Does threatening children with eternal torment in hell constitute abuse?

[Fumesucker]

That's the way a lot of children in America are raised, told that if they do any of a myriad of things that kids just naturally do then they will go to hell and suffer eternal agony.

Infinite torture, infinitely prolonged.

And then we tell the same kids that "God is love".

Personally I think it is very damaging to children to tell them things like this in order to coerce them into obedience.

What do you think?

[izquierdista]

1. I think

You have been listening to a lot of George Carlin routines.

"God is love. That's why he created Hell, where you will burn forever if he doesn't like what you do with your privates."

[Fumesucker]

4. Actually no..

The last Carlin piece I listened to was the difference between football and baseball..

[izquierdista]

7. Check him out on Youtube

Lots of good material there on religion.

[rateyes]

2. Threaten with hell, and telling them God is love is like

telling them sex is dirty, so save it for the one you love.

[Phred42]

3. Most religions also attempt Brainwashing - is that Abuse too?

[Fumesucker]

5. So you agree that threatening children with eternal torment

Constitutes abuse?

[Phred42]

14. Absophuckinglutly!

[glowing]

6. I think it depends on the circumstances and the parents and the church..

but.. to a young child, telling them to behave or Santa's going to leave a lump of coal can be just as detrimental to their psyche if you are a crazy, abusive type of parent.. but coming from a good natured parent who wishes them to find peace and love and behaviour and tolerance, is more benign.. Its not black and white.. very gray issues when it comes to religion and beliefs.

[zanne]

8. Actually, I grew up that way...

Though I can laugh about it now, a little voice in the back of my head still tells me I'll burn for eternity. Who was the bishop who said "If we can get to them by the age of six, we have them for life"?

I think that telling little kids stories about how godless foreign invaders might come to your home and kill your parents in front of you is child abuse. But that was a long time ago when child abuse was the norm.

[Fumesucker]

12. That is considered to be a maxim of the Jesuits

There are several versions..

"Give me the child, and I will mould the man."

"Give me the child for seven years,
and I will give you the man."

"Give me the child until he is
seven and I care not who has him thereafter."

"Give me the child till the age of seven
and I will show you the man."

[hyphenate]

9. It's abuse

if the comments are said so often as to make the child completely believe them.

I was raised to eat every single morsel on my plate because kids were "starving in Biafra and other places in the world." And yes, they were, are starving, but not eating every single bit of food on my plate isn't going to help them, either.

Parents threaten, but most kids know that the threats are empty for the most part, but comments reinforced with other forms of "discipline" will make a child believe it all completely, and that is abuse.

Calling kids names and telling them they are nothing but slime is also abuse. Putting a belt to them is abuse. There are many forms of abuse, from emotional, psychological, to physical. Never disciplining a child is also abuse. How many kids grow up to be bullies and criminals because they were never told right from wrong? How many got away with everything? Kids will push the edge of the envelope as hard as they can, and some parents are too lax in their parenting to teach the kids what is appropriate and what is not. No parent is a saint, and no one is a perfect parent, but when it's obvious even by strangers, it's definitely abuse.

[rurallib]

10. Memories of my catholic childhood

Yep, I was scared pretty much every night when I wen to bed that I would die and end up in Hell forever. Then I missed a Sunday Mass at age 14. I was scared to go to sleep, but eventually did. When I woke up the next day not in hell my outlook changed. I had a hotdog that Friday and didn't end up in Hell on Saturday.
When the threats failed to materialize into the expected punishments, I began my slow journey away from the church. Kind of like a battered wife. But the memories of the fear of Hell as a child still come back.

[ourbluenation]

19. memories of my catholic childhood did not include fear of hell

but i was a doubting thomas from the get go and dismissed most of it.

[zanne]

30. The nuns used to tell us that God "called" them to their vocation...

Of course, when I was six or seven, I took that literally. My older sister used to answer the phone and yell "Zanne--it's for you--it's God"! (I spent alot of time under my bed).

[ensho]

11. as a young kid I was told god knew my thoughts and everyone in the

world's thoughts.

well, I thought about that and thought it was impossible. so didn't believe it.

for the kids that believe such stuff and grow to adulthood believing that stuff it is an unnecessary burden on their spirits.

[seabeyond]

13. kids went to a christian private school

with the first it was the first time i had expereinced baptist. i am calif girl and we didnt have lots of baptist. so i didnt catch it with that child. plus he was so good and easy, really wasnt relelvent to him. my second child is a little devil child and a hard child. when he started pre k i noticed immediately the first thing they give to the children is we are all sinners. and they cram and ram it into their head over and over. he was suppose to memorize the verse and i read we are all sinners. i look at the kid and say no way... look at that beauty, that angel, that sweetness, no sinner you

it was immediate without thought and i knew with this child i did not want him to already be told he does wrong giving him an excuse out. i could see him looking at me after doing wrong and say we are all sinners.

my children found a lot of contradictions. lots of hypocrisy over the years.

what i learned was they may talk about their sins but it seemed to me they were awfully forgiving awfully fast, it is all the rest that are sinners to such an extent they are going to hell. theres are forgiven

they felt special. tolds consistently they were gods children and special. they felt above.

it seems to me the we are all sinners is a statement to universe that we have to make this true. saying continually that you are a sinner, eventually you are going to have to become one

[undeterred]

15. A lot of lapsed Catholics tell me that they want their children

to be raised the same way they were raised, so they have something ridiculous to rebel against, and turn out perfect like they are. :shrug:

[Warpy]

18. I once asked my skeptical mother why she'd stuck me in

Catholic school. Her reply, "Because I wanted you to grow up with all the disadvantages I had, dear."

My mother got kicked out of a convent school when she was twelve. I didn't last that long in Catholic school.

[undeterred]

22. So you got the idea!

I'm not Catholic but I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood so a lot of my girlfriends were. My best friend went to a high school called "Immaculate Conception" where 3 of the girls got pregnant freshman year. Her parents pulled her out of there and sent her to public hs with me.

[MindPilot]

16. that's how I grew up; yes it is abusive

I would try to find hiding places where god couldn't see me. I knew that if I was bad god would send jesus to take me away. Add that to the idea that you never know exactly what constituted bad at any given moment and that it was impossible for anyone to ever be good enough for god to like you, it was pretty messed up.

Looking back, yeah, it was abuse.

About the time--around 7--I figured out there was no Santa Claus, it became apparent that god fit the same category of childhood myths to be left behind.

[Warpy]

17. Does threatening them with coal in the Xmas stocking constitute abuse?

I grew up with both threats but was an atheist before I got out of grammar school.

I'd prefer the type of Christianity that concentrated on the Sermon on the Mount instead of cherrypicking the laws in Leviticus. I'd prefer a Christianity that pushed the Golden Rule to the one that allows all types of sin as long as people believe strongly enough, Pauline/Calvinist Christianity.

Perhaps if I'd gotten that instead of Catholic school, I'd have stuck around for the community.

I'll never understand parents who raise their children to fear instead of hope. At least mine recognized the game was over and sprung me from the nuns in a timely manner.

[Fumesucker]

20. Coal in the Christmas stocking..

My father grew up in an unheated house, he never mentioned it but I suspect coal in the stocking would have been welcome..

Those who lived through the Depression had a very different view of things than those of us who have not lived with that level of societal misfortune.

[yellerpup]

21. Teach them science instead.

Religion is manipulative at the very least and abusive most of the time... but only if you believe. Science should be taught first so the child can have a method to deal with religion.

Edit for punctuation.

[Fumesucker]

26. Trouble is...

Most people know even less about science than they do religion.

You can't teach what you don't know anything about.

[yellerpup]

28. It is institutionalizing childhood sexual abuse and using religion as a cover

They should go to school in the community and learn to interact with society. It is necessary for the perpetrators to keep their victims as ignorant and alienated as possible (funny shoes, clothes, hair, etc.) so they don't even realize how backward they are until they try to communicate with someone on the outside. How shocked would you be if you spent your whole life obsessing about going to hell, and that's all your family talked about no matter what the context, and you came out from underground to discover that almost no one else believes anything close to what you've been told about ANYTHING. The victims become manipulators and go through life either begging or bullying because that's all they ever see so that is what they learn -- how to manipulate. They stay in the only place where they fit in. Where do these guys get off calling this cult of personality a religion? Mia Farrow once summed up a smaller scale version of what is going on in Texas. She said, "I told him that no matter what, you don't get to fuck the kids." Seems like that should be pretty easy to remember.

[Fumesucker]

35. I never mentioned the FLDS sect

The FLDS is not the thrust of my post at all..

[yellerpup]

39. I apologize.

[riderinthestorm]

23. Religious brainwashing and indoctrination is a form of abuse imho.

For both children and adults. That kind of conditioning is really damaging.

I'm an atheist and my kids aren't being raised with any kind of religious influence but my closest experience came with Santa Claus. With my first child, I did the whole storyline: Santa was watching her, better be good or no presents etc. etc. When she learned at 7 years old that there wasn't a Santa, she was furious at me. Furious. And rightly so.

I lied to her. She's 20 now and she still remembers how angry she was with me and I still feel pretty ashamed at how that played out. And this was with what society perceives of as a pretty simple social white lie.

Never again. I can't even imagine the kind of emotions that play out when dealing with matters such as heaven, hell, eternal damnation, eternal fire - those are incredibly intense issues and parents are (imho) lying to their children when they indoctrinate them about this stuff especially as it's utilized as a tool of coercion.

[The Straight Story]

24. I think all children should be given to the state. and we should have cameras in our houses

It is the only way to make sure the religion of state can insure others follow our decrees.

Freedom is a threat.

Seriously though, the belief is that God is not all powerful, he has rules to live by and he does not want people going to hell.

But so many have bastardized that that they believe God is all powerful and that others must believe it as well. Especially non believers who don't take the time to research and just assume god can do it all.

Now - is it abuse to tell your kids there is a hell? No. Because there is one. Is is called GDP :)

[The Straight Story]

25. No, telling them using plastic instead of paper will make their children burn under the sun

And then telling them paper is bad because it kills trees, which make them suffer as well.

In fact, some folks tell their kids that just by existing they are bad because they harm they planet.

It does not take a religion to lay on guilt and shame.... ;)

[slowry]

29. Yeah, but that kind of hell is a very real possibility ;).

There's no responsible way to teach children there's a hell for unbelievers, gays, and cartoonists. Teaching environmental awareness is important, and can be done responsibly.

[The Straight Story]

31. So is the other one

I heard it on Coast to Coast AM :rofl:

[VotesForWomen]

27. it's seriously messed up. nt

[LisaL]

32. What's seriously messed up? Aren't those your regular

christian beliefs?

[Fumesucker]

33. Just because they are "regular Christian beliefs"

Doesn't mean they aren't "messed up".

[LisaL]

34. Call CPS and start removing the kids.

:sarcasm:

[BlooInBloo]

36. It's ok tho, because gawd still loves them - while he allows you to be tortured. Sounds like bush.

[pokerfan]

37. "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man."

Thomas Paine

[tom_paine]

38. That may be so, but the answer to the OP is still an emphatic NO.

People have a right to Free Speech. They have the right to pass on religious beliefs or any beliefs to their children, whether we agree or not.

Sometimes, DU goes overboard with some of this stuff and we wind up violating our own "codes" of decency and liberality.

It's disappointing. Now, the OP may not have meant "child abuse" in the legal, prosecutorial sense. If he or she DID mean that, it makes the OP even more awful, antithetic to liberal, American view and the vision of the Founding Fathers.

Even if they did only mean this in a rhetorical sense, it's still a pretty horrible sentiment. people have the right to believe what they want to, and to consider a religious teaching as "child abuse" is wrong.

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. But there's no right to cause your children to believe what you want, at whatever cost to them

There will come a point at which all of will agree a child has been psychologically damaged, if the beliefs and fears induced in them by parents are bad enough. An example may be the current FLDS case in Texas.

[Jim__]

42. The problem in the FLDS case is not the teaching of a belief.

The problem is action. Supposedly, 13 year old girls were impregnated, probably by men over the age of 50. 16 year old girls were force to marry men over age 50. That's abuse.

Teaching children that polygamy is a legitimate practice, in my opinion, is not abuse.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. But their belief is that they have the right to forcibly marry the girls

Warren Jeffs, Rulon's son, was the FLDS headmaster of the Alta Academy, where I attended school. He strictly enforced his father's rules, turning the standard of perfect obedience into a heavy burden. We all feared him. He beat the boys and used humiliation to gain submission. He once hauled a second grader to the front of the class, grabbed him by the ankles, and began to shake him up and down, yelling, "I'm shaking the evil out of him!" Each morning at devotions Jeffs chanted, "Keep sweet! Perfect obedience brings perfect faith!" Then, he gave us a new list of rules to obey: We couldn't wear stripes. We must not wear red. Some days we weren't allowed to eat. He changed the rules daily to keep us in constant fear. One steadfast rule stated girls were never to talk to boys. If you looked or smiled at one, you were a Jezebel—a scorned woman. Since I often looked and smiled, I was in constant trouble.

Sometimes Jeffs snuck up behind me, grabbed me by the scruff of my neck, and whispered, "Are you keeping sweet?" It sent shudders through me. Did he know I'd lost my faith? In tenth grade, my friend Katie and I instigated a water fight with some boys at the drinking fountain. Someone reported our behavior and it proved to be the unpardonable sin. Katie suddenly disappeared. It was rumored she was given the Placement—married off at 15 to an old man she didn't know. I was expelled in disgrace, but I didn't care. I was done keeping sweet.
...
Clinical research has identified emotional problems former cult members often struggle with, such as indecisiveness, depression, loneliness, guilt, and fear. We experienced all these and more. I couldn't make the simplest decisions. I felt guilty about leaving my family. I wanted to help them, but I also feared they would come get me.

I was ashamed I grew up in polygamy. I worried people would find out about my past, so I overindulged in drinking, smoking, and drugs in an attempt to appear worldly. My thoughts mocked me, You're an idiot for leaving! You didn't stay sweet and obey the Prophet! You're going to hell! I sought therapy, but couldn't express my feelings. I wanted desperately to believe in God, yet what had he ever done for me? I tried to read the Book of Mormon, but I didn't believe it anymore.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2006/novdec/12.64.html?start=2

[Jim__]

44. The article you cite doesn't make that claim.

As close as it comes is: It was rumored she was given the Placement—married off at 15 to an old man she didn't know. She may have been taught that she is obligated to marry the man the prophet tells her to marry; but that is not the same as claiming that the man can force her to marry. I do believe that any actual marriage between this 15 year old and some old man she didn't know, does constitute abuse.

And again, it's not the belief, it's the act. If the parents agree that this is a legitimate belief, then I believe they have a right to pass that belief onto their children. I don't believe they have the right to force their children into a marriage.

There probably are beliefs that should be legally abusive to pass along to children. But, it would be extremely difficult to define such beliefs in a law.

[DeSwiss]

46. Which came first?

The chicken or the egg???

[pingzing58]

45. No, it's not abuse. But it is a misuse of religion to try to control a child's behavior.

[and-justice-for-all]

40. Definitely yes..nt

[DeSwiss]

47. The basis of all Abrahamic religions rests squarely upon a foundation of FEAR.

In fact, all religions had their beginnings because of the things that people feared due to their lack of understanding. In prehistory, totems, amulets and engravings of animals were prominent because they were our most immediate threat. But the development and improvement of weapons reversed this trend. And with the successful use of these new weapons, animals began to fear us more than we did them. So their place among the revered spirits was lost.

Additionally, other objects in nature were both feared and loved. The sun that brought warmth and light, also brought drought and death. The waters which quenched thirst and grew crops, also drowned and flooded. The moon which brought light into the darkness, also cast haunting and fearful looking shadows in the night. All were at one time revered and feared.

But later those fears took on a more symbolic meaning, as they became anthropomorphised. The sun became personified and it usually held a similar visage of the leader who was at the nation's helm at the time. And as with human leaders, the most prominent god had weaker deities in his/her court. Religion was practiced as a form of insurance, whereby honoring and sacrificing to the various deities would placate them toward us and result in favorable treatment by him/her in return for that fealty. But is was all predicated upon fear, nonetheless. Fear of what would happen to individuals and whole nations should they fall short in their veneration and sacrifice.

With the Abrahamic religions, a statement from Yahweh that "he loved his creations" never took place. This idea of love of god for his creations did not occur until the advent of Jesus' attributed sayings. While the idea that Yahweh loved his "children" was advanced earlier by the patriarchs and prophets, there is no statement to this effect made directly by Yahweh in the bible until Jesus' appearance in the New Testament.

Issac referred to Yahweh as "The Fear," and with good reason. This same god had used him to test the faith of his father, which took him to the brink of his own death by his father's hand. Yahweh was feared because he killed people. Or he caused or enabled others to kill, rape and pillage in his stead. He was an angry, vengeful and jealous diety. He destroyed whole cities, wiping out the innocent along with "the guilty." And his ultimate act of fear was when he drowned the entire world for the iniquity that he saw in it. Iniquity that he himself was largely responsible for creating. Because it was he who had made these rebellious angels who eventually defied him and join forces with his previously most favored angel, Lucifer.

These angels came down to the earth and raped the women they found, who then later birthed men of great prowess and strength. They were the giants of old. And these devious, giant angel-offspring set the world on a path of evil. So Yahweh became an exterminator. He flooded the world, killing babies and children and all the animals, along with everyone else. All but one wine-lover named Noah and his family were spared. So "The Fear" was a real part of their lives according to this myth.

With the development of Christianity, there was still the constant threat of hellfire and damnation in the background. So even with all this purported "love of god," even to the extent of his sacrificing his own son to prove that love, it was not sufficient motivation. The act of sacrifice which Yahweh had stopped Abraham from committing, he himself followed through with. In a most excruciating manner. So the love of god or its promise, by itself was never enough.

Prior to the appearance of Jesus, there had been no idea or concept of a heaven nor a hell within Judaism. The closest they came to a form of hell was considered to be "a life without blessing," and heaven was to live a life of blessing. Blessing was the only form of immortality. Physical immortality, where a person was "blessed" with abundant progeny. One continued to live through their offspring. It was a life of begetting. Blessing is what Jacob demanded of Yahweh when he wrestled with him all night. He didn't demand to be with Yahweh in heaven. He didn't cry out not to be sent to hell. He asked to be blessed. And Yahweh blessed him and renamed him Israel. And he made from him through his offspring, a nation. As he also did with his half-brother Ishmael, whom he had earlier allowed to be cast out into the desert along with his mother.

So one could argue quite strongly I believe, that the invocation of fear of god's wrath, or of everlasting torment in hellfire is a form of psychological abuse. And of the worst kind. And this is particularly so because such fears can only be held based upon faith. They can neither be confirmed nor proven to be false. Unlike all the other teaching that we give a child which is based upon facts and our own experiences, belief in a god can only be accomplished if it is instilled through the powerful of emotion of fear of what will happen to one if they do not believe. And since we are talking about children who have no other means of learning or understanding life, indeed surviving life except through what they are taught by their parents and other adults, then to teach a child that god and his threats are an absolute -- a fact -- is also a lie in addition to its cruelty.

And it constitutes a continuation of the dilemma of Abraham, wherein each parent who instills these beliefs in their child, is symbolically sacrificing them upon the altar of FEAR.

- IMHO
========================================================================
DeSwiss


http://atheisttoolbox.com/">The Atheist Toolbox

[raccoon]

48. It is abuse. Lots of people use religion to control children, telling them God wants

them to do this or that, or doesn't want to them to do/don't do something, when it's really the parent who doesn't want them to.

Same as the power elite do with the rabble in many societies.

[heidler1]

49. While I do not believe that my parents were abusive, I do believe that

the never rebutted concept of god that children got when I was growing up, 1925 & on, from Sunday School and conversations they over heard is very scary. The fact that there was no rebuttal heard casts doubt on the idea that there was actual free choice to believe or not to believe. I also doubt that very many children today are given both sides of this issue. To believe that free choice prevails regarding religion is quite similar to a belief that children will learn to read by osmosis. Sure there are a few that see the light.

When I was about 4 my playmate was electrocuted while we were playing. I had nightmares of the devil trying to push me into hell with his pitchfork for many years.

[Anon18]

50. Threatening IS ABUSE!

Unfortunately I was brought up in "The Church With No Name/The Truth/The Meetings/The Cooneyites/The Black Stockings" (for a church with no name, it sure has got a lot of names).

From an early age I questioned the hypocrisy I saw evident in the teachings with which I was (unwillingly) brainwashed...ie: (and on the most basic level)...God will not love you as a woman if you wear jewelry or make-up, if you dress in jeans/pants, watch television or listen to radio and GOD FORBID THAT YOU EXPRESS YOURSELF!!

My Mother never had any rational answers to my questions...she just believed that she was doing the right thing for herself and for her children. She thought she was "saving us from eternal damnation in hell"...so did her Father, and his Mother before him.

I left the church and my family home home at 16 years of age. I am now 36 and although the teachings of the church no longer effect my logical mind, something deeper within me constantly struggles with the crippling doctrine that was shoved down my throat which told me I was bad and that I would burn in hell for my supposed sins.

What a crock. As far as I'm concerned, threatening your children with torment in hell is nothing but abuse! Emotional and Spiritual abuses are just as damaging as any physical abuse. The fact that the word THREATEN is used is surmountable to abuse in itself.

The fearful God I was taught about as a child has no place in my life. I'm no sinner. I live my life gently and with utmost consideration for my fellow human beings and the environment. If I am damned to hell for not being part of this so called church, then so be it. I AM GOOD.

"The Truth" is that a child should be allowed the right to grow up with a healthy mind and to decide upon their own very personal beliefs about God etc. in their own time.

I would recommend that anyone who questions whether threatening children AT ALL (especially with religious torment) read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

TEACH YOUR CHILDREN HOW TO THINK....NOT WHAT TO THINK.

[cynatnite]

51. A teacher told my sister she would go to hell for not doing her school work...

so, yes, I'd say so.

[oedura]

52. So far as I'm concerned...

...exposing anybody to religion before the age of 18 constitutes abuse.

[cynatnite]

53. I don't think so...

Telling a kid about Jesus showing compassion or forgiveness isn't abuse. It's telling a kid that they'll go to hell or gawd'll get them if they're bad...that's the abuse.

Religion can be abusive...depending on who is wielding it. It also has benefits as a source of comfort and wisdom.

[oedura]

56. But the thing is...

...you can teach a child about compassion and forgiveness without EVER having to mention Jesus at all.

So why include Jesus with the lesson unless you want to include some patriarchal figurehead the child will feel obliged to pay homage to, whether you implicitly threaten them with Hell or not?

[nemo137]

54. To what extent?

Is that all these hypothetical younglings are being taught? Is the threat of hell broken out for every little infraction, or for "willfulness," or for sexual actions, or what? Is it part of a larger abusive environment?

Even then, is it one parent doing the threatening, or both? Are the children being raised in a church, and if so, what kind? Are they attending religious school?

Furthermore, are you going to try and make this into an argument, as others in this thread have done, claiming that passing any religious beliefs on is child abuse? If you're not, I apologize, but that's the tone these threads tend to devolve into, which leads to questions about where religious liberty ends, and how far the government should step in.

[Bad Thoughts]

55. How about "three strikes and you're out"?

Unprotected sex will lead to VD or AIDS?
If you don't get an education, you'll end up poor.

There's lots of advice that uses the threat of punishment to socially discipline the self. Not all of it is religious. Is that also coercive?