Election Reform New York Style! Kick and Recommend!

[Bill Bored]

Watch and LEARN people! This is how REAL Democrats behave!

<http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/longisland/ny-lilevy164894117sep16,0,3152818.story?coll=ny-linews-print>

Levy won't pull lever voting booths
BY MARTIN C. EVANS
Newsday Staff Writer

September 16, 2006

Saying that replacing the county's lever-pull voting machines will be costly to taxpayers and potentially confusing to older voters, Suffolk Executive Steve Levy said he is willing to sue the state to block it from forcing the switch.

Levy said state and federal laws written to avoid a repeat of the 2000 voting debacle in Florida encourage localities to buy new voting equipment but do not require it.

"We in Suffolk County should not be inconvenienced or forced to spend millions of our precious taxpayer dollars because counties in Florida had troubles with 'hanging chads,'" Levy wrote in a letter urging Suffolk elections commissioners to oppose new machines.

-snip-

Oh, and don't forget: they can STEAL ELECTIONS with those machines too Steve! But keep up the good work!

In the 2004 General Election, Suffolk County had:
1,038 precincts;
over 600,000 votes cast;
a 0.55% undervote rate for President;
and ZERO machine-related complaints to the EIRS.

Kerry/Edwards won the county by 1%. You can't get any better than that!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

All New Yorkers should support Steve Levy in his fight for democracy and fiscal responsibility! Give that HAVA money to the Katrina victims!

Excelsior!

[Kurovski]

1. You can steal on lever machines too, but it's easier to catch.

It's impossible to catch theft with computerized voting. And what's also great about that (great for the fraudsters, that is) is that you can always say "show me the evidence of theft!" and well, their simply won't be any!

Just super-nifty-keen for those in the election theft business.

K&R!

[Bill Bored]

2. Yada, yada, yada.

Yeah steal on lever machines. Go ahead I dare anyone to try it. Their ass will end up in jail so fast it will make your head spin!

What is needed to prevent that is bi-partisan election administration -- something we have in NY which many other states do not.

Even the Carter-Baker Commission said we need that so where is it?

Instead we just have paper trails that no human being will ever count, if that.

If you want to get rid of levers, you need SERIOUS bi-partisan audits of VVPATs or VVPBs based on the margin of each race, the number of machines or scanners and the minimum number of systems that could change the outcome of each race. You need proper logic and accuracy tests, run in Election Mode. And you need to audit the Ballot Definition Programming before each election.

Anything less is a crap shoot, an experiment, a beta test.

[Febble]

3. "If it ain't broke, don't fix"

Just what I was thinking.

It's not as though there aren't plenty of problems that do.

[Bill Bored]

4. NYers, Just say "No!" to Electronic Vote Counting!

See this thread in the NY forum too:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=169&topic_id=6674&mesg_id=6674

[texpatriot2004]

5. Glad to be the 5th to K&R this thread nt

[HockeyMom]

6. Make this the 6th from a Suffolk County Resident

who has been voting on lever machines since 1968. Nice to know MY vote counted last election.

It has nothing to do with fear (as an older voter) of high tech either. Call it more real life experience from both a personal and professional (husband's Tech Support) stance.

Who wants the fox (Bush & Republicans) guarding the hen house (votes)? Not me.

[DeeDeeNY]

7. One more Suffolk County person

checking in. I add my K & R and will make some calls on Monday.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

8. although I am a VVPB proponent....

Considering the alternatives, I hope this succeeds.

The voting systems each have their own problems.

However the risk quotient with any electronic voting is exponentially
greater than with Lever machines, AFAIK.

With electronic voting, you have a greater number of votes exposed on
one machine.
With lever, you have what - 999 votes per machine?

And everyone knows the capacity of levers, but frankly, there are no
federal standards regarding capacity on voting systems.

Alot of election officials don't know the capacity of their machines,
and we end up with the subtracting tabulators etc.

Could someone rig the lever machines to change just one vote per machine?

That would mean 1 out of every 999 votes could be switched.

It could be possible.

How do you check to prevent that?

Let me close in saying how glad I am that Connecticut and New York
will still be using lever machines at this very crucial mid term election.

[Bill Bored]

11. NY limits each lever to 800 voters

And the paper ballots marked by machines for disabled voters will be hand counted this year.

Rumor has it that CT will have some scanners this year, but will probably do some auditing although not yet required by law.

[Melissa G]

9. Steve Levy Rocks! Good post, BB!! n/t

[GuvWurld]

10. What HAVA passage is Levy relying upon?

Can someone please post an excerpt from HAVA (and a link) that would account for Levy's position about encouragement rather than requirement to buy new machines?

[Bill Bored]

12. Please show me where HAVA says you have to buy anything other than

1 accessible system (such as a ballot marker) per polling place, Guv.

I don't think he's saying not to do that.

On edit though, here's one:

Sect. 301 c:

Construction.--

1. In general.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit a State or jurisdiction which used a particular type of voting system in the elections for Federal office held in November 2000 from using the same type of system after the effective date of this section, so long as the system meets or is modified to meet the requirements of this section.
2. Protection of paper ballot voting systems.--For purposes of subsection (a)(1)(A)(i), the term ``verify'' may not be defined in a manner that makes it impossible for a paper ballot voting system to meet the requirements of such subsection or to be modified to meet such requirements.

And here's another one:

Sect. 301 a 1 B:

A State or jurisdiction that uses a paper ballot voting system, a punch card voting system, or a central count voting system (including mail-in absentee ballots and mail-in ballots), may meet the requirements of subparagraph (A)(iii) by--

1. establishing a voter education program specific to that voting system that notifies each voter of the effect of casting multiple votes for an office; and
2. providing the voter with instructions on how to correct the ballot before it is cast and counted (including instructions on how to correct the error through the issuance of a replacement ballot if the voter was otherwise unable to change the ballot or correct any error).

And your link is:
http://www.eac.gov/law_ext.asp

See, no new voting systems required. Although they are encouraged. :)

[GuvWurld]

13. Right, of course, the requirement is not to purchase but to be accessible

Accessibility requirements can be met in a variety of ways and nobody has to have a machine forced on them. Here in Humboldt County, CA we were ready to go with Vote-PAD for compliance with HAVA accessibility requirements but then SoS McPherson refused to certify it. That left our Registrar and Board of Supes feeling like they were required to buy eSlate because it seemed like the only viable alternative to become compliant. I actually lobbied for non-compliance and got the Supes to spend a half hour of a public meeting discussing it before finally caving in to the threat of a Justice Dept. lawsuit. I blogged it here and the Eureka Reporter also documented it here.

[Bill Bored]

15. Yeah, but even so, it's only one per polling place.

So keep whatever you have and add one ballot marker, or whatever.

What do the non-disabled voters use in Humbolt and what did they vote on pre-HAVA?

You can have a dozen older machines and one ballot marker if you want, as long as the oldies meet Sect. 301 requirements. In the case of punch cards or paper ballots, that just means a voter education program to avoid over votes. In the case of older DREs and Scanners, you've got nothing to lose by upgrading, except money. And you might be able to upgrade to hand counted paper ballots if you can convince officials.

I think the only real requirement for replacing anything is for older DREs and Scanners that don't meet 2002 or Section 301 specs.

[Febble]

16. Do you know

how disabled voters in New York feel about levers? Is there any lobby for DREs?

[Bill Bored]

18. I would characterize the situation as follows:

I can't speak for them, but I don't feel a big push for DREs from them at this time. Initially, I think they were more pro-DRE but I don't believe they are willing to trade reliability for accessibility.

In public hearings I've attended, they had to sit through hours of anti-DRE, pro-paper advocacy and I think they feel that since DREs don't provide all the features of some ballot markers anyway (although NY law does require a pneumatic switch), there isn't much of an advantage to the DREs. The main one is not having to handle the paper ballot with the DRE, but then they might have to handle those voter access cards, which could be a lot harder for some people, depending on their disabilities.

At this point, I think they would be happy with MORE ballot markers, but by the same token, they probably don't like voting on different systems than everyone else. However, NY election law § 7-200 allows 2 different systems to be used in each election, and there is nothing preventing able-bodied voters from using the ballot markers:

"No more than two types of voting machines or systems may be used by any local board of elections at a single election."

So it's perfectly legal to have levers and HCPBs for the disabled with ballot markers. In fact, that's the situation this year, but there is not a ballot marker at every polling place yet.

Here's an article about the primary in NYC:
<http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/14/nyregion/14handicapped.html?_r=1&oref=slogin>

[Wilms]

20. Here's some stuff for ya, Febble.

Survey: Disabled Prefer Absentee Ballots (check out the thread, not only the OP

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=422273


Catskill Center For Independence

Help AmericaVote Act In the News

http://www.ccfi.us/havamain1.html

[Febble]

21. Thanks

I thought that might be the case, but it's worth knowing.

[GuvWurld]

17. Ballot marker is correct

Prior to Humboldt's recent decision to buy eSlate, there were no special accommodations for disabled voters. This state of HAVA non-compliance had a lot to do with the urgency placed on buying eSlate, as mentioned up-thread. But eSlate is not providing a way to count the ballots, only cast them. So there will be a "process" by which eSlate ballots will be duplicated for counting on our Diebold optical scanners.

I've discussed this elsewhere and my position is that the independent act of the disabled voter, using eSlate, is insufficient to result in the vote being counted. To be counted, the disabled voter's eSlate vote must be acted upon by another person doing the duplication. Therefore this should not be considered an independently cast vote and the hybrid eSlate/Diebold system should not be certified as HAVA compliant.

In fact, in CA, there are no counties currently using such a blended system and no such certification exists. According to our Registrar, once we have the eSlate contract details worked out we are expected to submit to the Secretary of State our implementation plan. At that point he will rubber stamp it and it will simply be considered HAVA compliant de facto. If the justice system weren't such a black hole at present, I'd like to see disabled voters bring a lawsuit saying they are being deprived of their rights under HAVA.

[Bill Bored]

19. Hmmm. Does the e-Slate have a VVPAT?

Is it Accessible? CA Law says it has to be Accessible. That means blind voters have to be able to "see" what's on the VVPAT with a scanner. AutoMark does this and so does Populex's marker I believe. So why not use that and hand count? Why are ANY DREs being certified without Accessible VVPATs according to CA law?

[Imagevision]

14. Since 2004 election, so many countries with electronic vote probs...

This is one thing Bush can certainly take credit for, Bush is making this country look like sh*t to the rest of the world... that's too bad, one man!

[annabanana]

22. Nassau Residents.. NOTE:

This open house is MONDAY
Sept 27
NASSAU VOTERS INVITED TO TEST VOTING MACHINES. Tomorrow, Nassau voters are invited to test and compare new electronic voting machines being considered by the county Board of Elections as replacements for the old lever-style machines. The board is holding an open house from 3 to 8 p.m. at the Cradle of Aviation Museum in East Garden City, to seek citizens' input on 13 different voting machines submitted to the state for approval, Democratic Elections Commissioner William Biamonte said. The state is under pressure from the federal government to modernized equipment and improve access for disabled voters. Counties will select machines from a list approved by the state. Visitors will be asked to complete a questionnaire on their choice. - CELESTE HADRICK

[Wilms]

23. From the OP.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

All New Yorkers should support Steve Levy in his fight for democracy and fiscal responsibility! Give that HAVA money to the Katrina victims!

Excelsior!"