What does an onion "know"?

[HamdenRice]

Darn! I just poured myself some coffee, but the milk was not just sour, but coagulated into something like cottage cheese! It's 98 degrees here in the big apple.

Funny thing is, that I don't think my fridge is necessarily warmer than usual.

This reminds me of something strange about the vegetable drawer in my kitchen cabinets -- and probably yours. Ever notice how your onions will sit dormantly in their dark, temperature controlled drawer all winter, and then as soon as spring comes, they will start to go goey and try to sprout? Even though your kitchen does not reflect the changes in temperature and sunlight outdoors?

What does your onion know about the world outside its sunlight and temperature controlled environment?

[jakem]

1. well,... they do have layers...

[Bob Dobbs]

2. We will learn in the future that the elements of nature are quite wise

in ways stupid humans can't comprehend. We will learn that The Spirit Moves in All Things. That our hubris driven abuse of this planet (also a wise being) and all the sentient beings on it for our self consumed short term benefit was the worst possible sin imaginable.

I pray that our race can evolve enough to see these truths before we extinctify ourselves.

Perhaps it is too late, already.

[HamdenRice]

4. I have a friend who is high level biochemist...

who believes the same thing. He says, basically, that when you look at how intra-cellular organic chemicals behave, especially enzymes, you can't explain it as enzymes randomly encountering substrate. He says the organic molecules "know" what to do. That caused him to become a Buddhist, and he believes all things have some kind of "consciousness."

Not sure I agree with him, but the every day behaviors of living things, including the behavior of my wonderful golden retriever, don't fit into a "materialist" paradigm. Nor does the behavior of my onions.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Not a very high level biochemist...

Because you can easily explain enzymes and randomly encountering substrates.

Forms the whole basis of enzyme kinetics.

[uberllama42]

26. I like this discussion we're having

of high-level scientists and low-level scientists. It makes it easier to understand what to believe. In fact, I think we should start licensing scientists on those terms, high-level and low-level. Like character levels in a video game. The higher a scientist's level, the more powerful he is. Y'know, like in Scientology.

What could be wrong with that system?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. Sure.

It's like scientists with PhDs. Or with Masters. Or Bachelors. Or in the 12th grade. Or 11th...

Or pretend to on the internet.

[HamdenRice]

34. He's at Rockefeller

I've read some of his peer reviewed publications. I'll take his word over an anonymous poster on a message board.

[greyl]

35. What are you? nt

[HamdenRice]

36. An anonymous internet poster

But the guy at Rockefeller isn't from my perspective, and that's what the question was -- who I believe.

I'm not an imaginary telepathic gorilla and therefore I don't expect to convince you of anything.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. Do his bosses know he believes in magical enzymes?

Do yours know you believe in argument from authority?

[HamdenRice]

38. You don't know what argument from authority is

You are using the term incorrectly.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. Really?

"He's a high level biochemist from Rockefeller therefore his patently absurd ideas on enzymes have merit" isn't argument from authority?

Which logical fallacy is that then?

Btw, his first name wouldn't be "Luke," would it?

[DeSwiss]

31. "and he believes all things have some kind of "consciousness"

This is true. We are all -- everything -- made from the same "star stuff."

- With attribution to Carl Sagan.....

[John Gauger]

33. The behavior of onions doesn't fit into the materiaist paradigm?

What is the supernatural mechanism that you are proposing that is acting upon the onion? What is the non-material cause for the onion's change in state?

[uppityperson]

7. At 1 time I was a moral vegetarian, then lived in deep woods

Then I was a healthy eating, not wanting to contribute to raising animals in unhealthy and/or unethical conditions, still iving in deep woods. Now I live in the woods, am an omnivore, and raise my own chickens to eat, some veggies to eat, and try to not eat anything that has been raised in unhealthy and/or unethical conditions. Plants, like animals, have something more to them than simple mechanics. When I die I will be happy to feed whomever dines on my body, plant, animals, microbes, the soil.

I don't know what word to use, as they all carry other emotional meanings. Spirit? Soul? A Something?

[HamdenRice]

9. I was wondering what it would be like to be an omnivore...

who only eats animals that have died of old age or near old age. In other words, having chickens for eggs, but only eating chicken from animals that have lived out their lives.

In France and in immigrant neighborhoods (like mine) in the U.S., you can buy old chickens. They are called "fowl" here. The famous French recipe "coq au vin" requires an old chicken (literally "cock or rooster in wine," but really old chicken cooked slowly in wine and stock).

[uppityperson]

28. My oldest hen is 10 and going strong.

It is difficult to predict when they will die, usually get sick and die and I wouldn't want to eat a sick bird. If you could predict, or know why they died, that is a thought. Sometimes food isn't wasted and everything edible is eaten. It's been different here for our lifetime.

Which leads me to the thought of eating pets, since by now Lucy is a pet and I would have a difficult time eating her, knowing her for this long.

[uberllama42]

3. Isn't that a biological question?

It's not really epistemology, is it? It doesn't really have anything to do with religion or theology.

It's an interesting question, but I don't think it belongs here.

[HamdenRice]

5. See post 2. nt

[TreasonousBastard]

6. It's not just onions-- it's us, too...

when it's 20 degrees outside and 65 in the house, it's chilly in here. When it's 80 outside and 65 in here, it's warm. In the winter, even though the house is warm, metal things inside are cold to the touch, while in the summer they are warm to the touch.

I've mentioned this other people and they usually agree this strange phenomenon happens.

There's probably something obvious I'm missing here, since I'm not inclined to woo-woo, but is seems to be a real phenomenon either with temperature or our perception of temperature.

[HamdenRice]

8. I saved 80% on my heating and cooling bills this last year recognizing this!

I realized that I was spending $$$ getting the house down to like 65 in the summer and up to like 78 in the winter.

Why is it that 65 if comfortable in the summer, but wretchedly cold in December? Why is it that 80 is toasty warm in February, but miserably hot in July?

I said to myself last summer, when it's summer it's warm; when it's winter it's cool. The experience of that experiment reminded me of my childhood, before the time that air conditioning was economically feasible for the working class, and it wasn't so bad. A warm sweater probably saved me $2,000 this past winter.

But you are correct, there is something very strange about the perception of living things about temperature based on the outside environment.

[greyl]

10. Acclimation and the relativity of perception. Where's the mystery? nt

[HamdenRice]

11. My onions

don't communicate with me telepathically. I realize that certain people believe in telepathic communication with imaginary gorillas, but I don't, so I wouldn't know whether my onions feel "acclimatized" or have "relativity of perception" in order to sprout.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. Actually, I suspect your onions reacted to the...

increased humidity in springtime when the heat was off.

Just as I suspect that your refrigerator was not quite as cold as you thought it was-- refigerators vary in their insulation and ability to maintain temprature in extreme conditions. I think it's called reserve cooling, or something like that, and when it's hot in the kitchen the fridge could warm up by 5-10 degrees for a while. That can drastically reduce the time to spoilage.

But, yeah, why 70 degreees can feel hot or cold depending on the outside temp is still wierd. And it has little or nothing to do with drafts, although hunmidity might be part of it.

[Silent3]

15. Humans respond to humidity too, of course.

The more humid the surrounding air the less quickly perspiration evaporates. The more slowly perspiration evaporates, the less efficiently your body sheds excess heat. Conversely, in very dry air, which is what you get when you take cold outside air and heat it, your body can shed excess heat efficiently, so efficiently that you may need to crank up the heat to feel warm.

[TreasonousBastard]

29. For years, humidifiers have been sold to help...

with comfort in the winter. Lots of anecdotal evidence that they work, but I don't know of any actual testing having been done.

[Silent3]

32. The anecdotal evidence I'm a little worried about...

...for a humidifier, not a dehumidifier, comes from someone at work telling me she knew a few people who put humidifiers into forced air systems, like what I have now and will have in my new house, and took them out because of mold growth problems.

When I tried to Google for info on that most of what I came up with was about using dehumidifiers to inhibit mold, and the only mention I found about a humidifier and unwanted mold was in an ad for a tankless humidifier, talking about how water tanks -- not the duct work, which was my coworker's issue -- could be a place for mold growth.

[heidler1]

30. The reason for this summer-winter difference is radiant heat.

The outside walls pass or absorb radiant heat to every thing in sight of the walls. The thermostat measures ambient air temperature unless you mount it on an outside wall which is not recommended. The inside temperature of the refrigerator would be influenced by this somewhat.

Onion's life expectancy evolved to be reproductive after a dormant period of being in the ground through the winter these bulb type plants grow naturally in certain climate zones. Humans have used the plants characteristics to human advantage. It is not magic or spiritual it is just a matter of learning what the plant can deal with. The desire to turn planting into green thumb views are bs, but very common.

[greyl]

17. I wasn't talking about your onions.

Also, I don't believe in telepathic communication with imaginary gorillas, as you were clearly implying.
Drop the bone, already.

[HamdenRice]

20. HOLY CRAP!!! "I don't believe in telepathic communication with imaginary gorillas"

Are you willing to go on the record saying you don't believe in telepathic communication with imaginary gorillas??? If so, I'm going to save this URL.

If you don't believe in imaginary telepathic gorillas, are you also willing to go on record to say that deliberately starving millions of people is not a good environmental/demographic practice?

[greyl]

23. I've explained both issues several times. Now, you're feigning ignorance for no good reason.

edit: unless, to you, changing the subject is a good reason.

[Silent3]

14. Humidity

In the summer, without a dehumidifier (I'm making sure the new house we're building now has a dehumidifier as part of the central HVAC) you end up cranking your AC down to a ridiculously low temperature sometimes just to get the excess moisture out of the air.

In the winter the air is very dry, and dry air feels more comfortable at higher temperatures.

Add in the affects of acclimatization and I don't see any need to believe in any mysterious, spooky "connectedness" to the outside world to explain seasonal variations in human comfort at different thermostat settings.

As for your onion, a combination of humidity and internal chemical clocks within the onion are sufficient to explain what you observe.

[charlie]

18. Could also be

that temperature is measured at a single point, usually well within the house. As long as insulation keeps the temp within range at that point, the heater/cooler doesn't kick in. Meanwhile, temperatures nearer the periphery begin to cool/heat long before the change reaches the area around the thermostat. So, the temp really is more consistent in the middle of the house than it is in the bedroom where you're sweating/shivering at the keyboard. IOW, you're really not basking in a cool 65 in the summer or a balmy 80 in winter, but yo-yoing in a middling range between the two.

Visiting a deep cavern like Carlsbad, where the temperature is pretty much constant throughout, can show how quickly the effect of relative perception can wear off. Winter or summer, you'd best bring a light jacket or you'd be uncomfortably chill in a short time.

[Silent3]

21. Good point

In our current house there's only one thermostat, on the ground floor, and it can get pretty chilly downstairs while trying to keep the bedrooms upstairs comfortable for sleeping. We use a programmable thermostat to drop the temperature a few degrees overnight while we're sleeping, but the temperature can go back up during the day to save energy.

Our new house is going to have three separate heating/cooling zones. It's a bigger house, but I'm hoping that the 2x6 construction, improved insulation, and a smarter, newer HVAC system will end up saving us energy even though we'll be heating and cooling a lot more square feet.

[charlie]

22. Oh man, I'd love to have something like that

I can only get zoned heating by shutting doors and closing vents :)

You'll probably not only save money, but will have a more consistent ambient temperature throughout the house. No more popping a beaded sweat before the cooler kicks in, luckyluckylucky.

[uberllama42]

19. Dammit, there you go again

Squashing mysticism with your supposed "facts" and "observations". He already said that material processes can't explain what he's talking about. Why can't you just take that at face value? What's your agenda, huh?

[Silent3]

24. World domination, of course.

Well, that, and crushing all hope and stealing Christmas.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. Or they have a chemical mechanism that can time a change from earlier environmental changes

I don't see that would be particularly strange. :shrug:

[Silent3]

16. And more importantly, when did it know it!?

:)