I cannot find that faith in myself, never have to be honest. I tend to believe

[frankly_fedup2]

in Satan more than a God. To those of you who have that FAITH, do you have honest peace of mind? How did you get to that point? I don't trust televangelists at all. I look at it that any preacher that lives better than their congregation is not to be trusted. Am I wrong to think this way? Then there are the scandals of preachers. That really sets me against them.

I want to believe that my father, who passed in May, is in a better place; however, whenever the Bible speaks of "Death" it says, "The SLEEP of death." Does that mean my father is just asleep but in a different way then we sleep?

Does anyone believe in another dimension . . . that we move up? I kind of believe in that. I also believe that what people consider God were beings from somewhere back in Biblical times and even during the beginning of man, man went for millions of years with no real intelligence, suddenly, man starts making tools to hunt with, language, writing, etc. Even the Bible states the Angels of God were with the women of Earth. Could this be that we are part of these Aliens and part of evolution?

I'm just throwing some questions out there. I really want to know how to find that kind of faith because I definitely have something missing in my life as well as my purpose. I've tried different churches and demoninations and living in the South, there are some waaaaayyy out there churches. I was baptised in the Methodist Church and have attended the Lutheran Church (whose ceremony is really beautiful but the same every Sunday). The people ruin all the churches. I went to one new church and I swore the preacher was trying to avoid me.

Anyone have some of the answers or feel the same way?

[jgraz]

1. Sorry about your dad

My girlfriend lost both her parents over the summer. It's definitely not easy to go through that, especially during the holidays. All the best. :hi:

[frankly_fedup2]

11. Oh my gosh how horrible. I cannot imagine losing both of my

parents at the same time or more family members. I have never lost anyone close to me before. This was my first real feeling of great loss. I hope your friend is coping with it. If not, there are always some people that will help you out . . . even strangers with some kind words will help . . . just like all of you here have for me, and I sincerely appreciate your taking the time and being so kind.

[jgraz]

12. Yep, she's doing better every day

That's what we talked about when it happened. No matter how much it hurts, there's going to be a day when it doesn't hurt as much. There's going to be a day when you can laugh about times you shared with them without feeling overwhelmed with grief. It takes time, but everyone goes through this at some point and everyone has the strength to recover from it.

Try to spend a little time laughing with your Dad this Christmas.

[frankly_fedup2]

25. I thought on Christmas Day when everyone in the immediate family

is in that we would go up to his mauseleum and I got a candle that is suppose to smell like the ocean. I told my family the light from the candle would represent daddy and his spirit so it would sort of be like he was still with us. A friend told me their minister told them to do that whenever they visited the grave and they have and she says it is really comforting (surprisingly).

Thanks to everyone for all your suggestions. I hope you all have a safe, happy holiday and that you are hopefull for the new year.

[mrcheerful]

2. Death is the great unknown and for everyone it amounts to the same, hope for the best expect the

worst. Ever notice those who loudly proclaim their faith that they are going to be in a better place are the ones who fear death the most? I've seen fundies who loudly proclaim they have a place in the after life turn around and demand treatment that they would deny another. Most religions teach one thing, to be happy with ones lot in life because they will get a better "life" after they die. The way I came to terms with death is, after I'm dead I will know the unknown.

[Warpy]

3. Unfortunately for you, the last thing most churches want around

is somebody who's asking a lot of uncomfortable questions. Religious people take a great deal of comfort from a community of people who share all the same assumptions without question.

Someone on this board once offered a quote about how churches are meant to be hospitals for sinners, not museums for saints. Too many of the ones out there now either reject the sinners they've found out about or who give themselves a dispensation from following the laws of religion and state in the name of their pure belief.

The best of them are likely to be filled with people who are just as flawed as all of us are, whether they admit it or not.

The choice you have is in either accepting those flaws in the name of community or just going it alone and following the dictates of your own mind.

Remember, it's a journey, not a destination. Good luck.

[frankly_fedup2]

10. I heard something the other day about if you do not enjoy life then

it is your loss and you will never be given the chance again. It's a one-time journey. It seems like a friggin nightmare to me. Even before my father passed, just living is so hard on a daily basis. I am grateful for my family and friends and everyone safe and sound; however, they too have to struggle to carry on with existing.

That is all I have really ever felt . . .I just exist!

[Warpy]

16. Welcome to the human condition

and one of the worst sorts of misery is applied by those relentlessly sunny types who order you to enjoy your life no matter how sick/poor/alone you are in this world.

The thing is that they hurt, too. I know this because I've been a nurse for 25 years.

I confess I look at them like they've suddenly grown a second head when they try that crap on me. I just wonder how they interpret it.

[CJCRANE]

4. Interesting that you mention

the part of Genesis that my Grandad always told me about. He believed that it was proof of alien interference and that the human race is a sort of hybrid. He also thought that God's Chariot described in the Book of Ezekiel is actually a spaceship, and was into all the von Daniken books too (stuff about the Nazca lines, Easter Island statues, Dogon tribe etc).

By the way the Quran says that God is the "Lord of Sirius", which is where my Grandad believed the aliens originated from.

To me personally, they're all just tribal stories which can be interpretated in a hundred different ways (for instance look up the Gnostics and see how they interpreted Genesis, it's pretty much the first conspiracy theory).

[frankly_fedup2]

7. I have been reading a lot about the Gnostic's and how they believe

mostly of the divine feminine. Much like the Da Vinci Code to a certain extent. I don't find it odd that a man, even the so-called son of God, would have married and had children. The King James Bible is written for the benefit of the Catholic Church IMHO.

I had a friend who used the NIV Bible and took it to her church where her brother got a "calling" to preach. I prefer a minister who has studied in divinity school and then got a "calling." Those with a "calling" tend to be the most judgmental people I have ever met. Also, the smaller churches, nondenominational they say but are mostly the kind where they speak in tongues, writhe on the floor, handle snakes (not been to one of those yet but they are around), seen a preacher jump from one pew to the next babbling supposedly the words of God, also, saw a man covered in boils writhing on the floor when I was a child and it was rather frightening. All they preached was we were going to Hell and that was pretty much it. Anyway, my friend with the NIV was told by a fellow church goer that she would go to Hell if she continued with the false Bible. They claimed the KJV was the original Bible and God would frown upon her choice. Now to me, that is an ignorant human being who has no idea of how the Bible came about and by who.

I don't know what to think. I have read some of the Qua ran and that is a scary book IMO. The God in the Qua ran allows murder (infidel), torture (infidel), and behead the infidel if they do not convert to Islam. Allah seems to be a very violent God to the human race. I'm not dumping on the Muslims so please don't take it that way. I'm just stating what I read is all.

I haven't really read much of the Torah so I don't feel I could comment honestly on it.

Then these books were written by men who claimed they were the words God gave to them. Who knows what is the truth.

I kind of lean toward The Quantum Physics Theory of a Fifth Dimension. They have proven there is a Fifth dimension with the Atom; however, they do not know how to get there and get back. Maybe that is where we go . . . a higher level of consciousness in a higher dimension. Possibly that is why the Universe is 96% dark matter. We know there are black holes. NASA even has pictures of a star being eaten (for lack of a better word) by a black hole. It's all about the gravity and space. However, there never was a theory until recently regarding dark matter. Maybe that is what people are seeing when they claim to see UFO's as well as ghosts. Maybe these are beings that have lived before and somehow, either by trying or inadvertently crossed into the 4th dimension for a moment. Maybe they are trying to contact us.

It's like evolution versus Intelligent Design. We have proof dinosaurs were here. Of course, man did not live with the dinosaurs but did live with some big animals. A lot of people of faith cannot believe anyone could look at this Earth and Universe and just think it all came from a big bang. There had to be a superior being (i.e. aliens -- maybe?).

If you really think about this stuff too much you will drive yourself batty. I just wish I could find that faith in me that so many seem to have. I truly admire people that live the life they are suppose to live after being so-called "saved." They seem at peace and my mind has never had any peace. It continues to get worse with all the difficulties we all face.

Thanks to all for their condolences about my father. He was my best friend forever until I met my husband; and then he was still a close second. He was the epitome of a decent, hard-working, loved his family dearly, would give his last dime and/or shirt to anyone who truly needed it. He wasn't in church every Sunday and didn't belong to one when he died; however, if there is a Heaven, I have no doubt he is there. Yes, I miss him dearly.:cry:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. Couple of points here

The King James Bible was not "written" for the Catholic Church. It was the version translated for the Church of England, and for its day, it was pretty good. The problem with it is that the language, while beautiful, is too old to be easily understood, and the scholars of the period, while they had studied Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, didn't have the range of documents available to modern scholars. There are cases in which meanings of words have changed in English, and cases in which the Hebrew was mistranslated because there were no Jews in England at the time (they had been expelled long before), so the English scholars had no one to check their translation with.

The most famous example is the phrase from the Book of Isaiah, "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son..."

Evidently (I learned this in the course I'm taking at church), the original Hebrew actually means, "Look, a young woman is pregnant and will bear a son," allowing the interpretation that Isaiah is talking about a contemporary event and that the mother is probably not a virgin.

In the mainstream denominations and the fundamentalist churches alike, you get a "call" to go into ministry. The difference is that mainstream clergy have to go through a "quality control" process, which among the Episcopalians, at least, includes a year of meeting with a so-called "discernment committee," writing a heap of essays, being approved by one's parish, being approved by one's diocese, being admitted to seminary, spending three years in post-graduate study, doing a year of internship as a deacon, and finally being ordained. This tends to keep the riffraff out.

The Torah is simply the first five books of the Bible. You may be thinking of the Talmud, which is Jewish commentaries on the Bible.

[lesab]

5. It's all personal

I find my own personal peace with God. I follow a certain religion because it is the closest to how I believe, but I put my faith in a greater goodness than men. I don't trust anyone who has to proclaim it aloud as if to say "look at me". Goodness and love come from within and in order to live it you only have to look inside. I agree with you that the loudest are usually the least. Jesus called them hypocrites. It says alot to me that you are looking for peace in an open and honest way.

I also believe that there is another realm that we pass to when we die. I call it heaven but who knows. I personally think that life on this earth tends to suck, therefore I am greatly looking forward to this passing over. I don't think it can be worse than this life thats for sure.

It makes sense to me to hope for the best and have a little faith. I wish you the best and send my deepest regards to you for the loss of your loved ones.

[frankly_fedup2]

8. Thanks for the condolences lesab. It's a very hard time, the hardest really,

in my life to face this knowing I can do nothing.

I sort of believe as you have stated. This World pretty much sucks and is cruel, inhuman, and surely if there is a God, we all will go to a better place. I was talking with my sister and told her that if there is a God (she is a devout Lutheran), surely that God would not put us on this Earth with loved ones and then suddenly just take them away from us to never see again. That would be sadistically cruel. We are taught God is a loving God but we are also to fear God. Why must we fear God? Also, I still do not get why God sent us his son to be crucified and murdered for our sins. I've heard that he did it because he promised us that he would never flood the Earth again like the great flood with Noah. I've also read the next time the human race will die from fire.

There are so many opinions and ideas and thoughts out there and I'm lost.

I just need to know my father is okay. I need to know that he is in a better place and without any pain. I cannot stand the thought that he still would have any level of consciousness in this World. My father constantly told me he did not want to be buried in the ground. I thought he had purchased a mausoleum for himself and my mother but when we went to make the arrangements, there was nothing but enough money for the funeral and no plots. I told my sister what dad had always told me and she and I and our husbands paid half for a mausoleum place for my father and one for our mother. It was expensive but the thought of him in the ground when I knew he never wanted to be there would have drove me insane. We were both grateful we could afford it at the time. My mother seems to be resentful of the mausoleum stating he had no business being in something like that when the rest of his family is in the ground. I told her it was his wish and the thought of him in the ground would have killed me because that is not what he wanted.

Anyway, sorry so long but I am sincerely grasping for some kind of hope, peace, sanity to a certain extent. I want to believe there is a God and a Heaven so beautiful we couldn't even begin to picture it, and we see our family again, and everyone is without pain and fear. I so want that to be true but where is the proof. I know, I know there is no 100% proof but is there anything that we could use as some kind of proof? Sorry to be rambling. :cry:

[CJCRANE]

6. By the way

a book I like is "The Illustrated Book of Sacred Scriptures".

It has sayings from all the different religions and holy books on different subjects. I find it comforting sometimes to read how Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc often say similar things.

[frankly_fedup2]

9. Thanks for the reference. I'll look for the book at my library unless it is

brand new. If I find it comforting, I'll buy it. Thanks again for the suggestion.

[Evoman]

14. I've never found faith....

and honestly, my life has been fine without it. I think people give to much credit to religion and their church...surviving a hardship is not due to other people, or churches, although they can help. Surviving, and thriving even in adversity, is due to your own inner strength.

Trust me, you've got it in spades.

[frankly_fedup2]

30. Thanks for the vote of confidence but I think your giving me more

credit then I'm due. I appreciate it though.

I just don't see that over time anything is getting better. My mother seems to be getting more paranoid, nice to me (which is really odd), and then accuses me of stealing her jewelry. She keeps hiding things in her house and then claims somebody comes and gets them. When she comes and stays with me and my husband, when my husband comes home, I have told her to give him an hour or so to unwind (like I do), and then we sit and talk or eat dinner, whatever. He will always come in and give me a kiss and now she makes him kiss her. It's creeping me out. He hasn't said anything and I haven't said anything, but he may just feel sorry for her. Then she beelines for the den and stays in there until he goes to bed. He says he does it to give me a break, which it does give me a big one or I would be in the loony bin. However, I know he is stressed by the end of his day at work and needs some time to himself. I've told her over and over about leaving him alone for an hour but to no avail. She just ignores me and I really don't get a chance to talk to my husband at all.

When my dad first passed away, she went down to about 95 pounds. She was around 115-130 all her life but was closer to the 115 when he died. When she started staying with us and my cooking and serving her and my husband doing the same, she has now gained up to 108 pounds (just 9 more to go). Anyway, when I brought it up to my husband that mother was gaining weight she started acting all insulted like I was putting her down. She was like, "I'm going to have to start watching what I'm eating. She looks human now . . . before she looked anorexic. My point is she acts like a silly pre-teenager around my husband and this is her son-in-law, whom she never acted so goofy with before. Also, if I take her out to the store (which is quite often now that she seems to have a hobby in shopping), she will point out how some man looked at her this way or that way. It's pathetic to say the least. She is 77 years old and yes, as a young girl was home coming queen, pretty, weighed around 90 pounds, and all those things that make girls popular (except the things that make them popular now); however, she doesn't seem to grasp the fact now that at 90 pounds she looks like a skeleton and not every man we pass is paying attention to her. My dad has been gone since May and she already thinks men are paying attention to her.

All because she is thin and when she grew up, as it is today, if your thin, you can look like you walked into a wall, but if your thin, you are considered much more attractive then if you are the least bit overweight. My sister and I never knew what a soda was or potato chips until we were teenagers. I remember the first time I ate at a McDonald's I was 16. We had some ice cream on Sundays and that was it. So she thinks if she stays thin, and even points it out to my husband, her son-in-law for the past 17 years, in an attempt to keep his then she will get attention. As soon as his feet hit the floor so do hers.

[peanutbrittle]

15. I lost six family members in a period of 6 years

4 grandparents, father liver disease (from childhood), mother murdered. Tough time of my life as I was about 26 years old at that time.

My father left a library of books in his search for the truth before he died. I started reading and reading, finally sorting through what made sense and what did not...weeding them out one by one.

I ended up choosing the Bible and one other book that made the most sense to me and helped to give me comfort. I cannot post the other here, as you may well know due to the controversial nature of some of the material and don't want to ruin your thread.

The 5th dimension quantum physics theory...very cool! Thanks
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13070896/

I like pondering and the thrill of the search. I like the thought of science eventually proving the existence of higher intelligence/ beings universal structure and the significance of the writings in the Bible.

Interesting you believe in the existence of Satan but not God? Having trouble figuring out that frame of thought.

[Az]

17. You can mention anything you want

Particularly when you are referring to what is relevant to you. Its when you advocate it as being relevant to others that they may take issue with your suggestion.

[peanutbrittle]

18. Just couldn't resist could you....

Very philosophical,

He asked our opinion...so what is relevant to me may very well be relevant to him in his life journey.

Sometimes understanding the nature of the trees helps in understanding the nature of the forest.

[Az]

19. I just didn't want

you to think that you could not express yourself. This forum exists for discussing some pretty contentious issues. Expect to have people disagree with you, sometimes strongly, about issues you are advocating. But when someone asks for your opinion you should not hide your position away just because others disagree with you.

[peanutbrittle]

20. I understand...

I understand the issue and the book are, unfortunately, controversial with some and probably best left alone here. Was actually thinking of posting a new thread pertaining to DNA research and the God vs. no- God debate. Saw a good article at Huffington written by Deepak Chopra and he lays out the issues nicely without taking sides (I think) But it may have been discussed here in futility already....LOL.


regards

[Az]

21. That is what this forum is for

And yes expect a struggle trying to promote Depaak's theories here.

Look, we believe different things. Some of these things we may be quite passionate about. We disagree. It doesn't mean you are persona non grata. I am pretty certain there are probably more things we agree about than disagree.

The point is this particular forum is for discussing ideas that may simply be too incindiary for GD. As long as it doesn't get personal pretty much any idea involving belief can be discussed in this forum. So pack some asbestos underwear and post your ideas and we will try to tear them to shreads (while others may support them).

[peanutbrittle]

22. Deepak isn't pushing any theory (I don't think) in the article...

He simply put together the comprehensive list of the issues to be debated from what I could tell from skimming the article.

The last thread took alot of energy out of me...LOL....didn't get much support but I can guarantee you there are some readers here who are interested in what it had to say. At the very least there is some serious cosmic wisdom in the book for those who wish.

Thought for the day:

(I didn't write this)

If this were a mechanistic universe, if God were only a force and not also a personality, if all creation were a vast aggregation of physical matter dominated by precise laws characterized by unvarying energy actions, then might perfection obtain, even despite the incompleteness of universe status. There would be no disagreement; there would be no friction. But in our evolving universe of relative perfection and imperfection we rejoice that disagreement and misunderstanding are possible, for thereby is evidenced the fact and the act of personality in the universe. And if our creation is an existence dominated by personality, then can you be assured of the possibilities of personality survival, advancement, and achievement; we can be confident of personality growth, experience, and adventure. What a glorious universe, in that it is personal and progressive, not merely mechanical or even passively perfect!

[Az]

23. Chaos is a wonderful thing

Unpredictability from order.

Of course there are going to be people that are interested in the things you talked about. Not everyone has the same motivators for what they embrace. We all develop our own collection of tools to help them sift through the flood of information presented to them. Some people look to signs and patterns and try to assemble some sense of what they believe they have found. Others plod through evidence and processes in order to make sense of what is going on.

[peanutbrittle]

24. No.....I doubt

that my beliefs and philosophical cosmic thoughts which mainly can be attributed to the U book and in conjunction with the Paramony can be posted here without it ending up in a locked thread, no matter what portion of the book that gets quoted, no matter how meaningful, there will always be an attempt to discredit by those who will pull out the race card because they can't see the forest for the trees. Never mind the gems of cosmic wisdom, insight into evolution, deity, religion and the teachings of the attributes of truth, beauty and goodness the book envelopes. It will always be attacked by the pack of wolves until the thread gets shut down.

The arguments I presented will stand and the arguments presented by others will stand as well.

My guess is there are many more than meet the eye reading the book now who never even knew it existed just from the exposure it received here.

Very unfortunate indeed and it will just have to be left up to others to find the book on their own & make their own personal decision about the papers.

[frankly_fedup2]

27. You wouldn't have the URL to some of those threads would you? The

DNA part interests me as I have heard something about that myself. No detail here but I read or saw on the Discovery channel about finding the true descendents from Adam and Eve (aren't we all suppose to be???) through DNA and certain tribes in Africa. Now where they got anything to compare with the people now, I don't know, but some interesting subject matter.

By the way, I'm sorry for such a loss, 6 people in one year seems increadibly cruel. How did you keep your sanity? Do you have any siblings still with you, aunts and uncles maybe? Did you get any counseling and/or did you feel you needed to? Just reply "Nunya" if I'm getting too personal to soon. I would completely understand.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

29. " Never mind the gems of cosmic wisdom, insight into evolution, deity, religion...

and the teachings of the attributes of truth, beauty and goodness the book envelopes."

Uh huh. Just like the cosmic wisdom you can find in Mein Kampf if you ignore all of the other stuff.

"there will always be an attempt to discredit by those who will pull out the race card because they can't see the forest for the trees."

Damn, don't you just hate those mean old atheists and their silly racism issues!

How dare they bash a religion just because its core tenets include racism, slavery, eugenics and genocide?

[cosmik debris]

31. "discredit by those who will pull out the race card" ???

I revisited the Urantia site to see how many references to race I could find.

http://www.ubfellowship.org/urantiabook/topical_index/150.htm#R

See for yourself. It is the U book that plays the race card. Over and over again. Relentlessly driving home the point that some races are inferior.

You may be willing to look for pearls in a pile of manure, but I will stick to looking in oysters.

[frankly_fedup2]

26. Science is on the threshold of so much now. With cloning a woman

can have a child without a man. Yes we need sperm but if women wanted to take over the world (Sci-fi channel movie), all they would have to do is take over all the sperm banks. Whoever dreamed procreation would be in a petri dish?

I would love to hear about the other books and some of their theories and/or possibilities. PM here on DU if you don't care. I don't understand where anything is too controversial. It seems we have been discussing and others as well all kinds of possibilities.

I'm looking at everything trying to understand. I just want to understand???

As far as believing in Satan more then a God . . .I guess that comes from the constance of evil in our day-to-day living. All we seem to hear about is evil. All we see anymore is evil in the World as a whole. Why would a superior being who loves us so much allow us to suffer so? I know it's suppose to be our "choice." or at least that is what is claimed (I've heard anyway) . . . we make the choices that direct our lives. However, there are forces that can lead us in the wrong direction. Some of us are stronger then others when it comes to compassion, honesty, truthfulness, having a conscience.

I have always thought that if there IS a God, it is our conscience that speaks to us.

[peanutbrittle]

33. Evil.....just a thought

THE PROBLEM OF EVIL

http://urantiabook.org/archive/readers/doc796.htm

"Evil is more clearly seen for what it is, when allowed to run its evolutionary course. We are being thoroughly trained to recognize and resist all of the dynamics of evil. Finally, far more good will accrue in the universe by this evolutionary process of overcoming evil, than by applying arbitrary solutions. God inaugurated an evolutionary universe out of a Fatherly love to share himself with creation, even though at immature levels, the problem of evil would be a stumbling block to the comprehension of the wisdom of the basic purpose of this creative process."

There are many more thoughts on this subject within the actual 196 papers as well.

[Danger Mouse]

28. How are you doing? Are you alright?

I've been worried about you.

[catbert836]

34. Personally, sleep would be heaven for me.

If that's what we go to, then in many ways for me, it would be a far better thing than I ever have known.

Apologies to Charles Dickens.

[frankly_fedup2]

35. No more consciousness? All nothingness (is that a word?) Well,

to be honest sitting here on this night I have to say I'm sad, angry, depressed, lonely (even though husband is asleep and mother is in bed asleep), and almost cannot breathe. I feel defeated in my feelings, my emotions. I swear I could explode . . . I wish I could scream.

[struggle4progress]

36. I don't seek peace-of-mind; and frankly, I think that to have peace-of-mind ..

.. would be immoral, given the the world-as-it-actually-is. On the other hand, most people disagree with me about that, and I'm strongly inclined to be sympathetic to people who want peace of mind.

I'm a Christian materialist: I naturally expect that when my physical body ceases to live, I will be dead-dead-dead and gone, the way a candle-flame is gone when the candle is blown out. Against this, I have the absurd and utterly ridiculous hope that in the fullness of time, on the very last day, I will be raised up anew. Since everything else about the world seems miraculous to me, the idea that Love is eternally powerful, far beyond my ability to imagine and understand, does not seem unreasonably childish to me.

I cannot tell you where your father came from or where he went, since I do not know. But consider the Love that was between you and trust what your heart tells you of such things.