Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Why they lie to us - "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:01 PM
Original message
Why they lie to us - "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"
Yes, the 2004 presidential election was rigged.

In my opinion.

Now don’t go jumping to conclusions about how I arrived at that opinion until you know what I know. I did not merely jump on the bandwagon with the tin-foil hat people and start pointing at all the weird stuff and calling it fraud. No, I knew the vote was rigged before we even had the election.
In fact, people have known the fix was in for years, myself included.

Now, before you start telling me “It can’t be done”, “No one could get away with something like that”, or (even better) “Our leaders are men of integrity and would never do that.” – let me tell you a quick story.

In the mid-eighties I knew a person who was a master thief. He mastered only one principle – hide in plain sight.
During the course of an entire summer, he spent a great deal of time in department stores.
He would go into the store quietly, go to electronics, put some batteries in a large portable stereo, and walk around with the ‘Ghetto Blaster’ on his shoulder for a while.
(That was the fad at the time – to walk around with a large portable stereo on one’s shoulder.)
He would walk around the store for an hour with the stereo on his shoulder - long enough for the people in the store to get used to him. He would buy a couple of tapes and browse for a bit in the record department.
Eventually, he would simply walk right out the front door.
He was considered a good customer.

It was months before anyone started to catch on – he was careful to do this at different stores and only a few times a week.
It was impossible for the salespeople at the stores to wrap their heads around the idea that he could be shoplifting right in front of them.
Suffice it to say; he made a bit of extra cash that summer.

He proved that the best way to circumvent suspicion is to commit a crime right in front of everyone, he didn’t have to fool anyone – they would fool themselves.

This election was stolen in front of everyone, and since no one could get away with that - it must not have happened.

So – we’ve known for years that the makers of the electronic voting machines are very big Republican supporters.
We know that these machines do not produce a paper trail that can be audited.
We know that Republicans fought against legislation to make paper receipts mandatory.
We know that the machines send their totals to a central database that we know can be hacked and the vote totals changed. How do we know this? Every computer tech and software engineer knows it, a number of them have explained it, and one even taught a chimpanzee how to do it to demonstrate just how simple the process is.
And, they said, that was doing it the ‘hard’ way.
The easy way would be if you had the phone number for the central tabulator, then you wouldn’t have to use good ol’ fashioned ‘War Dialing’ to find the open modem.

We know that the CEO of Diebold wrote a letter in 2003 saying, “I am committed to helping Ohio deliver it’s electoral votes to the President next year.”
We know that HAVA (Help America Vote Act) promoted the proliferation of these machines throughout the country. (Mostly in ‘swing’ states)
We know that many anomalies were reported where the touch-screen machines were used which caused
-Votes for Democrats to become votes for Libertarians,
-Votes for Kerry became votes for Bush and vice-versa,
-More votes than registered voters were recorded in many precincts with machines,
-Counties with 77% registered Democrats voted 77% for Bush (The reverse never occurred),
- Zogby put his reputation on the line when he called the race for Kerry on election night. (He’s never been wrong.)
-Exit poll data, which has historically never been more than 2% off, was upwards of 5% off ONLY in counties that employed electronic voting machines, and those wide margins ONLY favored Bush in swing states.
(Kerry never beat exit poll numbers by more than 1.6%)

Proof?
Not at all, it’s all a lot of circumstantial evidence, a mountain of circumstantial evidence whose happy coincidences share probability levels with you winning your state lottery twice in one week.

To sum up:

The makers of the paperless, un-auditable, easily hackable voting machines are heavy Bush supporters.
Every single anomaly in critical states favored Bush.

Ok, so you may not be convinced that this was a stolen election, neither was I after studying and verifying these things. But I will admit to concern – a concern we all should have regarding the validity of these machines. I can guarantee when you have a candidate, whether Republican or Democrat or other who loses in a very unlikely and suspicious upset after looking like the clear winner – you’ll share my concern about these machines.

And all this doesn’t even address the more conventional methods of voter disfranchisement that took place;
Ex-felons never removed from ‘purge lists’ (against federal law), too few machines in heavily populated urban areas (areas that tend to vote Democrat) causing people to stand in line for over eight hours, going door to door to ‘collect’ votes from elderly voters so they could ‘stay home’.

Business as usual…

Ok- so I’m still not convinced, what would posses a group of people to go to such lengths to fix an election.
To rule the most powerful nation on earth you say?
Maybe, but we’ll toss that idea out for now in lieu of something MUCH more important.

Oil.

That’s right – oil.

“Oh, you’re saying that just because Dick Cheney got his money from oil, and Bush got his money from oil, and Condi Rice got her money from oil, and the whole administration stands to make a whole lot of money from oil and weapons sales, that they’re going to war for oil profits.”
That may or may not be true, but that’s not what I’m getting at.

We have a MUCH bigger problem than whether or not this administration is corrupt.

In fact, corruption and vote-rigging aside, they may be trying to SAVE us.
No- not from terrorists; they’ve proven far too incompetent or unwilling to protect us from the terrorists. If you still live in that world – fine. But it’s unlikely that terrorists are going to get you.

Peak oil will.

(Right about now, you should be getting ready to either pee yourself or put your denial circuitry into high Ghz.)

You see, the thing this administration is trying to save us from has nothing to do with terrorism, but the smarter people that this administration listens to know that, frankly, Americans are too plug stupid to wrap their heads around the truth.
Saying we’re fighting terrorism is the best way they have of getting Americans to support their policies, if they told Americans the truth – they wouldn’t be able to save us… from ourselves.

So let me try to explain:

Our problem is twofold – ‘Reserve Currency’ and ‘Peak Oil’.
“What’s peak oil?”
Well, it’s a relatively simple concept a Dr. Hubbard figured out decades ago which goes something like this:
“Every year, oil consumption and subsequent demand has risen by a considerable percent. Every year, oil producing nations and drilling companies make efforts to increase oil production to service growing demand. There will come a point where oil production hits capacity and ‘peaks’, at this point, oil production will plateau for a time and then begin to decline. This will happen regardless of the fact that demand continues to rise.”

Typical ‘Amurkin’, “So? What’s that mean?”
Me, “It means that oil will no longer be produced fast enough to meet demand and prices will rise dramatically.”
‘Amurkin’, “So’s I have ta pay more fer gas? Geez, guess I’ll have to put in fer overtime soon.”
Me, “Aside from the guy you voted for taking away overtime benefits for workers, it wouldn’t help anyway. You see, your employer will have to pay those higher prices too, so he will be unlikely to pay overtime (neat how it would appear the administration saw this coming), in fact, there’s a very good chance you’ll be laid off if his business doesn’t fold altogether.”
‘Amurkin’, “But we lay carpet, sure we’ll have to pay a little more fer gas, but he can just raise his price a little bit ta make up fer it.”
Me, “And there you have hit the carpet tack on the head. Your employer buys his carpet from a manufacturer. That manufacturer has increased costs because;

A) The cost of his raw materials have increased dramatically because; 1) those materials are petroleum based, 2) it costs more to ship those materials due to the higher cost of fuel.
B) The cost to ship those carpets to your company ALSO went up, so your employer has to absorb all those extra costs from the company he purchases from.

Therefore, your employer will be paying the increased costs for all the businesses he buys from, all the businesses they buy from, AND for all the energy he needs to run his business.
Ultimately, no one will be able to afford to buy carpet from him at the prices he will need to stay in business. He will have to close down.

As energy costs go up, pay rates for labor will not. People will become less and less able to afford expensive goods and services due to the increased cost of energy.”

‘Amurkin’, “Well what about all them other things fer energy, like solar, natural gas, windmills and stuff?”

Me, “Not a bad idea – but those sources do not produce enough energy at the price it would cost to get them running. If we spent every penny we would normally spend on oil on those other sources instead, we would produce less than one percent of the energy we get from oil. Oh, and of course in order to produce those things we would need…”

“Oil?”

“You guessed it ‘Amurkin’, no matter what we try to do now – it will cost oil, and the price will not go down.”

“You make it sound like the whole world needs oil.”

“It does. In one century we have had an explosion of growth and progress, all because of high-yield, low cost oil. The civilization we have now is a direct product of oil. Without oil, we would have never got here. Without oil, society cannot have all the modern conveniences we have now. Without oil – we lose the ability to sustain society.”

‘Amurkin’, “So we’ll have to go back to farmin’ and usin’ horses… I could do that.”

Me, “Well, that would be very nice… except for one thing… there’s too many of us. The only reason we have been able to produce and distribute enough to sustain society is…”

“Oil…”

“Yep, now… imagine the entire population of this country turning on it’s own resources to sustain themselves. All the wood chopped for heat, all the animals hunted for food. Even if we tried – we could not possibly re-create a self-sustaining civilization unless we lost two-thirds of the population. Meanwhile, every available natural resource will be consumed.”

For a moment, I see a glimmer of real understanding in ‘Amurkin’s’ eye, in the next moment – he starts to chuckle.

“Damn boy! You really had me goin’ there! Well, I gotta get to work, the guys’ll get a kick out of yer ‘end o’ the world’ story. Have a good ‘n.”

So you can see why no politician in his right mind would try to tell a whole bunch of people that we have to ration driving hours by business need, get rid of all the SUV’s, and tell people they only get so much ‘expendable gas’ for recreation.
Besides – even if they did do all that, people would find the loopholes.

‘Yep – all them damn liberals tryin’ ta take away yer rights!’

So I’ll be the first to laugh when someone says, “Why weren’t we warned? Why didn’t our government DO anything?”
- Cause you would’ve voted them out of office, that’s why.

Oh yeah – and the peak oil production thingy…happens next year.

Oh, but don’t worry – Our government has a two part energy plan to slow down our inexorable plunge:

1) Invade countries with oil.
2) Kill anything that gets in the way.

Naturally, they knew Americans couldn’t stomach the truth. Americans can’t think ahead in terms of ‘giving stuff up’ now to prepare for the future. That’s just not American.

So, our ‘Commander in Chief’ must see to the success of our agenda, which first meant that he HAD to win the election at ANY cost. Next it means that we are bout to invade another country – I’m thinkin’ Iran. (Hope china doesn’t get too pissed off.) And of course – there will be a draft, it will be the only way to invade and occupy oil-bearing nations.

Oh yeah, and there’s gonna be nukes too… lots of nukes.

What if Kerry won?
It wouldn’t matter – we still have to pursue a similar policy.
Unless, of course, he had the political brass to stand up, tell us the truth and start putting some very stringent and unpopular orders in place. (But at least he could pronounce ‘nuclear’.)

Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong at this point, please do your best to do so, and with good solid facts.

But I’m not usually wrong.


Dr. Garth Eldritch

*A thanks to DU’er ‘Peak_Oil’ for bringing this to my attention – what fun!
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm not gonna try to convince you otherwise
The only thing is, I think you give Bush way too much credit

Now the men behind the curtain... that is another story

;-)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Oh no- Bush is an absolute Fucking moron...
But I'm sending this to bipartisan and Republican sites, people who may dismiss out-of hand if I bash Bush** too badly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zeebo Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. More on this subject
Just in case that wasn't enough to ponder.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Thanks for link
We seem largely ignorant of our economy being so dependent on the oil dollar and foreign investment. If we were there would be more panic.

The state of our economy , the falling dollar and increasing debt makes us a less logical choice...but even more it would be the best revenge on an arrogant nation that in the eyes of the world isn't listening to reason.

I have been aware of the oil dollar issue for some time because my friends in Europe told me, they were certain of war as soon as Iraq switched to the Euro.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. What about
the economic fact that when something gets scarce, and the price goes up...the market finds an alternative?

What about 'good ol American know-how'?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Re-read... markets collapse in a certain cost-benefit discrepancy.
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Markets won't collapse
There are 6 billion people in the world...not just the few in the US. Others have already addressed this problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Michael Rupert has been talking about peak oil for a long time
But, he does not give Bush credit at all, and, in fact, quite the opposite.

I would tend to believe his theories much more than what is being said above.

As far as I am concerned, Bush does not have anyone's best interests in mind except his families, and thr elite who support him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrdmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. I agree with you except for one thing
Mr. Bush Jr. made some money on oil speculation, but everybody who invested in his companies lost their ass. Mr. Bush Jr. made most of his money ripping off the Texas taxpayer with an investment into a baseball team with (you guess it) other people's money.

Mr. Chenney's track record is mixed with being the C.E.O. of Haliburton (sp.?). For the amount of Money the company paid this man, in my opinion, they could have done better with someone else.

One thing both of these people have in common is the corruption and the destruction that lies in their wake. I just hope to hell all of us do not lose our ass as so many have before us have. It would almost be like combining two books into one, "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire", and "The Rise and Fall of the United States of America Empire".

I just hope we can stop the madness, we do have the technology.

mrdmk


P.S. We will run out oil faster if these idiots don't stop spilling it all over the ground.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sammi Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. Supply and Demand
Forecasting is not an exact science. It's an assumption.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maxsmom Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. BRAVO!
I couldn't have said it better myself. I've been beating my head against the wall, trying to get people to understand what's going on. Just because you don't think it can happen doesn't mean it can't happen. Just because you don't want it to be true doesn't make it not true. Just because it's never been part of your reality up to this point doesn't mean it's not going to become part of your reality at some point.

There are some incredibly well researched and presented materials on the subject. Below are just a few:

Dry Dipstick http://www.drydipstick.com/
YES Magazine article http://63.135.115.158/default.asp?id=115
Energy Bulletin http://www.energybulletin.net/news.php
Financial Sense Newshour Interview with Matt Savinar http://www.netcastdaily.com/fsnewshour.htm
From the Wilderness http://www.fromthewilderness.com/
Hubbert Peak of Oil Production http://www.hubbertpeak.com/
Richard Heinberg's Muse Letter http://www.museletter.com/index.html
OilCrash.com http://www.oilcrash.com/
Powerswitch.org http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/
Surviving Peak Oil http://www.survivingpeakoil.com/index.php
The Community Solution http://www.communitysolution.org/index.html
The New York Times Business Section http://www.nytimes.com/business/businessspecial2/
Post Carbon Institute http://www.postcarbon.org/
Oil Scenarios http://www.oilscenarios.info/
Wolf at the Door http://www.wolfatthedoor.org.uk/

IMHO there are two ways to approach the impending oil crisis--with aggression (take what everyone else has, killing everything in our path, to maintain the chosen few for as long as possible) or humanely (working together with our countries, and with our own citizens to develop strategies and alternatives that might slow down the process). Our government has obviously chosen the aggressive route without even asking us what approach we'd like to take. That's what I resent most, not even being given the opportunity to voice my opinion. And don't tell me that I had the opportunity through voting because that was stolen right out from under me. What irks me even more is that we've been being set up for this fall long before now. We could've and should've been working on alternatives for the last 30 years, but weren't given the opportunity in order to preserve profit, competition, and capitalism. They dangled the American Dream carrot in front of us and kept us pushing toward what would be our ultimate demise. And now, the situation may be completely out of our control.

What to do now? We all have to do what we have to do. I, personally, am making a pledge to at least try to minimize the anguish and to keep the most positive frame of mind I can through this. I choose to Reject the Hate. http://rejectthehate.blogspot.com/ For my own peace of mind. Because we're all going to need as much peace of mind as we can possibly get.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. WOW! - great resources Thank You! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stirringstill Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. TOFU Democracy
I've heard estimates for peak oil production range from one to twenty years. When that peak hits, things will get uglier and uglier. Have no doubt, we will be drilling in Anwar. Abandoning SUVs for hybrid cars will do little to help since what oil we don't use, another nation like China will. Thus, there is little reason to not drink long and deep now for oil will gone no matter how much we "conserve." As sage Cheney said, conserving is little more than a personal virtue. And so we wait for some yet to be discovered technology to save as the charade begins-- waiting for hours in a line to vote only to deliver a mandate in a voice that is strangely not our own. We are shown maps of red states. The chorus singing about the man of the year Rove. Just bought some duct tape and killed some Insurgents. OMG is that a gay next door? Gotta go, verdict is in for the Peterson trial?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Did I miss the Peterson trial? Durn
A couple of things, and a thanks to the good Dr. Eldritch.

People know. Deep down, they know. It's why so many are for the Iraq quagmire, it's why they didn't raise hell about the higher gas prices. But anybody tries to tell 'em out loud, and they close up real quick like.

Pres. Carter knew. He started to talk about it, that sealed his fate.

Kerry will begin, as he said, an alternative energy program. He'd have a hard time getting the US out of the ME but I believe he will.

But really, it is much too late for most of us to alter the future course of events which are coming due to Peak. All we can do is begin insulating ourselves for the coming cold.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
buzzard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. Dr Eldritch
I am afraid I have to agree with this assessment, it is not about "spreading freedom" even Bush I believe understands this. Also China's use will become greatly increased so peak oil may be sooner rather than later. I thought most people understood this but avoided mentioning it. Your Canadian Neighbor
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
15. Since Fallujah, I've been saying "I've got to go fill my car up with
Iraqis blood." It really is the same thing. Your article is depressing, as truth often is, and I agree with it in part.

"Imagine the entire population of this country turning on it’s own resources to sustain themselves. All the wood chopped for heat, all the animals hunted for food. Even if we tried – we could not possibly re-create a self-sustaining civilization unless we lost two-thirds of the population. Meanwhile, every available natural resource will be consumed.”

This statement would require more proof. An interesting read; thanks.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You caught me...
those were numbers off the top of my head, estimates if you will.

They were not based on science (my apologies), because there is none.

I simply took a look at the energy production differential decline trend relevant to the the most dependant populations and most vulnerable industries with regard to loss of 'macro-sustainability' (different projection altogether), the diaspora of said populations (people will have to leave cities)resulting in resource-conflicts and subsequent remaining resources to support a populous I extrapolated that; things would settle down if we got down to a third of our current population.

Again- pure intellectual extrapolation without any hard science.

Your input would be greatly appreciated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I really believe that we will come up with alternative energy sources
that will not require fossil fuel...but with this current administration so oil and war greedy (virtual war profiteers like the concept was invented for them), the chances of much needed research into alternative energy are slim to none. Our entire culture is based upon transportation. As Americans, we can't even walk to the grocery store, let alone work. And can you try and visualize our freeways crowded with horses at 'rush hour?' (But the horse poop generated can be utilized as an alternate energy source.) To be honest, I just can't see The U.S. changing into a European way of life, where you can walk or bus or train ride anywhere without the need for a car...but maybe we'll be forced into it--you argue that there is no maybe so long as we depend on oil. And I believe that we will come up with alternative energy, but not any time soon. Way too much money to be made by the Halliburtons of the world, and for them, the scarcer the oil, the better. (And I don't think that we will have a diaspora.)

Thought provoking post-I'll think more about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. What - you haven't heard talk of a diaspora?
LOL - sorry, couldn't resist.

How's Canada this time of year?

There is hope, but it will require the Bush administration to acknowledge that we are close to making fusion work for real...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3997249.stm

Fat fucking chance - these morons are locked into their 'End of the World' psychology.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. LOL! I think B* followers are into the ridiculous "rapture" "Israel" old
testament and Revelations myth, but B*'s 'religion' is 100% phony ca-ca. All Rovian inspired. Rove has Machiavelli's Prince memorized. And Machiavelli said that the greatest thing for a leader was to appear to be religious...seems to work with the evangelicals.

I'm interested in tapping into the chlorophyll reservoir of the ocean as potential fuel. Would be an ideal biodegradable renewable energy source that actually had O2 as a by-product...

Canada looks great to me! I have a wonderful Canadian friend who lives in Houston, and we both recently talked after the election. She was so disappointed. She's worried that B* might come after their oil; and they know how to conserve; tax deductions are given I think for environmentally friendly cars and gas conservation.

Wow! Thanks for the link. (Interesting the U.S. wasn't even mentioned in that article!)

The rewards, if this can be made to work on the large scale, are extremely attractive.

One kilogram of fusion fuel would produce the same amount of energy as 10,000,000 kg of fossil fuel. What is more, fusion, although it does produce radioactive waste, does not generate the quantities of long-term high-level radiotoxic waste that burdens nuclear fission.






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
18. BushCo "may be trying to save us"?
Yeah. Right. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. One usually convinces oneself that his greed in the interest...
of someone else.

I really think they believe they are acting in our best interest, but their arrogance precludes them from knowing what that interest may REALLY be.

Oh yeah - and they suck at it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sodium Pentothal Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
23. Very nice post!
I'll lose my anonymity now to praise your topic. This issue gets so little attention! Of course, this has all been known and circulated to people who wish to be informed, but the majority are "Amurkins" who are exactly as you describe. They put blind faith that our leaders will not let our society crumble.

My first glimpse into this was The Grand Chessboard by Brzenkski (sp). This foray into Asia was a certainty, it was just a question of when and how. The world needs to unite to solve this, but it seems determined to use the crisis for a power struggle i.e. last one standing wins. I have a 2 y.o. daughter, and I am certain she won't be driving a gasoline car as we know it today. SOmething big must happen, but it won't, because many people are too dam placid and ignorant to such things on a grand scale
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
24. In a word: CONSUMPTION
I think this is article posits from an erroneous assumption: that the truth won't sink in.

People need to know this and to learn that the REAL culprit here is consumption.

We MAKE too much crap that uses fossil fuels. We BUY too much crap that uses fossil fuels. We DRIVE too much and in vehicles that consume too much fossil fuel.

People need an education and FAST about cutting consumption.

Instead, these "leaders" seem to think the answer is in killing people off and destroying the planet in their wake, to get to the remaining supplies.

If they are so damned concerned about it, we would be drastically curtailing the use of fossil fuels in manufacturing of anything that is not essential. The GREED that drives the economy is what is killing us here--people buying all of the cheap junk that is made in China and sold at Wal-Mart.

We need to get back to a simpler style of life, closer to the earth, and without all of the material things that everything thinks they need.

Look around you and see how much junk you own that you never use, never needed, and that has wasted precious resources. Why is it there? Why do you have it? Because you have been told to go out and SHOP, that's why!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
25. Obvious critical flaw in your reasoning
"Yep, now… imagine the entire population of this country turning on it’s own resources to sustain themselves."

We're talking about peak oil, not the sudden disappearance of all oil.

So, the whole country goes to cutting wood to heat? wrong, it just costs more. And what about natural gas? when does that peak? What about bio? Ethanol?

What about plastic over windows? What about coats?

There would be changes but it would be trends, not some instant catastrophy.

Sorry Chicken Little, the sky ain't fallin', and neither am I.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. I'm not talking about a wholesale change right now
I'm talking about obvious, unnecessary WASTE.

For example, do we NEED plastic bags for our groceries? Why do they even make these?

Do we NEED plastic lawn chairs?

Do we NEED plastic car parts?

Do we NEED pantyhose?

Do we HAVE to package in PLASTIC containers?

Etc., etc., etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maxsmom Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Mental meltdown
Yeah, I know what you mean. When the concept of Peak Oil first hit me, I went into a mental meltdown. I took a good hard look at my surroundings and became physically ill. We have so much unnecessary "stuff" that we just "have to have." Why? Because we can! I started pitching things, left and right. Just started throwing things away, like that was going to change anything. I thought my husband was going to commit me. I was so angry and so sad to have to face that we've been had, big time. We've made a lot of people a lot of money by being consumers of things that have absolutely no real value when all is said and done. We played right into their hands. They sold us a dream and we bought it. And now, the dream may be about to turn into a nightmare!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maxsmom Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Let's look at your statements
"We're talking about peak oil, not the sudden disappearance of all oil."
Peak means we've reached the point that half of all known oil has been depleted. Oil is a finite product. Once you've used half, it's only a matter of time before you've depleted the other half also.

"It just costs more."
How much more? Can we live with $4 a gallon? $8 a gallon? $15 a gallon? Sure, it's just money, right? Wrong. The price of this particular resource is tied to EVERY aspect of civilized life. It's not just the price of oil that goes up, but the price of EVERYTHING that we use (medicines, plastics, manufacturing, transportation, clothing, food, etc., etc. That, in turn, affects jobs. Without jobs we don't have money, and without money we don't survive. Oh, and please don't count on government social programs because they're systematically being done away with by our fearless leaders. Think about the impact on the lives of just the American people once the government money is gone. And, it's going quickly.

"...trends, not some instant catastrophy." (sic)
How instant is instant? Is it ok with you if it happens in the course of the next 5 years? How about 10? Say we're really lucky and we are able to make it another 30 years? Maybe some of us will be lucky enough to not be around to see it. Our children aren't going to be so fortunate.

"Chicken Little . . ."
Please don't shoot the messenger. And I repeat, just because you don't think it can happen doesn't mean it can't happen. Just because you don't want it to be true doesn't make it not true. Just because it's never been part of your reality up to this point doesn't mean it's not going to become part of your reality at some point.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Ummm.... that part was explained.
It's not the disappearance of oil that's the problem... it's the difference between supply and demand collapsing the markets.

How do we GET the oil?

It is shipped, which uses...

Oil.

When the price of shipping oil is too high for the consumers to pay for it - it'll slow even more.

This will run businesses into the ground, there will be very little employment, and very few people who could afford anything at all.

Without the ability to pay for oil, what would you do?

Chop wood.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
26. Great post. Kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robicat Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
30. I think you give them too much credit.....
The Iraq invasion is rather obvious if you look at oil reserves to consumption. The first big geo-political question is about who is going to sell China energy. With Europe locking in Iraq to solid contracts they had the inside running - the only option for the USA is to collapse Iraq's sovereignty to void these deals.

If they hadn't done this in forty years Europe would eclipse the USA as the world's superpower. And this is after all the American century. Europe has had her turn and is supposed to watch elegantly from teh sidelines. This accounts for the militarization of the middle east by the USA. The entry of Turkey and former Soviet states into the EU was a real threat to US interests. The EU could conceivably become a European/Arab Union through slow expansion east-wood, or the EU could sponsor an allied Arab super state.

The big risk to the US is that if hegemony was lost it would be out in the cold energy wise - having to buy it in from Europe and the Arabs: in competition economically from an emerging North Asia and a growing SE Asia. The risk would be that the oil empire would go the way of the Spanish gold empire.

The key to understanding this is to understand that Europe and the USA are in economic competition. The Iraq invasion has been a trial of strength with Russia, France and Germany. It is a conflict that still has not been completed, and where Great Britain is king maker. The UN (read EU) will only bail the USA out of the Iraq mess at a cost. That cost will be an independent Iraq (read European aligned Iraq).

This I think is why I think it has been US policy to destabilize the middle east and support the development of Islamic extremism in the region - ironically the very reason pacifying Iraq is proving so difficult. Nonetheless it creates the right sort of foe to fight, and one that is harder for Europe to support diplomatically. Remember it was the US that replaced the Shar with the Ayatollahs, and the US that created the Afghanistan Arabs.

This long term energy conflict between Europe and the USA is ultimately why France and Russia opposed the US in the invasion. The UN has known that Iraq was disarmed from the mid-90s. The US knew as well - that is why Iraq was invaded because it was disarmed. This conflict was never about WMD - the CIA and Mossad are just not that dumb.

As an aside September 11 was either this administrations lucky break or something more sinister. If you buy that nutjob ragheads who learnt to fly on puddle-jumpers in Florida, men armed with with packing knives and bravado, could sail airplanes through the most heavily surveiled airspace on the planet and bang straight into some very significant landmarks in your country, good luck to you. Stranger things have happened in history but not many. Remember no S-11 no Patriot Act, and no limited war footing. And no barbaric enemy to go and civilize.

I think you are right DR Eldrich. They gotta be doing all this from a saviour position. Stealing an election in the US of A? That takes more than evil. That takes faith. The oil men are tough enough to do it and will make a bucket-load of cash in the process. Democracy is a luxury, when you gotta save the world - or at least your place in it. All those citizens who need oil to run their air conditioning, and cable TV's through the great tribulation before Jesus returns.

Of course the problem with ALL these equations is that if ANYBODY sells China and India as much energy as they want we are going to have global warming flip over the point of no return. That is where the Amazon forests die and actually start emitting CO2 into the atmosphere, and Bangladesh disappears. Here in Australia we are hearing about this every second day on MSM - bet Foxx and CNN ain't covering it. Oil is not going to be the main game in twenty years time. Water to produce grain will be. Oil can be replaced with nuclear power or new technologies. Water cant.

Any-hows. This is not the time in history to have oil barons running your country. You need nice safe liberals with broad vision, who are going to be able to convince the world to find other energy sources and who are going to be able to convince us Lefty's that nuclear energy on a massive worldwide scale is the only bridge we have to a sustainable future. You will need a visionary leaders who will understand the hows wheres and whys of water and the environment. Because ultimately water means food.

You people have to get rid of this government - either in the next month or in four years time. God I hope four years is not too long. And in the mean time your blue (sane) states and your city's are going to have to embrace the Kyoto agreement, and really put it to your government to take the hit to growth and jobs for the sake of the future which is already upon us. It's the environment stupid!, and a-Rab's know how to live in the desert better than you or I.

FFS I cannot believe people in Florida are voting for this administration whilst hurricane after hurricane hits their coast. I suppose all those Dixiecrats can at least enjoy air-con and cable TV,
to watch Bangladesh go under and Pacific Islands disappear. I fucking hope they go under first.

BTW and as an aside the fear of A China/Japan/Korea prosperity pact fueled by energy controlled by the EU that controlled Iraqi and Caspian oil (along with Russia's massive natural gas reserves}, accounts for the USA's rather bizarre North Korea policy - which seems designed to keep North Korea destabilized and a threat.

What do you call it around here - a tin foil hat - well mine is firmly on my pointy head. If you don't believe me goggle on John Titor. he is the man who knows.

Here ends the rant.

:tinfoilhat

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Very nice piece!
I'd expound but time is short today.

Thank you for your insights.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. What I find so bizarre is no one will talk about
population control. Bush has gutted the budget to provide women's health services (i.e. birth control) to the 3rd world. Organized religion is a big part of this problem too, with their "every sperm is sacred" crap. I get so infuriated by this wholesale denial.:mad:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truehawk Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
31. BULLSHIT If we had continued the research started by Carter
We would be energy independant NOW!!

As soon as Reagan took office he nixed the 5 GW Space Solar Power Satallite, by saying we could not use the copper irridium solar collectors developed for it, but had to assume we would use the silicon cells which were 10 times as heavy and which loose efficency and have to be annealed.

When Bush II took office I was working for FORD and in March they laid off me and a whole slew of people they had from Lucent to work on their green car iniative, because the auto makers no longer had to worry about higher mileage standards.

Get the picture???

We have a hundred years of experience, and a trillion dollars, including Navy research funding to Standard Oil before WW II to develop platforming (which SO gave to IG Farben, which was the NAZI goverment, not to us by the way) of infastructure in oil.

I havn't seen 10 billion spent developing solar cells and putting them into production.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
32. Yes, of course the time of "Peak Oil"
is coming...
Along with the polar ice caps vanishing.
We have huge catatastrophic hills to climb if we expect to sustain life on this planet for our children's children.

But, to say, Bush is trying to save us, c'mon now!!

We need progressive, intelligent liberals facing the real problems of our country and our planet.
Don't you remember Bush's answer to any important interview, when asked about invading Iraq: "I don't know, we'll all be dead".

B*sh doesn't have the IQ to run this country, obviously, he couldn't run his state, he couldn't run his corporation, and he couldn't even run his own household.

B*SH is the character Chauncey Gardener from the movie "Being There".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. "B*SH is the character Chauncey Gardener from the movie "Being There"."
HAHAHA... oh, thank you! Very true.

While I agree we are soon going to face peak oil, I think we can pull out of it if only we desire to.


The problem with the average consumerican is that they feel entitled to drive gas hog SUVs and whatnot. It gives them status, or so they think. Especially in the Bullsh supporter camp, they feel it's their freedom and right to poison themselves. Which I would not mind so much, except they want to take us out too it would seem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
34. But we finally got smart.
Edited on Thu Nov-18-04 10:48 AM by Gregorian
We invented tags that were imbedded into the items in the stores. Then when they walked out, an alarm went off. And that's what we have to do in order to keep our national thiefs in check. We have to find out what we've just found out, and then design a way to keep them from doing it. The rest of the world is in on this. Not just us. They are stealing from everyone.

And the war is actually about controlling the oil. Not the oil itself. We owe so much money to the Chinese and Japanese, etc., that if they were to have control over the oil, we would fold.

And I apologize for not reading your entire post. I'm bleary eyed, and still hardly awake. After hearing the author discuss his book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman", I'm still reeling. I'm stunned. I don't think we (the smart half of America) can do this alone. It's going to take the help of the world. That book appears to explain it all.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue May 07th 2024, 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC