Vatican boycotts Holocaust remembrance

[beam me up scottie]

Vatican boycotts Holocaust remembrance

The Vatican ambassador to Israel has sparked a row after refusing to attend tomorrow's annual Holocaust memorial service in Jerusalem in protest at a description of the wartime role of Pope Pius XII.

Monsignor Antonio Franco, who arrived in Jerusalem last year, has called on Israel's official Holocaust museum, Yad Vashem, to change a picture caption that criticises the pontiff for failing to condemn the deportation and mass killing of Jews under the Nazis. Earlier this month he turned down a formal invitation to Sunday's torch-lighting remembrance ceremony.

***

The dispute revolves around a paragraph-long caption of Pius XII installed when the newly designed museum was opened in 2005. A letter of complaint was also sent by the previous Vatican ambassador a year ago.

The text notes that Pius XII's reaction to the Holocaust is controversial and states: "When he was elected pope in 1939, he shelved a letter against racism and anti-semitism that his predecessor had prepared. Even when reports about the murder of Jews reached the Vatican the Pope did not protest either verbally or in writing." The description also says Pius XII chose not to sign a December 1942 Allied declaration condemning the extermination of Jews and did not intervene when Jews were deported from Rome to Auschwitz.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,2057042,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=12

Nice.

Can we criticize the Vatican yet on DU, or is it still off limits because of their Holy Period?

[Kagemusha]

1. Well, the envoy has already reversed himself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2807910

I saw it on LBN earlier today.

I'm fine with anyone who wants to criticize the initial decision, personally.

[beam me up scottie]

2. So they were forced to retreat because of bad publicity? Colour me surprised.

Nothing they do now can ever make amends for their role/non-role in the Holocaust.

It's obvious that they're not only NOT trying to make things right, they're still denying their past, defending the indefensible and advocating policies that will again lead to the deaths of millions of people.

[Kagemusha]

3. Um well, that's an almost entirely separate issue then

since this incident has nothing to do with inalienable blame for having existed through the Holocaust and not stopped it so..

..er, why are we talking about this then?

[beam me up scottie]

4. Because their participation in any ceremony about the Holocaust is hypocrisy of the worst kind.

At least their reasons for their initial refusal were enlightening to people who are unaware of their actions during the Holocaust.

[Kagemusha]

6. Uh, take it up with the people who invited the envoy then.

Now I see why people had issues with your "criticism"... if you're sure nothing will ever change, criticism seems too mild and weak a word.

[beam me up scottie]

7. You must have a problem with my criticism of Vatican policies teaching that condoms spread AIDS too.

Very telling.

And I don't just criticize the Vatican policies, the Pope and the catholic church, I condemn them for what can only be defined as premeditated murder.

[Kagemusha]

9. No, I'm telling you you're NOT criticizing at all. You're condemning.

I, do not regularly look over stuff on the Religion/Theology forum - I saw this as part of the Latest posts. I have not seen your other uh, non-criticism condemnation of the Vatican and the Catholic Church. I have a problem with your dressing up condemnation as if it is criticism and giving a "Why me, what did I ever do?" impression at the end of your original post for this thread.

Calling it condemnation is at least honest.

[beam me up scottie]

11. Yes, I condemn people who can save lives and refuse to.

And like other critics in here, I get accused of bigotry because of it.

[Kagemusha]

12. That would be because you're not criticizing, you're condemning.

Let's say the church does change - you won't care. I'm not condemning or even criticizing you for that. But frankly, I got suckered by your words about DU not allowing criticism. I was like, what's up with that?? I'll be blunt - I got played. That's on me, not on you, but in the future I will remember it and take precautions against sympathy for you because your "critiques" are treated as prejudice and perma-judice.

[beam me up scottie]

14. You admit you never post in here and then claim we're not called bigots for criticizing religion?

Oh brother.

We were told repeatedly last week to shut up and sit down because it was "Holy Week".

I'm not going to school you on the history of The Arena, you can do your own homework.

[Kagemusha]

16. No, I'm saying I'm not surprised.

Because if this is your "criticism," small wonder people see it as something else than what the word "criticism" generally means to people educated in the modern English language.

I think I'll leave it at that.

[beam me up scottie]

18. Do you understand the difference between criticizing and condemning the catholic religion, policies

and broad brushing all catholics?

The former is not only allowed, it should be encouraged.

The latter is bigotry and I'm not guilty of it.

I grew up in a catholic community, my best friends are catholic, I love and respect them.

They have nothing to do with how I feel about the Vatican.

[Rabrrrrrr]

40. I'm with Beam Me Up - I condemn the sex teachings of the Catholic Chur4ch,

and I condemn their participation - collusion, I call it; one can also say complicity - in Nazi Germany.

Those are both worth condemning. Fuck criticizing them.

I criticize the Catholic teaching about female ordination and a celibate clergy - they're not quite bad enough to condemn.

I condemn their lying about child abuse and pushing molestors around from diocese to diocese.

I criticize their non-"sola scripture" stance.

See how that all works?

[DCKit]

5. Ok, what I wrote was harsh....

but then you go blame poor Pious for aiding and abetting the Holocaust?

[beam me up scottie]

8. What an assholish thing to say.

If you can't keep your bigotry in check, please post in another thread.

[beam me up scottie]

15. I'm not the one passing blame, read the articles in the links I posted.

History is revealing the truth a little bit at a time, despite the Vatican's efforts to suppress it.

[beam me up scottie]

10. Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html">Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust

Recent Developments

The International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission (ICJHC), a group comprised of three Jewish and three Catholic scholars, was appointed in 1999 by the Holy See's Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews. In October of 2000, the group of scholars finished their review of the Vatican's archives, and submitted their preliminary findings to the Comission's then-President, Cardinal Edward I Cassidy. Their report, entitled "The Vatican and the Holocaust," laid to rest several of the conventional defenses of Pope Pius XII.

The often-espoused view that the Pontiff was unaware of the seriousness of the situation of European Jewry during the war was definitively found to be inaccurate. Numerous documents demonstrated that the Pope was well-informed about the full extent of the Nazi's anti-Semitic practices. A letter from Konrad von Preysing, Bishop of Berlin, that proved that the Pope was aware of the situation as early as January of 1941, particularly caught the attention of the commission. In that letter, Preysing confirms that "Your Holiness is certainly informed about the situation of the Jews in Germany and the neighboring countries. I wish to mention that I have been asked both from the Catholic and Protestant side if the Holy See could not do something on this subject...in favor of these unfortunates." The letter, which was a direct appeal to the Pope himself, without intermediaries, provoked no response. In 1942, an even more compelling eyewitness account of the mass-murder of Jews in Lwow was sent to the Pope by an archbishop; this, too, garnered no response.

The commission also revealed several documents that cast a negative light on the claim that the Vatican did all it could to facilitate emigration of the Jews out of Europe. Internal notes meant only for Vatican representatives revealed the opposition of Vatican officials to Jewish emigration from Europe to Palestine. "The Holy See has never approved of the project of making Palestine a Jewish home... Palestine is by now holier for Catholics than for Jews." Some Catholic higher-ups violated this position of the Vatican by helping Jews to immigrate when they were able to; most did not.

Similarly, the attempts of Jews to escape from Europe to South America were sometimes thwarted by the Vatican. Vatican representatives in Bolivia and Chile wrote to the pontiff regarding the "invasive" and "cynically exploitative" character of the Jewish immigrants, who were already engaged in "dishonest dealings, violence, immorality, and even disrespect for religion." The commission concluded that these accounts probably biased Pius against aiding more Jews in immigrating away from Nazi Europe.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

[Steepler0t]

13. The more things change..

The more the stay the same.

[beam me up scottie]

17. That is a good picture.

I've only seen it once before, thanks for posting it.

[Steepler0t]

19. The credit does not go to me for finding it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x106489

[beam me up scottie]

20. Wow, that was a very informative if not relatively brief and painless thread.

Compared to some of the grueling week long marathons in here regarding that subject. :)

[Steepler0t]

21. Yes, I bookmark a lot of good reference I find from here

DU is great for that. ;-)

[beam me up scottie]

22. Me too.

But I have so many I have to sort and organize them regularly because I eventually forget what they were about.

I bookmark the really funny threads too, they're real gems when you're discouraged by the infighting.

[Steepler0t]

23. I post to a number or forums

keeps me from getting frustrated when the infighting starts up. Although I can think of a few that are almost nothing but infighting, but they seem to allow that when you want to get it off your chest. (debatebothsides.com)

[beam me up scottie]

24. Oooo, I forgot about that one.

Next time I need to kick something around that won't get me fired or single again, I'll pay them a visit.

I'm a closet atheist working in a Christian Workplace™, I'm intimately familiar with feeling outnumbered, frustrated and powerless.

[Steepler0t]

25. DBS is a great stress reliever

I have never seen freepers get slammed as hard on a forum. (Although both sides get their share)

Kinda silly to do but you can really let loose on a bad day on the resident wingnuts. (Tough skin is a must though)

Getting frustrated and going off on someone here would get me banned I am sure.

[beam me up scottie]

26. You wouldn't be banned if you stayed on this side of the line.

I refuse to shut up here, god damn it, I have to do it all day and night in the real world.

[Steepler0t]

27. Not what I am saying

At all, just stating how I feel about DU myself, feel free to call out people being freepers, I usually ignore them here as they will get their asses tombstoned with a quickness, by the time I get a good reply going they are gone.

[beam me up scottie]

28. Ah, gotcha!

It's funny, I get more annoyed with liberals than freepers, probably because I expect more from us.

[Steepler0t]

29. So do I

What do you expect from freepers, their whole mindset is twisted from some childhood bullying incident or something.

I consider myself a bit more center-left then DU so I keep to myself mostly, I have seen too many progressives get pissed and burn bridges here, and tbh the more progressive forums are nowhere near as big and full of good information. (And most folks here are great people)

Suffer not the fools -or whatever the saying is.

I always think back to what Jello Biafra said if there was a revolution, about not all progressives seeing liberty the same way, yet we would all have to find some common ground or we would get nowhere.

There is common ground here, just have to stay focused on the subject matter that doesen't yank your chain.

[beam me up scottie]

30. Heh heh, I'm way center left but I know better than to burn this bridge.

I haven't found anything even close to DU, although I need to take breaks frequently.

When the main forums are overflowing with threads about the primaries, immigration policy, smoking bans and/or hero worship, etc., I'm on my way out the door for a spell.

But I always come back. I'm closer to some people here than I am to members of my own family.

[Steepler0t]

31. Absolutely

I do not own a TV and I get annoyed with the endless threads about TV talking heads and gossip, I could care less. I tossed the idiot box out a decade ago.

[beam me up scottie]

32. No kidding? I killed my tv years ago.

I swear my IQ shot up the minute it was unplugged.

I have never met, in person, at least, anyone else who has done something so drastic and incomprehensible to your ordinary every day American.

It blows their minds when you tell them you don't own one.

I find plenty of ways to entertain myself and endless reasons to procrastinate on the net.

[Steepler0t]

33. Heh

It does not win you many friends at work partys, that's for sure. Blah blah blah this TV show, what do you think.."Uhh I could care less TV rots the brain." *odd looks then they ignore you*

Avoid the stupid. It has actually been since 1989 that I ditched TV and mainstream radio and I can talk to someone for just a few minutes and see their mindset clouded with that junk I swear.

[beam me up scottie]

34. I just learned tonight that they have a Survivor Channel now.

:banghead:

I keep waiting for someone to yell "CUT!" and this ends up being a movie along the lines of Spinal Tap except spoofing on television.

[Steepler0t]

35. Survivor Channel?

Is that one of those reality tv shows or something? Haven't seen one yet, don't even know anyone who owns a TV. :shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

36. I think it's where they put people in isolated locations and film them

"surviving" under harsh conditions.

Fucking sickening when you think of how many people AREN'T surviving because your average Survivor show fan could care less about poor people.

[Steepler0t]

37. Yeah

I heard about that fad, people who get off watching others misery to cover up their own.

I will pass.

[skepticscott]

39. Not sure how you do it

I'm a closet atheist working in a Christian Workplace™, I'm intimately familiar with feeling outnumbered, frustrated and powerless.

I'd never be able to bite my tongue for long. I would be SO fired. I'm not sure how atheists in the Bible belt live day to day without killing someone.

[moggie]

38. Who needs him there anyway?

The presence of the Vatican ambassador at the service would be meaningless as long as the Vatican fails to accept its part in the holocaust. Perhaps he shouldn't be invited next year.

In fact... isn't it about time that we ended the fiction that the Vatican is a nation like any other, with the consequent diplomatic rights? The Vatican City has less than 600 citizens: my company has more employees than that!