just beastly being one of those awful gammas!

:rofl:

[zeemike]

8. I think you are too young to be a Gamma n/t

[BlooInBloo]

No, you don't think. That's your whole point. And you're damn proud of it....

Thanks for doing your part to make America stupider! :hi:

[zeemike]

11. Well that is what I am hear for ,,to make America dumber

Dumb de dumb de

[Speck Tater]

3. Wow! I never saw so many misspellings in one post.

"Who kicks their legs..."
"Who shakes their booty..."
"...a chick magnet..."
"...they threw the guy in a fire..."
"...a bunch of fairy tales..."

If you want to be taken seriously on an academic subject then it behooves you to not spell like a moran.

Yes, the many folks who wrote and rewrote and edited and compiled and discarded the books of the Bible did, indeed, steal many gems of wisdom from other cultures and other fairy tales.

So did the author of "The Three Little Pigs" which contains this most important gem of wisdom: "...and they lived happily ever after." Clearly the skeptic who dismisses The Three Little Pigs is missing out on a lot of useful wisdom.

[zeemike]

7. Then you have never lived then

You don't know the pleasure of just letting the juices flow.

PS I used the spelling checker just for you.

[Mojambo]

4. "and once they have dismissed it they are through with it and will never revisit it"

I believe this line to be complete nonsense.

Given appropriate evidence a skeptic won't hesitate to change their views.

And I hate dancing. Dancing is for attention whores.

[zeemike]

9. By golly I knew someone would understand me. n/t

[Warpy]

5. Nice load of crap

This skeptic realized a long time ago that dancing is about how you feel, not about how you look. Most of the non dancers this skeptic has had the misfortune to encounter have been uptight WASP men, pillars of their churches, who were terrified of how they might look to other people. This skeptic doesn't give a shit. That's not what it's about.

This skeptic has read the bible cover to cover, every word, even all the "begats," and found lots of interesting stories, a window onto a Bronze Age culture that no sane person would ever want to repeat, and the story of a socialist rabblerouser who was successful enough to incur the ire of not one but two ruling elites and get executed. This skeptic also has read about Mithras and Zoroaster and Hercules and realizes fully where all the mythic bullshit surrounding a very cool guy came from.

This skeptic has also read through the sacred texts of other cultures. All have had their moments of truth and poetry. None has been particularly convincing as the sole basis of the universe.

This skeptic realizes that people who live their lives in fear of some sort of retribution after they've suffered and died are missing one hell of a lot of life while they try to bribe their way out of it with prayers and protestations of belief.

So there. Howdya like them apples?

Instead of insulting skeptics, why not work on what's wrong with your own life? Instead of painting with a broad brush and accusing other people of being too lumpish and dim to realize the beauty and perfection that is your life, why not just enjoy it?

We'll allow it. We're busy with our own.

[zeemike]

12. You do know that I was just teasing about the dancing don't you

And I submit for your critique that if you read the bible to learn about a bronze age culture you are missing the point.

And that is my point and I know that I made it in a way that was provocative but isn't that why you dance?

[Mythsaje]

15. The point of the bible?

You mean it's NOT the story of a culture that adopted a stern father figure of a deity who, although omniscient and omnipotent, hungers for the worship of beings lesser than himself, who allegedly created those beings to be his soldier-slaves, to murder and make war on their neighbors in his name?

The New Testament is supposed to redeem the Old, but it's quite the herculean task to redeem a mad god, wouldn't you agree? Not even Christ really manages to pull it off. The Gnostics saw it that way. Their interpretation makes at least as much sense as any other.

[zeemike]

16. No it is not

And that is why you don't get what I am saying.
It is not about that at all.
There are many stories in the bible and every one of them is diferent...it is not one continuous book although it is organized in chronological order.
And just like the story of Pandora's box it has a deeper meaning that will be missed if you dwell on whether it was a box or a jar.

[ulysses]

6. I can't dance, but I do anyway, and with some fervor if I'm soused enough.

To carry your analogy, I'm the dancing equivalent of a Hare Krishna.

[zeemike]

13. Well merry Christmas to you too n/t

[Ian David]

14. If your mind is TOO open, your brains might fall out when you dance. n/t

[zeemike]

17. i know that has happened to me before n/t

[Random_Australian]

18. Yay! I'm a fairytale daydream person!

Or at least I assume so, from your post.

You could, y'know, find out something about me or the rest of us skeptics rather than post an attack on a version of us likely pulled from a daydream.

Seriously, you think I'm that simple? That I'm some kind of moron who dismisses things out of hand?

In case you wanted to know (ie. in case your posting style is incredibly misleading and there is some kind of desire for knowledge in there), I actually use a null/evidence versus the null system.

Also, I might point out that if you want to start a discussion, telling a group of people how they think and act isn't the right way to go about it.

[TZ]

20. Thank you. I was about to flame the OP

But you put it quite nicely.
However because I am quite irritated anyway, let me put it bluntly. How the HELL do you know what the fuck I or any other skeptically person thinks or believes?
Talk about an insulting piece of flamebait trash.

[zeemike]

25. You are too late... my ass is already fried. n/t

[zeemike]

22. Is there really a right and wrong way to go about it?

If that were true then things like satire and sarcasm would never be used because it is by design wrong.
And seriously I know that you are not that simple. If you were that simple you would never have bothered to read this post much less actually answer it.
And I am getting to know you..and by the way I just love that Aussie accent. Especially the g'days and that you call your friends mates...it sounds so nautical.
What is the null system? I have no knowledge of such things and try not to Annalise any thing in a scholarly fashion. I am a hands on learner.
A dyslexic that relies more on feeling than on sight.

[Random_Australian]

36. Eh, sight sucks anyway. Stupid eyes.

Simply put (because I am only taking a short break from exam study), the null system is basically about collecting a series of tested and known things, and then trying to disprove them. In the meantime, I lack belief in things not in the null and believe things that are in the null.

Importantly, each new claim against the null is tested seperately - if a book makes a series of claims, then I won't care about what it has said previously when I read a new claim.

[zeemike]

38. The problem I see is that we know so little of the known world.

Take for instance electricity we know how it works and how to use it but when you get down to the real forces that make it work we have little knowledge about them.
Now I know that there are lots of complex theories like string theory but they are just that...theroys not fact.
The truth is that this universe is way too complicated for us to say that we really know how it works. For every thing we discover there are ten that arise that we do not know.

But that is where the open mind comes in. Never say that you have the definitive answer to anything because to do so is to fool yourself with your own mind.

[Random_Australian]

39. Ffft, I'm working in descriptions. When we get down to the real forces that make it work,

we can describe them accurately.

In fact, I often wonder why people think there is somehow "more" that you need to say, or that complexity has anything to do with anything.

Fun fact: You can make a very complex system from a few simple rules. You can't just claim "oh look, that's complex, therefore you can't explain it".

What I'm getting at is the idea that by just knowing a few things, you can say a lot about the universe. And the idea that one must constantly challenge that is hardly going to keep you idle or make you closed-minded.

Never say you need the definitive answer; there's never been one to any question, ever. You don't need them to not believe something.

But yes, every time we include something in the null, that is another thing to take an evidence hammer to.

Edit: spelling.

[zeemike]

41. Well that is an interesting way to approach it

And perhaps you are right that you can describe something with a just a few points of knowledge.

But I can also do that with the question of whether there is a God or not by using a few points to show that there is a spiritual world and that we exist in that world as well as this one and go there when our physical bodies are worn out. Showing that convincingly would imply that the concept of God may well be true.
But that is much different than proof right?

But just some background on me.
I was raised a Roman Catholic but had an interest is science and astronomy and by about 15 I was an atheist. And a pretty damn good one if I do say so myself. I spent many an hour arguing my position with Christians and in many cases destroyed their arguments, and who knows, I may have even converted some of them.

But in my late 20s I had a transforming experience (that I will not go into now) that changed my thinking dramatically in just a few weeks. And I started to read spiritual literature including the bible and a whole lot os Eastern Mysticism books and suddenly was able to understand what was being said.
Yes I have done LSD and no I was not using when I had my experience. Although it may be that my use of psychedelic drugs may have opened the door.

What I believe is missing from science is that they dismiss the possibility of a spiritual world, when the facts may well be that this is another dimension in our universe that is unknown to us because of it's religious implications and science has the mind set that it could not be true because the followers of religion have such strange ideas and dogmatic ideals.
It is the fundamentalist that make us all appear to be stupid and foolish by there dogmatic precepts. And that is tragic because Jesus was not like that at all and yet they claim to follow him.

[Random_Australian]

44. Well, I'm here as a scientist (well, in training) to say that isn't what we are thinking.

It comes down to how much information these concepts hold - it is true to say things might be very different to what we think they are, but if you can't make predictions, then what more do you know that just a bunch of phenomena?

Same problem with God; if you say "God did x,y,z,q,w" and then I ask you what will happen in circumstance "r", you can't say a thing. When you are working only in descriptions like I have been talking about, this means that "God did x,y,z,q,w" is the same as "x,y,z,q,w happened", and since we tend to remove anything we don't need, this means that the God gets cut out. (In other words, we tend to use the smallest description we can)

That is what is happening, not "science has the mind set that it could not be true because the followers of religion have such strange ideas and dogmatic ideals".

Other things:

I wasn't going to accuse you of tripping on LSD. Of course, I do believe human brains make errors all the time.

"But I can also do that with the question of whether there is a God or not by using a few points to show that there is a spiritual world and that we exist in that world as well as this one and go there when our physical bodies are worn out."

Would you be upset if these points didn't actually show anything? Because I'd like to hear those, but I'm likely going to try and show they are wrong by any fair means, (my default stance) and I dislike upsetting people.

[zeemike]

45. I can assure you that noting you say will upset me

For the reasons I have already told you. Besides you do not seem the type that would insult someone just to see them flip out.

I have to admit I had to read through that x y z thing three times to see what your were getting at. So if you say it works for you to do that OK then but I don’t apparently think in that way.
I once was told by a teacher that there are two types of learning; there is part to whole learning and then there is whole to part learning. With the first one you teach the parts and then put the whole together for them, These type of learners are the most common. But in the whole to part learners you teach the whole concept first and then the parts fall easily into place in there mind. I am that second type of learner. I must understand the concept first before any of the parts make sense to me.

And yes I guess the mind can make mistakes as you call them, but I realy don’t think that there are any mistakes and that every thing happens for a reason.
But what if this mistake of the mind is confirmed by physical evidence not just once but several times until you had to believe it?

Point one; The physical world is full of contradictions and is a mystery wrapped in an enigma surrounded by a riddle. What is the largest number? What is the smallest fraction? What is beyond the known universe? What is the smallest particle and what is that particle mad of? How does the most basic force in the known universe, gravity, work?
None or these questions will have a satisfactory answer. Why is that? Now I am not asking you to answer any of these questions but what I am suggesting is that the fact that they do not have a satisfactory answer is that there is more to the universe than just the 4 dimensions that we know about. And that other dimension is the spiritual world, or as the eastern mystics call it the Astral world.
And in fact they go farther than that. They say there are 7 levels divided into the two categories where the lower 4 are still in time and space and the upper 3 beyond time and space, and it is there where we become one with the God force. Or they say we become one with God and therefore eternal. And further that is where we came from and where we will eventually return, but in the mean time we give existence to God. .

OK that is enough, start dismantling me.

[Random_Australian]

73. Ok, back from exams!

Point one:

A) There is no largest number - the Reals are not only infinite but uncountably so; and the complex numbers aren't even orderable.

B) For the same reasons, there is no smallest fraction.

C) Particles don't actually have a size, you know. It's just a useful approximation to say so. However, the wavefunctions are infinite in extent. (More or less)

D) Curving space + inertia is how gravity works.

E) Even if I hadn't been able to answer these, it doesn't mean anything.

For instance, if I were to point at a phenomena, and neither of us could understand what could possibly make it (eg. a glowing orb of light apparently floating a couple of meters above the ground), then does that give any credence to the idea that it's an alien spying sphere? No. Was there anything special about the choice of "alien flying sphere"? No. It works the same for any proposed explantion of something.

In other words, not being able to explain something is just that - you can't add meaning to it even by saying "it might be caused by x"

"But what if this mistake of the mind is confirmed by physical evidence not just once but several times until you had to believe it?"

I was referring to errors in your mind pertaining to logical processing. Nearly by definition, you won't have realised you've made these.

Therefore, your statement is equivalent to "if there were some kind of error in my logic that I had been unable to detect, surely I would know about it".


"that the fact that they do not have a satisfactory answer is that there is more to the universe than just the 4 dimensions that we know about"

I'm certain there is more as well. However, I'm also fairly certain that we have zero information about the parts we don't know about, and since anything we say about those parts contains as much information as we know, anything said about those parts will contain no information.

And that is exactly what we see in the next paragraph:

"And that other dimension is the spiritual world, or as the eastern mystics call it the Astral world.
And in fact they go farther than that. They say there are 7 levels divided into the two categories where the lower 4 are still in time and space and the upper 3 beyond time and space, and it is there where we become one with the God force. Or they say we become one with God and therefore eternal. And further that is where we came from and where we will eventually return, but in the mean time we give existence to God. ."

A great way of testing for information content is to make predictions. For instance, gravity says "for all masses seperated by any distance d, the force on them is proportional to the product of the masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance"

So, try and rewrite that last paragraph, or anything in it, as "for each (whatever you want), we will expect (some at least theoretically measureable effect)"

You can try and show that it contains meaning lots of other ways, of course. For instance, carefully defining what each of those things is (even if it is only in relation to other things) would be good enough.

[zeemike]

74. What you mean to say is that you have zero information

Which is quite different than saying that the information does not exist.
But you are right the answers do not mean anything.
Where is the evidence for curved space? and even if space is curved what is beyond that curved space or does that curved space go on to infinity and when did it ger curved to begin with, before the big bang or after it?

"you can't add meaning to it even by saying "it might be caused by x"
And yet you fully believe that there is meaning is saying that gravity is caused by the curve in space. It seems contradictory to me to believe one thing that is only speculation but not the other. So your mind is working on the assumption that the scientific theory being taught to you is actually fact and cannot possibly be wrong, because your teachers and researchers are so smart.
And that is OK. You must have faith in them in order to get passing grades in school, but too great a faith can close off the mind to a lot of things, as AI am sure you would agree happens with the religious fundies.

A great way of testing for information content is to make predictions....
"So, try and rewrite that last paragraph, or anything in it, as "for each (whatever you want), we will expect (some at least theoretically measurable effect)"

Once again I had to re read that several times to see what you were getting at.
And what I understand is that you think that the only truth lies in measurable effect.
But what I am talking about is that which is unmeasurable to you and science, although there is subtle evidence which cannot be confirmed by instrumentation and therefore does not exist to the totally scientific scholar.

Now it may sound to you that I am dissing science and it's methods and I am not. Science is important and should be conducted with firm principles, but what I am saying is that scientific observation is not the end all and definitive answer to everything.

I understand the concept of God and the creation in a much different way than you do. and it may well be that I will never be able to transfer that understanding to you.
But that is life. we all have different paths in this world and thank god for it.

[Random_Australian]

77. Uh uh uh! No chance.

"What you mean to say is that you have zero information"
What I mean to say is 'we' have zero information, I stated a general case, not one that applies to only me.

"Where is the evidence for curved space?"
Advance of the perihelion.

"and even if space is curved what is beyond that curved space or does that curved space go on to infinity and when did it ger curved to begin with, before the big bang or after it?"

What is beyond space? Currently, undecided between finite-but-unbounded (think of an insect crawling over a balloon - it will never meet a boundary, but it doesn't have an infinitely large surface to crawl over) or truly open - space that goes on for ever.

It is a property of space to be curved when mass is present. Therefore, the answer is "at the big bang, when space started"

"And yet you fully believe that there is meaning is saying that gravity is caused by the curve in space."

I went over the system, did I not? It makes testable predictions, therefore it is meaningful.

"So your mind is working on the assumption that the scientific theory being taught to you is actually fact and cannot possibly be wrong, because your teachers and researchers are so smart."

No. No it is not. Like I freaking said, testable predictions, then testing those. I'm not some kind of moron, ok? It might have been a better idea to ask me how I came to my conclusions, rather than tell me. You'll learn more. Science gets nowhere from sheep who just believe. No-one ever was interested in just telling us stuff. Every step is backed by evidence, and the means of testing things are themselves tested. Especially in the real world - we do a lot of lab, and a great deal of that is learning the difference between coming to the right conclusion and fooling yourself.

Finally, the last thing I'd like to say is: "that which cannot be measured, cannot be held to exist". Consider, say, a universe, and a universe in which giant aliens walk around, but they never change anything. In fact, they never can interact with anything by any means ever. They just float straight through.

What is the difference between the aliens existing and not existing? Nothing.

In other words,
aliens exist = aliens do not exist
ie. aliens do not exist.

Now apply the same argument to an unmeasureable God, and you'll see where I am coming from.

[zeemike]

78. It is zero information because of the rules

That says "that which cannot be measured, cannot be held to exist".
And th reason I did not ask you how you came to those conclusions is first because I know what the rules are and secondly it does not matter to me,
I am absolutely sure that your conclusions are based on measurable things and so no need to explain.

But there is other information that is not based on measurable things which will be dismissed even though the information has been around as long as written history, and perhaps long before that.
But I do not expect you to accept any of it. and would not wast your time trying to explain it to you.

All I want you to take away from this conversation is that there are different ways of thinking, the type that analyzes and compiles and the type that follows feeling and intuition.
If you feel that the former is the right way to go then go for it, but please do not dismiss so readily the later because I am not the only one that thinks that way and it is not as crazy as you might think.

[Random_Australian]

79. Hmmm, ok, we are not getting far.

Eh, worth another try.

It is zero information because it can describe no more than the observations used to formulate the idea.

I wasn't particularly concerned with you not asking how I came to conclusions - it was more the telling me that I simply assumed teachers were never wrong that bothered me.


"But there is other information that is not based on measurable things which will be dismissed even though the information has been around as long as written history, and perhaps long before that."

I never said anything to the contrary; I asked you to show me that the various concepts and ideas you were using were even meaningful.

"All I want you to take away from this conversation is that there are different ways of thinking, the type that analyzes and compiles and the type that follows feeling and intuition."

And lots of other ways of thinking. I'm analytical, remember? The chances of me not at least attempting to work out what the various ways of thinking are are pretty small.

"If you feel that the former is the right way to go then go for it, but please do not dismiss so readily the later because I am not the only one that thinks that way and it is not as crazy as you might think."

A) Feelings don't count. Testing the various ways of thinking is far more important.

B) I don't dismiss the latter - I give them every opportunity to show their ideas are meaningful.

C) And no, I don't think you are crazy.

[zeemike]

80. Have you ever asked yourself, who made this rule?

And should it be universally applied?
The rule that says “nothing should be considered if it can’t be measured” (my paraphrase) is intended to limit .Which is not a bad thing if you are building a bridge or designing a device, or trying to heal the human body. If you are doing that then by all mans, please consider what can be measured and confirmed.

But our life is not all building bridges, important as it is. Life has deeper textures than that and the rule can interfere with the fullness of life if that rule is universally applied in your life.

There are such things as feelings and intuition even if they can’t be measured. And most people in the creative arts act on those two things and some even feel that they have a muse that guides them. The Muse you will say is just your brain doing a whirly gig in your scull because you could never show that a muse exists, but yet its effect is apparent to the artist who has one.

And please don’t get the idea that I am trying in any way to put you or science or school down, I am not. Science is a wonderful thing and is the foundation of our civilization, and we rely on it like we rely on the bridge over the water. And I am really glad you are perusing it as a career.

And I can only paraphrase what Socrates said:
I have noting to teach you, I can only make you think.

[Random_Australian]

81. Of I thought "who made the rule" - then I decided it didn't matter.

It's not "who came up with it" that is important, it is whether or not it is true. So, I simply test the rule.

"Life has deeper textures than that and the rule can interfere with the fullness of life if that rule is universally applied in your life."

I have enough pragmatism to realise this, and enough realism to know that this means my ideas of life are at best approximations.

I'm not saying that it is easy to accurately or precisely deal with things like emotions; in fact it is normally the case that we can't.

This doesn't mean that the imprecise notions we use are accurate or true, far from it. Simply that they are useful.

That is what I am trying to say.

[Evoman]

19. I'm a fucking good dancer.

Mostly because I don't give a shit what other people think, and I've got good timing. I can salsa, cha cha cha, rhumba, and swing. I can also pull off a decent waltz and foxtrot when I'm pressed.

I'd rather dance than read the bible again, that's for fucking sure, lol.

As to being a chick magnet..who knows. I'm never sure what the ladies like more about me....my dancing, or the fact that I don't give a shit. Maybe both?

[TZ]

21. Damn I didn't know you could dance Evoman

I can do all those dances too and I'm quite good (thought about competing). Maybe the OP should be about how well Skeptics dance...:)

[zeemike]

24. Don't put any crazy ideas in my head n/t

[zeemike]

23. It is probably both

Girls seem to like the bad boys...the ones that don't give a shit. Why is a mystery to most men.

[knitter4democracy]

26. Have you taken lessons?

Hubby and I have talked about taking lessons. I honestly can't dance at all, though I'd like to be able to.

[Evoman]

27. Yeah, I have.

I've taken about 3 latin dance classes, 2 swing classes, and 2 classes on the classic ballroom dances. But I'm Latino, and my I've been dancing at family gatherings since I was a little kid.

I'm a good dancer...especially at bars or weddings or whatever. I'm not up to snuff on the ballroom dancing, though, and I certainly could never compete without years of classes. I've only taken classes as an adult, and you have to start earlier. Although I did very well in the classes and my teachers really like me......

[knitter4democracy]

32. I'm. so. jealous.

I really can't dance much at all. *sigh*

[ZombieHorde]

28. I have always loved the story of the Tower of Babel.

I am not a Christian, but I think about that story very often.

Many Bible stories make more sense if you assume that God can not think or reason.

It removes much of the cruelty from the stories.

[zeemike]

29. Or you could look at another way

That God is beyond thought and reason.
Our thinking and reasoning is a manifestation of the physical world alone and to ascribe only physical characteristics to God is limiting.

[ZombieHorde]

33. God is only real in our imaginations, so in a way, you could be right.

That said, eternal suffering is eternal suffering.

The Christian God concept is demented.

[zeemike]

34. Eternal suffering is an invention of man not God

And I submit that the suffering of man is on this earth now and has been for as long as we know about.
It is man who makes men suffer not God.

[ZombieHorde]

35. I don't think so

According to the Bible:

1) God made humans the way we are, able to suffer

2) God made everything but himself and water (first few lines of the book), so God made hell, the place of eternal suffering

3) God kicked the kids out of Eden

4) God made childbirth painful for all woman for the deeds of one (which was his fault anyway)

5) God has ordered many killings that would be illegal in todays world, such as after Moses received the 10 commandments

6) God invented weather, which sometimes causes lots and lots of suffering (if God is real then Katrina and others are directly his fault)
God made the flood. Why would he kill all of those kittens and puppies?

7) God made it so many animals eat each other, often times while they are still alive.

[zeemike]

37. All of those things you said are interpretations by men

God created matter which is the the opposite of space
He created light which is the opposite of darkness
He created the yin and the yang
the high and the low, the near and the far, the up and the down the east and the west, the good and the bad. life and it's opposite death..are you starting to see a pattern here?
One cannot exist without the other that is the nature of our reality like it or not. we live in a universe that has a duality about it.
If you want to escape from evil or suffering then you must find a way to go beyond time and space, and that is the ultimate goal of man to evolve to an existence beyond time and space...or to put it in religious terms become a part of God the creator.

But in the mean time we can create a much more pleasant world just by doing one simple thing...following the ten comandments...nothing else is required and if we all did it we would have a truly great America and a peaceful world.

[ZombieHorde]

40. the high and the low, the near and the far, the up and the down the east and the west, the good...

the high and the low, the near and the far, the up and the down the east and the west, the good and the bad

These are just concepts. They have nothing to creating animals that need to feed off of others.

One cannot exist without the other

This is only true for contrasting concepts. Duality is just a concept. One animal eating another is an actual event.

[zeemike]

42. If duality is just a concept name me one thing that has no opposite

With the concept of life and death in the physical world life is sustained by death. Even if you eat only plants life is sustained by death of the plants.
The purest form of sustaining life would be i suppose to eat only seeds and fruit, but still the seeds are alive and so is the flesh of the fruit until it is picked.
You could of coarse starve yourself to death but in your death you would feed the worms or your ashes would feed the grass and plants where they were scattered.

As long as we are in the physical world we will have this duality and we must do our best to deal with it, but blaming god for it is does not really make sense.

[ZombieHorde]

46. Snuffalufagus. The letter C. Black Holes. Pizza. Occam's razor. Woot. The Tao. Pandora's Box.

I tried to pick things that you could have fun with.

Perceived opposites are just another way of organizing your world. You could do it by alphabetical order as well.

but blaming god for it is does not really make sense.

My thread is not about blame, my thread is about creating animals that need tot eat other animals.

[zeemike]

47. You do know what I was talking about

But that is a good dodge.
Except for the black hole of course who's opposite would be I guess a supper nova.
All the rest are just words created by man that may or may not refer to the components of our universe.
But you did get answers to your question, but you just did not like them.
And I remind you that this is a religious forum so how could your question be only about teeth and the necessity to eat?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. Why would the opposite of a black hole be a supernova?

And how is a pizza different than a black hole in regards to "words created by men that may or may not refer to the components of our universe?"

[zeemike]

50. Pizza is mater and it's opposite is space

A snufelupagus is another way to say a living elephant and the opposite of it would be a dead one, and a dead one is matter and you already know that answer. see where I am going with this?
A black hole is where matter descends and a nova is where mater is expelled.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. So the opposite of everything is space?

What's the opposite of space? Is it pizza, or snufelupagus?

"A snufelupagus is another way to say a living elephant"

A snufelupagus talks, so it can't be the same as living elephants.

"and the opposite of it would be a dead one"

Is the opposite of Abraham Lincoln just dead Abraham Lincoln? I thought the opposite of Abraham Lincoln was Evil Lincoln. Please clarify.

"A black hole is where matter descends and a nova is where mater is expelled."

But a black hole is black, so wouldn't the opposite of a black hole be a marshmallow?

If the opposite of a nova is where something descends, wouldn't that be an elevator going down?

"see where I am going with this?"

Yes, I think so.

The opposite of the Letter C = the number 46. Because the letter C is pronounced "see," and "forty six" doesn't have either an "s" or an "e" (all three.)

The opposite of Tao = The S&P index. Because "tao" is pronounced "Dow."

The opposite of "woot" would be "1337" for obvious reasons.

The opposite of Pandora's Box would be Pandora's Anus.

And the opposite of "Occam's Razor" is this thread.

Did I get that right?

[zeemike]

53. Yes I see where you are going with this

A semantical word game
Black is the absence of light and it's opposite is light.
( I did not know this ) but of a snufalupagus is a cartoon character then it is creative imagination and it's opposite would be no creative imagination.
The Tao is a book of wisdom, if you are talking about the book then it is matter if you are talking about the wisdom then it's opposite would be ignorance.
I do not know what Woot is but so what.
Occam's razor is a way of analyzing things and it's opposite is not to analyze things but to live in the now.

[ZombieHorde]

49. But you did get answers to your question, but you just did not like them.

Actually, I don't understand most of them. I was hoping for something like: God made some animals need to eat other animals because (insert response here).

The answers I did understand are the ones that say that you need bad for there to be good. Do we need the Iraq war?

And I remind you that this is a religious forum so how could your question be only about teeth and the necessity to eat?

I was trying to separate man made situations from creator made situations.

But that is a good dodge. --- just words created by man that may or may not refer to the components of our universe.

No dodge involved. All of those things are components of our universe. Duality is just a way to organize our perceived world.

edit to add: did we switch treads here? If so, ha ha on us.

[zeemike]

52. That is where free will comes in to play

We have the knowledge of good and evil and part of our learning is to avoid as much evil as we can and do as much good as we can.
No the war is evil. and even the war of ww1 was evil but sometimes in this life we must participate in evil things, but wisdom makes us realize it and not enjoy it like some do.
But duality is a fact not just a way of organizing things.

Sometimes when I get to posting a lot I louse track of what thread I am in, but it does not matter much to me.

[ZombieHorde]

54. But duality is a fact not just a way of organizing things.

What makes you think that it is more than just a handy organizing tool?

Sometimes when I get to posting a lot I louse track of what thread I am in

It is bound to happen.

We have the knowledge of good and evil

Does your God have knowledge of good and evil?

[zeemike]

55. What makes you think that it is more than just a handy organizing tool?

Math, science, astronomy, and common sense.

Does your God have knowledge of good and evil?

Yes....remember in the story the serpent told Eve that god did not want them eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because she would become like god.

[ZombieHorde]

56. Math, science, astronomy, and common sense.

A little vague for me. Perhaps if you could tell me the opposites of the things that I posted earlier, I could see how math, science, and astronomy applied to duality.

Personally, I don't believe in dualities as something other than a sometimes handy concept. Take male/female for example. It seems like a duality, but only if you ignore transgendered people and hermaphrodites, who's gender is every bit as valid and wonderful as male/female in my view . If you have to ignore, then it may not be honest.

Day and night is another example. It seems as clear as day and night that day and night are dualities. Yet astronomy teaches us that it is really just the Earth going around the Sun. They are not two separate things.

Yes....remember in the story the serpent told Eve that god did not want them eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because she would become like god.

Do you know why god made some animals with the need to eat other animals? If you don't know, that's fine, I understand that that is a part of faith. Though I have been enjoying having my beliefs about duality challenged. :pals:

[zeemike]

59. Male and female are not opposites

However there sex organs are ether internal external or both.
And the fetus are all born identical and only become male or female later in the womb.
Day and night refers to the position of the sun in respect to the earth
Light and darkness are opposite because darkness is the absence of light.

But I would ask you an equally provocative question; Do you know why time is?

And I do congratulate you on going through all of this with me with good humor and showing no anger or resentment...that is soooo refreshing to see.

[ZombieHorde]

60. Do you know why time is?

Time is a sequence of events. Without time everything would happen at once.

[zeemike]

61. That is what time is not why time is

And teeth are tools for eating without them we would starve.

[ZombieHorde]

62. That was part two of my response.

"Without time everything would happen at once."

As far as the origins of time, I don't know.

I am not familiar with any current major religious views on time.

[zeemike]

63. Can you imagine everything happening at once?

Not hardly right?
No more so than you can imagine infinity, but still you understand the concept of it.
And if one were timelessness having no beginning or end then that would make you, ___________ (fill in the blank.)

[ZombieHorde]

64. timelessness having no beginning or end ...(fill in the blank.)

The lines at the stores the day after Thanksgiving.

-or-

Existence in general.

-or-

My hunger for pizza.

[zeemike]

65. Your hunger for pizza will wain when you louse your teeth

You can gum a banana but you can't gum a pizza.

But you are right our existence may well be without end.

[ZombieHorde]

66. lose your teeth

I will just hire someone to chew my pizza for me and then spit it into my mouth.

our existence

I was referring to existence in general.

[zeemike]

68. And if you could not afford a personal chewer

You could use a blender...I hear pizza smoothies are really good.

[ZombieHorde]

72. use a blender

Now your just being gross.

[moggie]

57. Mmm, supper nova...

I'll have one Supper Nova and Cosmic Fries to go, please.

[zeemike]

58. Would you like to super size those cosmic fries? n/t

[moggie]

30. Posting while drunk?

Rarely a good idea.

[zeemike]

31. You mean they give tickets for PWI now?

Besides you don't have to be drunk to be silly.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Huh?

I'm sorry, isn't it religious fundamentalists who like to ban dancing?

[Occam Bandage]

67. Drunk and stupid is no way to go through Democratic Underground, son.

[zeemike]

69. Yes Daddy O

I will straiten up and fly right...or should that be left?
And do my homework every night, so I can be just like you dad, you know I wanna be like you.

[Occam Bandage]

70. I take it you've never seen Animal House.

[zeemike]

71. I have but it was long ago

The only thing I remember about it was John Belushi

[immoderate]

75. The opposite of skepticism appears to be disorganized thinking.

And the result of that, predictably, is unpredictable results.

I'm a skeptic and a dancing teacher.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

--IMM

[elshiva]

76. A Jack Chick magnet?