Religious question: Does "original sin" mean that babies are not innocent?

[dansolo]

Whenever the issue of abortion is raised, it is often descibed as killing an innocent. This is how some people reconcile how they can oppose abortion, but yet support the death penalty. But doesn't the docrine of "original sin" mean that babies aren't truly innocent, at least until they are baptized?

[The Magistrate]

1. Short Answer, Sir: Yes

The doctrine gives rise to a great deal of wriggling by those who are made uncomfortable by its full implications, but that is the look-out of those who hold it, and no one else's....

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. The concept of original sin

is summed up in the old hornbook sentence:

In Adam's fall
We sinned all

It is that somehow the sin of Adam is transferred down through all his descendants, I believe. The Catholic Church, at one time, had a place for unbaptized babes to go called Limbo rather than Hell, so I guess they didn't view original sin as a black/white issue.

[ixion]

4. Purgatory, is what they call it

in case you're interested...:-)

[bluemarkers]

7. repugnant to the word of God

according to the Episcopal prayer book. :)

My dad was supposedly prayed out of purgatory back in the 1960's thanks

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. Purgatory is different from Limbo

However, the Vatican decided to close Limbo a few years ago, so I'm not sure what they did about all the babies?

[bluemarkers]

12. can they do that?

wow - the pope is powerful

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. Not for babies

or else my minister was making up stories. I went to the Catholic Encyclopedia, and here's what they said:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
Limbo

Late Latin limbus) a word of Teutonic derivation, meaning literally "hem" or "border," as of a garment, or anything joined on (cf. Italian lembo or English limb).

In theological usage the name is applied to (a) the temporary place or state of the souls of the just who, although purified from sin, were excluded from the beatific vision until Christ's triumphant ascension into Heaven (the "limbus patrum"); or

(b) to the permanent place or state of those unbaptized children and others who, dying without grievous personal sin, are excluded from the beatific vision on account of original sin alone (the "limbus infantium" or "puerorum"). Boldface mine.

[dsc]

17. No it was limbo

Purgatory was to work off sins that you committed. It was kind of a temporary Hell.

[mitchtv]

18. 12 years of Catholic School...

Limbo for unbabptized kids
Purgatory for sinners (venial)
Heaven for Baptized babies
Incidentally , I was never taught "good" Prots,Jews, Moslems etc go to Hell

[hedgehog]

25. Nope - unbaptised babies do not go to purgatory.

Purgatory is for people who need to make up for sins of choice.

[Nikki Stone1]

3. Pre Vatican II, an unbaptised baby had the stain of original sin and couldn't go to heaven

Hence the desire to baptise preemies and sickly infants in hospital, just in case.

When I was a kid, we were told unbaptised babies went to Limbo. Not hell but not heaven.

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. Wasn't Baptism

the only sacrament any catholic could do?

[bluemarkers]

5. mainly catholic?

protestants don't really think it is a valid argument. Baptists wait until people are older before baptism - heck they don't even recognize other church's ritual of baptism - (eye roll smilie here)


Way back when, the early church had to figure out ways to make people give it money. original sin was one way of making sure families paid, same thing too with church attendance- you don't go to church, you don't tithe.... so missing bacame a mortal sin.

[jwirr]

22. I may be mistaken but Lutheran's believe in original sin from birth

but it does not determine ones outcome. It merely means that we are born into sin - the capability of sinning. Thus for Lutheran's it is not such a vital issue, but merely places us all equal in the beginning.

[knitter4democracy]

28. Wrong interpretation of early church.

You don't go to church, you don't get Communion. If you don't get Communion, it is hard for you to stay in the faith. In fact, the forty days that a newborn baby and mama are allowed out of church aren't because they're unclean (mom's still bleeding) or anything like that--they're allowed out of Communion for that time to bond and not be exposed to disease at a crucial time. By your account, they wouldn't be let out, just in case the Church missed a tithe.

[bluemarkers]

30. why

perhaps I don't understand why it is hard to stay in the faith if you don't get Communion. If if is so important, why deny it to anyone?



Jesus didn't give us too many rules to live by or worship by -

The early church (say from 600 - 1000) had a dual responsibility - it was there to provide spiritual support, but in many many parts of Western Europe, it was also the only law and order. The church needed funds.

[knitter4democracy]

31. That's true about the Western Church.

It was the law and order organ after Rome fell. Constantinople didn't fall for far longer, as well as the other patriarchal seats (Alexandria, Antioch, etc.).

Communion is the only ritual Jesus told us to do. "Do this in remembrance of me" (Luke 22:19) We consider marriage a sacrament because Jesus attended a wedding and blessed it by turning the water into wine when they ran out. We consider baptism a primary sacrament because Jesus was baptized himself and encouraged others to do so. Communion, though, is different. It is the body and blood (whether for real or as a vitally important symbol) of Christ, and the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that in taking communion, we are taking Christ into our bodies in order to become more Christlike in a mystical, important way.

Communion is denied to those who aren't baptized and chrismated Christians. I don't fully agree with that myself. When Hubby and I were in the process of becoming Orthodox, we were denied communion. It really hurt. Here I was, a baptized Christian, allowed to be in church but not take communion with everyone else. Our priest explained it as an old canon law--only those baptized and chrismated (a process in the early church that often took a year to make sure the convert was true and not just doing it for political or other reasons) and could recite and believe fully the Nicene Creed could take communion. We are a family at a table when we take communion, and it is a serious enough sacrament that not just anyone can grab the food and go. I'm not sure I agree with that teaching, personally, and the historical reasons for denying Communion seem silly after all these centuries, but that's what the Church says, so I do it.

[bluemarkers]

32. thanks

and Happy New Year!!

[knitter4democracy]

33. Thank you, and Happy New Year to you!

It always amazes me when we can have civil discussions about religion. See, this is a good place. :)

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. Supposedly everyone is born with original sin

So because Adam and Eve screwed up, everyone for the rest of eternity has to pay for it. That's why Jesus came to earth and died on the cross. To pay for our original sin.

The only way to be absolved from this sin is to be baptized in the RC church. If you are not, no matter how good a life you live, you can never go to heaven. At some point, they invented limbo and that was were all the babies go supposedly. Not a bad place but they would never be allowed to see god.

I was about 7, when I figured out that even dear sweet Sister Mary Frances must be nuts to believe such a thing.

[BlooInBloo]

9. Yup. Batshit stupid, isn't it?

[Selatius]

10. Correct me if wrong, but I believe the Catholic Church asserts that argument doesn't apply to unborn

They changed their position on this rather recently to make it clear. It also provides a loophole against those who would use the argument to attempt to undermine the anti-abortion stance of the Church.

[Rosemary2205]

13. Yes - to the baptists

I was raised southern baptists. I was taught in church that every human is tainted by original sin but that Jesus already paid the price for that sin.

Up until the age of accountability - as in being old enough to really understand right and wrong (anywhere from age 5 on) then at that point we are responsible for our own acts of sin and we must accept Jesus as the savior of those sins by continutal repentence.

However, those who never hear about Jesus even after death can still accept the sacrifice he made on our behalf for payment of our sins.

[shireen]

14. yup, and it doesn't make any sense

which is why i'm a devout agnostic, :7

[monmouth]

16. As a Roman Catholic myself, I used to laugh out loud at Sister when

she was spewing this crap. Limbo??? Purgatory???? Puhleeeze. I really got in trouble when I opened the big mouth with "when you're dead, you're dead." I was brilliant at seven! My Irish Catholic mother was not amused. Sorry, I still feel that way

[Warpy]

19. I think the church is preparing to twist itself into doctrinal knots

since they officially decreed that Limbo didn't exist and all miscarriages, stillbirth, and babies who died before they were baptised went to heaven.

That begs the question of why abortion would be such a terrible sin, since the aborted embryo/fetus would get a ticket to Paradise.

That also begs the question of when original sin is laid upon us. Is it when we take our first breaths, when we're conceived? In both cases, they're back to square one on where the "innocents" go if they die before somebody sprinkles 'em.

The church is going to have a lot of very confused people on its hands.

[pretzel4gore]

20. what does it matter?

you know, i know and god knows little babies are scared beings, and some remain sacred until they're 90 years old. This question, in logistics, bugged the old timers so they papered over the problem with limbo, purgatory and hell etc. They argued the details, and different ideas gained traction, as in everything else...walk a paragraph in their shoes.
When Jesus was crucified, he was naked. Did mel gibson's movie show the actor hanging nude from the cross?
The old timers put little cloths on paintings of the crucifiction, of Adam and Eve, of cherubin etc,which was dishonest at worst, petty sacrilege at best....but how do you do it?
Same with hornyness: did Jesus ever get horny? The old timers cut your head off IF YOU ASKED, and when too many still insisted on asking, they devised answers, but they did not know, and it is funny to follow the arguments, with deep shame making the righteous dorks tie themselves in knots...
This question, about GOD and creation, how they relate, if they relate, and soon, have perplexed men since before Jesus' time...let's not mock our specie's efforts to answer the questions. There are answers though, believe it or not....

[Mme. Defarge]

21. I believe that St. Augustine

is credited for this contribution to Western Christian Theology. The Eastern Christian Church does not subscribe to this idea, but instead holds that we are only responsible for our own individual transgressions.

[B3Nut]

35. Augustine got it from Paul's epistles,

especially Romans, and his views influenced the Lutheran and Calvinist schools centuries afterward. Calvinists love it beacuse it forms a pillar for their predestinarian views. The Westminster Shorter Catechism is a concise summation of that particular school of thought.

It's a rather brutish and irrational doctrine, IMHO.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[struggle4progress]

23. "Original sin" means we are irremediably imperfect and cannot perfect ourselves:

we inevitably continue to do some evil despite all of our intentions of doing good.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Original sin is the theological way of stating the common saying,

"Nobody's perfect."

It is a statement of the fact that we are born thinking only of our own needs and have to be socialized to think of others. I think we've all known people who have never been socialized to consider the needs of others (we've got one of them in the White House right now), and they can be monstrous indeed.

[hedgehog]

26. Since Original Sin is so closely tied to Baptism, a little history is in order

Old understanding: the baby is contaminated by original sin and needs to be baptized asap in order to be saved.

New understanding: regardless of how the teaching of Original Sin is interpreted, Baptism is mainly the method by which someone is welcomed into the Christian community/Body of Christ. Therefore, should Grandma sneak the baby away to the priest because the parents have left the Church, the priest will not baptize the infant because it is unlikely that the infant will be raised in the Church.

Apparently, Original Sin is not mentioned in the Apostle's Creed and it is only implied (maybe) in the Nicene Creed; "I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sin".

Personally, I view Original Sin and the Fall of Adam as different in quality from such sins as stealing, adultery, murder, etc. Other sins result from a willful decision to do evil while Original sin seems to define a state of being. I think of "Original Sin" as a clumsy way of expressing the notion that we as humans are somehow separate from God and need to be reunited. Even many who consider themselves to be agnostic or atheist will consider humanity as somehow separate and distinct from the rest of the natural world or Nature although we are clearly a type of primate. Even some who deny the existence of a soul will insist that humanity is in discord with Nature.

[knitter4democracy]

27. Not in the Eastern Orthodox Church's theology.

When our theologians refer to original sin, they mean the sin in the Garden of Eden that introduced sin into all of Creation. We believe, though, that everyone is born good, just that it's easier to sin in a fallen Creation than not to (except for Jesus). The main reason our theologians didn't go with the Western Church's interpretation, that we are all born sinful, was the issue of babies. They just couldn't believe that a baby is born sinful and/or evil. That means that an unbaptized baby is going to hell, according to the Creed, and that sex is evil, since it brings about a sinful creation.

In the Western Church's tradition, though, yes, babies are born sinful and need to be baptized.

[Danger Mouse]

29. They change their minds.

Cause you know. They can do that. Psh. It makes something that makes no sense make even less sense...oh well...

[mondo obscurius]

34. original sin isn't so original

If you think about it, the spiritual burden of being born with original sin is the same scam they use to sell all religions of redemption and liberation. In the East a similar inhibition of being born with past life karma is used to the same effect. These dogmas are a convenient way of justifying to the masses the personal human costs of political, social and economic exploitation and oppression by an elite. We're told to and expected to accept this as the reality of "the way the world is." Very convenient for the ones who hold the power for now.

My own approach is a paradigm in which all of life is profoundly innocent - even the most supreme intelligence(s).

Thinking this way takes me places.

mo

[Az]

36. The problem of dead babies and suicides

So you have yourself a death based religion. You tell your followers that if they live by the rules then when they die they go to a better place. That is death is better than life. Of course you don't come out and say it like that. But that is what it is. Believers think life is better after they die.

But you need people to propogate the belief. You need them to adhere to it. Just telling people that when they die its nicer isn't going to cut it. First problem is that someone realizes that if life is sucking right now why not kill themself. Fast lane to heaven. So you have to include rules to keep the believers from killing themself unless they are doing so in a way that promotes belief in others (see Martyrs).

A bigger problem though for Christianity is the issue of dead babies. One of the hooks that Christianity uses is the concept of original sin. Somehow the actions of someone else in the past affects everyone and dams them to ... well damnation for all eternity. Thats a pretty heavy thing to tell someone. But its ok because Jesus will take that burden away ... as long as you believe in him. And thats where the dead babies come in.

Babies can't understand much of anything. They don't know about Jesus. God is a concept that is beyond their understanding. They are the first form of atheism. They are definately not on the saved list according to the rules. As the baby is dead its not going to notice this much. But the mother. They mother already griefstricken is going to be even more agonized by the concept of their baby burning in Hell. This is not going to go over well when evangelyzing the people.

So the Catholic Church invented the concept of Limbo. Borrowing from other religions they created the concept of a waiting place where those who were not truly bad would wait till the end of days to be absolved by God. Trouble is this is not in the bible. This is invention.

Thus the Catholic Church recently recanted its position on Limbo and instead honestly said they did not know what happens to dead babies but that they would have faith that the right thing would happen.

In other words they acknowledge that according to the rules of their faith dead babies have died in their sin and cannot enter into the presense of God but that this is such a horrible thing to consider that they are just going to hope that they get a do over or something.

The very concept of original sin and salvation are flawed. This is just one of the many ways it is exemplified.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

37. original sin is flawed is a gross understatement

Original sin is like dandruff.
Salvation via substitutionary atonement is like dandruff shampoo.

Original sin says "Everyone has dandruff. Therefore, you need this dandruff shampoo."

Original sin is an advertising scam. As a lawyer it offends my sense of justice. How would you like it if a cop pulled you off the street and went to the D.A., and the D.A. said "You're a living breathing human, therefore you are guilty of an offense and I'm indicting you, and throwing you in jail with no appeal." That's crooked and dishonest.

And if it wasn't for the concept of original sin, then people wouldn't need Jesus for substitutionary atonement. It's a big control scheme to control your money and your mind.
So it's all fear and control.

They don't know what happens after death and I do not know either. Except that I admit I don't know what happens after death.