Why do Catholics adore Mary so much?

[nemo137]

Why and what purpose does it serve? I've been wondering about it for a while, but not being raised in that tradition, I've no idea what it's about.

[FreepFryer]

1. Fetishization of the virgin. Mother complex. Madonna and Whore.

Deep-seated 'dead-guy-on-a-stick' stuff, from the death worshippers who brought you original sin and the crucifix.

"Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

{edit}Please note: I say this not intentionally to offend, but to state my opinion about the psychology behind an important, mythical figure. You are all most welcome to whatever beliefs give you comfort.

[Reverend_Smitty]

2. She is the mother of Jesus

So thats as good a reason as any. No we don't worship her but respect her greatly. Personally I think it is great to venerate such a righteous and noble woman. Remember it was the 2 Marys that stood by Jesus on the cross while all the men were hiding

[nemo137]

5. Really a broader question, but

are prayers to the saints and to Mary a form of idolatry, or am I misunderstanding something basic of their nature?

Also, does venerating Mary take away from the focus on Jesus as the messiah and his ministry?

[Reverend_Smitty]

6. Not really because...

Catholics worship Jesus but venerate or respect the saints. I can see how people could get this mixed up. But there is a difference between a deep respect and worship

[nemo137]

8. so how do prayers that begin

"St Jude, pray for us." work? I can understand taking a saint's life as a model, but how does prayer to the Saints work?

[Reverend_Smitty]

9. That I never really understood...

but that never kept me from asking St. Anthony to find my keys :-)

[nemo137]

11. Thanks anyway.

n/t

[murielm99]

12. As I understand it, Catholics do not pray directly to those

saints, but they pray through them at times, rather than praying directly to God. They ask a saint to intercede for them.

I asked a Catholic friend about this, in a manner that I hoped was not disrespectful. I asked her to clear up some common Protestant misunderstandings about Catholicism. When I asked her if she prayed to Mary, she told me no, and gave me the above explanation.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

49. we ask Mary and the Saints to pray with and for us Not to them nor through

them...that is what i was taught


This prayer is simply quoting Scripture and is NOT "idol worshipping" as many ignorant fundies claim

"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus"...Luke 1:28-31

[seriousstan]

26. You don't pray to a saint, you pray for the saint to intercede

on your behalf. It is somewhat along the line of "next time you talk to God, put in a good word for me."

[trotsky]

27. But you're still praying TO the saint, asking for intercession.

I don't see much difference.

[seriousstan]

28. I guess it is just too subtle.

That is the thing about faith, isn't it.

Perhaps this will help, to pray is simply to entreat or implore. It connotes the simple act of asking, most respectfully. The OP was discussing "adore", which still isn't prohibited or unreasonable. The main point is that we use whatever avenue to God that we feel comfortable using. If we have a heart-felt relation to the Virgin Mary, St. John, the imperiled St. Anthony or our own dear departed "sainted" mother and ask them to "put in a good word", it is all fine by the Church.

[Zynx]

38. No because Catholics pray for their intercession, not to them as Gods.

There is a very definite distinction.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

50. Sufis pray to saints as well

and many other Muslims call them heretics because of it. The idea, as I understand it (and realize my understanding isn't all that broad), is that one connects to the Higher Source through the saint-sort of like jump-starting a weak battery. If you've ever been in the presence of a spiritual master, you know what I mean. Meditation becomes extremely easy, and you gain much insight that you usually don't get on your own. And the feeling of peace lasts for quite a while.

[JVS]

29. John stayed with Christ

[DBoon]

3. Catholicism is at its heart very pagan

And Mary is really a pagan fertility goddess.

If protestantism is the religion of the bourgeoisie, then catholicism is the religion of the peasants.

[JVS]

30. The division is usually geographic, not by class

[tigereye]

34. oddly enough

when I once went to a Hare Krishna temple for lunch ( I forget why we went, exactly), I felt very much at home due to all the icons and statues on the walls. The intensity of the images seemed very similar to some of those in Catholicism.

I do agree that Catholicism has very pagan/earthy roots, but it also has a lot of very intellectualized doctrine, dogma and philosophy. I support that is why it is so fascinating.

[riverwalker]

47. interesting point, tigereye

I read about the first catholic missionaries into Bhutan and Tibet. They were astonished at the similar red robes, monks, incense, chanting, imagery, and mysticism between the two religions.

[Old and In the Way]

4. She's the Mother of God, of course.

I was thinking about this today (and, as a practicing ex-Catholic, I can't remember)...was Mary and Joseph alive when Jesus was cruxcified? I think he was 33, so I assume she must have been around at the time, but I can't remember anything about her during this period. I do recall, now, that she was around after Jesus rose from the dead...but she seems to have a very low profile through the whole event.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

14. *You* didn't perform your Stations of the Cross

;)

At the Cross her station keeping
Stood the mournful mother weeping
Close to Jesus to the last.


- Another ex

[Old and In the Way]

20. Please, do not tell Sister Mary Barbara

I still have nightmares about her finding this out...

:-)

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

25. Your secret's safe with me

And now for your penance, read what my father claimed happened one time when he went to Saturday confession: one of the penitents had gotten a head start on his weekend drinking and came reeling out of the confessional booth, calling back loudly: "I know, Father, I know. Three Our Fathers, ten Hail Marys, and an Act of Contrition!"

The priest bolted out, read him the riot act and gave him ten times the usual number of prayers to recite.

I didn't believe my dad, though, because he never set foot in church unless someone was getting married, buried or baptized.

[Old and In the Way]

35. Sounds like your Dad was my kind of Catholic, LOL!

:hi:

[Igel]

21. Mary was still alive; Jesus gave her into one of his disciple's

care when he was on the cross. At least that's the version I bought into at some point.

As firstborn, he would have been the second in responsibility for his mother's care. First in line would have been Joseph.

Joseph, therefore, must have been dead.

I've never seen a compelling explanation as to why Jesus could bypass the usual line of succession (second born male child would be third in line, after husband and eldest male child). One explanation, I guess, is that Jesus had no siblings; I think he had siblings, and that the mention of his brothers doesn't refer to cousins. In that case, I guess the "community of faith" was more significant than family. But it's a guess.

Maybe the others disowned her--having her son crucified would certainly be a very, very large dishonor, and she apparently stood by him to the extent possible. Faced with choosing the dishonor of shirking one's parental duties or the dishonor of affiliating with a woman who supported an executed rabble-rouser, they may well have chosen the former.

[ProgressiveConn]

7. Well anyone who raised such a great kid can't be all bad. =)

Not to mention the nature of the spread of Christianity... Regional Christian Churches show many of the characteristics of the pagan religions they replaced.

[housewolf]

10. Catholicism took much from the natural paganism of Europe

when it converted those countries to Catholicism. Many of the Catholic traditions grew out of pagan traditions - the Easter celebration, Christmas coming at the time of the winter solstice, many Christmas symbols (mistletoe, santa claus, the tree, etc). Most of those religions worshiped a goddess. The early church substituted Mary for the pagan goddesses and transfered the worship of the goddess to Mary.

[shraby]

13. The Joseph Campbell series

on myths is very instructive on the origins of religion. I found him very interesting. I think it was PBS with Bill Moyers ran a series of them.

[imenja]

15. Mary is a feminist, worshiped, above the objections of Rome

She is the mother of God. That is why she is worshiped. But she is also tangible. She has appeared, her apparition, in many countries around the world. You've seen her likeness, even if you may not recognize her. She is the Virgin of Guadalupe, the patron saint of Mexico. She is Cuba's Virgin of el Cobre. She is Our Lady of the Rosary, the patron saint of Afro-Brazilians under slavery and their descendants today. Mary is the intercessor: it was through her that God communicated to human kind, it was through her that God's son came to earth. Mary is thus more approachable, closer to humans, than the Holy Spirit. Mary is especially important in Latin America where women make up the vast majority of parishioners. Mary is the feminist saint. She is worshiped, in spite of the Vatican's efforts to reduce her importance.

Incidentally, my impression is that protestants aren't keen on Mary. When I was in Brazil, a evangelical approached me on the bus and told me I should convert to protestantism because it was wrong to worship a woman as Catholics do. Only men deserve that recognition, he insisted. Best argument I've ever heard in favor of Catholicism!

[nemo137]

31. The problem I'd always heard with Mary was that it was extra-biblical

and protestants tend to be Trinity and nothing else.

[imenja]

37. Religion in practice differs from scripture

Extra biblical?: In the sense that religion in practice gives her greater importance than the scriptures themselves? I think that is true, but religion in practice always differers from scripture and Church dogma. The Catholic Church spent a great deal of energy trying to enforce orthodox Catholicism on Latin Americans during the Colonial period, but they eventually gave up. They now embrace such celebrations, including some in Brazil that honor African deities. Like Imenja, my screen name!

http://www.civilization.ca/media/docs/pr136ceng.html

[adwon]

33. This is dead on

Mary humanizes the idea of Christ. She's the vital link that made Him fully human. As my mother taught me, she was the impetus behind the first miracle. That is why we ask her to intercede. After all, what good son could refuse a request from his mother?

[Brianboru]

52. Catholics do not worship Mary

We hold the Mother of God in very high esteem

[imenja]

63. in Latin America she is worshiped

She takes on meaning far greater than that promoted in official Church doctrine.

[Selteri]

16. Because the popes couldn't competely stamp out the

women of the bible, so they melded them into one name. Mary.

Mary - Mother of god

Mary Magdeline - Inferred to be a whore

Women are constantly looked down upon through the history of the Catholic Church.

They had laws that women had to crush their breasts for 800 years

Letters to Romans made the suggestion to keep women quiet so that they don't interrupt services because of their inferior minds...


it's a huge long pattern of nastyness and bad actions.

The Church still does everything it can to control the texts and information, they don't like to change or such.

[justsomegirl]

39. i agree-

Well spoken.

[OneBlueSky]

17. she essentially replaces the Goddess of pagan beliefs . . . n/t

[imenja]

42. pagans had multiples goddesses

and in Brazil Mary and Jesus are revered alongside African goddesses like Imenja and Oxum. Imenja even has a yearly celebration for her on the steps of a Catholic Church in the Rio Vermelho neighborhood of Salvador Da Bahia, Brazil. So in this particular case, Mary accompanies rather than substitutes for pagan goddesses. Under slavery it was different, when worship of Catholic saints became a way of secretly maintaining Yoruba religious traditions.

[no_hypocrisy]

18. Symbol of the Ultimate Mother.

First she is conceived and born without sin (theocratic premise). She escapes God's Genesis curse of Original Sin out of millions born since Adam and Eve. That gets her status in its own right.

Next, she is given her Marching Orders by the Angel that she is going to be impregnated without the benefit of the usual technicalities and without the benefit of a husband, leaving her life path predetermined and without her being able to choose otherwise. And she accepts this.

Next, she gives birth to a child who will from the getgo a political liability and is in danger by his existence by itself. That can't be easy. But she does what she can as a mother. And her engagement and marriage to Joseph are impacted but not to a necessarily deleterious degree.

Next, her son leaves her and doesn't keep in contact for years. But that's okay. It's Jesus. She knows he's safe and doing God's work.

Next, she is reunited with her son, only to know she has to give him up and watch him die in a grisly death. She wants to properly bury him, except she is denied his body as it has been transformed and resurrected. She is left with nothing but her memories and belief that not only is he "better off," but humanity in general is better off because she backed off and supported his Disciples thereafter.

Her honor is based on her acts as there is not much documented if at all of anything that she said or preached.

That's my take on it.

[komplex]

19. Well, she had great comedic timing...

The scribes and Pharisees bring the woman before Jesus, quote the law to him, and ask him what he has to say about it. He writes with his finger in the sand, and then says, "Let the one without sin cast the first stone." At that moment a stone comes flying out of the crowd, hits the woman right in the forehead, and kills her instantly. Jesus turns and says, "Mother, I was trying to make a point."

[dryan]

22. My 2 cents...

Mary is the first among the disciples. She is the only person that was both at the nativity and the cruifixtion. She knew that Jesus was God's son before anyone else.

FYI, Catholics don't "worship" Mary. We ask her to intervene on our part. Didn't you ever ask "Mom" to ask "Dad" for things?

[imenja]

24. no, Mary Magdalene may have been a disciple

but the Blessed Virgin was not. She is the Mother of God. I would say that in Latin America, Catholics do worship Mary.

[aneerkoinos]

36. Personal Will

Yeah, it is definately a part of th growing process to attempt to play mommy against daddy or vice verca in childs own "interest" (which the parent have responsibility to see through and not to get manipulated but to rear socially responsible offspring).

So so far what you offer is just a rather poor projection on infantile projections, when the question really is, is there anything else but infantile projections to Catholicism (ie Nicean "religion"), like anything like really holy or usefull, dude ... ?

[patrice]

23. There is no way most people can know whether most other

people's errors are any worse than their own.

With a few notable exceptions, you just don't know enough about the configuration of all that is in their mind and heart in conjunction with all that is in their personal history relative to the issue at hand.

Whatever "error" you see in other people's veneration of Mary is equal to your own errors.

[nemo137]

32. I wasn't implying an error

I was asking for information on a tradition that is fairly alien to me.

[tjdee]

40. They believe *she* was born without sin--I think? She is an intercessor...

Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken, but the biggest difference I've heard of is that they believe *she* was immaculately conceived (without sin).

Also, like saints, she is an intercessor, like, she can intervene on your behalf with God--and Protestants believe you don't need an intercessor, you can deal with God directly (or through JC if you *need* one, but he's God, and all that). Personally, I think that puts her on the same level with Jesus, personally I'm not a fan of that.

Those are the biggies, and if I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me.

[madeline_con]

41. Not being raised...

in that tradition, either, I'll give it a shot anyway. As Wild Bill Shakespeare said, "There is nothing new under the sun".

That goes for the Judeo-Christian texts as well. She's the substitute for the pagan mother goddess(es) to make the transition easier for the 'heathen hordes'. :hi:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

43. A variety of reasons, I think

C.S. Lewis suggested that many Catholics feel about Mary to some extent the way they feel about their own mothers - he wasn't a Catholic himself, so that's not authoritative, but he's always worth listening to.

I don't fully understand the status of Mary as Mediatrix - I think that Catholics believe that it's Jesus who intercedes with God on their behalf, but Mary is definately meant to be involved in the process of interceding on our behalf somewhere, with either God or Jesus.

Also, she's believed to have been the only human to have been free of original sin, and (I think) to have live a completely sinless life.

And she's the only female figure to receive significant veneration in Catholicism, which means that anyone more comfortable praying to a woman than a man is likely to select her.

[Stuckinthebush]

44. A very polytheistic faith

in the guise of a monotheistic faith.

Mary and all of the other saints can hear and answer prayers making them minor deities. Mary is the feminine to God/Jesus's masculine.

[imenja]

45. it is far from polytheistic

though polytheistic religions have adapted well to Christianity through saint worship.

The feminine need not be separate from the masculine. Mary is the highest of all Saints, but she is not God. God is the Holy Trinity, but that is a single force, not three separate ones.

[riverwalker]

46. not Catholic, but I adore Mary

it's a personal thing, but I have always adored her, but was not raised to do so as a midwestern Lutheran (we consider cottage cheese to be too exotic.) It evolved from traveling, and I found that all over the world, there are little shrines to Mary. By a creek, in a parking garage, a roadside grotto. She is accessable to common people all over the world, as the mother, the original goddess of compassion, the earth itself. To me she is The Green Tara, Diana, Isis, Kwan Yin. I collect prayer beads from all the faiths, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, and wanted to learn the Hail Mary rosary. I found a 95 year old lady ( a patient) to teach me, because I knew she didn't care why a non-catholic would want to learn the rosary, I wouldn't even know how to explain.
I am aware though, that in countries like Peru and Mexico, the Spanish were able to impose their religion on the indiginous people by using Mary. They all had earth goddesses in their religion already, and the Spanish just transposed Mary onto what they already believed. I think it was done in Ireland as well. So it may seem that she is the mother of Jesus, but she is actually the embodiment of much, much more to people.
In other words, it's a beautiful mystery.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

48. poor God, ALL these disobedient children and no mother to help out!

:eyes:

[Brianboru]

51. There are a number of issues here. The answers

can be found at this site. There is a lot there. Take your time.

http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

[hecate77]

53. Mary became central to Catholic doctrine in an attempt to supplant Goddess

worship. So many pagans worshiped the Goddess, and did so at sacred sites. What the church did was to build churches on these sacred sites. People came to them and still worshiped the Goddess, so the church incorporated her into its mythology as the Mother of Jesus, therefore the mother of god. Since people still have a propensity to worship the mother Goddess, Mary is very revered. People were allowed to honor Mary, as long as they honored Jesus more. Still, it seems in many places, Mary still gets the most worship.....

You might also notice that most of the recent big miracle things in the Catholic church have involved Mary. Our Lady of Guadalupe (in Mexico). Our Lady of Lourdes (France). Our Lady of Fatima (Portugal?)
Seems a bit odd to me that people keep getting visited by her and not by Jesus.

The other Christian sects don't seem to have Mary at all (at least not to my knowledge).

I was raised Catholic and was very devout in my early years, especially to Mary.

Now I see Mary as another aspect of the Goddess, no different to me than Kali, Hecate, Innana, Quan Yin, Brigid, etc.

[Disturbed]

54. Jesus had a brother named James..

according to the bible. How could Jesus' mother still be a virgin if she had another child, not impregnated by an angel but her husband, Joseph?

On another board I asked the question about the virgin birth and got some real zany answers. To be forthright: I do not believe there was virgin birth. It is a fantasy taken from other religions that Paul added to make "Christianity" more appealing.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

55. Catholics believe

that "brother" should really be translated as "close relative", and that Mary stayed a virgin her entire life, while Protestants believe Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but didn't remain one and later had other children with Joseph.

[shawn703]

59. One comment

"Seems a bit odd to me that people keep getting visited by her and not by Jesus."

That's because nobody would believe their story if they said Jesus visited them, unless they were standing in line at the Great White Throne of Judgment.

[hecate77]

61. Probably right. However, didn't Theresa of Avilla see Jesus supposedly?

Not sure I got the name right. I was a devout Catholic at one time, but that time is far in the distance, so my memory of all the names is not so good.

My guess, though, is that the Goddess is an older and deeper archetype, and so she is seen more often than her son, or whatever one wants to believe he might be. No disrespect intended. I think Jesus existed but I do not accept current Christian doctrine about who he was, which, of course, makes me not a Christian. I think he was a great teacher, like many others, but not the Son of God in the way Christians think of him.

In any case, it is interesting to me that there are so many more 'sightings' of Mary.

[shawn703]

62. My first impression when I read about the Miracle at Fatima

was that it sounded more like an extra-terrestrial encounter than a heavenly one. From http://www.christusrex.org/www1/apparitions/pr00011.htm:

"On that date, 70,000 people came to see the phenomenon. The miracle occured with the sun. All could stare perfectly at the sun without blinking, or even hurting heir eyes. While all were watching the sun, it rotated, got large and small, got close to the people, and got far away from them. The sun " danced ". Every single person who was there testified to seeing the sun dance, even non- believers who immediately dropped onto their knees and begged for forgiveness."


It's pretty funny when I think about it - I'd accept an explanation for an unexplained event that is also pretty fantastic rather than believe the sun was dancing around the sky.

[Dcitizen]

56. Christ said to messengers many times...

If you dishonor my mother how can I honor you in the heaven? Maybe
that's all about.

[PATRICK]

57. Mary, Mother of the Church

or a protosymbol of Mother Church and the most traditional best context is seen in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Rites. The richness of the symbol far outpaces any personal adoration, but the history of the Western Catholic Church evolved into more a personal thing around the individual herself and subsequently a more homey, sentimental and approachable female intercessor in her own right.

The Orthodox have their Icons and shrines as the RC's have their statues and miraculous shrines. For both the female nature of God's care is vital and overwhelmingly attractive. Christ is more consistently the stern judge than in the West as well, so the sex harmony is clear. Only the reformers and translating of the gospels began to make Jesus human.

Only by looking at the process east and west does it become understandable. It has mainly to do with male rule versus female nurture as it gets affected by historical culture, the need for intimacy or humanity or the power of symbols. What people have a hard time getting beside those twenty centuries is the florid baroque, but humane culturization of Mary as a rival to the authoritarian Church which came to a crashing end as an incipient spiritual disconnect at Vatican Council II, which used the Orthodox consistency to anchor a more traditional focus on Christ and Mary as symbol of the Church as Mother and vessel of the Savior. And don't think a lot of devout Catholics weren't devastated by the sudden derailment of the "Marian Age". A particular brand of anger and rebellion became part of the RW hate reaction, curiously out of character for the feminine sentimentalism previously espoused.

[PATRICK]

58. It was one of those things

that turned any respect for conservatism into deep suspicion when the devotion that was famous as a well of compassion turned sourly vicious to a sick extreme. It seemed to be one of many things in the sixties where groups respected were suddenly tainted by support for a war that was obviously wrong or at least suspiciously so. Right and wrong which these "simple" hearts seemed very clear on did not matter when it came down to fear, resentment, enemies and waving various flags around like some weird fan club striking out at mockers and critics.

The sickness was infectious considering there actually were a lot more of those far out lefties(of the type Pitt recently complained about) than there are today. I thought I had never seen so many people galvanized into pride of being partially blind to evil and responsibility. Then it such dug in deeper and came out into the utterly paralyzing delirium we see today.

Confused values might seem natural diversity until some conflict suddenly sorts them out. God help the deluded fans who fall into madness and evil when the push comes.

[jbnow]

60. Mary is a "modern" phenomenon

Well it was the 1940's and 50's that elevated status became official under Pope Pius XII ...the queenship of heaven, declaration of the assumption of Mary and so on. Later popes took it further.

Maybe they were ahead of their time in recognizing "the return of the goddess". Perhaps they had Mary experiences, I don't recall hearing, but I haven't been Catholic since 5th grade.

As other posts got into, she did have other kids. The bible mentions them several times. While still in Catholic school that was one of the things I got in trouble for asking about. They gave the "symbolic siblings" talk, but I went to library and researched it and there doesn't seem much doubt. I didn't understand why they thought it was holier if she never had sex, even if Jesus was said to be immaculately conceived. Well I also learned the word translated as virgin didn't mean never having sex, it was a woman who didn't belong to a man, unmarried. Something like that. And why is Jesus's lineage traced through Joseph when they weren't related? But my bigger issue was her other children and how that would diminish her. Made no sense.

Jesus wasn't big on family really, not even his own. When he was told his mother and brothers wanted to talk to him (essentially they were worried he was taking this Christ thing to far) he would not speak to them, saying those who believe are his mother and brothers.

As far as praying through the saints, hey, maybe it's friends in high places. (Like if you want to get a message to the president about something in particular you go to one of the department heads?)

On a metaphysical level it might be attuning to the energy the particular saint is known for, drawing that to you, though nuns sure never explained it that way.

I was not a good catholic girl. My questions were genuine (and polite), there was so much that seemed stupid or wrong to me. I was sent to the priest in 5th grade and told to write 500 times that "A good catholic doesn't question their faith". I refused because I was sure that wasn't true. You can't pass God off as the perfect parent and then say he doesn't want his kids asking questions. They kicked me out. Three days later they let me back in if I agreed to write 3 poems about God. I did, but left at the end of the year. Even then all the judging and odd rules and a god who sent bears to eat children who laughed at a crazy looking stranger and on and on... was more then distasteful to me.

[imenja]

64. In Latin America her importance dates from the sixteenth century

When she appeared to an Indian, Juan Diego, the the form of the Virgin of Guadalupe. She is far more important in popular religiosity than in official Church doctrine.