Joan of Arc

[aneerkoinos]

Whatever the founding nationalistic mythology in Anglo-Saxian countries, nothing compares to the Joan and French nationalism. Which by all standards was a true miracle, on the same scale of political impossibility as Mahatma Gandhi. What is interesting, is that the anglo-saxian breed of fascists have been on the losing side on each and every of these miracles.

But back to Joan. She truly is inexplicable, but I have distinct feeling she was a sort of an incarnation of an archetype. Incarnation of the aspects that were right about the nationalism, many hundreds years ago.

[libhill]

1. Interesting post

But I'm not sure about Joans motives - as an agnostic, I have a hard time buying into the "visions from heaven" thing. But there's no doubt that she came along just at the right time in the history of France.

[Snap]

2. The Tribe

I think Joan is more an example of tribalism than nationalism, and tribes have a pretty good idea of who and why they are.

[Spider Jerusalem]

3. Tribalism is the foundation of ethnic nationalism, though.

Although I don't think one can really use the term "nationalism" to describe events of the fifteenth century. I'd say the French Revolution is a better zero point for French nationalism, in any case, as it represents the birth of France as a modern nation-state.

[Snap]

15. Right

I don't know if the difference is a matter of scale or degrees or intention. Tribalism (traditionally/,mostly) was non-genocidal, depending on the neighboring tribes different appearance, tradition, etc. to reinforce their own identities. Perhaps ethnic nationalism projects another more general or more dogmatic layer to bind several tribes together. I think ethnic nationalism tends to develop into ethnic superiority, or national superiority, and the dogmatic binding device tends to be insatiable. (maybe ?)

[REP]

4. Naw, There's Been Clever Women Before and After Joan

Don't misunderstand; I am one of the countless many who greatly admire her, but for her courage and intelligance, not for conversations with saints that the Church struck from its calendar (meaning that, in essence, they never existed, even within the belief structure of the RCC).

There have been many writings on Joan, butone of the best remains George Bernard Shaw's St Joan. I encourage anyone interested in her, in the strongest terms possible, to go get a copy and read it, including the preface and afterword.

[libhill]

5. Is that a bio

Or a play? Just curious -

[Lydia Leftcoast]

6. It's a play, and the best film treatment of Joan *by far* is

believe it or not, a 1928 silent film called The Passion of Joan of Arc, directed by the Danish director Carl Dreyer and starring the French stage actress Renee Falconetti.

I never would have believed that a silent film could be so timeless, so psychologically perceptive, and so gripping.

It shows up on Turner Classic Movies occasionally. Don't miss it.

[libhill]

8. Ugh

A silent movie? Don't recall ever being able to sit through one in all my days - but I do have Turner, I'll see if I can catch it. P.S.- don't waste your time with that recent film about Joan, that film is S T R A N G E !

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. This is like no silent movie you have ever seen

(I don't like most of them either, so I tuned in only because this was supposed to be such a classic. I got hooked.)

By the way, I'm told that the director of Sinead O'Connor's video for "Nothing Compares to You" was inspired by this film.

[REP]

9. Both

The courtroom dialogue is the actual testimony, from the existng transcripts. The famous line, her answer to whether she was in a state of grace ("If I am, pray God keep me there; if I am not, pray God put me there") are her own words.

It is historically accurate, and the polticoreligious commentary by Shaw throughout the play and especially in the preface and afterwards is astute. Additionally, it is a pleasure to read, just for the masteryof language.

[libhill]

11. I'll check the play out, too

Joan has always been a big question mark for me - as an agnostic, as I posted above, I can't accept the visions from heaven bit, but there must be some explanation for how an uneducated peasant girl could just pop up from out of no where, convince a Prince to give her charge of his armies (this in an age when women counted for little) and to get rough, hard bitten soldiers to follow her into battle. And her answers to the Inquisition courts were very astute. This has got to be the greatest unsolved mystery of all time. OK, folks I'm off my soap box now.

[REP]

12. Shaw Was Not a "Believer" In Any Conventional Sense

You may find his views refreshing, in fact! (See "Androcles and the Lion" for more, which you can read online at http://digital.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=4004)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. The movie has an interesting take on this

Joan really believes in her visions, but she's aware that the Inquisitors are trying to entrap her, and you can see their frustration as she evades the various traps they have set.

After I saw the film, I commented to a film buff friend who had seen it separately, "They killed Joan for being an uppity woman," and my friend agreed.

But it is indeed a mystery how an illiterate 17-year-old girl convinced armies to follow her.

[tjdee]

7. And now I know how Joan of Arc felt, as the flames rose to her Roman nose

and her hearing aid started to melt...ah, the Smiths...

In what way is she inexplicable? Seems to me she was a woman who joined up with the army and did the country a service--unless you're asserting she didn't exist, or didn't join the army?

Seems she'd be inexplicable if she didn't burn at the stake, or something like that. The voices she heard, religious or otherwise, are similar to motivations that other have had...

[aneerkoinos]

16. Miracle

IIRC I didn't use the word "inexplicable", but "miracle" in the sense "impossible by conventional meters", compering the impossibility of Joan to Gandhi, having in mind a quote by some famous unknown: "True politics is the art of impossible".

[realFedUp]

14. George Bernard Shaw said of Joan of Arc....

"Must then Christ perish in every age to
save those with no imagination?"

[dryan]

17. One of my favorite saints....

Joan was both a historic and a religious figure. I have a holy card with her likeness in my office and I have to say that when the tough get going, her corage inspires me. People can "flame" me I don't care...that's the role of saints in Catholic theology.

The feature film that came out a few years ago was pure trash. I had real problems with the actress that portrayed St. Joan. She seemed like she was psycho. Jean Seberg did a pretty good job. The silent film was on TV a few days ago. Very good.

FYI, the full transcript of Joan's trial has survived and is on file in the Vatican library. I was able to get a copy of some of the actual translation when I did a paper on Joan's trial for a class in college.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. And the silent film is taken directly from the trial transcript

Which isn't as odd as it sounds.